Re: general question for composers
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 01:18:53PM -0800, Tobin Chodos wrote:
>hi all,
>
>this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what
>point in your process do you generally start engraving? Like most
>composers coming from the consumer notation softwares, I'm
>accustomed to working in pencil first, but not to completely
>separating the engraving and composition tasks. Curious about
>composer perspectives about this with lilypond. are there
>strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing?
[...]
I usually sketch on paper or in my head when I get an initial idea, but
I start inputting things into lilypond quite early on. However, instead
of inputting the full score right from the get-go, what I do is to use
multiple \score{} blocks for working out various separate passages,
possible harmonizations, etc., just to be able to visually work out some
of the details, listen to the MIDI approximation, etc..
Once I am confident enough with these "lilypond sketches", I set aside
the input file(s) and begin the "real" score as a different (set of)
input file(s). The original worked out passages are either copy-n-pasted
or retyped into the new file(s); quite often I would get new ideas in
the process and may diverge from the initial lilypond sketches. But
having them still available as other input files allows easier
consultation with my original ideas and copy-n-pasting if/when I decide
to. So I'd say I begin typing lilypond input quite early in the
composing process, which may or may not be a good idea, but at least I
find it helpful to be able to see the score early on and to take
advantage of the computer's editing functions (i.e., change notes
without needing to rewrite an entire staff or system or even page).
Of course, lilypond input being what it is, certain editing functions
are more troublesome than others; e.g., inserting/deleting bars from the
middle of the piece can involve a lot of grunt work. I heard that
Frescobaldi(?) is supposed to ease a lot of this grunt work, but I still
prefer working directly with the plain text files. To that end, I find
it very helpful to have a consistent, very rigid structure to my
lilypond files -- even though lilypond does allow very flexible input
syntax, in large complex pieces this quickly becomes unmanageable.
So I impose upon myself a certain format, such as having no more than 1
bar per input line, grouping bars into "stanzas" of 4 bars each,
delimited by a blank line, prepending passages with a unique comment
header such that it's easy to jump to a specific passage just by
searching for that unique string. I also use bar checks '|' both at the
beginning *and* end of every bar, which is redundant, of course, but
does serve the useful purpose of visually indicating the start and end
of a bar (esp. in complex pieces where a bar may span multiple lines) so
that I can easily identify a bar with just a glance. It makes counting
groups of bars much easier, and less confusing to find things in the
middle of a bar.
In multi-instrument works, I found it too troublesome to keep each
instrument part to a separate file -- I spend too much time switching
between files and trying to figure out where things are in each file,
and keeping a large number of files in sync. Instead, I keep everything
in a single file with each instrument's part in a uniquely named
variable (e.g., violinIPart, violinIIPart, trumpetIPart, trumpetIIPart,
etc.), and navigate by using my editor's search function for that unique
part name, and then the section header string, which is duplicated
consistently across all parts (even if they consist of just rests /
spacers). Some amount of effort is required to keep all these markers
in sync with each other, but in my experience I find that they save a
lot more time when navigating the input file, than it takes to maintain
them.
True, inserting a bar here or there would require updating every
instrument part manually, but in theory if I keep to a consistent,
strict layout then I could probably write an editor script for
performing such operations. Originally, I thought of assigning each
passage to its own variable, so that I can add new bars to a passage
without disrupting subsequent passages, but in the end it was too
complex and messy to keep everything in sync (and to remember new names
for passages or invent a system for keeping them straight), so I stuck
with one variable per instrument part under a consistent naming scheme.
