Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[David Kastrup]

antlists  writes:

> On 19/03/2021 16:43, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>> It's somewhat mitigated by inserting octave checks every so often (say,
>> at the start of every section), so that when it does go wrong, there's a
>> warning, and the problem only propagates up to the next octave check
>> rather than the rest of the piece.
>
> :-)
>
> And Han Wen wrote the original octave check for me! Because I think I
> had exactly the problem Kieren is moaning about - I put a fragment of
> music in a variable, and because it started and finished over a 5th
> apart, I had great difficulty getting the phrase to repeat
> correctly. That was back in the 2.4/2.6 days ...

Ah, so you are at fault that

\relative { c=4 }

is valid music.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[antlists]

On 19/03/2021 16:43, H. S. Teoh wrote:

It's somewhat mitigated by inserting octave checks every so often (say,
at the start of every section), so that when it does go wrong, there's a
warning, and the problem only propagates up to the next octave check
rather than the rest of the piece.


:-)

And Han Wen wrote the original octave check for me! Because I think I 
had exactly the problem Kieren is moaning about - I put a fragment of 
music in a variable, and because it started and finished over a 5th 
apart, I had great difficulty getting the phrase to repeat correctly. 
That was back in the 2.4/2.6 days ...


Cheers,
Wol

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi all,
>
>>> imho the near universality of keyboard competence defines Western
>>> Music as "can be played on a piano" and has severely damaged our
>>> understanding of what music actually is. Musicians like me who
>>> can't play piano are very rare ...
>
> As a musical theatre director, college music faculty instructor,
> composer, and performer (on multiple instruments), I can say with high
> confidence that you are mistaken: musicians who can’t play piano
> include at least 50% of the players in my pit bands, 80% of the music
> theatre students I teach, most of my young (pre-college) composition
> students, and a good 1/3 of the singers I accompany. If we qualify
> further with “can plunk out a linear melody on the piano reasonably in
> time, but nothing more than that”, the percentage is even higher.
>
>>> And why would a copyist be able to play keyboard?
>> Or not.  There's no reason for them to be mutually exclusive.
>
> Agreed. That being said, of all the (multiple dozens of) professional
> copyists I know, I know of only one who doesn’t play keyboard at least
> “reasonably well” (perhaps coincidentally, he’s a fabulous guitarist).
>
>> \fixed should make extremely high or low parts much easier.
>
> It does… but it also suffers from the same cut-and-paste problem (that
> word “IMO”) as \relative.

Maybe we should offer an input alternative (or something one depends on
the editor/MIDI converter to supply) to make the equivalences

c¹ c'
c² c''
c³ c'''
c⁴ c
c⁵ c'
c⁶ c''
c₁ c,
c₂ c,,
c₃ c,,,

That would be sorta Helmholtz-ish and would make the octave markers less
disruptive for reading and manipulating the source.  Could be done just
as "syntax highlighting" or as actual entry option.

Of course as actual entry option it would cause some interference with
the "identifiers can contain any non-ASCII unicode characters anywhere"
mantra.  Up to now, only ASCII letters are syntactically special.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[H. S. Teoh]

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 12:16:49PM -0400, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
[...]
> > Probably the biggest problem I encounter with \relative is when I
> > enter some music and then extract a section of it into a variable
> > for use somewhere else and having the original shift octaves
> > somewhere in the middle.  Then I have to search for the shift and
> > correct it.
> 
> That was the straw that broke my camel’s back so many years ago. I
> find it particularly bad if you try to compose or arrange directly in
> Lilypond (as opposed to simply transcribing or
> engraving-from-written-MS): write the first section, write the third
> section, then write the second section and the third section “becomes
> wrong”; fix that; try to cut-and-paste a chunk from Section 2 into
> Section 3, and both the new section *and* the rest of the piece
> “become wrong”; fix that; etc. When this plays out at higher
> resolution, I find it endlessly maddening (and flow-killing).
[...]

