Re: Start new score without line break

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Simon,

I think MuseScore can do it also, for simple cases. Nothing is impossible -
it's just software after all!

Harm has given me a pointer to as way to fake this out which works fine
when adapted a little. But it's lots of code, and the idea of \noBreak
\score would be very helpful to many people I feel sure.

Andrew



On 24 February 2017 at 08:54, Simon Albrecht  wrote:

> Am 22.02.2017 um 14:41 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
>
>> I would still like to be able to start a new score with no break, for
>> example in books of say, harpsichord music with lots of small, short
>> movements, where the systems would be the same proportions but the piece is
>> new.
>>
>
> There are other conceivable use cases, e.g. the attached one, or other
> cases with a very short recitativo inbetween larger scored movements. But
> they are exceedingly rare.
> Also, a proper solution would certainly require the C++ page layout
> algorithms to optionally not make a line break between scores (the input
> syntax could theoretically be as simple as
> \score { c } \noBreak \score { d }
> ). I like that idea, but allow me to say that this is probably never going
> to be possible (in any music notation software)…
>
> Best, Simon
>
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Re: Start new score without line break

[tisimst]

Hi, Simon!

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Simon Albrecht-2 [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n200415...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:

> Am 22.02.2017 um 14:41 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
> > I would still like to be able to start a new score with no break, for
> > example in books of say, harpsichord music with lots of small, short
> > movements, where the systems would be the same proportions but the
> > piece is new.
>
> There are other conceivable use cases, e.g. the attached one, or other
> cases with a very short recitativo in between larger scored movements.
> But they are exceedingly rare.
> Also, a proper solution would certainly require the C++ page layout
> algorithms to optionally not make a line break between scores (the input
> syntax could theoretically be as simple as
> \score { c } \noBreak \score { d }
> ). I like that idea, but allow me to say that this is probably never
> going to be possible (in any music notation software)…
>

Actually, it's already quite easy to do in at least two GUI apps: PriMus
and Dorico.

Best,
Abraham




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Re: Start new score without line break

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 22.02.2017 um 14:41 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
I would still like to be able to start a new score with no break, for 
example in books of say, harpsichord music with lots of small, short 
movements, where the systems would be the same proportions but the 
piece is new.


There are other conceivable use cases, e.g. the attached one, or other 
cases with a very short recitativo inbetween larger scored movements. 
But they are exceedingly rare.
Also, a proper solution would certainly require the C++ page layout 
algorithms to optionally not make a line break between scores (the input 
syntax could theoretically be as simple as

\score { c } \noBreak \score { d }
). I like that idea, but allow me to say that this is probably never 
going to be possible (in any music notation software)…


Best, Simon
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Re: Start new score without line break

[Thomas Morley]

2017-02-22 15:29 GMT+01:00 Andrew Bernard :
> Hi All,
>
> Well, here's what I have so far. All that is needed now is the brace and the
> time signature.
>
> Andrew
>
> == snip
>
> \version "2.19.55"
>
> treble = {
>   \clef treble
>   \key a \major
>   \override Score.BreakAlignment.break-align-orders =
>   #(make-vector 3 '(left-edge
> cue-end-clef
> ambitus
> breathing-sign
> staff-bar
> clef
> time-signature
> cue-clef
> key-cancellation
> key-signature
> custos))
>   c'4
>   \bar "|."
>   \stopStaff
>   s4 s s s
>   \bar "|"
>   \startStaff
>   \override Staff.Clef.full-size-change = ##t
>   \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
>   \clef treble
>   \key a \major
>   c'4
> }
>
> bass = {
>   \clef bass
>   \key a \major
>
>   c4
>   \stopStaff
>   s4 s s s
>   \startStaff
>   \override Staff.Clef.full-size-change = ##t
>   \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
>   \clef bass
>   \key a \major
>   c4
> }
>
> \score {
>
>   \new PianoStaff
>   <<
> \new Staff { \treble }
> \new Staff { \bass }
>   >>
>
>   \layout {
>   }
> }
>
> == snip
>
>
>
>
> On 23 February 2017 at 00:52, Richard Shann  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2017-02-22 at 14:28 +0100, Alexander Kobel wrote:
>> > Andrew,
>> >
>> > On 2017-02-22 14:02, Andrew Bernard wrote:
>> [...]
>> >
>> > > Can this be done? I can see how you can use stopStaff and startStaff
>> > > to get close, but there does not appear to be an obvious way to get
>> > > system start delimiters and braces drawn if you do that.
>> >
>> > I once tried to duplicate the SystemStartDelimiter stencil from the
>> > beginning of the line, to insert it at the place where \startStaff is
>> > called.  It would not be the most convenient approach (in particular,
>> > you'd typically want to have some vertically centered text in the
>> > gap), but at least a start.  And the missing delimiter is the main
>> > technical hindrance AFAICS.
>> > Alas, I did not succeed; but I suspect that someone with a better
>> > Scheme- and Lily-internals-fu could make this work...
>>
>> I wonder if you could get LilyPond to draw the brace after the break in
>> the staff by defining a custom barline and putting that there? It would
>> not work for nested braces, but I think most applications are just a
>> single brace.
>>
>>
>> Richard


