Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve) (fwd)

[Alex Pilon]

> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023, Dianne Skoll wrote:
> > their low-end offering has more disk space than Luna Node
> > (20GB vs 15GB) but half the RAM (512MB vs 1GB).

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 12:16:50PM -0400, Brett Delmage wrote:
> This is more than enough RAM to run
> * Mailman
> * BIND authoritative / caching DNS server
> * Postfix mail server
> * Apache web server
> * opendkim

Are these numbers with or without the overhead of

- Dovecot
- OpenDMARC or SPF policy agent
- Rspamd or Spamassassin
- Munin, Prometheus/Thanos, Statsd, etc.

Any of these particularly variable load? Or ever run out of control? I don't
have historical data for my instance, or the human memory.

I'm also on Postfix and OpenDKIM, and it's been rock-solid. I do not run Apache
or Mailman, just static content over optimised (but non QUIC/HTTP/3) NGINX.

> with room to spare. I have run these services on a 256 MB server when VPSs
> were more expensive.
>
> # free -m
>totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache   available
> Mem: 481 143  89   1 248 325
> Swap:   1023 397 626

This is typical load, right? Ever run close to the limit on systemctl restart
of services after a pacman/apt/apk/dnf/zypper/etc. upgrade? Or due to the
package manager itself?

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Re: [linux] Replying to List

[Alex Pilon]

> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:50:16 -0700 BCLUG  wrote:
>
> > When replying, there's no "Reply To List" enabled (in Thunderbird).

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 11:53:19AM -0400, Dianne Skoll wrote:
> This annoys me too.  IMO, reply to list should be the default.

There are also no List-* headers except List-Id, which is surprising. I 
expected a List-Reply

Here's what I see on another list, that hosts the development of my long stable
terminal emulator.

Subject: [hackers] [st] Add support for DSR response "OK" escape sequence 
|| Adam Price
Message-ID: 
Precedence: list
Reply-To: hackers mail list 
List-Id: hackers mail list 
List-Unsubscribe: 
List-Subscribe: 
List-Help: 
List-Post: 

I also don't see ARC headers in Linux-Ottawa, but I'm not going to criticise
volunteers' oversubscribed time and should put up or shut up.

Same with TLSRPT and MTA-STS DNS records and policy hosting, but I'd be glad to
volunteer time to set those up. Those are mailing list software independent.

> > I'm a bit rusty on Gnu Mailman, but isn't there an option that would
> > allow a simple "Reply To List" like most other mailing lists?
>
> OCLUG doesn't use Mailman.  It's something called mlmmj (http://mlmmj.org/)

Was the Mlmmj experiment therefore not a good idea?

That said, sysadmin time, operability is probably much more valuable here than
technical excellence. IIRC, Mailman has slightly more _complex_ (not calling it
complicated) internal messaging and storage than Mlmmj, so as far as I see it,
if there is sufficient feature parity and nonfunctional requirements parity,
how easy it is to debug, clean up after, either of the two if the original
software breaks. I only have legacy Mailman experience from EngSoc, which might
as well be ancient Carleton history.

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Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 18:04:51 +
Katherine Mcmillan  wrote:

> I also note that the Illumos project is using a service called
> "Topicbox" (https://www.topicbox.com/pricing) with success. ;)

Looks cool, but all the email-lists-as-a-service providers seem to be
significantly more expensive than an entire VPS.  I don't know how
many subscribers are on this list, but wouldn't be surprised if it
were over 100.

True, if you run the mailing list yourself there's some sysadmin
overhead, but it's mostly when setting things up. Day-to-day
management is pretty hands-off.

I'm retiring at the end of April and am willing to lend a hand doing
sysadmin work for OCLUG if that is needed as long as it doesn't add up
to more than about 5 hours / month.

Regards,

Dianne.

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Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

[Katherine Mcmillan]

I also note that the Illumos project is using a service called "Topicbox" 
(https://www.topicbox.com/pricing)
with success. ;)

Sincerely,
Katie

From: Raj 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2023 11:22:06 AM
To: J C Nash 
Cc: James ; Jean-Francois Messier ; 
linux@linux-ottawa.org 
Subject: Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

Attention : courriel externe | external email
Some of the other groups I'm with have moved to groups.io. 
The free tier seems pretty capable for handling basic mail group features and 
it has a utility to help migrate from listserv.