It's somewhat mitigated by inserting octave checks every so often (say,
at the start of every section), so that when it does go wrong, there's a
warning, and the problem only propagates up to the next octave check
rather than the rest of the piece.  That's what I do, anyway -- I also
compose directly in Lilypond. Octave checks are also the first warnings
that come up, so my usual practice is to interrupt Lilypond as soon as I
see an octave check failure, fix it, and repeat until no more warnings
come up.

Of course, I know your stance has been very clear all these years, so
I'm not going to try to convince you.  :-)  But just wanted to say that
there *are* ways to mitigate the problem, and that I find \relative
still extremely useful in tonal music.


T

-- 
Error: Keyboard not attached. Press F1 to continue. -- Yoon Ha Lee, CONLANG

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi all,

>> imho the near universality of keyboard competence defines Western Music as 
>> "can be played on a piano" and has severely damaged our understanding of 
>> what music actually is. Musicians like me who can't play piano are very rare 
>> ...

As a musical theatre director, college music faculty instructor, composer, and 
performer (on multiple instruments), I can say with high confidence that you 
are mistaken: musicians who can’t play piano include at least 50% of the 
players in my pit bands, 80% of the music theatre students I teach, most of my 
young (pre-college) composition students, and a good 1/3 of the singers I 
accompany. If we qualify further with “can plunk out a linear melody on the 
piano reasonably in time, but nothing more than that”, the percentage is even 
higher.

>> And why would a copyist be able to play keyboard?
> Or not.  There's no reason for them to be mutually exclusive.

Agreed. That being said, of all the (multiple dozens of) professional copyists 
I know, I know of only one who doesn’t play keyboard at least “reasonably well” 
(perhaps coincidentally, he’s a fabulous guitarist).

> \fixed should make extremely high or low parts much easier.

It does… but it also suffers from the same cut-and-paste problem (that word 
“IMO”) as \relative.

> Probably the biggest problem I encounter with \relative is when I enter some 
> music and then extract a section of it into a variable for use somewhere else 
> and having the original shift octaves somewhere in the middle.  Then I have 
> to search for the shift and correct it.

That was the straw that broke my camel’s back so many years ago. I find it 
particularly bad if you try to compose or arrange directly in Lilypond (as 
opposed to simply transcribing or engraving-from-written-MS): write the first 
section, write the third section, then write the second section and the third 
section “becomes wrong”; fix that; try to cut-and-paste a chunk from Section 2 
into Section 3, and both the new section *and* the rest of the piece “become 
wrong”; fix that; etc. When this plays out at higher resolution, I find it 
endlessly maddening (and flow-killing).

Perhaps if list-ers had come to my rescue back then in the (wonderful!) way 
they do for newbies now, I wouldn’t have thrown \relative out entirely, and my 
view of \relative might now be more generous… Or perhaps incremental 
improvements have been made to all the related functionality (\transpose, 
\relative, quote and cue stuff, etc.) so that it’s objectively less frustrating 
for people (like me) who regularly work with massive scores (50 staves x 100s 
of measures, transposing instruments including many multi-instrumentalists, 
etc.) and reuse lots of material (parts and scores, multiple formats of output, 
cueing/quoting as well as cutting-and-pasting, etc.). Whatever the reason is, 
it seems like every time I’m working in \relative mode (usually when trying to 
help someone on the list), something comes up which reminds me why I use 
\absolute.

I’m glad that many people like \relative, and I continue to hope that nobody 
falls into the same frustrating \relative pit(s) that I did.

And thus ends my last-ever evangelistic post or response on this topic.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer (he/him/his)
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: kie...@kierenmacmillan.info

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Paul Scott]

On 3/17/21 1:45 PM, antlists wrote:

On 17/03/2021 08:23, Michael Gerdau wrote:
I don't have any of the show stopper Kieren is so evangelistic about 
and very clearly find \relative easier to enter via a normal keyboard 
by a long shot. Entering all those "'" (requires SHIFT on a german 
keyboard) and "," is not at all fluent.


