Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Jogchum Reitsma]

Hi Harm

(Hmm,  or Thomas?)

Op 08-10-18 om 23:52 schreef Thomas Morley:

Am Mo., 8. Okt. 2018 um 12:28 Uhr schrieb Jogchum Reitsma :
<...> 

Well, if you change 'Staff' to 'Score' in the line
 \temporary \override Staff.TimeSignature.stencil =
then the new stencil is always printed without the need to repeat it
in every Staff.

Though, I have my doubts that's really what you want.
I would recommend not to change the code but to \omit the
TimeSignature in every Staff, where you don't want it:
<<
   \new Staff
 {
   r2 r
   \time ##f 3/4
   r4 r r
 }
   \new Staff \with { \omit TimeSignature }
 {
   r2 r
   r4 r r
 }
This second suggestion does the trick: no need to repeat the code for 
each staff, and it it printed only above the upper (soprano, in this 
case) staff. Thanks a lot!

If you omit the Y-offset-override from the original example the
TimeSignature is printed in Staff as usual.
Though, Orff prints it above, afaik.
With my original coding there is a lot of space below the TimeSignature.
It could be removed or at least reduced if the dimensions of the
TimeSignature-stencil would be adjusted.
But I simply don't know how changes of TimeSignatures are dealed with
in this edition of the Carmina Burana.
Can you link to some online-images of line-breaking TimeSignatures?



I had figured that out already, thanks. Orff, and also Daan Manneke in 
his "Psaume 121" print the time signatures above the staff,  Manneke 
printing only the numerator, not the quarter note as denominator.





Cheers,
   Harm


regards, Jogchum


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Thomas Morley]

Am Mo., 8. Okt. 2018 um 12:28 Uhr schrieb Jogchum Reitsma :
>
> Op 06-09-18 om 09:43 schreef Thomas Morley:
> > 2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma :
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
> >> time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
> >> the staff, but above it.
> >>
> >> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing 
> >> "time
> >> 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65
> >>
> >>
> >> regards, Jogchum Reitsma
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> lilypond-user mailing list
> >> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> > This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
> > My own coding here:
> > https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763
> >
> > HTH,
> >Harm
> >
> Hi Thomas,
>
> I downloaded the code you referred to in your answer above, and it works
> like a charm, thanks!
> But there are still a few changes that would be nice to have in it. Or,
> also quite possible, they are already there, but I don't know how to use it.
>
> If I want for example a 3/4 bar, I write
>
>\time ##f 3/4
>
> and the result is fine. But when issuing this in a 4-part vocal piece, I
> have to repeat that for every voice, and the 3/4 symbol is printed above
> each staff. Repeating the entry is of course no problem, but the fact
> that the result is printed above each staff gives a somewhat messy output.
>
> I'm for now not able to alter the code myself, but is it possible to
> avoid this effect?
>
> regards, Jogchum
>

Well, if you change 'Staff' to 'Score' in the line
\temporary \override Staff.TimeSignature.stencil =
then the new stencil is always printed without the need to repeat it
in every Staff.

Though, I have my doubts that's really what you want.
I would recommend not to change the code but to \omit the
TimeSignature in every Staff, where you don't want it:
<<
  \new Staff
{
  r2 r
  \time ##f 3/4
  r4 r r
}
  \new Staff \with { \omit TimeSignature }
{
  r2 r
  r4 r r
}
>>

If you omit the Y-offset-override from the original example the
TimeSignature is printed in Staff as usual.
Though, Orff prints it above, afaik.
With my original coding there is a lot of space below the TimeSignature.
It could be removed or at least reduced if the dimensions of the
TimeSignature-stencil would be adjusted.
But I simply don't know how changes of TimeSignatures are dealed with
in this edition of the Carmina Burana.
Can you link to some online-images of line-breaking TimeSignatures?


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Jogchum Reitsma]

Op 06-09-18 om 09:43 schreef Thomas Morley:

2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma :

Hi,

The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
the staff, but above it.

Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65


regards, Jogchum Reitsma


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This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
My own coding here:
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763

HTH,
   Harm


Hi Thomas,

I downloaded the code you referred to in your answer above, and it works 
like a charm, thanks!
But there are still a few changes that would be nice to have in it. Or, 
also quite possible, they are already there, but I don't know how to use it.


