Re: Harmonic reduction
Well, maybe I'm the music shop assistant who works as a part-time electronics technician and pipes-up, 'Sounds like you need a spectrum analyzer, sometimes known as a grahpical EQ'. J. On 6/22/20 00:59, Lukas-Fabian Moser wrote: > Hi Urs, > >>> Also, Schönberg gave (in his Harmonielehre) funny examples of >>> "impossible" sonorities taken from Bach's Motetten by just stopping >>> the >>> music at the right (or wrong?) time, together with equally funny >>> jibes >>> against the "aestheticians", or from Mozart's symphonies (also >>> attached). >>> >>> >>> Maybe all I'm saying here is that any such automated tool for >>> "musical >>> analysis" would have to be highly configurable. >> Very valid points, indeed. However, it seems I'm persistently not >> making myself clear. >> I'm not looking for musical interpretation/analysis, just for a >> visualization of what is sounding at the same time, to get a visual >> idea about the harmonies resulting from polyphonic settings. > > Well yes, that's what your example conveyed. I think I tried to > dispute the meaningfulness of such a visualization, since depending on > the compositional techniques used, such a representation is very > likely cluttered with all sorts of dissonant notes that the > "knowledgeable ear" integrates into higher-order structures. > > But of course you know all of this, and I should just assume that you > have good reasons for wanting to have what you described and gave an > example for. Maybe I'm behaving like the music shop assistant who some > years ago, when I asked for an electric tuning device with a special > feature (ability to display the deviation from equal-temperament _in > cents_), just looked at me knowingly and said: "Oh, but you don't need > this." :-) > > Best > Lukas > > -- University of Hawaii, Maui College / Mobile 760.840.8660
Re: Harmonic reduction
Hi Urs, Also, Schönberg gave (in his Harmonielehre) funny examples of "impossible" sonorities taken from Bach's Motetten by just stopping the music at the right (or wrong?) time, together with equally funny jibes against the "aestheticians", or from Mozart's symphonies (also attached). Maybe all I'm saying here is that any such automated tool for "musical analysis" would have to be highly configurable. Very valid points, indeed. However, it seems I'm persistently not making myself clear. I'm not looking for musical interpretation/analysis, just for a visualization of what is sounding at the same time, to get a visual idea about the harmonies resulting from polyphonic settings. Well yes, that's what your example conveyed. I think I tried to dispute the meaningfulness of such a visualization, since depending on the compositional techniques used, such a representation is very likely cluttered with all sorts of dissonant notes that the "knowledgeable ear" integrates into higher-order structures. But of course you know all of this, and I should just assume that you have good reasons for wanting to have what you described and gave an example for. Maybe I'm behaving like the music shop assistant who some years ago, when I asked for an electric tuning device with a special feature (ability to display the deviation from equal-temperament _in cents_), just looked at me knowingly and said: "Oh, but you don't need this." :-) Best Lukas
Re: Harmonic reduction
Hi Lukas, Am Sonntag, den 21.06.2020, 19:10 +0200 schrieb Lukas-Fabian Moser: > Hi Urs, > > > The use case is the following: The example I attached shows a few > > ways > > to visualize the harmonic structure of (dodecaphonic) polyphonic > > music. > > But I would like to have this as a kind of live preview when > > working > > out counterpoints (with students). Therefore I don't need an > > analysis > > toolkit like Humdrum. Although: There actually might be tools to > > analyze the resulting MIDI files from a LilyPond compilation, and > > it > > would be possible to write a script that takes the Humdrum output > > to > > generate some LilyPond code that is then compiled. Hm, while > > writing > > the previous sentence this looks like an intriguing idea, but it's > > way > > too short for being able to use that on Wednesday :-( > > But I think it would be desirable to avoid using MIDI as an > intermediate > step at all costs: For, as far as I know, MIDI only knows > "chromatic" > pitches and has no way of distinguishing enharmonic equivalents. Oh, that's a good point. Probably a major reason why the "keyscapes" I created look only partially convincing. I'll redo these after converting the Midi files to Humdrum (which seems reasonably possible with two very short songs). > > This might be sort-of acceptable for dodecaphonic music (I tend to > disagree: Dodecaphonic music has always been written by composers > with a > strong background in classical diatonic theory, and it should not be > taken for granted that they just tossed a coin when deciding on the > enharmonic spelling of a given pitch), but it's obviously a no-go > for > pieces governed by classical tonality. > > > Moreover, your initial example manifestly exhibits what is known as > the > "segmentation problem" in many flavours of musical analysis: Which > notes > are to be grouped together in ordner to obtain a meaningful analysis > of > harmony/voice leading/etc.? > > For instance, it's quite hard to (algorithmically) decide which notes > in > the attached Chopin are to be considered when analysing "the > harmonic > progression" of the piece - except of course if you claim > (erroneously, > I think) that "harmony" only lives in the lower staff here. > > As another example, there's the famous bar in the first prelude of > the > Well-Tempered Clavier (see attachmend) where, for the first (and > basically only) time in the piece, squashing all the pitches in a > given > bar together does not yield a meaningful chord. (And in fact, there > is > some debate on which pitch should be considered as part of the > underlying chord here: Many people say b, but there a strong reasons > to > instead consider the c as a chord tone instead, hence regarding the > harmony as a 43 instead of a 642.) > > Also, Schönberg gave (in his Harmonielehre) funny examples of > "impossible" sonorities taken from Bach's Motetten by just stopping > the > music at the right (or wrong?) time, together with equally funny > jibes > against the "aestheticians", or from Mozart's symphonies (also > attached). > > > Maybe all I'm saying here is that any such automated tool for > "musical > analysis" would have to be highly configurable. Very valid points, indeed. However, it seems I'm persistently not making myself clear. I'm not looking for musical interpretation/analysis, just for a visualization of what is sounding at the same time, to get a visual idea about the harmonies resulting from polyphonic settings. Urs > > Lukas >
Re: Harmonic reduction
Hi Kevin,
thank you for this recommendation. Actually I will talk about Humdrum
(a little bit) in a presentation on Wednesday ;-) but it is definitely
not what I'm looking for here. (BTW it (at least some of the tools?)