Note that I'm not affiliated with or endorsing groups.io in 
any way, just that I have seen it used for similar purposes

Raj

Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[Ian]

In reference to "Keeping the lights on", I would be willing to kick in 
some bucks.  I live in Perth, an hour west of Ottawa, and am glad not to 
have to drive in to attend meetings.  The savings in gas/parking and 
convenience are worth it for me.  Many moons ago I would drive home from 
work (in Kanata) have dinner with the family then drive back in 
(Centrepoint)  attend a meeting then drive home again.


After a long hiatus, re-joining the group was very nice. Different 
people, but still going.  I would not want to see it end for lack of a 
few dollars to support the bare minimum of supporting infrastructure.


I pledge $60, about the cost a tank of gas, which I don't have to spend 
getting to meetings :-)


Cheers, Ian M.



On 2023-04-10 12:02, BCLUG wrote:

Dianne Skoll wrote on 2023-04-10 08:55:


Yes, according tohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linode

The linode.com web site is now branded "Akamai"


Thanks Dianne.

The promo codes have been offered under the Linode brand as recently 
as the last LNL podcast episode (also on the Linux After Dark, Linux 
Downtime, and Self Hosted podcasts), so that seems to be continuing.



Another couple of surprises:

> On February 15, 2022, Akamai Technologies announced its intent to
> acquire Linode for $900 million;


That it happened so long ago and I didn't hear about it, and that it 
sold for "only" $900,000,000.


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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve) (fwd)

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 12:16:50 -0400 (EDT)
Brett Delmage  wrote:

> This is more than enough RAM to run
> * Mailman
> * BIND authoritative / caching DNS server
> * Postfix mail server
> * Apache web server
> * opendkim

I'd take the extra 512MB of RAM over the extra 5GB of disk, but YMMV.

> The CACloud VPS also comes with 1 GB of swap, which extends the RAM
> nicely. In my experience many VPS do not come with any swap. Casual
> comparisons of VPS may not be valid.

With Luna Node, you can install whatever OS you want from an ISO image,
so if you want to configure swap, you can.

> CACloud's SSD VPSs are located at 151 Front, providing excellent
> latency for Ottawa and Canada in general.

Luna Node's Toronto data centre is in the Cogent Data Center at 245
Consumers Rd in North York.

My ping latency to my Luna Node box via Teksavvy DSL is a pretty constant
13ms.  My latency to my OVH box is a pretty constant 18ms.
My latency to www.canadianhosting.com is likewise a pretty constant
18ms.  So *shrug* no idea if it's just because Teksavvy happens to have
a better route to Luna Node, or what.

> CACloud has been completely hassle-free to control or have set up
> full mail server ports, and PTR records, both ipv4 and ipv6.

Luna Node too.  They also have a nice API (which is unlikely to be of
much use unless you're setting up / managing dozens of VPSes.)

Regards,

Dianne.

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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve) (fwd)

[Brett Delmage]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023, Dianne Skoll wrote:


There's also Canadian Web Hosting - not just located in Canada but
Canadian-owned, from $7 CDN / month:
https://www.canadianwebhosting.com/vps


Interesting. I am still paying $5/month, maybe because I am grandfathered.


their low-end offering has more disk space than Luna Node
(20GB vs 15GB) but half the RAM (512MB vs 1GB).


This is more than enough RAM to run
* Mailman
* BIND authoritative / caching DNS server
* Postfix mail server
* Apache web server
* opendkim

with room to spare. I have run these services on a 256 MB server when VPSs were 
more expensive.


# free -m
   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache   available
Mem: 481 143  89   1 248 325
Swap:   1023 397 626


The CACloud VPS also comes with 1 GB of swap, which extends the RAM 
nicely. In my experience many VPS do not come with any swap. Casual 
comparisons of VPS may not be valid.


CACloud's SSD VPSs are located at 151 Front, providing excellent latency for 
Ottawa and Canada in general.


CACloud's service has been consistently and remarkably _excellent_ over 15 
years for me. I don't know how they do it when charging so little. Maybe 
because I treat support persons with respect and appreciation.


CACloud has been completely hassle-free to control or have set up full mail 
server ports, and PTR records, both ipv4 and ipv6.


---

Are there official minutes of the general meeting, including the list of 
atendees, quorum call, and votes on all resolutions? Will thay be posted here?


Brett


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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[BCLUG]

Dianne Skoll wrote on 2023-04-10 08:55:


Yes, according tohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linode

The linode.com web site is now branded "Akamai"


Thanks Dianne.

