Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
On 3/21/17 8:52 PM, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote: FWIW, I've written algorithmically-generated music with irrational durations by a process described at http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/professional/music/notes-on-notes-on-the-plane.pdf and I think it came out pretty well. It's not deliberately written with irrational timing just to be annoying; the square roots come naturally from the underlying geometric model and couldn't be easily removed without compromising that in a significant way. Unfortunately, the audio recordings are currently offline because I stopped paying for SoundCloud, but I plan to put them back online elsewhere within a month or two, and could provide files on request if anyone asks me off-list. That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing. I was not making an argument against it. My point was that we usually we are too biased by traditional notation, and put non powers of two divisions in the "really difficult" place when it is not the case. BTW Conlon Nancarrow also has used irrational tempi. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
On Tue, 21 Mar 2017, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote: > The only time I've even seen an attempt at irrational durations was in the > one other thread on this list that was actually more annoying, more > aggressive and differently clueless. I believe the intended durations were > 1/sqrt(71) or something equally undiscernable. FWIW, I've written algorithmically-generated music with irrational durations by a process described at http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/professional/music/notes-on-notes-on-the-plane.pdf and I think it came out pretty well. It's not deliberately written with irrational timing just to be annoying; the square roots come naturally from the underlying geometric model and couldn't be easily removed without compromising that in a significant way. Unfortunately, the audio recordings are currently offline because I stopped paying for SoundCloud, but I plan to put them back online elsewhere within a month or two, and could provide files on request if anyone asks me off-list. I used Lilypond to do some notation examples in that document, but I didn't attempt to create a complete score of the composition in music notation nor figure out what such a thing would sensibly look like. It's not intended for human performance and the actual score is a set of Csound files. -- Matthew Skala msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? > On 3/21/17 4:35 AM, Malte Meyn wrote: > >> >> Am 21.03.2017 um 06:46 schrieb have@anti.capital: >> >>> A composer who uses an irrational tuplet is a composer who is going out >>> of his way to exclude his music from comfortable notation. >>> >> Oh, I think that these irrational tuplets are comfortable to write easy >> to understand if you >> > > Why one calls them 'irrationals'? they are rational number ratios just as > any ordinary notation, unless you're referring to a tuplet of π (pi) or > log2 3... > > They look difficult because we put them in a special "difficult" place. > Unlike Carnatic musicians, who just learn rationals and "irrationals" as > two categories of the same things since the beginning. Stop that. > There are so many other reasons why this "premusic" format is a silly concept. Do we really need to bring up the topic of "irrational tuplets" to make this point? The only time I've even seen an attempt at irrational durations was in the one other thread on this list that was actually more annoying, more aggressive and differently clueless. I believe the intended durations were 1/sqrt(71) or something equally undiscernable. My general observation on this "premusic" concept is that it is an attempt to abstract some aspects of musical content (namely, pitch name, rhythm and lyrics), and ignoring others (like dynamics, tempo, even the octave of the pitch is ambiguous in your "perfect" system, as well as tempo, markup, etc.), without any consideration of how to actually notate it. Even if this format were useful for someone to input or edit the incomplete musical information it models, in order to actually engrave a piece of sheet music, you would have to have another layer on top to contain all of that information: grouping for beams, the orientation of slurs and articulations, barlines, how staves are grouped into staff groups, etc. I hope that what you take away from this discussion includes: o You have not fully considered what is required to define music even in an abstract way, so your design is not useful for people who are trying to process, manage or manipulate musical content. o You have not at all considered what information is required to define sheet music (which goes beyond the abstract musical representation), so your design is not useful for people who are trying to produce sheet music. o Your proposed file format--even assuming that we don't care about all the ways in which the problem it claims to solve is not even considered, let alone solved--is not convenient: it is difficult to view, to read and to manage. Best of luck, David Elaine Alt 415 . 341 .4954 "*Confusion is highly underrated*" ela...@flaminghakama.com self-immolation.info skype: flaming_hakama Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
On 3/21/17 4:35 AM, Malte Meyn wrote: Am 21.03.2017 um 06:46 schrieb have@anti.capital: A composer who uses an irrational tuplet is a composer who is going out of his way to exclude his music from comfortable notation. Oh, I think that these irrational tuplets are comfortable to write easy to understand if you Why one calls them 'irrationals'? they are rational number ratios just as any ordinary notation, unless you're referring to a tuplet of π (pi) or log2 3... They look difficult because we put them in a special "difficult" place. Unlike Carnatic musicians, who just learn rationals and "irrationals" as two categories of the same things since the beginning. Stop that. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
writes: > I think that I should append a disclaimer to my format: I don't > intend it to be more comfortably sight-read than sheet music is and > will be. I simply intend to create an analogue of .txt where there is > only .docx and .odt. It is perfectly legible for simple pieces, and > perhaps an environment like Frescobaldi could be configured to > real-time display Premusic code as its appropriate sheet music for > more complex pieces - that environment would make my format into a > very formidable one indeed. So you want it to be AsciiDoc for music. Tablatures are actually already done frequently in a somewhat similar manner and work reasonably well for guitar music that is not too complicated. For lots of music, the format's relation between visual and musical complexity is not good enough to convey musical sense fast enough. Even for guitar music, it clutters the field of vision much more with symbols than ASCII tablature does. Mathematicians don't converse in ASCII notation but graphical formulas, even if some of them are reasonably versed in looking at TeX notation. Something like Dies ist \begin{multline} \label{eq:51} f(t+\Delta t,x) = \beta\frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x-\Delta x)} f(t,x-\Delta x)\\ + (1-2\beta + \beta \frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x+\Delta x)} + \beta\frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x-\Delta x)})\,f(t,x)\\ + \beta\frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x+\Delta x)}\,f(t,x+\Delta x) \end{multline} Für die weitere Herleitung kürzen wir jetzt die Ableitung etwa von $d$ nach der Ortskoordinate~$x$ mit $d'$ ab. is quite harder to peruse than Dies ist Für die weitere Herleitung kürzen wir jetzt die Ableitung etwa von nach der Ortskoordinate~ mit ab. Music is similar in that respect. AsciiDoc has a much simpler task since its principal substance is letters and it is used for structuring text. Nevertheless it has not become the bees' knees of documentation writing, it is just one semipopular way of doing things. There are numerous forms of piano roll notation that are a lot better candidates for playing material than your proposal. Maybe you should look at them for inspiration. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