When I need to insert an extensive passage in the middle of a piece,
sometimes it's easier to do it in reduced score in a separate lilypond
input file until I work out exactly the right number of bars it would
need, before actually updating each instrument in the main input file
with the right number of spacers / filler bars that eventually will get
filled with the new notes. That way I know exactly ho
Re: general question for composers
It varies from project to project. Sometimes direct entry while composing to full pencil scribbles, generally incomprehensible to anyone else, but nonetheless complete. Some stuff just gets sketched out broadly and then finished while doing the data entry as the overall structure has been defined. The bigger the piece the more likely it will be done in handwriting first. As has been noted unless you are careful massive edits can be irritating to accomplish. Generally keyboard pieces with occasional choral or orchestral things tossed in for total abstract effort. Shane Brandes On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 9:29 AM, David Bellows <davebell...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm a composer in the classical tradition. Sheet music is everything. > And I compose directly into Lilypond. I don't have access to any > instruments and don't want to lug around manuscript paper. I also > don't want to spend time writing all the music out by hand and then > writing it out *again* in Lilypond. Just do it once (plus all the > editing, of course). It's just me and my laptop and Lilypond (and a > few other things but you get the idea). > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Vaughan McAlley <vaug...@mcalley.net.au> > wrote: >> On 19 Nov 2016 8:20 a.m., "Tobin Chodos" <tobin.cho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> hi all, >>> >>> this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what point in >>> your process do you generally start engraving? Like most composers coming >>> from the consumer notation softwares, I'm accustomed to working in pencil >>> first, but not to completely separating the engraving and composition tasks. >>> Curious about composer perspectives about this with lilypond. are there >>> strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Tobin >>> >>> ___ >>> lilypond-user mailing list >>> lilypond-user@gnu.org >>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user >>> >> >> Like the others, I prefer to keep composing and typesetting separate. >> Composing is (or should be) too difficult to be simultaneously wrestling >> with any technology more complicated than a pencil (and maybe a piano). >> Occasionally like Trevor i will print out a cantus firmus with blank staves, >> mainly because of thinks are in canon, cf mistakes are difficult to fix! >> >> Listening to MIDI is essential for proofing. So many scores on the internet >> have errors that one listen-through would pick up. I have a script that >> finds consecutives. But in the end, once I have found the errors, I'll fix >> them on paper, partly because it can be done away from the computer. >> >> Vaughan >> >> >> ___ >> lilypond-user mailing list >> lilypond-user@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user >> > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
I'm a composer in the classical tradition. Sheet music is everything. And I compose directly into Lilypond. I don't have access to any instruments and don't want to lug around manuscript paper. I also don't want to spend time writing all the music out by hand and then writing it out *again* in Lilypond. Just do it once (plus all the editing, of course). It's just me and my laptop and Lilypond (and a few other things but you get the idea). On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Vaughan McAlley <vaug...@mcalley.net.au> wrote: > On 19 Nov 2016 8:20 a.m., "Tobin Chodos" <tobin.cho...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> hi all, >> >> this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what point in >> your process do you generally start engraving? Like most composers coming >> from the consumer notation softwares, I'm accustomed to working in pencil >> first, but not to completely separating the engraving and composition tasks. >> Curious about composer perspectives about this with lilypond. are there >> strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Tobin >> >> ___ >> lilypond-user mailing list >> lilypond-user@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user >> > > Like the others, I prefer to keep composing and typesetting separate. > Composing is (or should be) too difficult to be simultaneously wrestling > with any technology more complicated than a pencil (and maybe a piano). > Occasionally like Trevor i will print out a cantus firmus with blank staves, > mainly because of thinks are in canon, cf mistakes are difficult to fix! > > Listening to MIDI is essential for proofing. So many scores on the internet > have errors that one listen-through would pick up. I have a script that > finds consecutives. But in the end, once I have found the errors, I'll fix > them on paper, partly because it can be done away from the computer. > > Vaughan > > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
On 19 Nov 2016 8:20 a.m., "Tobin Chodos" <tobin.cho...@gmail.com> wrote: > > hi all, > > this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what point in your process do you generally start engraving? Like most composers coming from the consumer notation softwares, I'm accustomed to working in pencil first, but not to completely separating the engraving and composition tasks. Curious about composer perspectives about this with lilypond. are there strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing? > > Thanks. > > Tobin > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > Like the others, I prefer to keep composing and typesetting separate. Composing is (or should be) too difficult to be simultaneously wrestling with any technology more complicated than a pencil (and maybe a piano). Occasionally like Trevor i will print out a cantus firmus with blank staves, mainly because of thinks are in canon, cf mistakes are difficult to fix! Listening to MIDI is essential for proofing. So many scores on the internet have errors that one listen-through would pick up. I have a script that finds consecutives. But in the end, once I have found the errors, I'll fix them on paper, partly because it can be done away from the computer. Vaughan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