The promo codes have been offered under the Linode brand as recently as 
the last LNL podcast episode (also on the Linux After Dark, Linux 
Downtime, and Self Hosted podcasts), so that seems to be continuing.



Another couple of surprises:

> On February 15, 2022, Akamai Technologies announced its intent to
> acquire Linode for $900 million;


That it happened so long ago and I didn't hear about it, and that it 
sold for "only" $900,000,000.


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Re: [linux] Replying to List

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 11:56:05 -0400
Alan McKay  wrote:

> Current functionality is RFC compliant however IMO this is an instance
> where the RFC is wrong.

Which RFC is this?  I was not aware of an RFC that made any recommendations
about the default Reply-To: for a mailing list.

Regards,

Dianne.

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Re: [linux] Replying to List

[Alan McKay]

Current functionality is RFC compliant however IMO this is an instance
where the RFC is wrong.

Really depends on the nature of the list how to do replies.

If the list is intended to be a discussion list to generate discussion
- then it should be changed to reply-to-list

If the intention of the list is to disseminate information (from a
central body which it seems no longer exists) then the current
behavior is fine

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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:46:55 -0700
BCLUG  wrote:

> Whoa, all news to me!

> a) Akamai owns Linode?!?
> b) Discontinuing the brand?!?

Yes, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linode

The linode.com web site is now branded "Akamai"

Regards,

Dianne.

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Re: [linux] Replying to List

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:50:16 -0700
BCLUG  wrote:

> When replying, there's no "Reply To List" enabled (in Thunderbird).

This annoys me too.  IMO, reply to list should be the default.

> I'm a bit rusty on Gnu Mailman, but isn't there an option that would 
> allow a simple "Reply To List" like most other mailing lists?

OCLUG doesn't use Mailman.  It's something called mlmmj (http://mlmmj.org/)

Regards,

Dianne.

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[linux] Replying to List

[BCLUG]

Hey All,

Question about the list:

When replying, there's no "Reply To List" enabled (in Thunderbird).

I have to "Reply All", then remove the original sender's email so they 
don't get duplicates (and fingers crossed they get a copy from the 
general list).



I'm a bit rusty on Gnu Mailman, but isn't there an option that would 
allow a simple "Reply To List" like most other mailing lists?


Shouldn't this be enabled, or is there a reason it isn't?


Thanks for any insight!

rb

--
BCLUG.ca
https://bclug.ca

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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[BCLUG]

Dianne Skoll wrote on 2023-04-10 08:44:


AFAIK, Akamai is discontinuing the Linode brand.  Are they keeping the
pricing and promotions in place?


Whoa, all news to me!

a) Akamai owns Linode?!?
b) Discontinuing the brand?!?


Interesting, will watch for news on this.

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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:36:22 -0700
BCLUG  wrote:

> Linode.com runs an affiliate program for various podcasts, and the
> Late Night Linux podcast, for example, can get you $100 (USD?) credit
> with the LNL promo code.

AFAIK, Akamai is discontinuing the Linode brand.  Are they keeping the
pricing and promotions in place?

> There's also Canadian Web Hosting - not just located in Canada but
> Canadian-owned, from $7 CDN / month:
> https://www.canadianwebhosting.com/vps

Interesting... their low-end offering has more disk space than Luna Node
(20GB vs 15GB) but half the RAM (512MB vs 1GB).

Regards,

Dianne.

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Re: Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[BCLUG]

Dianne Skoll wrote on 2023-04-10 08:01:

You can get comparable low-end VPSes at lunanode.com for USD 
$3.50/month.  (Although they charge in USD, their data centres are in

Canada.)


That's a pretty good price.


Linode.com runs an affiliate program for various podcasts, and the Late
Night Linux podcast, for example, can get you $100 (USD?) credit with
the LNL promo code.


I think, but am unsure, that Linode has Canadian data centre(s).


https://latenightlinux.com/


Go to https://linode.com/latenightlinux and get started with $100
credit.



There's also Canadian Web Hosting - not just located in Canada but
Canadian-owned, from $7 CDN / month:

https://www.canadianwebhosting.com/vps

https://www.canadianwebhosting.com/hosting/compare_our_products/



I can only endorse the LNL podcast, no personal experience with any of
these hosting providers...


rb


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Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

[Raj]

Some of the other groups I'm with have moved to groups.io. The free tier
seems pretty capable for handling basic mail group features and it has a
utility to help migrate from listserv.