Hi,

maybe
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-12/msg01027.html
is of some help.

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Start new score without line break

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi All,

Well, here's what I have so far. All that is needed now is the brace and
the time signature.

Andrew

== snip

\version "2.19.55"

treble = {
  \clef treble
  \key a \major
  \override Score.BreakAlignment.break-align-orders =
  #(make-vector 3 '(left-edge
cue-end-clef
ambitus
breathing-sign
staff-bar
clef
time-signature
cue-clef
key-cancellation
key-signature
custos))
  c'4
  \bar "|."
  \stopStaff
  s4 s s s
  \bar "|"
  \startStaff
  \override Staff.Clef.full-size-change = ##t
  \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
  \clef treble
  \key a \major
  c'4
}

bass = {
  \clef bass
  \key a \major

  c4
  \stopStaff
  s4 s s s
  \startStaff
  \override Staff.Clef.full-size-change = ##t
  \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
  \clef bass
  \key a \major
  c4
}

\score {

  \new PianoStaff
  <<
\new Staff { \treble }
\new Staff { \bass }
  >>

  \layout {
  }
}

== snip




On 23 February 2017 at 00:52, Richard Shann  wrote:

> On Wed, 2017-02-22 at 14:28 +0100, Alexander Kobel wrote:
> > Andrew,
> >
> > On 2017-02-22 14:02, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > > Can this be done? I can see how you can use stopStaff and startStaff
> > > to get close, but there does not appear to be an obvious way to get
> > > system start delimiters and braces drawn if you do that.
> >
> > I once tried to duplicate the SystemStartDelimiter stencil from the
> > beginning of the line, to insert it at the place where \startStaff is
> > called.  It would not be the most convenient approach (in particular,
> > you'd typically want to have some vertically centered text in the
> > gap), but at least a start.  And the missing delimiter is the main
> > technical hindrance AFAICS.
> > Alas, I did not succeed; but I suspect that someone with a better
> > Scheme- and Lily-internals-fu could make this work...
>
> I wonder if you could get LilyPond to draw the brace after the break in
> the staff by defining a custom barline and putting that there? It would
> not work for nested braces, but I think most applications are just a
> single brace.
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
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Re: Start new score without line break

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2017-02-22 at 14:28 +0100, Alexander Kobel wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> On 2017-02-22 14:02, Andrew Bernard wrote:
[...]
> 
> > Can this be done? I can see how you can use stopStaff and startStaff
> > to get close, but there does not appear to be an obvious way to get
> > system start delimiters and braces drawn if you do that.
> 
> I once tried to duplicate the SystemStartDelimiter stencil from the
> beginning of the line, to insert it at the place where \startStaff is
> called.  It would not be the most convenient approach (in particular,
> you'd typically want to have some vertically centered text in the
> gap), but at least a start.  And the missing delimiter is the main
> technical hindrance AFAICS.
> Alas, I did not succeed; but I suspect that someone with a better
> Scheme- and Lily-internals-fu could make this work...

