Re: Problem with Codas

[Thomas Morley]

2017-09-25 19:22 GMT+02:00 Phil Holmes <m...@philholmes.net>:
> - Original Message - From: "Shamus Hammons" <jlh...@acm.org>
> To: "Carl Sorensen" <c_soren...@byu.edu>; "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org>
> Cc: <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 5:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Problem with Codas
>>
>>
>> Basically, the coda should have some whitespace between it and the prior
>> section of music and should start looking like what you would expect
>> from the beginning of a new staff line, complete with clefs, key
>> signatures and time signatures and whatever other miscellaneous
>> decorations that come with multi-staff layouts. In all, fairly similar
>> to the image that Robert Murdock posted in "I Too Have Problems with
>> Codas". Also, it would be nice to have the coda/segno markings laid out
>> at the appropriate places too (including the top of the coda section),
>> but first things, first. :-)
>
>
>
> There's no requirement for that blank space.  Gould says that it may be
> used, but does not state it should or must be.  Personally, I've never seen
> music set like that.
>
> --
> Phil Holmes

In printed editions I've seen all here mentioned "styles" to print a coda.
Here some results of a very quick online research:


Coda in same line, with space
http://www.finaleblog.de/blog/2015/media/20150811a.png

Coda in same line, without space
http://www.music-mind.com/Music/Srm0077.GIF

Coda next line, here indented
http://blogs.online.berklee.edu/tomrudolph/wp-content/uploads/sites/14/2014/05/Wayfaringall1.png


Lilypond is already able to produce the printed output for second and
third example, but for the first we currently need to do some ugly
hacking. Lilyponds midis can't reproduce any of them, though.

I hope the discussion how codas _should_ be printed is settled now: we
should aim at getting the functionality to reproduce them all,
probably as options, imho. And midi should work, ofcourse.

What else?
Now someone should start coding. Any takers? ;)


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Wols Lists]

On 25/09/17 18:22, Phil Holmes wrote:
> There's no requirement for that blank space.  Gould says that it may be
> used, but does not state it should or must be.  Personally, I've never
> seen music set like that.

Most of the music I've seen is set like that ... (not that codas are
common in what I play.) Different sorts of music, different conventions
(as the people here who see my occasional tantrums will only too readily
agree with! :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Shamus Hammons" <jlh...@acm.org>

To: "Carl Sorensen" <c_soren...@byu.edu>; "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org>
Cc: <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with Codas


Basically, the coda should have some whitespace between it and the prior
section of music and should start looking like what you would expect
from the beginning of a new staff line, complete with clefs, key
signatures and time signatures and whatever other miscellaneous
decorations that come with multi-staff layouts. In all, fairly similar
to the image that Robert Murdock posted in "I Too Have Problems with
Codas". Also, it would be nice to have the coda/segno markings laid out
at the appropriate places too (including the top of the coda section),
but first things, first. :-)



There's no requirement for that blank space.  Gould says that it may be 
used, but does not state it should or must be.  Personally, I've never seen 
music set like that.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: Problem with Codas

[Shamus Hammons]

On 09/20/2017 11:35 AM, Carl Sorensen wrote:
> On 9/19/17 5:33 PM, "David Kastrup"  wrote:
> 
>> Shamus Hammons  writes:
>>
>>> On 09/17/2017 01:50 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
 Carl Sorensen  writes:

> On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:
>
>> I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
>> citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In
>> that
>> day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and
>> Lilypond
>> would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today.
>> :-(
>
> What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?

 \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
  \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
 { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }
>>>
>>> This looks perfectly reasonable to me. :-) How can I help make this
>>> happen?
>>
>> This requires good LilyPond code for formatting the coda, and
>> integration with the repeat structures.  The good formatting code can be
>> done by someone versed in LilyPond/Scheme.
> 
> My original question was not about the input format, but rather about the
> appropriate output formatting for the coda.
> 
> It seems like the reason the original code was "ugly hacks" and didn't
> work was because the formatting problem was very difficult for some corner
> cases.  I was hopping to get Shamus to describe the formatting rules he
> would like to have for codas, because that (not the input structure) is
> where the "automagic  layout" happens.

Basically, the coda should have some whitespace between it and the prior
section of music and should start looking like what you would expect
from the beginning of a new staff line, complete with clefs, key
signatures and time signatures and whatever other miscellaneous
decorations that come with multi-staff layouts. In all, fairly similar
to the image that Robert Murdock posted in "I Too Have Problems with
Codas". Also, it would be nice to have the coda/segno markings laid out
at the appropriate places too (including the top of the coda section),
but first things, first. :-)


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Re: Problem with Codas

[Carl Sorensen]

On 9/19/17 5:33 PM, "David Kastrup"  wrote:

>Shamus Hammons  writes:
>
>> On 09/17/2017 01:50 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
>>> Carl Sorensen  writes:
>>> 
 On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:

> I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
> citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In
>that
> day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and
>Lilypond
> would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today.
>:-(

 What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?
>>> 
>>> \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
>>>  \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
>>> { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }
>>
>> This looks perfectly reasonable to me. :-) How can I help make this
>>happen?
>
>This requires good LilyPond code for formatting the coda, and
>integration with the repeat structures.  The good formatting code can be
>done by someone versed in LilyPond/Scheme.

My original question was not about the input format, but rather about the
appropriate output formatting for the coda.