On Tue 21 Mar 2017 at 09:21:43 (-0700), have@anti.capital wrote: > I think that I should append a disclaimer to my format: I don't intend it to > be more comfortably sight-read than sheet music is and will be. I simply > intend to create an analogue of .txt where there is only .docx and .odt. It > is perfectly legible for simple pieces, and perhaps an environment like > Frescobaldi could be configured to real-time display Premusic code as its > appropriate sheet music for more complex pieces - that environment would make > my format into a very formidable one indeed. > > Johan, mine's got less shortcomings though. > > Irrational note lengths could be achieved with another square character. > > Here is a four-beat measure with a pi note followed by rest. > > a* = pi minus three > > []rh daa*|| > > > > And with that, I extended my format to meet the challenge. Does anyone else > have any irrational ABC or Guido code? Chopin? If not, I still have the best > format. QED. No, no, mine's the longest! Look: antidisestablishmentarianismIST > ----- Earlier Message - > Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? > Date: 3/21/17 5:26 am > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > > Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: > > > I have invented the perfect plaintext file format for premusic. Oh, sorry; wrong mailing list. Cheers, David. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
I think that I should append a disclaimer to my format: I don't intend it to be more comfortably sight-read than sheet music is and will be. I simply intend to create an analogue of .txt where there is only .docx and .odt. It is perfectly legible for simple pieces, and perhaps an environment like Frescobaldi could be configured to real-time display Premusic code as its appropriate sheet music for more complex pieces - that environment would make my format into a very formidable one indeed. Johan, mine's got less shortcomings though. Irrational note lengths could be achieved with another square character. Here is a four-beat measure with a pi note followed by rest. a* = pi minus three []rh daa*|| And with that, I extended my format to meet the challenge. Does anyone else have any irrational ABC or Guido code? Chopin? If not, I still have the best format. QED. - Original Message - Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Johan Vromans" Date: 3/21/17 5:26 am To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: > I have invented the perfect plaintext file format for premusic. I think the bottom line is that all text-based music notation systems have shortcomings when it comes to readability, writability, maintainability etc. From all imperfect systems we choose the one we like most, where "like" is very subjective. It it gets us where we want to, it is a good choice. Some people like to program in C, other people prefer Perl, some program in Java. And some even think that HTML is a programming language. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user "Oh, I think that these irrational tuplets are comfortable to write easy to understand if you use traditional notation." It is not acceptable that the only method of conveying that information is to write it down on sheets of paper as has been done for centuries and then create a very complicated file format to describe those sheets of paper as have been done for centuries. "If you're interested I'll do a quick search and find some more music by not-cornercase-composers that breaks your format." Please do! I'll meet the challenge, and continue to prove I have the best plaintext format. "So here is the point where your format is readable neither for humans nor for computers." See note at the top of this message. "So the most powerful terminal editors like vim and emacs just aren't good enough for your genius format? Sad but probably their fault. Oh wait: It's not the choice of editor that makes these files uncomfortable to handle with." "Yes, there are people that'll do exactly this. (Ok, I prefer vim but that's not the point here.)" You don't need a "the most powerful editor" for this because it isn't a format that the features of those editors are catered to. I hate to break it to you, but sometimes unmaximized CLI isn't the most comfortable text environment to work in. Put it in Gedit, maximize, maybe turn the text size down if you must, and enjoy. Have any of you actually tried transcribing simple music into my format yet? - Original Message - Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Malte Meyn" Date: 3/21/17 3:35 am To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Am 21.03.2017 um 06:46 schrieb have@anti.capital: > A composer who uses an irrational tuplet is a composer who is going out of > his way to exclude his music from comfortable notation. Oh, I think that these irrational tuplets are comfortable to write easy to understand if you use traditional notation. > I'm not too concerned about that corner case of corner cases and am frankly > honored you have to dig so deep to try and break my format. If you're interested I'll do a quick search and find some more music by not-cornercase-composers that breaks your format. > But in any case, there's precisely nothing to stop you from approximating as > far as you want, with an explanatory comment appended if needed. So here is the point where your format is readable neither for humans nor for computers. > Nor am I concerned if my plaintext file format is not as comfortable in > terminal editors as it is in the GUI text editors that everyone has and most > people use. So the most powerful terminal editors like vim and emacs just aren't good enough for your genius format? Sad but probably their fault. Oh wait: It's not the choice of editor that makes these files uncomfortable to handle with. > I note that Ctrl-U (view source) renders it perfectly in Fir
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: > I have invented the perfect plaintext file format for premusic. I think the bottom line is that all text-based music notation systems have shortcomings when it comes to readability, writability, maintainability etc. From all imperfect systems we choose the one we like most, where "like" is very subjective. It it gets us where we want to, it is a good choice. Some people like to program in C, other people prefer Perl, some program in Java. And some even think that HTML is a programming language. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Scaled grace (was: What can Premusic do that others can't?)