Well, I'm a "hunt-n-peck" one-fingered pianist, so I guess I'd find 
using a midi keyboard MUCH harder than a computer one (as a guitarist, 
I found that was great for improving my typing skills :-)
Having read Kieren's method of using midi to enter the pitches and later 
adding the durations I may let the idea of a midi keyboard go.


imho the near universality of keyboard competence defines Western 
Music as "can be played on a piano" and has severely damaged our 
understanding of what music actually is. Musicians like me who can't 
play piano are very rare ...


And why would a copyist be able to play keyboard?

Or not.  There's no reason for them to be mutually exclusive.


I also find reading \relative much easier but that my be depending on 
what you're used to.



likewise

I seldom use transpose and I know of no case where I have nested 
transpose. With unnested transpose I have not yet had a problem. And 
frescobaldi does very easily transform from \relative to \absolute, 
should I ever need it.


Well, as a trombonist who plays in both brass and concert bands (and 
used to play in an orchestra), I use transpose all the time, and never 
had any trouble.


Therefor my conclusion is:
Kieren surely has good reason to prefer \absolute, but deriving that 
\relative is inferior and should be avoided is overdoing it IMO.


Agreed. Okay, my instrument wouldn't use much by way of octave modifiers,

Bass clef instruments is where I just started switching to \absolute.

but I'd hate to be writing a piccolo trumpet part ...


\fixed should make extremely high or low parts much easier.

I think remembering \fixed and the challenges of editing mistakes in 
\relative is convincing me to switch to absolute. Probably the biggest 
problem I encounter with \relative is when I enter some music and then 
extract a section of it into a variable for use somewhere else and 
having the original shift octaves somewhere in the middle.  Then I have 
to search for the shift and correct it.


Stay safe and well,

Paul

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Knute Snortum]

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:39 PM Mogens Lemvig Hansen  wrote:
>
> I would like to forward another argument for the use of \relative.
>
> I have used Lilypond for several years, but I am certainly not a professional 
> musician or music typesetter.  The music I set is not overly complicated - 
> usually up to five of six (vocal) voices on up to maybe six pages.  I seem 
> unable to remember which octave is c' through c''.  Memorizing this is likely 
> simpler than memorizing that the derivative of arctan(x) is 1/(1+x²), but 
> while the latter to me is rock solid, the former is a fleeting breath.  
> Therefore I always end up taking a wild guess for the first note of my 
> \relative; once that note has been corrected, the rest is mostly right.  
> Using \absolute would, for me, be a nightmare of wrong octaves.

I use the attached PDF to help me remember absolute pitches in
LIlyPond.  I've attached it (and the source file that produced it) in
case it helps you.

--
Knute Snortum


note-chart.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
\version "2.22.0"

{ 
  c4_"C" g_"G" c'_"C'" g'_"G'" |
  c''4^"C''" g''^"G''" c'''^"C'''" g'''^"G'''" |
  \clef bass
  c,,4_"C,," g,,_"G,," c,_"C," g,_"G," |
  c4_"C" g^"G" c'^"C'" g'^"G'" |
}

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[antlists]

On 17/03/2021 08:23, Michael Gerdau wrote:

I don't have any of the show stopper Kieren is so evangelistic about and very clearly find 
\relative easier to enter via a normal keyboard by a long shot. Entering all those "'" 
(requires SHIFT on a german keyboard) and "," is not at all fluent.


Well, I'm a "hunt-n-peck" one-fingered pianist, so I guess I'd find 
using a midi keyboard MUCH harder than a computer one (as a guitarist, I 
found that was great for improving my typing skills :-)


imho the near universality of keyboard competence defines Western Music 
as "can be played on a piano" and has severely damaged our understanding 
of what music actually is. Musicians like me who can't play piano are 
very rare ...


And why would a copyist be able to play keyboard?


I also find reading \relative much easier but that my be depending on what 
you're used to.


likewise


I seldom use transpose and I know of no case where I have nested transpose. 
With unnested transpose I have not yet had a problem. And frescobaldi does very 
easily transform from \relative to \absolute, should I ever need it.