If I want for example a 3/4 bar, I write

  \time ##f 3/4

and the result is fine. But when issuing this in a 4-part vocal piece, I 
have to repeat that for every voice, and the 3/4 symbol is printed above 
each staff. Repeating the entry is of course no problem, but the fact 
that the result is printed above each staff gives a somewhat messy output.


I'm for now not able to alter the code myself, but is it possible to 
avoid this effect?


regards, Jogchum


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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Hans Åberg]

That is the lesser form. Sorry, the joke markup dropped out.


> On 6 Sep 2018, at 16:25, shane  wrote:
> 
> Cease and desist. And yes copyright here is a farce at this point. But don't 
> get afoul of the owners of the copyright. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Hans Åberg 
> Date: 9/6/18 8:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: David Kastrup 
> Cc: lilypond-user Mailinglist 
> Subject: Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana
> 
> 
> > On 6 Sep 2018, at 10:49, David Kastrup  wrote:
> > 
> > Hans Åberg  writes:
> > 
> >>> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far –
> >>> sorry.  A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you
> >>> cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless
> >>> whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever
> >>> you want in your house, so to speak.
> >> 
> >> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
> >> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
> >> merely to take it down.
> > 
> > That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease
> > notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
> > statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
> > estimated) is the non-nice way.
> > 
> > It depends on jurisdictions, public relations, the size and workload of
> > the respective legal department which of those options (and/or others)
> > will be chosen.  Also on whether the legal department is budgeted in a
> > manner where it is supposed to contribute to its salaries.
> 
> In the US, some copyright holders don't know much about it except that it is 
> something that helps them making money, so in the absence of legal checks, 
> they can set their legal department to write something forceful, like a 
> Disease and Cease to Exist letter.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Simon Albrecht]

On 06.09.2018 10:49, David Kastrup wrote:

In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
merely to take it down.

That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease
notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
estimated) is the non-nice way.


Which reminds me that this very piece, namely the opening chorus ‘O 
Fortuna’, is said to form a major/considerable portion of Schott’s 
revenue, and that they have been keen to squeeze that out: It is told 
that, when Michael Jackson used it in a concert tour without permission, 
they waited till the concert tour was over and then sued, thus 
maximising the amount they got.


Best, Simon

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Sep 2018, at 10:49, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
>>> 
>>> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far –
>>> sorry.  A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you
>>> cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless
>>> whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever
>>> you want in your house, so to speak.
>> 
>> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
>> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
>> merely to take it down.
> 
> That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease
> notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
> statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
> estimated) is the non-nice way.
> 
> It depends on jurisdictions, public relations, the size and workload of
> the respective legal department which of those options (and/or others)
> will be chosen.  Also on whether the legal department is budgeted in a
> manner where it is supposed to contribute to its salaries.

In the US, some copyright holders don't know much about it except that it is 
something that helps them making money, so in the absence of legal checks, they 
can set their legal department to write something forceful, like a Disease and 
Cease to Exist letter.



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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Jogchum Reitsma]

Op 06-09-18 om 09:43 schreef Thomas Morley:

2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma :

Hi,

The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
the staff, but above it.

Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65


regards, Jogchum Reitsma


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This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
My own coding here:
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763

HTH,
   Harm


Hi Thomas,

Seems magnificent! Thanks a lot!

regards, Jogchum




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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Jogchum Reitsma]

Op 05-09-18 om 15:40 schreef Simon Albrecht:

On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana 
states a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that 
is noted not on the staff, but above it. 


PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright 
worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.

Best, Simon

Hi Simon,

Thanks for your warning, but I'm not going to redistribute it in 
whatever form, it is pure for personal use, so I think there's no 
problem. As you yourself and others already stated in previous anwers to 
your remark.

But your attention is appreciated!

regrads, Jogchum




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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[David Kastrup]

Hans Åberg  writes:

>> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
>> 
>> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far –
>> sorry.  A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you
>> cannot give it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless
>> whether parts of that may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever
>> you want in your house, so to speak.
>
> In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put
> it up on the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking
> merely to take it down.

That's the nice way of dealing with that situation.  A Cease
notice with lawyer fees attached is the neutral way.  Suing for
statutory and/or estimated damages (based on download numbers, possibly
estimated) is the non-nice way.

It depends on jurisdictions, public relations, the size and workload of
the respective legal department which of those options (and/or others)
will be chosen.  Also on whether the legal department is budgeted in a
manner where it is supposed to contribute to its salaries.