Am 21.03.2017 um 10:46 schrieb Malte Meyn: > (By the way: I think that the way LilyPond handles it (using “grace” and > “real time”) is pretty good but not perfect. \grace only needs grace > time but \afterGrace needs real time for vertical alignment (but not for > input of the notes)—it would be nice to have 1. \grace before barlines > and 2. grace/afterGrace notes that are vertically aligned indepentently > from real time notes if you don’t want them between the real notes. And > maybe 3. some function that helps to align f. e. 7 grace notes in the > right and 6 in the left hand without having to scale them by hand -> a > function that takes notes and scales them so that they get a given total > length. Maybe if I find some time I’ll make some sketches that > illustrate 2. and pseudo code that illustrates 3.) Something like this? \version "2.19.54" scaledGrace = #(define-music-function (duration mus)(fraction? ly:music?) (let* ((real-len (ly:music-length mus)) (dur (ly:make-moment (/ (car duration) (cdr duration (ratio-mom (ly:moment-div dur real-len)) (ratio (cons (ly:moment-main-numerator ratio-mom) (ly:moment-main-denominator ratio-mom #{ \grace \scaleDurations #ratio #mus #})) { << { c''2 \scaledGrace 1/4 { c''16 [ d'' e'' ] } f''2 } \\ { c'2 \scaledGrace 1/4 { c'16 b c' d' e' } f'2 } >> } ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Am 21.03.2017 um 10:18 schrieb Hans Åberg: > >> On 21 Mar 2017, at 00:40, Werner LEMBERG wrote: >> >>> As an example of what David is mentioning, have a look at the attached >>> png image (taken from Chopin's prelude op. 28/24) and try to notate >>> this. >> >> Oops, wrong image. Here's the right one. > > The whole piece, with score, is at: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIsCvQPOdcM Nice, I think I know what I’ll study next after my piano exam. Apart from that this brings to me the question how grace notes which don’t really take any time at all are compatible with Vac’s dadadada rhythm notation. (By the way: I think that the way LilyPond handles it (using “grace” and “real time”) is pretty good but not perfect. \grace only needs grace time but \afterGrace needs real time for vertical alignment (but not for input of the notes)—it would be nice to have 1. \grace before barlines and 2. grace/afterGrace notes that are vertically aligned indepentently from real time notes if you don’t want them between the real notes. And maybe 3. some function that helps to align f. e. 7 grace notes in the right and 6 in the left hand without having to scale them by hand -> a function that takes notes and scales them so that they get a given total length. Maybe if I find some time I’ll make some sketches that illustrate 2. and pseudo code that illustrates 3.) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
> On 21 Mar 2017, at 00:40, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > >> As an example of what David is mentioning, have a look at the attached >> png image (taken from Chopin's prelude op. 28/24) and try to notate >> this. > > Oops, wrong image. Here's the right one. The whole piece, with score, is at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIsCvQPOdcM ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Am 21.03.2017 um 06:46 schrieb have@anti.capital: > A composer who uses an irrational tuplet is a composer who is going out of > his way to exclude his music from comfortable notation. Oh, I think that these irrational tuplets are comfortable to write easy to understand if you use traditional notation. > I'm not too concerned about that corner case of corner cases and am frankly > honored you have to dig so deep to try and break my format. If you’re interested I’ll do a quick search and find some more music by not-cornercase-composers that breaks your format. > But in any case, there's precisely nothing to stop you from approximating as > far as you want, with an explanatory comment appended if needed. So here is the point where your format is readable neither for humans nor for computers. > Nor am I concerned if my plaintext file format is not as comfortable in > terminal editors as it is in the GUI text editors that everyone has and most > people use. So the most powerful terminal editors like vim and emacs just aren’t good enough for your genius format? Sad but probably their fault. Oh wait: It’s not the choice of editor that makes these files uncomfortable to handle with. > I note that Ctrl-U (view source) renders it perfectly in Firefox. Is anyone > going to see a .premusic file online, save it, navigate to that location in > terminal, and be dismayed that the code is a little wide for their > unmaximized Emacs? Yes, there are people that’ll do exactly this. (Ok, I prefer vim but that’s not the point here.) > If wraps become a necessity, then - fine! I'll make a wrap character. ;; Ahaha, you thought you could do a complete score in just one line? I’ll be happy to see your version of “Eine Alpensinfonie” by Richard Strauss. I can imagine some text editors crashing on that. Maybe they won’t crash if you insert line breaks but then you’ll need a very durable mouse wheel. > ----- Original Message - Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that > others can't? > From: "Werner LEMBERG" > Date: 3/21/17 12:19 am > To: have@anti.capital > Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org > > You might create a description of your syntax on, say, github, also > setting up a mailing list to which interested people can subscribe. For this description to be perfectly well-defined/unambiguous you’ll need a masochist who loves formal languages/grammars, at least if some day a computer program should be able to read these scores. And you’ll want that because no human can do so. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [Auto-Reply] Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
writes: >> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 7:45 PM, have@anti.capital wrote: >> > Viral Anticapital will get back to you shortly. >> > >> > If this is a throwaway email account, that's fine if unnecessary - >> > please remember to keep checking it, though! >> >> Seriously? > > Woah, I forgot about that. Haha, disabled signatures. Sorry folks. It wasn't a signature but an autoresponder. With a message "if you are not reading your mail messages, please do so". Seriously. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Jacques Menu Muzhic writes: > Hello Have, > > I don’t understand what you mean by square characters: can you make that more > clear? Character pairs. TTY dimensions mean that they occupy an almost square area. In an old video game I wrote, I used this kind of representation for pregenerating graphics. BBRRBLRR YYBB BBYY BBRRBBYYBBYY YYYYRRYYMMYYBBYYBLYY BBBLYYBLBBYYMMYYBBBLBLYYBLBB BLBLYYBLBLYYBLBBYYBBYYBBYYBLYYBLBLYYBLBL BBBLBLYYBLBLYYBLBLBB BBBLBLBLBLBLBLBB BBYYYYBB BLBLBLBLBBCCCCBBBLBLBLBL BBYYBBCCBBBBCCBBYYBB BBBLBLBLBLBBYYWWBBWWCCCCWWBBWWYYBBBLBLBLBLBB BBBBCCCCBBBBCCCCBBBB BLBLBLBLBLBBYYYYBBBLBLBLBLBL YYBBWWWWBBYY BLBLBLBLBLBBBBBLBLBLBLBL BBYYBBBBYYBB BBBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBBYYWWWWYYBBBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBB BBYYBBBBYYBB BLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBBBBBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBL BBBB BLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLYYYYBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBL BBYYYYBB BBBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBBYYYYBBYYBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBB BBBB BBYYBBBLBLBLBLBLBLYYBBBBYYBLBLBLBLBLBLBBYYBB YYBBBBBBBBYY YYBBBLBLBLBLBLYYCCCCYYBLBLBLBLBLBBYY BBYYBBYYMMCCYYYYCCMMYYBBYYBB BBYYBBBLBLBLBLYYBBBBYYBLBLBLBLBBYYBB BBYYCCMMBBYYBBBBYYBBMMCCYYBB BBYYCCMMBBBLBLBLBLYYCCBBBBCCYYBLBLBLBLBBMMCCYYBB BBYYCCMMBBYYCCBBBBCCYYBBMMCCYYBB BBYYCCMMBBBLBLBLBLYYCCCCYYBLBLBLBLBBMMCCYYBB BBYYCCMMBBYYCCCCYYBBMMCCYYBB BBYYCCMMBBBLBLBLBLYYYYBLBLBLBLBBMMCCYYBB BBYYCCMMCCBBBBCCMMCCYYBB BBYYMMBBBLBLBLYYYYBLBLBLBBMMYYBB BBYYMMCCBBYYYYBBCCMMYYBB YYMMCCBBYYYYBBCCMMYY YYCCCCYY BBYYYYBB YYCCCCYY BBYYYYBB It was more editable than writing