Well, as a trombonist who plays in both brass and concert bands (and 
used to play in an orchestra), I use transpose all the time, and never 
had any trouble.


Therefor my conclusion is:
Kieren surely has good reason to prefer \absolute, but deriving that \relative 
is inferior and should be avoided is overdoing it IMO.


Agreed. Okay, my instrument wouldn't use much by way of octave 
modifiers, but I'd hate to be writing a piccolo trumpet part ...


Cheers,
Wol

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[David Kastrup]

Paul Scott  writes:

> On 3/16/21 3:58 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Paul Scott  writes:
>>
>> I am a copyist, not a composer.  I currently don’t have a MIDI
>> keyboard. I enter everything through Emacs without a mouse for pitch,
>> therefore haven’t considered tools like Frescobaldi so far.
>> I have been using \relative for many years and am aware of the problems.
>>
>> Because of this discussion I have just started using \absolute for
>> bass clef parts and I just noticed \fixed which I will start
>> experimenting with.  Any other suggestions for my situation as
>> described above?
>>
>> I will consider getting a small MIDI keyboard which would probably
>> lead to experimenting with Frescobaldi.
>> Ah, but Emacs' MIDI input mode deals better with chorded notes.
>
>
> Any suggestions for small inexpensive MIDI keyboards?

Huh.  I have some basic keyboard here (61 keys?) that I essentially
never used.  If you are looking to use it for note entry (rather than
any direct music-making), the advice is to confine yourself to a number
of keys you are likely to tolerate sitting on the table along with the
computer and dealing with using one hand.

When I do note entry with MIDI these days, I tend to put my FR-1b on the
table and just use the keyboard (right-hand) section.  The Roland FR-1b
is a 3-octave chromatic button accordion, so the keyboard section is
actually considerably smaller than a 3-octave piano keyboard would be.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Michael Gerdau]

> > 3. The *single* serious argument against absolute music — that it requires 
> > extra typing [of apostrophes and commas] — is essentially eliminated by 
> > using an IDE like Frescobaldi: using MIDI input means I avoid typing note 
> > code (including octavation symbols) almost entirely, and the transposition 
> > functions let me instantaneously re-octavate large sections of code if 
> > that’s ever required (which it basically never is). I believe we should be 
> > encouraging users to use tools like Frescobaldi — because I believe their 
> > coding lives would be made easier in *so* many ways — and the “crutch” of 
> > \relative means there’s less incentive to do so in the early stages of the 
> > learning curve (which is exactly when habits, good or bad, tend to be 
> > formed).
> 
> Using variables for pieces longer than two bars is probably more
> crucial than teaching beginners the intricacies of using \transpose
> inline.
> 
> I’ve been using MIDI for years and still use \relative. I mostly work
> with vocal music and find it easier to read, and to me, propagating an
> octave error to the end of the piece is a feature rather than a bug.
> Frescobaldi happily processes \relative music as easily as it does
> \absolute music.
> 
> If I sent a score to Kieran, the first thing he would spend 20 seconds
> converting it to \absolute in Frescobaldi :-)

I'd like to add my +1 to this.

I don't have any of the show stopper Kieren is so evangelistic about and very 
clearly find \relative easier to enter via a normal keyboard by a long shot. 
Entering all those "'" (requires SHIFT on a german keyboard) and "," is not at 
all fluent.

I also find reading \relative much easier but that my be depending on what 
you're used to.

I seldom use transpose and I know of no case where I have nested transpose. 
With unnested transpose I have not yet had a problem. And frescobaldi does very 
easily transform from \relative to \absolute, should I ever need it.

Therefor my conclusion is:
Kieren surely has good reason to prefer \absolute, but deriving that \relative 
is inferior and should be avoided is overdoing it IMO.