In short: it's not a good plan to rely on any particular kind of
response.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Sep 2018, at 03:07, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
> 
> of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far – sorry.
> A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you cannot give it to 
> anybody or use it for performing, regardless whether parts of that may not be 
> enforcible. But you can do whatever you want in your house, so to speak.

In fact, a few years ago, a guy engraved the very same piece and put it up on 
the net, and got a notice from the copyright holder asking merely to take it 
down.



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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Thomas Morley]

2018-09-05 11:15 GMT+02:00 Jogchum Reitsma :
> Hi,
>
> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states a
> time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted not on
> the staff, but above it.
>
> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing "time
> 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65
>
>
> regards, Jogchum Reitsma
>
>
> ___
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This was discussed in the german forum a while back.
My own coding here:
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,2127.msg11763.html#msg11763

HTH,
  Harm

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Simon Albrecht]

Hi Andrew and David,

of course you are right, I misrepresented that and went too far – sorry.
A reengraving is no different from a photocopy in that you cannot give 
it to anybody or use it for performing, regardless whether parts of that 
may not be enforcible. But you can do whatever you want in your house, 
so to speak.


Best, Simon

On 05.09.2018 16:13, Andrew Bernard wrote:

Hi Simon,

That's not illegal at all anywhere in the world just so that other 
list members don't get the wrong impression. Selling multiple copies, 
i.e., making a derivative work, without permission or licence from the 
copyright holder would be. Similar to photocopying of complete works 
for study purposes.


a


On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 23:40, Simon Albrecht > wrote:



PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under
copyright
worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.



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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Simon,

That's not illegal at all anywhere in the world just so that other list
members don't get the wrong impression. Selling multiple copies, i.e.,
making a derivative work, without permission or licence from the copyright
holder would be. Similar to photocopying of complete works for study
purposes.

a


On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 23:40, Simon Albrecht  wrote:

>
> PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright
> worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.
>
>
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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[David Kastrup]

Simon Albrecht  writes:

> On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
>> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana
>> states a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that
>> is noted not on the staff, but above it. 
>
> PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright
> worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.

Uh, no?  _Redistributing_ typesettings of it may be, but what kind of
material you create for yourself from legally acquired copies is usually
entirely your own business in typical jurisdictions.

It's certainly not the typesetting that is problematic.  It just may
have less uses (without getting appropriate license) than one would wish
for.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Simon Albrecht]

On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states 
a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted 
not on the staff, but above it. 


PS. I’d like to just mention that Carl Orff’s music is under copyright 
worldwide and retypesetting his music is illegal.

Best, Simon

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[Simon Albrecht]

To elaborate a little on David’s response:

On 05.09.2018 11:15, Jogchum Reitsma wrote:
The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states 
a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted 
not on the staff, but above it.


This would be replicated in LilyPond by \omit Staff.TimeSignature and 
creating custom markups for the time signatures, either as \mark or 
inside a special context (for example using the method in 
http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=1010).


Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing 
"time 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65 


This is because a duration isn’t the same as any number to LilyPond; 
specifically the \time command expects to be given a fraction (of 
numbers) (that is then internally represented as a Scheme pair). 
Technically, this would be 4/(1/2) in your case, but that isn’t 
supported by Lily, so you have to use 8/1. I have to say, it would be 
kind of cool to write


\version "2.19.82"
{ \time #'(4 . 1/2) \breve \breve \longa }

but that’s not how it works ;-)

Best, Simon

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Re: Defining 4 \breve time in Carmina Burana

[David Kastrup]

Jogchum Reitsma  writes:

> Hi,
>
> The first bar of part 5: Ecce gratum, from Orff's Camina Burana states
> a time of 4 \breve notes. In the Schott-edition I have, that is noted
> not on the staff, but above it.
>
> Is there a possiblility in Lilypond to define that time? Simpy issuing
> "time 4/\breve" gives an error message in version 2.19.65

Well, you can fudge your own stuff, like

\new Staff
{
  \tweak stencil #(lambda (grob)
   (grob-interpret-markup grob
#{ \markup \vcenter \fraction \number "4" \note { \breve } 
#UP #}))
  \time 8/1
  c'\breve \breve \breve \breve
}

Basically, provide your own visuals.

-- 
David Kastrup

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