Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Linn]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 8:22 PM David Wright 
wrote:

>
> Some are available through links; just not the ones given in the digest.
> I don't know the particulars of your example because I had already
> deleted it (not interested in chord mode) by the time I read your posting.


...

>
> I pointed this out to the powers that be at gnu.org a while back,
> but that might have been sent too high up the chain of admin. So
> I'll try copying David Linn into this email instead.
>

I have also pointed this out to the powers that be at gnu.org, specifically
the GNU Mailman management team for list.gnu.org, and have never gotten a
response.
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Re: attachments and digest mode

[Tim Reeves]

> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 11:26:17 -0700
> From: Flaming Hakama by Elaine <ela...@flaminghakama.com>
> To: Lilypond-User Mailing List <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: attachments and digest mode
> Message-ID:
>

Re: attachments and digest mode

[Carl Sorensen]

On 5/6/16 10:05 AM, "David Wright"  wrote:

>On Fri 06 May 2016 at 15:08:30 (+), Carl Sorensen wrote:
>> On 5/5/16 8:13 PM, "Cynthia Karl"  wrote:
>> >> On May 5, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> At my configuration page for lilyond-user I select digest mode, MIME.
>> When I do this, the emails in the digest show up as attachments to the
>> digest email, and I must read them in preview mode in Outlook.  If I
>>then
>> open one of the attached digest emails, I can reply to that single
>>email,
>> and all of the attachments work properly.
>
>Is the attached the page in question?
>https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Yes, from that page you enter your email address in the lowest entry box,
and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".  You will ten get to this page:

https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/lilypond-user

>
>
>What's lilypond-auto all about?

It's a lilypond list aimed at developers; it tracks the progress of
patches through the review process.

>> list.  BTW, MIME mode is what GNU recommends.
>
>Where?

On the options page: https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/lilypond-user

One of the options has the following text:


Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?

Your mail reader may or may not support MIME digests. In general MIME
digests are preferred, but if you have a problem reading them, select
plain text digests.



Hope this helps,

Carl


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Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Wright]

On Fri 06 May 2016 at 15:08:30 (+), Carl Sorensen wrote:
> On 5/5/16 8:13 PM, "Cynthia Karl"  wrote:
> >> On May 5, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> >> On 5/4/16 8:00 PM, "Cynthia Karl"  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> In my experience, all are available through links, but never the ones
> >>> given in the digest.
> >> 
> >> Links on digest work for me, but I get them in a special mode on Outlook.
> >
> >The special mode must originate with the digest sender, because I can¹t
> >imagine how Outlook could otherwise convert the links I get into the
> >actual links.
> >
> >What mode is it?  Can you send me in private an example of such a digest?
> 
> At my configuration page for lilyond-user I select digest mode, MIME.
> When I do this, the emails in the digest show up as attachments to the
> digest email, and I must read them in preview mode in Outlook.  If I then
> open one of the attached digest emails, I can reply to that single email,
> and all of the attachments work properly.

Is the attached the page in question?
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

> In contrast, I have set lilypond-auto to give me plain text digests.  This
> creates a single plain text email with all of the individual emails
> concatenated below as plain text.  On this list there are no attachments,
> so I don't know if the attachment links work or not.

What's lilypond-auto all about?

> Plain text mode is easier to read; MIME mode is easier to reply to.  I
> used to hate MIME mode because it was harder to read, but now I have
> figured out how to work with it in Outlook.  So I like it for the user
> list.  BTW, MIME mode is what GNU recommends.

Where?

Cheers,
David.


lilypond-user-subscription-page.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: attachments and digest mode

[Carl Sorensen]

On 5/5/16 8:13 PM, "Cynthia Karl"  wrote:

>
>> On May 5, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/4/16 8:00 PM, "Cynthia Karl"  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> In my experience, all are available through links, but never the ones
>>> given in the digest.
>> 
>> Links on digest work for me, but I get them in a special mode on
>>Outlook.
>
>The special mode must originate with the digest sender, because I can¹t
>imagine how Outlook could otherwise convert the links I get into the
>actual links.
>
>What mode is it?  Can you send me in private an example of such a digest?