Kind regards,
Michael

PS: When I get a LP file with all \absolute, the first thing I do is spend 20 
seconds to convert it all to \relative in frscobaldi :D
-- 
Michael Gerdau email: m...@qata.de
GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Vaughan McAlley]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 23:54, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
> 3. The *single* serious argument against absolute music — that it requires 
> extra typing [of apostrophes and commas] — is essentially eliminated by using 
> an IDE like Frescobaldi: using MIDI input means I avoid typing note code 
> (including octavation symbols) almost entirely, and the transposition 
> functions let me instantaneously re-octavate large sections of code if that’s 
> ever required (which it basically never is). I believe we should be 
> encouraging users to use tools like Frescobaldi — because I believe their 
> coding lives would be made easier in *so* many ways — and the “crutch” of 
> \relative means there’s less incentive to do so in the early stages of the 
> learning curve (which is exactly when habits, good or bad, tend to be formed).

Using variables for pieces longer than two bars is probably more
crucial than teaching beginners the intricacies of using \transpose
inline.

I’ve been using MIDI for years and still use \relative. I mostly work
with vocal music and find it easier to read, and to me, propagating an
octave error to the end of the piece is a feature rather than a bug.
Frescobaldi happily processes \relative music as easily as it does
\absolute music.

If I sent a score to Kieran, the first thing he would spend 20 seconds
converting it to \absolute in Frescobaldi :-)

Vaughan

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Karlin High]

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:36 PM Paul Scott  wrote:

> Any suggestions for small inexpensive MIDI keyboards?
>

I have an M-AUDIO Keystation 49e. Current version:



Also available in 61-key and 88-key versions, entire product family here:



Note it's strictly a midi input device. It cannot make any sound whatsoever
by itself.

When I was using it most, I had a free version of the Bome Midi Translator
software...



...to map unused MIDI-keys to text-keystrokes, and SpeedyMIDI for recording
the input:



Then I used midi2ly on the results.
-- 
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

RE: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Mogens Lemvig Hansen]

I would like to forward another argument for the use of \relative.
I have used Lilypond for several years, but I am certainly not a professional 
musician or music typesetter.  The music I set is not overly complicated - 
usually up to five of six (vocal) voices on up to maybe six pages.  I seem 
unable to remember which octave is c' through c''.  Memorizing this is likely 
simpler than memorizing that the derivative of arctan(x) is 1/(1+x²), but while 
the latter to me is rock solid, the former is a fleeting breath.  Therefore I 
always end up taking a wild guess for the first note of my \relative; once that 
note has been corrected, the rest is mostly right.  Using \absolute would, for 
me, be a nightmare of wrong octaves.

Regards,
Mogens

From: Paul Scott
Sent: March 16, 2021 15:56
To: Kieren MacMillan
Cc: David Kastrup; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested 
transposition"]



> 3. The *single* serious argument against absolute music — that it requires 
> extra typing [of apostrophes and commas] — is essentially eliminated by using 
> an IDE like Frescobaldi: using MIDI input means I avoid typing note code 
> (including octavation symbols) almost entirely, and the transposition 
> functions let me instantaneously re-octavate large sections of code if that’s 
> ever required (which it basically never is). I believe we should be 
> encouraging users to use tools like Frescobaldi — because I believe their 
> coding lives would be made easier in *so* many ways — and the “crutch” of 
> \relative means there’s less incentive to do so in the early stages of the 
> learning curve (which is exactly when habits, good or bad, tend to be formed).

I am a copyist, not a composer.  I currently don’t have a MIDI keyboard. I 
enter everything through Emacs without a mouse for pitch, therefore haven’t 
considered tools like Frescobaldi so far.
I have been using \relative for many years and am aware of the problems.

Because of this discussion I have just started using \absolute for bass clef 
parts and I just noticed \fixed which I will start experimenting with.  Any 
other suggestions for my situation as described above?  

I will consider getting a small MIDI keyboard which would probably lead to 
experimenting with Frescobaldi.

Thanks for any other thoughts.

> 
> Making other people’s (especially newbies’) lives easier *is* ultimately what 
> I’m trying to do.

Agreed! 

Paul

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Paul Scott]

On 3/16/21 3:58 PM, David Kastrup wrote:

Paul Scott  writes:

I am a copyist, not a composer.  I currently don’t have a MIDI
keyboard. I enter everything through Emacs without a mouse for pitch,
therefore haven’t considered tools like Frescobaldi so far.
I have been using \relative for many years and am aware of the problems.