RE: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
A composer who uses an irrational tuplet is a composer who is going out of his way to exclude his music from comfortable notation. I'm not too concerned about that corner case of corner cases and am frankly honored you have to dig so deep to try and break my format. But in any case, there's precisely nothing to stop you from approximating as far as you want, with an explanatory comment appended if needed. Nor am I concerned if my plaintext file format is not as comfortable in terminal editors as it is in the GUI text editors that everyone has and most people use. I note that Ctrl-U (view source) renders it perfectly in Firefox. Is anyone going to see a .premusic file online, save it, navigate to that location in terminal, and be dismayed that the code is a little wide for their unmaximized Emacs? If wraps become a necessity, then - fine! I'll make a wrap character. ;; Happy Birthday []ly Hap___birth___Hap___birth___ []ly _-py___-day-py___-day___ []ly __to__you!__to__ []pi D4D4||E4D4G4||F$--D4D4||E4D4A4|| []rh daad||dadada||daaadaad||dadada|| []pi D4--||--D4D4||A3--A3--||--A3A3|| []pi B3--||--B3B3||F#--F#--||--F#F#|| []pi G2--G3--||G2G3G3||D2--D3--D3--||D2D3D3|| []rh daaadaaa||dadada||daaadaaadaaa||dadada|| ;; Hap___birth___..._Hap___birth_ _-py___-day___...__-py___-day_ you!__dear_to__you!___ G4--D4D4||D5B4G4||F$--E4--C5C5||B4G4A4||G4 daaadaad||dadada||daaadaaadaad||dadada||daaa-- D4--D4--||--D4D4||G4--G4--||--D4D4||D4 B3--B3--||--B3B3||E3--E3--||--B3C4||B3 G2--G3--G3--||G2G3G3||C2--C3--C3--||G2G3F#||G3G2-- daaadaaadaaa||dadada||daaadaaadaad||dadada||dada-- - Original Message - Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Werner LEMBERG" Date: 3/21/17 12:19 am To: have@anti.capital Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org > Werner, thanks for asking. I scored the second image you sent me. At > least, the parts of music exemplifying the complexity of > Chopin. Slurs and everything else have to be > discussed. http://pastebin.com/raw/APgfGgQz Here is the code, but > you will have to paste it into a text editor to disable wrap to make > it legible. Mhmm, attached you can find your version where you have `one bar per line', so to say - there's still a bar where the block length is 657 characters! Without my block breaking, the line length exceeds 1000 characters. Sorry, but this is - at least for me - completely inacceptable. A readable text file has a maximum line length of 80 characters, and it doesn't seem easy to break lines with your system manually. Needing a special editor or editor mode for writing and processing a text file is almost as worse as having a binary format... It seems that you always have to find a least common multiple for more complex stuff. I just want to mention that some composers use irrational numbers for tuplets. By the very definition, this can't be exactly represented with your system. It can't be exactly represented in lilypond either, but having large fractions doesn't make the line lengths explode. > My intent does have overlap with that of Lilypond, but I'll gladly > continue the discussion elsewhere if I'm unacceptably derailing - > I'd just ask that you suggest an elsewhere for me to take it first. > I've never started a project like this, and don't know where to go. You might create a description of your syntax on, say, github, also setting up a mailing list to which interested people can subscribe. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
> Werner, thanks for asking. I scored the second image you sent me. At > least, the parts of music exemplifying the complexity of > Chopin. Slurs and everything else have to be > discussed. http://pastebin.com/raw/APgfGgQz Here is the code, but > you will have to paste it into a text editor to disable wrap to make > it legible. Mhmm, attached you can find your version where you have `one bar per line', so to say – there's still a bar where the block length is 657 characters! Without my block breaking, the line length exceeds 1000 characters. Sorry, but this is – at least for me – completely inacceptable. A readable text file has a maximum line length of 80 characters, and it doesn't seem easy to break lines with your system manually. Needing a special editor or editor mode for writing and processing a text file is almost as worse as having a binary format... It seems that you always have to find a least common multiple for more complex stuff. I just want to mention that some composers use irrational numbers for tuplets. By the very definition, this can't be exactly represented with your system. It can't be exactly represented in lilypond either, but having large fractions doesn't make the line lengths explode. > My intent does have overlap with that of Lilypond, but I'll gladly > continue the discussion elsewhere if I'm unacceptably derailing - > I'd just ask that you suggest an elsewhere for me to take it first. > I've never started a project like this, and don't know where to go. You might create a description of your syntax on, say, github, also setting up a mailing list to which interested people can subscribe. Werner []pi G4--A4F4|| []ap G4--|| []ap F4--|| []rh daaadaaa--da|| []pi C2G2F3C2G3--C2G2F3C2G3--|| []rh dadadadadaaadadadadadaaa|| []pi C4--|| []ap || []ap || []rh daaa|| []pi C2b2F3C2G3--C2b2F3C2G3--|| []rh dadadadadaaadadadadadaaa|| []pi C4--D4--C4--B3--C4--D4--E4--F4--G4--A4--b4--C5--D5--E5--F5--G5--A5--b5--C6--D6--E6--F6--G6--A6--b6--C7--D7--E7--|| []ap || []ap || []rh daaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaadaaa|| []pi C2b2E3C2G3-
RE: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Very good, Jeffery, maybe the others can contribute to my study of methods of pronunciation of "dadadaaa". Werner, thanks for asking. I scored the second image you sent me. At least, the parts of music exemplifying the complexity of Chopin. Slurs and everything else have to be discussed. http://pastebin.com/raw/APgfGgQz Here is the code, but you will have to paste it into a text editor to disable wrap to make it legible. There's probably a few ways we could do the appogiatura, aside from that I used. We'll have to discuss it once a group is going. Any other challenges? Anyone else care to score that piece in ABC or Guido or anything simpler than Lilypond or MusicXML? If not, I'll be taking the "perfect plaintext file format for premusic" award, Simon, thank you very much. My intent does have overlap with that of Lilypond, but I'll gladly continue the discussion elsewhere if I'm unacceptably derailing - I'd just ask that you suggest an elsewhere for me to take it first. I've never started a project like this, and don't know where to go. VAC ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Werner LEMBERG" Date: 3/20/17 6:40 pm To: d...@gnu.org Cc: have@anti.capital, lilypond-user@gnu.org > As an example of what David is mentioning, have a look at the attached > png image (taken from Chopin's prelude op. 28/24) and try to notate > this. Oops, wrong image. Here's the right one. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: I have invented the perfect plaintext file format for premusic. Sorry, but I find this preposterous as well as amusing… You really need to be somewhat aware of the complexity of the problem, before you can start a salespitch for the solution. Yours, Simon ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Fwd: Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 8:20 PM Subject: RE: Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? To: Jeffery Shivers I'm interested to know how you would pronounce the phrase "Can't anyone read 'dadadaaa'?". Could you supply an audio recording? I have a hypothesis that you and most anyone would pronounce it more or less exactly as would accurately represent two quarter notes and a half note. What's more, should that be the case, then it renders my format's rhythm intelligible to a newly literate three-year-old with less instruction than any part of sheet music, and it becomes pointless to obfuscate the meaning by using any symbols other than "dadadaaa". --------- Original Message - Subject: Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Jeffery Shivers" Date: 3/20/17 6:44 pm To: have@anti.capital, "Lilypond-User Mailing List" On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > []tm 108 > []dy ff > > Fermatas I want to discuss with others before I make very specific plans. I > don't see much reason for an entire newline of squares for fermatas, when > "daa!" could be equivalent to "daaa" with a fermata. That's just one way to > do it. > > > - Original Message - > Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? > From: "Malte Meyn" > Date: 3/20/17 5:14 pm > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > > > > Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: >> These are the first measures of Beethoven's Fifth in premusic. > > This is missing tempo, fermatas and dynamics. > > ___________ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > > > > > - Original Message - > Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? > From: "David Kastrup" > Date: 3/20/17 5:16 pm > To: have@anti.capital > Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org > > writes: > >> Why don't I ask you to name a notation that does something that >> Parallel Squares could NOT do? Or, if I reversed the roles, and every >> tune on http://abcnotation.com were in my notation, and I approached, >> telling you about the ABC or GUIDO notation I invented, would you see >> any merit in it, or any real reason to implement ABC or GUIDO... Ever? > > Sure. LilyPond was created by the same authors who wrote Mpp, a music > preprocessor for MusiXTeX which is somewhat similarly compact and > cryptic as your proposal. > > Semilinear notations haven't made the race in math (how great it would > be if you'd express every mathematical formula in FORTRAN, how easy to > understand and derive proofs, right?) or in music (Gregorian neumes are > basically linearly written and preceded the square notation which > followed it). > > How do you expect to notate heptuplets against trioles? Least common > multiple? Good luck reading your voice as set against that of other > voices and figuring out the relation to the beat. Have you tried > setting some polyrhythmic Chopin with your system and actually _playing_ > it? > > What is your actual musical background and proficiency? > >> But in any case, I am not a programmer, and have never participated in >> the creation of free software. > > Are you a musician? What instrument do you play at what level of > proficiency? > >> Before you dismiss my format, and now that you have a sense for how it >> works, I implore you to at least try composing in a text editor, any >> piece of music, simple for now, to feel how natural it is. Think about >> what this could do - one could comfortably convey all the information >> conveyed by sheet music, using only notepad.exe. > > Reality check: LilyPond source can be written using only notepad.exe and > conveys all the information written down. So can abc. So can Mpp, > MusixTeX, MuTeX and others. > >> There's nothing like it. > > That is not valuable in itself. > > -- > David Kastrup > > I am having trouble finding examples of MPP code to look at. Could you help > me out? And what about my code is so cryptic? Can't anyone read a > "dadadaaa"? No. Probably for the same reason *anyone* can't just read binary code. You might be able to sell that to those violin playing robots in Japan though. > > I want to look at algebra at a later date. I feel it's fallen victim to the > same issues as premusic - over-reverence of centuries-old notation - but I > don't yet have an easy solution. It's more than just linearity - it
Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Please trim quotes in replies. On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, Jeffery Shivers wrote: > On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > > me out? And what about my code is so cryptic? Can't anyone read a > > "dadadaaa"? > > No. Probably for the same reason *anyone* can't just read binary code. > > You might be able to sell that to those violin playing robots in Japan though. I think they would prefer "ダダダーー". ASCII isn't universal and there are good reasons for Unicode, even the parts that are hard to type on "the keyboard everybody has." -- Matthew Skala msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Re: [Auto-Reply] Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Woah, I forgot about that. Haha, disabled signatures. Sorry folks. - Original Message - Subject: Re: [Auto-Reply] Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Jeffery Shivers" Date: 3/20/17 6:49 pm To: "Lilypond-User Mailing List" On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 7:45 PM, have@anti.capital wrote: > Viral Anticapital will get back to you shortly. > > If this is a throwaway email account, that's fine if unnecessary - please > remember to keep checking it, though! Seriously? -- Jeffery Shivers jefferyshivers.com soundcloud.com/jefferyshivers ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Shouldn’t this discussion be happening elsewhere? The relevance to Lilypond is what exactly? best, jc > On Mar 20, 2017, at 5:42 PM, Jacques Menu Muzhic > wrote: > > Hello Have, > > I don’t understand what you mean by square characters: can you make that more > clear? > > There are text editors you can use I guess for the parallel aspect of what > seems to be a measure-wise notation IIUC, i.e. those that offer block-mode > editing such as Win-EDT on Windows. > > There’s a tree structure in nearly all music, written or played: parts are > performed in parallel, each of them made of voices. The latter usually get > grouped into staves for reading and organisation commodity, and repeats, da > capos and codas add more structure to that. An organ music score is an > example of such a tree. > > All text notations used to represent trees have a difficult problem. MusicXML > is not meant to be used by composers or music aficionados, it is an exchange > format designed for use by computer applications. The order of the various > markups such as and is defined by a DTD. > > In the example below, the contains the sharp , but the > dynamic occurs before it. It could have been placed inside the > too, though. Such design choices were not made at random, there are reasons > behind them. > > > > > > > > > > > C > 1 > 