I wonder if you could get LilyPond to draw the brace after the break in
the staff by defining a custom barline and putting that there? It would
not work for nested braces, but I think most applications are just a
single brace.


Richard



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Re: Start new score without line break

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Alexander,

Thanks for this. But I suppose I was not really referring to the highly
specific issues in the other thread (or I would have kept in that thread).
I would still like to be able to start a new score with no break, for
example in books of say, harpsichord music with lots of small, short
movements, where the systems would be the same proportions but the piece is
new.

Although I am fluent in Scheme, I have no idea at all what area of lilypond
to start digging in to address such.

Andrew
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Re: Start new score without line break

[Alexander Kobel]

On 2017-02-22 14:28, Alexander Kobel wrote:
> On 2017-02-22 14:02, Andrew Bernard wrote:
>> There's currently a thread here which refers in passing to the
>> difficulty of starting a new score on a page without a line break or
>> a page break.
> [...]
> I just want to point out one important linguistic and technical detail:  what 
> we are lacking is not so much the option to start a new score in-line, it's 
> about suspending and restarting entire systems /within a score/ in-line. [...]

Well, to be even more precise: both would be nice.  But even if you start a new 
logical score (as Pierre indeed does in the example), you'd probably want it to 
be of coherent appearance to the systems before.  From Lilypond's perspective, 
this means it's most probably a continued score, maybe with a new spacing 
section etc, but hardly a fresh vertical positioning computation...


Cheers,
Alexander

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Re: Start new score without line break

[Alexander Kobel]

Andrew,

On 2017-02-22 14:02, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> There's currently a thread here which refers in passing to the
> difficulty of starting a new score on a page without a line break or
> a page break.

I assume you refer to the thread that I hijacked to ask Pierre for his 
MuseScore-made D.C., right?  (For reference, I take the liberty to attach it.)

I just want to point out one important linguistic and technical detail:  what 
we are lacking is not so much the option to start a new score in-line, it's 
about suspending and restarting entire systems /within a score/ in-line.
That's different because a new score has it's own spacing, in particular 
vertically.  It /is/ actually possible to achieve the desired effect by putting 
two scores in markups and \fill-line them.  But it is certainly non-trivial to 
tweak the vertical spacing to the rest of the score above and below, or to make 
sure that the staves and elements in the two markup scores are vertically 
aligned.  Even less so for a sensible horizontal spacing, or the possibility to 
reconsider the breaks after the matter.

> Can this be done? I can see how you can use stopStaff and startStaff
> to get close, but there does not appear to be an obvious way to get
> system start delimiters and braces drawn if you do that.

I once tried to duplicate the SystemStartDelimiter stencil from the beginning 
of the line, to insert it at the place where \startStaff is called.  It would 
not be the most convenient approach (in particular, you'd typically want to 
have some vertically centered text in the gap), but at least a start.  And the 
missing delimiter is the main technical hindrance AFAICS.
Alas, I did not succeed; but I suspect that someone with a better Scheme- and 
Lily-internals-fu could make this work...

> Simply calling a new score always throws a line break.

See above; that's not quite what we want.


Cheers,
Alexander


> Could this be an enhancement to lilypond, to somehow specify \score
> with no line break?
> 
> So many publications use this, it seems like a surprising omission.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___ lilypond-user mailing
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> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> 

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Start new score without line break

[Andrew Bernard]

There's currently a thread here which refers in passing to the difficulty
of starting a new score on a page without a line break or a page break.

Can this be done? I can see how you can use stopStaff and startStaff to get
close, but there does not appear to be an obvious way to get system start
delimiters and braces drawn if you do that. Simply calling a new score
always throws a line break.

Could this be an enhancement to lilypond, to somehow specify \score with no
line break?

So many publications use this, it seems like a surprising omission.

Andrew
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