Because of this discussion I have just started using \absolute for
bass clef parts and I just noticed \fixed which I will start
experimenting with.  Any other suggestions for my situation as
described above?

I will consider getting a small MIDI keyboard which would probably
lead to experimenting with Frescobaldi.
Ah, but Emacs' MIDI input mode deals better with chorded notes.



Any suggestions for small inexpensive MIDI keyboards?

Paul

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> but Emacs' MIDI input mode deals better with chorded notes.
>
> It does?
> I find Frescobaldi’s “chord mode” works wonderfully.
> How does Emacs handle chorded notes, and what makes it better?

It doesn't confuse legato with chords.  Last time I checked Frescobaldi,
it was pretty awful with legato in chord mode.

Of course it is also convenient for me as an accordion player that I can
record one rendition in a keyboard macro and then replay it several
times, with Emacs listening to different MIDI channels each time.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> but Emacs' MIDI input mode deals better with chorded notes.

It does?
I find Frescobaldi’s “chord mode” works wonderfully.
How does Emacs handle chorded notes, and what makes it better?

Thanks,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer (he/him/his)
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: kie...@kierenmacmillan.info

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[David Kastrup]

Paul Scott  writes:

>> 3. The *single* serious argument against absolute music — that it
>> requires extra typing [of apostrophes and commas] — is essentially
>> eliminated by using an IDE like Frescobaldi: using MIDI input means
>> I avoid typing note code (including octavation symbols) almost
>> entirely, and the transposition functions let me instantaneously
>> re-octavate large sections of code if that’s ever required (which it
>> basically never is). I believe we should be encouraging users to use
>> tools like Frescobaldi — because I believe their coding lives would
>> be made easier in *so* many ways — and the “crutch” of \relative
>> means there’s less incentive to do so in the early stages of the
>> learning curve (which is exactly when habits, good or bad, tend to
>> be formed).
>
> I am a copyist, not a composer.  I currently don’t have a MIDI
> keyboard. I enter everything through Emacs without a mouse for pitch,
> therefore haven’t considered tools like Frescobaldi so far.
> I have been using \relative for many years and am aware of the problems.
>
> Because of this discussion I have just started using \absolute for
> bass clef parts and I just noticed \fixed which I will start
> experimenting with.  Any other suggestions for my situation as
> described above?
>
> I will consider getting a small MIDI keyboard which would probably
> lead to experimenting with Frescobaldi.

Ah, but Emacs' MIDI input mode deals better with chorded notes.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: why Kieren is a \relative evangelist [was “Re: Nested transposition"]

[Paul Scott]

> 3. The *single* serious argument against absolute music — that it requires 
> extra typing [of apostrophes and commas] — is essentially eliminated by using 
> an IDE like Frescobaldi: using MIDI input means I avoid typing note code 
> (including octavation symbols) almost entirely, and the transposition 
> functions let me instantaneously re-octavate large sections of code if that’s 
> ever required (which it basically never is). I believe we should be 
> encouraging users to use tools like Frescobaldi — because I believe their 
> coding lives would be made easier in *so* many ways — and the “crutch” of 
> \relative means there’s less incentive to do so in the early stages of the 
> learning curve (which is exactly when habits, good or bad, tend to be formed).

I am a copyist, not a composer.  I currently don’t have a MIDI keyboard. I 
enter everything through Emacs without a mouse for pitch, therefore haven’t 
considered tools like Frescobaldi so far.
I have been using \relative for many years and am aware of the problems.

Because of this discussion I have just started using \absolute for bass clef 
parts and I just noticed \fixed which I will start experimenting with.  Any 
other suggestions for my situation as described above?  

I will consider getting a small MIDI keyboard which would probably lead to 
experimenting with Frescobaldi.

Thanks for any other thoughts.

> 
> Making other people’s (especially newbies’) lives easier *is* ultimately what 
> I’m trying to do.

Agreed! 

Paul