At my configuration page for lilyond-user I select digest mode, MIME.
When I do this, the emails in the digest show up as attachments to the
digest email, and I must read them in preview mode in Outlook.  If I then
open one of the attached digest emails, I can reply to that single email,
and all of the attachments work properly.

In contrast, I have set lilypond-auto to give me plain text digests.  This
creates a single plain text email with all of the individual emails
concatenated below as plain text.  On this list there are no attachments,
so I don't know if the attachment links work or not.

Plain text mode is easier to read; MIME mode is easier to reply to.  I
used to hate MIME mode because it was harder to read, but now I have
figured out how to work with it in Outlook.  So I like it for the user
list.  BTW, MIME mode is what GNU recommends.

Thanks,

Carl




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Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Wright]

On Thu 05 May 2016 at 11:26:17 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> > This thread is dying a quick death.  I have raised this issue with the
> > nonsensical digest attachments several times in the last several years.
> > Those threads also died a quick death.  I wonder how many get the Lilypond
> > user list via the digest rather than as individual emails.  I would guess
> > maybe 4 or 5 get the digest, or else this issue would get at least a little
> > attention.
> 
> Another theory is that most people post code inline, so the use of
> attachments is a marginal practice in general, and therefore not worth the
> effort.

"Inline" is an ambiguous term. I understand that you probably mean
%
%{ an inline example %}
%

but there's a more "interesting" meaning in this discussion which is
where people post an inline image in their HTML code. These are not
displayed to people reading emails as text, not are they accessible to
people reading the digest (unless they're using Carl Sorensen's
"special mode" on Outlook).

> I certainly ignore messages that have code only in attachments.  Of course,
> that is by necessity since I can't access these attachments.  But I don't
> feel like I've been left out of much follow-up discussion on that basis,
> since it seems like most replies are inline.
> 
> In most cases, I assume attachments are used because the poster has not
> bothered to create a minimal example.  Because if they did, it would be
> easier to include the code as part of their actual message.

Well, the last attachments I sent were fairly close to minimal for the
problem in hand (making LilyPond run the python interpreter to write LP
code which LP immediately interprets in the same run).

[-- Attachment #2: make-cake.py --]
[-- Type: text/x-python, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 0.1K --]

outfile = open('eat-me.ly', 'w')
print('{ c\'4 }', file=outfile)

[-- Attachment #3: yummy.ly --]
[-- Type: text/x-lilypond, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 0.1K --]

pyMx =
#(define-void-function (parser location)()
(system "python3 make-cake.py")
  )

\pyMx

\include "eat-me.ly"

[-- Attachment #4: yummy.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Encoding: base64, Size: 25K --]

[-- application/pdf is unsupported (use 'v' to view this part) --]

[-- Attachment #5: eat-me.ly --]
[-- Type: text/x-lilypond, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 0.1K --]

{ c'4 }

[-- Attachment #6 --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 0.1K --]

___

> (Of course, there are some cases where attachments are more appropriate.
> But there are workarounds--you can always just ask the poster to resend you
> the attachments in a private email if you feel compelled to help out.  So,
> this issue is not a deal-breaker for me.)
> 
> > Did you succeed in copying David Linn?  Did you get a response?  I don?t
> > think he?s responded on the list.  Do you know any powers that be at
> > gnu.org that are a little lower in the hierarchy?
> 
> I have not made any attempts to contact anyone specific.
> 
> My assumption is that anyone managing a list also reads it.  If not, the
> list needs a new or additional manager, or a liaison.

Yes, but a person who volunteered (or was asked) to manage a list may
not be deal with technical problems such as those we are discussing.
I sent my original observations to webmast...@gnu.org but, as I said,
that might be *too* far up the chain.

Here's the text (inline!):

✂✂

Subject: Broken link

Could you tell me why this link does not exist on your server?

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160312/6eba7c13/attachment.png

I have taken this link from the following email which is a
lilypond-user digest:

Message-ID: 

The first message in this digest has a "scrubbed" attachment.
An email version of this message received directly from the list would
have this attachment. The digest contains the link above in its place.
There is no obvious route by which the attachment is available.

Interestingly however, the attachment *is* available on your server
but at a different address. In this case it is:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-03/pngHJxj6irVRF.png

Why is this address not given in the digest?

Cheers,
David.

