Re: [Spam] Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[David Sumbler]

On Sat, 2017-04-15 at 12:34 +0200, Rutger Hofman wrote:
> On 04/13/2017 03:37 PM, David Sumbler wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 09:19 -0400, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi David,
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > At the moment I cannot really see how to deal with this sort of
> > > > problem, other than having completely separate input for the
> > > > score
> > > > and
> > > > the part at these points, controlled by tags.  But is there a
> > > > better
> > > > way - one which requires less duplication of material in the
> > > > input?
> > > > 
> > > > Any suggestions or pointers to help with this will be
> > > > gratefully
> > > > received!
> > > If you search for ‘divisi’ on the list — and sort in reverse
> > > chronological order (which really should be the default!) —
> > > you’ll
> > > find many related threads, containing lots of hints and tips on
> > > how
> > > to attack this problem (e.g.,  > > lily
> > > pond-user/2016-08/msg00256.html>).
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > Kieren.
> > It does - I simply hadn't thought of searching for "divisi"!  Even
> > after a cursory glance at some of the stuff that that search comes
> > up
> > with, I can see that this is going to be very helpful.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > David
> Yes, this can be accomplished with the divisi engraver (or whatever
> it 
> is called), but I would recommend to use this only in the full
> score, 
> and keep all variants of e.g. Violin I in one part, including 
> first/second half, solo parts etc. From what I have seen, that is 
> customary in professional editions. I have seen a Messiaen Violin I
> part 
> where the divisi is in (uh... what was it... ) 8 or 10 or so solo
> parts, 
> and all were in the same physical Violin I 'part'.
> 
> For winds, this is a different matter. A separate part for each 
> instrument is usual, although sometimes the parts for e.g. the two 
> flutes are combined into one 'part'. I have seen that mostly in
> French 
> editions, FWIW.
> 
> Rutger

I agree with what you say - in the Messiaen example you mention, I
would expect the 8 or 10 divisi Violin 1 lines to be in one physical
part, but probably on 4 or 5 lines - perhaps even 8 or 10.

As an ex-flautist, I would say that the custom of having, say, Flutes 1
and 2 in the same physical part is very useful, so long as each player
has a separate copy of the part.  For flutes, in particular, having 2
players trying to read off the same copy is completely unacceptable
because of the sideways length of the instrument.

In the ballet company for which I mostly worked in the last couple of
decades, I encouraged our arrangers/copyists/typesetters to do the
flute, clarinet, horn etc. parts in this way.  My principle reason for
doing this was that if there is a "dep" (deputy) player owing to
illness or any other reason, they are far less likely to get lost
during a performance if they can see their partner's line of music
above or below their own.  It gives them confidence, resulting in the
likelihood of a better performance than if they are sight-reading a
part with no external references.

David

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Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[David Sumbler]

On Fri, 2017-04-14 at 17:40 -0400, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> > 
> > That thread is now 8 months old, and I wondered what has happened
> > since.
> Unfortunately, not as much as one would hope…
> 
> > 
> > Is some of it yet incorporated into the development version of
> > LilyPond?
> I’d have to look more closely, but my intuition is “yes”.
> 
> > 
> > Is it likely to be included in the eventual LilyPond 2.20?
> I would think so.
> 
> > 
> > What I really want to know is whether it would be worth my while
> > waiting a little longer before embarking on projects where these
> > techniques will be useful (and risking brain damage in the
> > attempt!) -
> > there is no actual hurry in my case.
> My very next engraving project is the one which inspired many of
> these threads — and subsequent feature requests and codebase
> improvements — in 2012 (e.g., http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilyp
> ond-user/2012-12/msg00425.html), and even before.
> 
> If you can wait, I’m going to use that project — a small choral work
> with lots of shared and divisi parts — as a test of the existing
> functionality, an inspiration for some new code and/or feature
> requests, and ultimately a very detailed tutorial on the subject.
> 
> Best,
> Kieren.

At the risk of being thought parasitic, I feel that this is the most
sensible course of (in-)action for me.  I'll hold off doing the piece I
intended to do and set something more straightforward in the mean time.
 My understanding of the workings and usage of LilyPond is vastly
inferior to yours (hence the number of my requests for help on this
list), so I would prefer to wait until things are a little more settled
and documented.  Your "very detailed tutorial" on this new
functionality sounds the very thing that some of us could do with.

None of the pieces I set have any urgency: they are my own
compositions, written between the 1960s and 1990s.  (I have not done
any composing in the last 20 years.)  The project to set these pieces
in LilyPond is simply one of several projects I dreamt up to occupy me
during my retirement, now that I have no day-to-day involvement with
the professional musical world.

If I never reach the end of the project, I'm sure that posterity won't
give a fig!  (And even if it did, the original manuscripts are still in
the drawer.)

David

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Re: [Spam] Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[Rutger Hofman]

On 04/13/2017 03:37 PM, David Sumbler wrote:

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 09:19 -0400, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi David,



At the moment I cannot really see how to deal with this sort of
problem, other than having completely separate input for the score
and
the part at these points, controlled by tags.  But is there a
better
way - one which requires less duplication of material in the input?