Note that I'm not affiliated with or endorsing groups.io in any way, just
that I have seen it used for similar purposes

Raj

Keeping the lights on (was Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve)

[Dianne Skoll]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 10:48:25 -0400
J C Nash  wrote:

> However, it seems we should be able to continue. We have about 18
> months prepaid VPS.

I notice our existing VPS is at OVH, which AFAIK charges around $8/month
for the cheapest VPS.

You can get comparable low-end VPSes at lunanode.com for USD
$3.50/month.  (Although they charge in USD, their data centres are in Canada.)

I have a VPS at each of OVH and Luna Node and have not found much
difference in terms of reliability, performace or tech support.  A
cheaper VPS would help donations go further.

Regards,

Dianne.

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Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

[J C Nash]

Informal donations. A couple of people commented at meetings or on this list 
that they'd
offer to hose wiki or mailing list. I suspect the reality could be a bit less 
generous,
but I think we'll find some way to keep things going, though it may be less 
fancy.

Scott noted that there are facilities like Google Groups, though their non-open 
nature
may offend.

However, it seems we should be able to continue. We have about 18 months 
prepaid VPS.

JN

On 2023-04-10 10:44, James wrote:

I don't know.

Apr. 10, 2023 10:42:34 Jean-Francois Messier :



How will the funding of the web site and wiki will work ? Informal donations, 
pass the hat at in-person meetings, other ideas ?

On 2023-04-09T18:46:58.000-04:00, James  wrote:




On 2023-04-09 17:43, Znoteer wrote:












 
 
 
 
   On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 04:19:37PM -0400, Tug Williams wrote:


 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
   The numbers were 15 for, 1 against.


 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
   And another one bites the dust. A bit sad, but such is life.


 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 

  

 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
  I came here as a refugee from LUGs that were disappearing all around me. Thanks for letting me lurk.


 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 

  

 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
  If the phoenix ressurects itself in some form with a mailing list/Fediverse identity, or something like that, please keep a list of our mailing list addresses (at least mine) so that you can let us know (at least me) if anything develops after this dissolution. VLUG in Victoria, for example,  kind of melted into the then nascent Rasp Pi interest group. I think they still have the VLUG FQDN, but it's still a different Society.


 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 

  

 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
  Good luck to everyone.


 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 

  

 
 
 
 










  It's not dead, only the legal part is.












 











 










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Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

[James]

I don't know.

Apr. 10, 2023 10:42:34 Jean-Francois Messier :

> 
> How will the funding of the web site and wiki will work ? Informal donations, 
> pass the hat at in-person meetings, other ideas ? 
> 
> On 2023-04-09T18:46:58.000-04:00, James  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 2023-04-09 17:43, Znoteer wrote:
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>   On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 04:19:37PM -0400, Tug Williams wrote:
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> identity, or something like that, please keep a list of our mailing list 
> addresses (at least mine) so that you can let us know (at least me) if 
> anything develops after this dissolution. VLUG in Victoria, for example,  
> kind of melted into the then nascent Rasp Pi interest group. I think they 
> still have the VLUG FQDN, but it's still a different Society.
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> To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
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> 

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Re: [linux] Result of the OCLUG motion to dissolve

[Jean-Francois Messier]

How will the funding of the web site and wiki will work ? Informal
donations, pass the hat at in-person meetings, other ideas ? 

On 2023-04-09T18:46:58.000-04:00, James  wrote:

> On 2023-04-09 17:43, Znoteer wrote:
>>  On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 04:19:37PM -0400, Tug Williams wrote:
>>  
>>>   The numbers were 15 for, 1 against.
>>  
>>   And another one bites the dust. A bit sad, but such is life.
>>  
>>   I came here as a refugee from LUGs that were disappearing all
>>  around me. Thanks for letting me lurk.
>>  
>>   If the phoenix ressurects itself in some form with a mailing
>>  list/Fediverse identity, or something like that, please keep a
>>  list of our mailing list addresses (at least mine) so that you can
>>  let us know (at least me) if anything develops after this
>>  dissolution. VLUG in Victoria, for example, kind of melted into
>>  the then nascent Rasp Pi interest group. I think they still have
>>  the VLUG FQDN, but it's still a different Society.
>>  
>>   Good luck to everyone.
> 
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