4 > > 16 > 1 > half > sharp > > > In this other example, there’s a partgroup containing two parts, one for each > flute, with respective parts « 1 » and « 2 » sharing a single staff as is > often the case in orchestral scores. > > > > Flutes > Fl. > > Fl. > > > 2 > 74 > > > > > 1 > 2 > yes > > > And the horns sections is a sub-partgroup in this score, with 4 voices > grouped into two staves. MusicXML precisely is weird in this area BTW: it > does not represent a staff group (tree of groups) as a tree, by allows for « > intelaced groups », which is arguable: > > > > How do you represent such complex structures with Premusic? > > JM > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Hello Have, I don’t understand what you mean by square characters: can you make that more clear? There are text editors you can use I guess for the parallel aspect of what seems to be a measure-wise notation IIUC, i.e. those that offer block-mode editing such as Win-EDT on Windows. There’s a tree structure in nearly all music, written or played: parts are performed in parallel, each of them made of voices. The latter usually get grouped into staves for reading and organisation commodity, and repeats, da capos and codas add more structure to that. An organ music score is an example of such a tree. All text notations used to represent trees have a difficult problem. MusicXML is not meant to be used by composers or music aficionados, it is an exchange format designed for use by computer applications. The order of the various markups such as and is defined by a DTD. In the example below, the contains the sharp , but the dynamic occurs before it. It could have been placed inside the too, though. Such design choices were not made at random, there are reasons behind them. C 1 4 16 1 half sharp In this other example, there’s a partgroup containing two parts, one for each flute, with respective parts « 1 » and « 2 » sharing a single staff as is often the case in orchestral scores. Flutes Fl. Fl. 2 74 1 2 yes And the horns sections is a sub-partgroup in this score, with 4 voices grouped into two staves. MusicXML precisely is weird in this area BTW: it does not represent a staff group (tree of groups) as a tree, by allows for « intelaced groups », which is arguable: How do you represent such complex structures with Premusic? JM ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [Auto-Reply] Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 7:45 PM, have@anti.capital wrote: > Viral Anticapital will get back to you shortly. > > If this is a throwaway email account, that's fine if unnecessary - please > remember to keep checking it, though! Seriously? -- Jeffery Shivers jefferyshivers.com soundcloud.com/jefferyshivers ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
> As an example of what David is mentioning, have a look at the attached > png image (taken from Chopin's prelude op. 28/24) and try to notate > this. Oops, wrong image. Here's the right one. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > []tm 108 > []dy ff > > Fermatas I want to discuss with others before I make very specific plans. I > don't see much reason for an entire newline of squares for fermatas, when > "daa!" could be equivalent to "daaa" with a fermata. That's just one way to > do it. > > > - Original Message ----- > Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? > From: "Malte Meyn" > Date: 3/20/17 5:14 pm > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > > > > Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: >> These are the first measures of Beethoven's Fifth in premusic. > > This is missing tempo, fermatas and dynamics. > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > > > > > - Original Message - > Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? > From: "David Kastrup" > Date: 3/20/17 5:16 pm > To: have@anti.capital > Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org > > writes: > >> Why don't I ask you to name a notation that does something that >> Parallel Squares could NOT do? Or, if I reversed the roles, and every >> tune on http://abcnotation.com were in my notation, and I approached, >> telling you about the ABC or GUIDO notation I invented, would you see >> any merit in it, or any real reason to implement ABC or GUIDO... Ever? > > Sure. LilyPond was created by the same authors who wrote Mpp, a music > preprocessor for MusiXTeX which is somewhat similarly compact and > cryptic as your proposal. > > Semilinear notations haven't made the race in math (how great it would > be if you'd express every mathematical formula in FORTRAN, how easy to > understand and derive proofs, right?) or in music (Gregorian neumes are > basically linearly written and preceded the square notation which > followed it). > > How do you expect to notate heptuplets against trioles? Least common > multiple? Good luck reading your voice as set against that of other > voices and figuring out the relation to the beat. Have you tried > setting some polyrhythmic Chopin with your system and actually _playing_ > it? > > What is your actual musical background and proficiency? > >> But in any case, I am not a programmer, and have never participated in >> the creation of free software. > > Are you a musician? What instrument do you play at what level of > proficiency? > >> Before you dismiss my format, and now that you have a sense for how it >> works, I implore you to at least try composing in a text editor, any >> piece of music, simple for now, to feel how natural it is. Think about >> what this could do - one could comfortably convey all the information >> conveyed by sheet music, using only notepad.exe. > > Reality check: LilyPond source can be written using only notepad.exe and > conveys all the information written down. So can abc. So can Mpp, > MusixTeX, MuTeX and others. > >> There's nothing like it. > > That is not valuable in itself. > > -- > David Kastrup > > I am having trouble finding examples of MPP code to look at. Could you help > me out? And what about my code is so cryptic? Can't anyone read a > "dadadaaa"? No. Probably for the same reason *anyone* can't just read binary code. You might be able to sell that to those violin playing robots in Japan though. > > I want to look at algebra at a later date. I feel it's fallen victim to the > same issues as premusic - over-reverence of centuries-old notation - but I > don't yet have an easy solution. It's more than just linearity - it's about > designing a file format with a keyboard from the ground up, and not writing > the information down on paper as has been done for centuries and basing your > file format off of that. > > Yes, least common multiple for your obscure polyrhythms. It would work, and > unless we start talking about pi-lets, it's the sensible way. > > I play guitar and a few instruments very well by most people's standards, > though I'm sure many of you would outshine me. I compose much music that is > at least a little complicated, and out of frustration with all existing > notation softwares prior to my format, I have never scored it. But who cares > if I only play the tinwhistle? It doesn't make my file format into any less > of the most sensible plaintext file format for premusic. > > So Lilypond and MusixTex can be agonizingly written down by hand. They > weren't optimized for that purpose, and are designe