also consumes MIDI files, so there's a direct path from LilyPond to
Humdrum.
The use case is the following: The example I attached shows a few ways
to visualize the harmonic structure of (dodecaphonic) polyphonic music.
But I would like to have this as a kind of live preview when working
out counterpoints (with students). Therefore I don't need an analysis
toolkit like Humdrum. Although: There actually might be tools to
analyze the resulting MIDI files from a LilyPond compilation, and it
would be possible to write a script that takes the Humdrum output to
generate some LilyPond code that is then compiled. Hm, while writing
the previous sentence this looks like an intriguing idea, but it's way
too short for being able to use that on Wednesday :-(
BestUrs
Am Sonntag, den 21.06.2020, 09:46 +0100 schrieb Kevin Barry:
> Hi Urs,
>
> I'm not aware of any such tools for LilyPond, but there is a format,
> "**kern", that is used in music analysis and research. I don't know
> if
> it can do what you want, but it is designed to be friendly to any
> tools
> that can process plain text. You can find out more about it here:
> https://www.humdrum.org/index.html
> There is a whole toolkit for analysing files in that format.
>
> Kevin
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:42:01AM +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > did anyone so far create a tool for an automatic harmonic reduction
> > of
> > polyphonic music?
> >
> > Attached you'll find one way how that could look like done
> > manually.
> >
> > The task would be to
> >
> > * read an arbitrary number of voices (music expressions)
> > * determine the moments where "something" happens (note/rest)
> > * calculate the chords for each of these steps
> > * construct the corresponding music
> > * a) at the absolute pitches
> > * b) squashed into one of two ranges (all notes within one
> > octave /
> > "closest" setting but in order (this is not in the example))
> >
> > I'm not fixated in *exactly* the output of the example but would
> > like
> > to know if there's something existing in that direction.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Urs
> > \version "2.20.0"
> >
> > %\include "oll-core/package.ily"
> > %\loadPackage notation-fonts
> > %\useNotationFont \with {
> > % extensions = ##t
> > %} arnold
> >
> > \paper {
> > indent = 3\cm
> > system-count = 1
> > }
> >
> > \layout {
> > \context {
> > \Score
> > \accidentalStyle dodecaphonic
> > \override InstrumentName.font-size = #-1
> > }
> > }
> >
> > voice = \relative {
> > r4 r8 cis'4 d c8
> >
> > |
> >
> > c ( fis4. ~ fis8 ) es es f
> > }
> >
> > pianoUp = \relative {
> > \clef bass
> > r8 b, ( a'4 -> ) r8 b, ( g'4 -> )
> >
> > |
> >
> > r8 g ( as,4 g'16-. ) r a,4 ( gis'8 )
> > }
> >
> > pianoDown = \relative {
> > \clef bass
> > r8 g,4 ( gis,16-. ) r r8 a4 ( gis'16-. ) r
> >
> > |
> >
> > r8 a,-. [ a
> > %-\arnoldStrongbeat
> > ( b'16 )] r r4 b
> > }
> >
> > combOneUp = \relative {
> > r4 r8 cis'16 ~ cis ~ cis8 d8 ~ d c16 ~ c
> >
> > |
> >
> > c8 fis ~ fis ~ fis16 ~ fis ~ fis ~ fis es8 ~ es f
> > }
> >
> > combOneDown = \relative {
> > \clef bass
> > r8 8 16 a'' r8 8 ~ ~
> > 16 ~ g'
> >
> > |
> >
> > r8 8 ~ 16 ~ as g' r a,8 ~ ~ > gis'>
> > }
> >
> > combTwo = \relative {
> > r8 8 ~ ^~ 16 ~ ~ cis8
> > 8 ~ ~ 16 ~
> >
> > |
> >
> > c8 ~ 16 ~ ~
> >~ fis 8 ~ ~
> > }
> >
> > rhythm = \relative {
> > r8 d'' d d16 d d8 d d d16 d
> >
> > |
> >
> > d8 d d d16 d d d d8 d d
> > }
> >
> > \score {
> > <<
> > \new Staff \with {
> > instrumentName = "Voice, orig."