Any suggestions or pointers to help with this will be gratefully
received!

If you search for ‘divisi’ on the list — and sort in reverse
chronological order (which really should be the default!) — you’ll
find many related threads, containing lots of hints and tips on how
to attack this problem (e.g., ).

Hope this helps,
Kieren.


It does - I simply hadn't thought of searching for "divisi"!  Even
after a cursory glance at some of the stuff that that search comes up
with, I can see that this is going to be very helpful.

Thanks

David


Yes, this can be accomplished with the divisi engraver (or whatever it 
is called), but I would recommend to use this only in the full score, 
and keep all variants of e.g. Violin I in one part, including 
first/second half, solo parts etc. From what I have seen, that is 
customary in professional editions. I have seen a Messiaen Violin I part 
where the divisi is in (uh... what was it... ) 8 or 10 or so solo parts, 
and all were in the same physical Violin I 'part'.


For winds, this is a different matter. A separate part for each 
instrument is usual, although sometimes the parts for e.g. the two 
flutes are combined into one 'part'. I have seen that mostly in French 
editions, FWIW.


Rutger


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Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> That thread is now 8 months old, and I wondered what has happened since.

Unfortunately, not as much as one would hope…

> Is some of it yet incorporated into the development version of LilyPond?

I’d have to look more closely, but my intuition is “yes”.

> Is it likely to be included in the eventual LilyPond 2.20?

I would think so.

> What I really want to know is whether it would be worth my while
> waiting a little longer before embarking on projects where these
> techniques will be useful (and risking brain damage in the attempt!) -
> there is no actual hurry in my case.

My very next engraving project is the one which inspired many of these threads 
— and subsequent feature requests and codebase improvements — in 2012 (e.g., 
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-12/msg00425.html), and 
even before.

If you can wait, I’m going to use that project — a small choral work with lots 
of shared and divisi parts — as a test of the existing functionality, an 
inspiration for some new code and/or feature requests, and ultimately a very 
detailed tutorial on the subject.

Best,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[David Sumbler]

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 14:37 +0100, David Sumbler wrote:
> On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 09:19 -0400, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> > 
> > Hi David,
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > At the moment I cannot really see how to deal with this sort of
> > > problem, other than having completely separate input for the
> > > score
> > > and
> > > the part at these points, controlled by tags.  But is there a
> > > better
> > > way - one which requires less duplication of material in the
> > > input?
> > > 
> > > Any suggestions or pointers to help with this will be gratefully
> > > received!
> > If you search for ‘divisi’ on the list — and sort in reverse
> > chronological order (which really should be the default!) — you’ll
> > find many related threads, containing lots of hints and tips on how
> > to attack this problem (e.g.,
> > ).
> > 
> > Hope this helps,
> > Kieren.
> It does - I simply hadn't thought of searching for "divisi"!  Even
> after a cursory glance at some of the stuff that that search comes up
> with, I can see that this is going to be very helpful.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> David

I have now read these threads, and in particular the one mentioned in
the quoted material above.

I downloaded and compiled the various files and I am very impressed by
what can be automated using these techniques - just the sort of thing I
was hoping for.  Thank you to those involved in developing this.

That thread is now 8 months old, and I wondered what has happened
since.  I assume that eventually some elements will be built into
LilyPond so that, for instance, the long Context definitions don't need
to be included in source files.

So where are things up to?  Is some of it yet incorporated into the
development version of LilyPond?  Is it likely to be included in the
eventual LilyPond 2.20?

What I really want to know is whether it would be worth my while
waiting a little longer before embarking on projects where these
techniques will be useful (and risking brain damage in the attempt!) -
there is no actual hurry in my case.

David

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Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[David Sumbler]

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 09:19 -0400, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> > 
> > At the moment I cannot really see how to deal with this sort of
> > problem, other than having completely separate input for the score
> > and
> > the part at these points, controlled by tags.  But is there a
> > better
> > way - one which requires less duplication of material in the input?
> > 
> > Any suggestions or pointers to help with this will be gratefully
> > received!
> If you search for ‘divisi’ on the list — and sort in reverse
> chronological order (which really should be the default!) — you’ll
> find many related threads, containing lots of hints and tips on how
> to attack this problem (e.g.,  pond-user/2016-08/msg00256.html>).
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Kieren.

It does - I simply hadn't thought of searching for "divisi"!  Even
after a cursory glance at some of the stuff that that search comes up
with, I can see that this is going to be very helpful.

Thanks

David

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Re: Multiple instruments in score and parts

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> At the moment I cannot really see how to deal with this sort of
> problem, other than having completely separate input for the score and
> the part at these points, controlled by tags.  But is there a better
> way - one which requires less duplication of material in the input?
> 
> Any suggestions or pointers to help with this will be gratefully received!

If you search for ‘divisi’ on the list — and sort in reverse chronological 
order (which really should be the default!) — you’ll find many related threads, 
containing lots of hints and tips on how to attack this problem (e.g., 
).

Hope this helps,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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