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: > MusicXML […] but it is an unwise solution here. As you mentioned several times, you’re not a programmer so probably others know a little better about how to store music in a way that programs can easily read. > ABC […] lacks the perfect and intuitive vertical extensibility of Premusic. PSP might be relatively easy to describe/define. But not intuitive (think of D# for D sharp 3, which should be D§ on a german and Dℓ on a neo keyboard layout). > Extensibility speaks for itself. […] Every column of squares can be > elaborated on by putting more information above it. So for double sharps/flats: []ac + - []pi G#G#G3g3g3 Very clever. > It looks to be compatible with even the most complicated music. It's very > easy to read and compose […] No (see David’s tuplet example), no and no. > I have invented the perfect plaintext file format for premusic. “Perfect” is a strong word but I’m sure you perfectly know what you’re talking about. > Before you dismiss my format, […] I implore you to at least try composing in > a text editor. I do it all the time: Frescobaldi is the editor of my choice. So now that I’ve ranted about things that others have thought about more than me I feel a bit sorry. I’ll try not to do so again. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
[]tm 108 []dy ff Fermatas I want to discuss with others before I make very specific plans. I don't see much reason for an entire newline of squares for fermatas, when "daa!" could be equivalent to "daaa" with a fermata. That's just one way to do it. - Original Message ----- Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "Malte Meyn" Date: 3/20/17 5:14 pm To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: > These are the first measures of Beethoven's Fifth in premusic. This is missing tempo, fermatas and dynamics. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user --------- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't? From: "David Kastrup" Date: 3/20/17 5:16 pm To: have@anti.capital Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org writes: > Why don't I ask you to name a notation that does something that > Parallel Squares could NOT do? Or, if I reversed the roles, and every > tune on http://abcnotation.com were in my notation, and I approached, > telling you about the ABC or GUIDO notation I invented, would you see > any merit in it, or any real reason to implement ABC or GUIDO... Ever? Sure. LilyPond was created by the same authors who wrote Mpp, a music preprocessor for MusiXTeX which is somewhat similarly compact and cryptic as your proposal. Semilinear notations haven't made the race in math (how great it would be if you'd express every mathematical formula in FORTRAN, how easy to understand and derive proofs, right?) or in music (Gregorian neumes are basically linearly written and preceded the square notation which followed it). How do you expect to notate heptuplets against trioles? Least common multiple? Good luck reading your voice as set against that of other voices and figuring out the relation to the beat. Have you tried setting some polyrhythmic Chopin with your system and actually _playing_ it? What is your actual musical background and proficiency? > But in any case, I am not a programmer, and have never participated in > the creation of free software. Are you a musician? What instrument do you play at what level of proficiency? > Before you dismiss my format, and now that you have a sense for how it > works, I implore you to at least try composing in a text editor, any > piece of music, simple for now, to feel how natural it is. Think about > what this could do - one could comfortably convey all the information > conveyed by sheet music, using only notepad.exe. Reality check: LilyPond source can be written using only notepad.exe and conveys all the information written down. So can abc. So can Mpp, MusixTeX, MuTeX and others. > There's nothing like it. That is not valuable in itself. -- David Kastrup I am having trouble finding examples of MPP code to look at. Could you help me out? And what about my code is so cryptic? Can't anyone read a "dadadaaa"? I want to look at algebra at a later date. I feel it's fallen victim to the same issues as premusic - over-reverence of centuries-old notation - but I don't yet have an easy solution. It's more than just linearity - it's about designing a file format with a keyboard from the ground up, and not writing the information down on paper as has been done for centuries and basing your file format off of that. Yes, least common multiple for your obscure polyrhythms. It would work, and unless we start talking about pi-lets, it's the sensible way. I play guitar and a few instruments very well by most people's standards, though I'm sure many of you would outshine me. I compose much music that is at least a little complicated, and out of frustration with all existing notation softwares prior to my format, I have never scored it. But who cares if I only play the tinwhistle? It doesn't make my file format into any less of the most sensible plaintext file format for premusic. So Lilypond and MusixTex can be agonizingly written down by hand. They weren't optimized for that purpose, and are designed to render in an entirely different and intensive layout - mine can be comfortably and quickly composed in AND displayed and read in notepad.exe. Again, I implore you to at least try composing music in my format. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
writes: > Why don't I ask you to name a notation that does something that > Parallel Squares could NOT do? Or, if I reversed the roles, and every > tune on http://abcnotation.com were in my notation, and I approached, > telling you about the ABC or GUIDO notation I invented, would you see > any merit in it, or any real reason to implement ABC or GUIDO... Ever? Sure. LilyPond was created by the same authors who wrote Mpp, a music preprocessor for MusiXTeX which is somewhat similarly compact and cryptic as your proposal. Semilinear notations haven't made the race in math (how great it would be if you'd express every mathematical formula in FORTRAN, how easy to understand and derive proofs, right?) or in music (Gregorian neumes are basically linearly written and preceded the square notation which followed it). How do you expect to notate heptuplets against trioles? Least common multiple? Good luck reading your voice as set against that of other voices and figuring out the relation to the beat. Have you tried setting some polyrhythmic Chopin with your system and actually _playing_ it? What is your actual musical background and proficiency? > But in any case, I am not a programmer, and have never participated in > the creation of free software. Are you a musician? What instrument do you play at what level of proficiency? > Before you dismiss my format, and now that you have a sense for how it > works, I implore you to at least try composing in a text editor, any > piece of music, simple for now, to feel how natural it is. Think about > what this could do - one could comfortably convey all the information > conveyed by sheet music, using only notepad.exe. Reality check: LilyPond source can be written using only notepad.exe and conveys all the information written down. So can abc. So can Mpp, MusixTeX, MuTeX and others. > There's nothing like it. That is not valuable in itself. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
Am 20.03.2017 um 22:48 schrieb have@anti.capital: > These are the first measures of Beethoven's Fifth in premusic. This is missing tempo, fermatas and dynamics. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
What can Premusic do that others can't?