It seems like the reason the original code was "ugly hacks" and didn't
work was because the formatting problem was very difficult for some corner
cases.  I was hopping to get Shamus to describe the formatting rules he
would like to have for codas, because that (not the input structure) is
where the "automagic  layout" happens.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: Problem with Codas

[David Kastrup]

Shamus Hammons  writes:

> On 09/17/2017 01:50 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Carl Sorensen  writes:
>> 
>>> On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:
>>>
 I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
 citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In that
 day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and Lilypond
 would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today. :-(
>>>
>>> What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?
>> 
>> \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
>>  \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
>> { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }
>
> This looks perfectly reasonable to me. :-) How can I help make this happen?

This requires good LilyPond code for formatting the coda, and
integration with the repeat structures.  The good formatting code can be
done by someone versed in LilyPond/Scheme.  The integration requires
working with the C++ part of LilyPond but has comparatively modest
requirements.  So if the formatting part is solved with whatever syntax,
the integration into \repeat syntax is comparatively light work for
specialists even if not low-hanging.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Shamus Hammons]

On 09/17/2017 01:50 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
> Carl Sorensen  writes:
> 
>> On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:
>>
>>> I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
>>> citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In that
>>> day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and Lilypond
>>> would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today. :-(
>>
>> What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?
> 
> \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
>  \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
> { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }

This looks perfectly reasonable to me. :-) How can I help make this happen?


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Re: Problem with Codas

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 2017-09-18 10:07 PM, Caagr98 wrote:
> On 09/18/17 19:46, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
>> Omitting the coda alternative, this would be the natural way to input
>> repeats of the form “D.S. al Fine”.  I would suggest “\repeat ds” (and
>> “\repeat dc”, unless you want to add magic that recognizes the start of
>> a piece) as the syntax.
> 
> There is already magic that recognizes the start of the piece in volta
> repeat (no start repeat barline), so I don't see how that would be a
> problem.

I’ve got a piece that has the segno at the start, but I suppose an
\override could fix that.  (Of course, this same printing has one piece
with the instruction “D.C. Dal Segno.” where “D.C. al Fine” or “D.S. al
Fine” is almost certainly intended, so taking it as an example might not
be a good idea.)

(Question: if the music continues after the repeat, is that always a
coda, or can “Fine” be followed by more music?)

––Joel C. Salomon

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 2017-09-17 2:50 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
> Carl Sorensen  writes:
>> On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:
>>
>>> I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
>>> citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In that
>>> day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and Lilypond
>>> would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today. :-(
>>
>> What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?
> 
> \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
>  \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
> { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }

(Second try, dealing with the same Thunderbird issue others have mentioned.)

Omitting the coda alternative, this would be the natural way to input
repeats of the form “D.S. al Fine”.  I would suggest “\repeat ds” (and
“\repeat dc”, unless you want to add magic that recognizes the start of
a piece) as the syntax.

––Joel C. Salomon

-- 
––Joel C. Salomon

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Caagr98]

On 09/18/17 19:46, Joel C. Salomon wrote:

Omitting the coda alternative, this would be the natural way to input
repeats of the form “D.S. al Fine”.  I would suggest “\repeat ds” (and
“\repeat dc”, unless you want to add magic that recognizes the start of
a piece) as the syntax.


There is already magic that recognizes the start of the piece in volta 
repeat (no start repeat barline), so I don't see how that would be a 
problem.



––Joel C. Salomon

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 2017-09-17 2:50 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
> Carl Sorensen  writes:
>> On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:
>>
>>> I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
>>> citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In that
>>> day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and Lilypond
>>> would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today. :-(
>>
>> What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?
> 
> \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
>  \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
> { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }

Omitting the coda alternative, this would be the natural way to input
repeats of the form “D.S. al Fine”.  I would suggest “\repeat ds” (and
“\repeat dc”, unless you want to add magic that recognizes the start of
a piece) as the syntax.

––Joel C. Salomon

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Robert (et al.),

> I think codas are formatted like this in most professional music scores.

Lilypond should continue in its tradition of (a) doing things very well, and 
(b) wherever/whenever possible, doing things with incredible flexibility and 
extensibility. Therefore, something along the lines of David K's syntax 
suggestion

> \repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
> \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
> { %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }

would (I think) be best, with switches and parameters and settings as to how 
the layout engine should interpret this graphically.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Problem with Codas

[Robert Murdoch]

I think codas are formatted like this in most professional music scores. 
This example was made in MuseScore.


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Re: Problem with Codas

[David Kastrup]

Carl Sorensen  writes:

> On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:
>
>>I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
>>citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In that
>>day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and Lilypond
>>would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today. :-(
>
> What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?

\repeat coda 2 { %{ segno appears here %} common part }
 \alternative { { %{ coda sign here %} first part }
{ %{ actual coda formatted here %} coda } }


-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Problem with Codas

[Carl Sorensen]

On 9/16/17 8:09 AM, "Shamus Hammons"  wrote:

>I have a dream, that one day Lilypond will make codas first class
>citizens instead of having to exist as a series of ugly hacks. In that
>day, I could simply write \coda (with maybe some options) and Lilypond
>would automagically do the right thing. Alas, that day is not today. :-(

What do you consider the "right thing" to be with a coda?

Thanks,

Carl


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