On 18.11.2016 22:41, SoundsFromSound wrote: So, my process is pencil/paper first, until piece is essentially complete - then engraving straight into LilyPond! That’s what I’m doing as well. Only sometimes I can’t wait and start entering the music when I’m only halfway done on paper :-) Best, Simon ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
Kieren MacMillan wrote Friday, November 18, 2016 9:28 PM > my strategies include iterative printing: engrave a little, print out the > score (with skips for gaps), do pencil-work to fill in the gaps, repeat. This is exactly my approach, although, unlike Kieren, I'm only working on simple SATB choral scores. Often I add a few bars of the S, using spacers for the other parts, print it out so I have a few bars I can fill in, retire to the piano to work out the harmonies and suitable progressions for the ATB bits, changing the S if necessary. Then I enter that into LP and repeat. Listening to the midi output often helps with refinement. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
Kieren MacMillan wrote > ... is how difficult it is to change the fundamental structure of a piece > in Lilypond. Working with, say, 40 staves (plus globals, etc.), if you > want to (e.g.) add a measure between m. 25 and m. 26, there is usually a > whole bunch of grunt work that needs to be done. In other engraving > applications, it’s a simple “add a measure here”, wait 2 seconds for the > app to do it, and move on. One of the main reasons I use pencil and paper first until the piece is finished, before beginning the engraving process! :) Too many headaches after-the-fact with regards to structure! Haha, but it could always be worse. I hear you! - composer | sound designer LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/general-question-for-composers-tp196856p196861.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
Tobin Chodos wrote > hi all, > > this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what point in > your process do you generally start engraving? Like most composers coming > from the consumer notation softwares, I'm accustomed to working in pencil > first, but not to completely separating the engraving and composition > tasks. Curious about composer perspectives about this with lilypond. are > there strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing? > > Thanks. > > Tobin > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@ > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Hi Tobin! Back several years when I first tried out LilyPond, I was using Sibelius and Finale very regularly and often inputting directly into the software without pencil and paper (thanks to *looming *deadlines)... However, these days I almost always compose at the piano, using pencil and paper, then once I get a 99% done pencil copy, I begin at the computer. I now use LilyPond pretty much for all my recent personal compositions, and Finale when I am required to for work and whatnot. So, my process is pencil/paper first, until piece is essentially complete - then engraving straight into LilyPond! - composer | sound designer LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/general-question-for-composers-tp196856p196859.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: general question for composers
Hi Tobin, > this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what point in > your process do you generally start engraving? Like most composers coming > from the consumer notation softwares, I'm accustomed to working in pencil > first, but not to completely separating the engraving and composition tasks. > Curious about composer perspectives about this with lilypond. Because of my [non-optimal] work process/behaviour, I almost always end up composing right into Lilypond: under deadline pressures, I [almost certainly erroneously] feel that I don’t have time left to write out a pencil score and then engrave separately. However, it is my opinion that the more fully one can compose away from any engraving software (perhaps especially Lilypond**??), the better. All other things being equal, I’d rather start engraving with a complete hand-written score — full separation of composition and engraving tasks. > are there strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing? Especially if there’s a lot of quoting or cutting-and-pasting or \repeat unfold-ing in the score I’m working on, my strategies include iterative printing: engrave a little, print out the score (with skips for gaps), do pencil-work to fill in the gaps, repeat. Hope that helps! Kieren. ** There are many reasons I say “especially”, but the biggest one is how difficult it is to change the fundamental structure of a piece in Lilypond. Working with, say, 40 staves (plus globals, etc.), if you want to (e.g.) add a measure between m. 25 and m. 26, there is usually a whole bunch of grunt work that needs to be done. In other engraving applications, it’s a simple “add a measure here”, wait 2 seconds for the app to do it, and move on. Kieren MacMillan, composer ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
general question for composers
hi all, this is a general question for composers using lilypond. at what point in your process do you generally start engraving? Like most composers coming from the consumer notation softwares, I'm accustomed to working in pencil first, but not to completely separating the engraving and composition tasks. Curious about composer perspectives about this with lilypond. are there strategies for working with a lilypond file while still composing? Thanks. Tobin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