Well, let's think about this. Sheet music, which I prefer to call sheet premusic, was developed over centuries to be comfortably written by hand. In the year 2017, premusic is encoded into a computer via really complicated file formats like MusicXML or Lilypond designed to describe sheet premusic written on paper exactly as it has been for centuries. There's no simple way to fully describe sheet music, because it isn't optimized for the computer environment. MusicXML and Lilypond are the .docx and .odt of the field, if you will, and Sibelius and Finale are Microsoft Words - where is the notepad.exe? There is none, because no equivalent of the .txt file format of full competence has been made. I'll look at all relevant formats here: Lilypond I have nothing to say about Lilypond. Sheet music will always exist and always be used, and it is important that there exist a free file format like Lilypond for computer composition of sheet music. I simply think there needs to be a competent plaintext option, and there is none. MusicXML MusicXML is especially odd to me... In an XHTML document, what comes after a ? Who knows? It could be an , a , anything. In music, what comes after a note? Another note - or a space where a note should be. Music is plainly linear where XML is not optimized for linear information. XML may seem the most obvious choice for an 'industry standard' file format for many things, but it is an unwise solution here. In any case, it's not something you'd compose in a text editor. ABC notation X:1 T:The Legacy Jig M:6/8 L:1/8 R:jig K:G GFG BAB | gfg gab | GFG BAB | d2A AFD | GFG BAB | gfg gab | age edB |1 dBA AFD :|2 dBA ABd |: efe edB | dBA ABd | efe edB | gdB ABd | efe edB | d2d def | gfe edB |1 dBA ABd :|2 dBA AFD |] ABC is simple, likely quickly intelligible by most everyone with a music theory background, but it is a shorthand form of musical notation. This already implies it is lacking in some way: namely, it lacks the perfect and intuitive vertical extensibility of Premusic. GUIDO notation: [ \clef<"treble"> \key<"D"> \meter<"4/4"> a1*1/2 b a/4. g/8 f#/4 g a/2 b a/4. g/8 f#/4 g a/2 a b c#2/4 d c#/2 b1 a/1 ] GUIDO is simple, but not quite as quickly intelligible without explanation as ABC or my format. GUIDO lacks the perfect and intuitive extensibility of my format, and isn't nearly as easy on the eyes. MIDI: MIDI is not plaintext, where plaintext would suffice. It is a black mark for a file not to be legible in a text editor. It's more code before any software dealing with it can be functional. Premusic These are the first measures of Beethoven's Fifth in premusic. Symphony no. 5 (Page 1) Beethoven #!sh key=Cm Clarinet #!pi --G4G4G4||e4||--F4F4F4||D4||--||||||||--||||||||--|||||||| #!rh --dadada||da||--dadada||da||aa||||||||--||||||||--|||||||| Bassoon #!pi ||--||||--||--||||C4--||||--||||B3--||||--||||C4--||B3--|| #!rh ||--||||--||--||||daaa||||aa||||daaa||||aa||||daaa||daaa|| Violin I #!pi --G4G4G4||e4||--F4F4F4||D4||--||||||--e5e5e5||C5||||||--F5F5F5||D5||--G5G5F5||e5--||D5G5G5F5|| #!rh --dadada||da||--dadada||da||aa||||||--dadada||da||||||--dadada||da||aadadada||daaa||aadadada|| Violin II #!pi --G4G4G4||e4||--F4F4F4||D4||--||--G4G4G4||e4--||||--||--G4G4G4||D4--||||G4||||--e4e4F4||G4--|| #!rh --dadada||da||--dadada||da||aa||--dadada||daaa||||aa||aadadada||daaa||||da||||aadadada||daaa|| Viola #!pi --G3G3G3||e3||--F3F3F3||D3||--||||--a4a4a4||G4--||--||||--a4a4a4||G4--||D4||||e4e4e4F4||G4--|| #!rh --dadada||da||--dadada||da||aa||||--dadada||daaa||aa||||--dadada||daaa||da||||dadadada||daaa|| Cello #!pi --G2G2G2||e2||--F2F2F2||D2||--||||C4--||||--||||B3--||||--||||C4--||B3--|| #!rh --dadada||da||--dadada||da||aa||||daaa||||aa||||daaa||||aa||||daaa||daaa|| Bass #!pi --G3G3G3||e3||--F3F3F3||D3||--||||||||--||||||||--|||||||| #!rh --dadada||da||--dadada||da||aa||||||||--||||||||--|||||||| My format is intelligible to anyone with a music theory background, with minimal instruction besides perhaps to read pairs of characters rather than individual ones. "rh"ythm - You need no background to pronounce "dadadaaa", and having done so, you will have conveyed to yourself a rh