> > } \voice
> > \new PianoStaff \with {
> > instrumentName = "Piano, orig."
> > } <<
> > \new Staff \pianoUp
> > \new Staff \pianoDown
> > >>
> > \new PianoStaff \with {
> > instrumentName = "Comb. 1"
> > \omit Stem
> > \omit Flag
> > \omit Beam
> > \omit Rest
> > \omit Dots
> > }
> > <<
> > \new Staff \combOneUp
> > \new Staff \combOneDown
> > >>
> >
> > \new Staff \with {
> >\override StaffSymbol.line-count = 1
> >\autoBeamOff
> >\omit Clef
> >\omit NoteHead
> >\omit Accidental
> > } \rhythm
> > \new Staff \with {
> > instrumentName = "Comb. squashed"
> > \omit Stem
> > \omit Flag
> > \omit Beam
> > \omit Rest
> > \omit Dots
> > } \combTwo
> > >>
> > }
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Harmonic reduction
Hi Urs,
I'm not aware of any such tools for LilyPond, but there is a format,
"**kern", that is used in music analysis and research. I don't know if
it can do what you want, but it is designed to be friendly to any tools
that can process plain text. You can find out more about it here:
https://www.humdrum.org/index.html
There is a whole toolkit for analysing files in that format.
Kevin
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:42:01AM +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> did anyone so far create a tool for an automatic harmonic reduction of
> polyphonic music?
>
> Attached you'll find one way how that could look like done manually.
>
> The task would be to
>
> * read an arbitrary number of voices (music expressions)
> * determine the moments where "something" happens (note/rest)
> * calculate the chords for each of these steps
> * construct the corresponding music
> * a) at the absolute pitches
> * b) squashed into one of two ranges (all notes within one octave /
> "closest" setting but in order (this is not in the example))
>
> I'm not fixated in *exactly* the output of the example but would like
> to know if there's something existing in that direction.
>
> Thanks
> Urs
> \version "2.20.0"
>
> %\include "oll-core/package.ily"
> %\loadPackage notation-fonts
> %\useNotationFont \with {
> % extensions = ##t
> %} arnold
>
> \paper {
> indent = 3\cm
> system-count = 1
> }
>
> \layout {
> \context {
> \Score
> \accidentalStyle dodecaphonic
> \override InstrumentName.font-size = #-1
> }
> }
>
> voice = \relative {
> r4 r8 cis'4 d c8
>
> |
>
> c ( fis4. ~ fis8 ) es es f
> }
>
> pianoUp = \relative {
> \clef bass
> r8 b, ( a'4 -> ) r8 b, ( g'4 -> )
>
> |
>
> r8 g ( as,4 g'16-. ) r a,4 ( gis'8 )
> }
>
> pianoDown = \relative {
> \clef bass
> r8 g,4 ( gis,16-. ) r r8 a4 ( gis'16-. ) r
>
> |
>
> r8 a,-. [ a
> %-\arnoldStrongbeat
> ( b'16 )] r r4 b
> }
>
> combOneUp = \relative {
> r4 r8 cis'16 ~ cis ~ cis8 d8 ~ d c16 ~ c
>
> |
>
> c8 fis ~ fis ~ fis16 ~ fis ~ fis ~ fis es8 ~ es f
> }
>
> combOneDown = \relative {
> \clef bass
> r8 8 16 a'' r8 8 ~ ~ g'>16 ~ g'
>
> |
>
> r8 8 ~ 16 ~ as g' r a,8 ~ ~
> }
>
> combTwo = \relative {
> r8 8 ~ ^~ 16 ~ ~ cis8
> 8 ~ ~ 16 ~
>
> |
>
> c8 ~ 16 ~ ~
>~ fis 8 ~ ~
> }
>
> rhythm = \relative {
> r8 d'' d d16 d d8 d d d16 d
>
> |
>
> d8 d d d16 d d d d8 d d
> }
>
> \score {
> <<
> \new Staff \with {
> instrumentName = "Voice, orig."
> } \voice
> \new PianoStaff \with {
> instrumentName = "Piano, orig."
> } <<
> \new Staff \pianoUp
> \new Staff \pianoDown
> >>
> \new PianoStaff \with {
> instrumentName = "Comb. 1"
> \omit Stem
> \omit Flag
> \omit Beam
> \omit Rest
> \omit Dots
> }
> <<
> \new Staff \combOneUp
> \new Staff \combOneDown
> >>
>
> \new Staff \with {
>\override StaffSymbol.line-count = 1
>\autoBeamOff
>\omit Clef
>\omit NoteHead
>\omit Accidental
> } \rhythm
> \new Staff \with {
> instrumentName = "Comb. squashed"
> \omit Stem
> \omit Flag
> \omit Beam
> \omit Rest
> \omit Dots
> } \combTwo
> >>
> }
>
>
>