✂✂

Perhaps it was too matter-of-fact.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Wright]

On Fri 06 May 2016 at 00:05:03 (+), Carl Sorensen wrote:
> On 5/4/16 8:00 PM, "Cynthia Karl" <pck...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Message: 4
> >> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:21:28 -0500
> >> From: David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
> >> To: Flaming Hakama by Elaine <ela...@flaminghakama.com>
> >> Subject: Re: attachments and digest mode
> >> 
> >> On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:05:05 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
> >>> attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.
> >>> 
> >>> Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds a
> >>> 404 error.
> >>> 
> >>> Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the digest,
> >>> nor are they available through links?
> >> 
> >> Some are available through links; just not the ones given in the digest.
> >> I don't know the particulars of your example because I had already
> >> deleted it (not interested in chord mode) by the time I read your
> >>posting.
> >
> >In my experience, all are available through links, but never the ones
> >given in the digest.
> 
> Links on digest work for me, but I get them in a special mode on Outlook.

That's interesting, but not very informative. What do these links look
like? Where precisely do they occur in the digest? Are they in a
section that looks like:

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: mark.png
Type: image/png
Size: 18016 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160502/e0c2e10b/attachment.png>

--

Do the link addresses look like the above or like this:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-05/pngMsAi5Dk5bC.png

What's the "special mode"? (I don't use Outlook but my wife does.)

Cheers,
David.

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Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Wright]

On Wed 04 May 2016 at 21:00:22 (-0500), Cynthia Karl wrote:
> 
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:21:28 -0500
> > From: David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
> > To: Flaming Hakama by Elaine <ela...@flaminghakama.com>
> > Subject: Re: attachments and digest mode
> > 
> > On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:05:05 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> > 
> >> I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
> >> attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.
> >> 
> >> Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds a
> >> 404 error.
> >> 
> >> Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the digest,
> >> nor are they available through links?
> > 
> > Some are available through links; just not the ones given in the digest.
> > I don't know the particulars of your example because I had already
> > deleted it (not interested in chord mode) by the time I read your posting.
> 
> In my experience, all are available through links, but never the ones given 
> in the digest.

You're probably right. I think I might in the past have looked for a
scrubbed html attachment and forgotten that lots of digest messages
have one of these, and I can only assume they're the html alternative
of a text/html multipart pair.

> > I pointed this out to the powers that be at gnu.org a while back,
> > but that might have been sent too high up the chain of admin. So
> > I'll try copying David Linn into this email instead.
> 
> This thread is dying a quick death.  I have raised this issue with the 
> nonsensical digest attachments several times in the last several years.  
> Those threads also died a quick death.  I wonder how many get the Lilypond 
> user list via the digest rather than as individual emails.  I would guess 
> maybe 4 or 5 get the digest, or else this issue would get at least a little 
> attention. 
> 
> Did you succeed in copying David Linn?

Yes, I sent a personal greeting, and also copied him into the post on
the list.

> Did you get a response?

Not yet.

> I don’t think he’s responded on the list.  Do you know any powers that be at 
> gnu.org that are a little lower in the hierarchy?

'Fraid not.

> Does anyone that gets the digest receive valid attachment URLs?

I don't think that's possible. I don't see an option for subscribing
to the digest in any other format than plain text.

Cheers,
David.

PS you don't need to Cc me, though I don't mind if you do.
(I set my Reply-To: to the list.)

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Re: attachments and digest mode

[Cynthia Karl]

> On May 5, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/4/16 8:00 PM, "Cynthia Karl"  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> In my experience, all are available through links, but never the ones
>> given in the digest.
> 
> Links on digest work for me, but I get them in a special mode on Outlook.

The special mode must originate with the digest sender, because I can’t imagine 
how Outlook could otherwise convert the links I get into the actual links.

What mode is it?  Can you send me in private an example of such a digest?

Thanks,
Pat

> 
> Carl


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Re: attachments and digest mode

[Carl Sorensen]

On 5/4/16 8:00 PM, "Cynthia Karl" <pck...@mac.com> wrote:

>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:21:28 -0500
>> From: David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
>> To: Flaming Hakama by Elaine <ela...@flaminghakama.com>
>> Subject: Re: attachments and digest mode
>> 
>> On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:05:05 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
>> 
>>> I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
>>> attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.
>>> 
>>> Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds
>>>a
>>> 404 error.
>>> 
>>> Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the
>>>digest,
>>> nor are they available through links?
>> 
>> Some are available through links; just not the ones given in the digest.
>> I don't know the particulars of your example because I had already
>> deleted it (not interested in chord mode) by the time I read your
>>posting.
>
>In my experience, all are available through links, but never the ones
>given in the digest.

Links on digest work for me, but I get them in a special mode on Outlook.

Carl


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Re: attachments and digest mode

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

> This thread is dying a quick death.  I have raised this issue with the
> nonsensical digest attachments several times in the last several years.
> Those threads also died a quick death.  I wonder how many get the Lilypond
> user list via the digest rather than as individual emails.  I would guess
> maybe 4 or 5 get the digest, or else this issue would get at least a little
> attention.
>

Another theory is that most people post code inline, so the use of
attachments is a marginal practice in general, and therefore not worth the
effort.

I certainly ignore messages that have code only in attachments.  Of course,
that is by necessity since I can't access these attachments.  But I don't
feel like I've been left out of much follow-up discussion on that basis,
since it seems like most replies are inline.

In most cases, I assume attachments are used because the poster has not
bothered to create a minimal example.  Because if they did, it would be
easier to include the code as part of their actual message.

(Of course, there are some cases where attachments are more appropriate.
But there are workarounds--you can always just ask the poster to resend you
the attachments in a private email if you feel compelled to help out.  So,
this issue is not a deal-breaker for me.)



> Did you succeed in copying David Linn?  Did you get a response?  I don?t
> think he?s responded on the list.  Do you know any powers that be at
> gnu.org that are a little lower in the hierarchy?
>

I have not made any attempts to contact anyone specific.

My assumption is that anyone managing a list also reads it.  If not, the
list needs a new or additional manager, or a liaison.



David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Wright]

On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:05:05 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:

> I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
> attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.
> 
> Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds a
> 404 error.
> 
> Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the digest,
> nor are they available through links?

Some are available through links; just not the ones given in the digest.
I don't know the particulars of your example because I had already
deleted it (not interested in chord mode) by the time I read your posting.

But to take a different example, the posting shown at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-04/msg00705.html
had two images as attachments which the digest gave as
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160427/51250681/attachment.png
and
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160427/51250681/attachment-0001.png
but they are actually located at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-04/pngft2OJWNLXh.png
and
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-04/pngjr7tJK6b8c.png

I pointed this out to the powers that be at gnu.org a while back,
but that might have been sent too high up the chain of admin. So
I'll try copying David Linn into this email instead.

Cheers,
David.

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attachments and digest mode

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

I certainly have my preferences about mailing list etiquette (text-only,
bottom-posting, code examples inline, publish images on an external web
site and include inline links to the images.)

However, I realize that these are only personal preferences and should have
no real effect on the discussion, and even less on the course of the actual
mailing list rules or guidelines.

I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.

Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds a
404 error.

Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the digest,
nor are they available through links?


(Are you ready for some top posting, doubled down with formatted text
inserted thanks to the default use of copying from a web page and pasting
into gmail?)

Here is the result of clicking on an attachment link from the digest:
Not Found

The requested URL
/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160430/e563edf7/attachment.html
was not found on this server.
--
Apache/2.2.14 Server at lists.gnu.org Port 80



And here is the message that has the attachment as link:

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 08:45:19 +1000
From: Brett Duncan 
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)
Message-ID: <5723e3ff.8030...@bigpond.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

On 30/04/2016 8:24 am, Henry Law wrote:
> On 29/04/16 22:20, Brett Duncan wrote:
>> You can also use "c1:5.9", which just adds the 9th over the basic triad.
>
> I coded g2:5.9 in chordmode and got G9, which isn't the right chord.
> I'm pursuing pop-chords.ly.
>
As Matthew said, you will need to override how the chord name is
displayed, but this (or Matthew's suggestion) at least constructs a
chord with the right notes.

Brett
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160430/e563edf7/attachment.html
>



(If "scrubbed" means "removed without a trace", then I understand it
grammatically.  But in that case, why include a link?)



Thanks,

David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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