Re: Systems management - quick survey?
Michael MacIsaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >So I apologize to Aduva for suggesting their product might be dead. But not to Levanta -- not only is the z product dead, but as of 3/31/08, the company itself closed its doors; the website finally went down a few days ago. Another one bites the dust... ...phsiii -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
One should ask some really tough questions :) When was your last release for this platform? What date is the next planned update? How does that compare to the other platform? Are they on the same level? How many other z customers do you have? Can you give me references? Quiz the marketing rep--- who else is he/she marketing too at the moment? Can we have some joint discussions/presentations? (once bitten twice shy :) I kinda feel for the vendors. This is a very tough and really super educated crowd. (what other computer internet list can you get on and not get ripped apart for being clueless ? :) While that it is good, that just means fewer vendors are going to tread into the z linux space without a good sized handful of customers with checkbooks (unless they are IBM - but hey, not even all their stuff runs on z linux :) Even CA hasn't made good progress in z Linux things and their pockets are probably deep and they do understand the z customers. We've had some success in getting together with other large customers and pressuring the vendors to deliver z linux agents for their stuff (we're not even asking for the servers -- just the darn agents so we can fall in line with the company choices -- choices made by the distributed world czars). Levanta did really help with a lot of the systems management issues that Mike asked about. The interface to the VM directory (whether it be VM:secure, Dirmaint/RACF, or xedit the big file) - call that 'virtual bare metal' if you will, was flawless. They solved the DASD sharing problem transparently to the server with their mapfs filesystem. Being venture capitalist funded... They ran outta time (but imploded way way after the rest of those who came on the map in 2000 :) Marcy "This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Post Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:06 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Systems management - quick survey? >>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:38 PM, in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael MacIsaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks to all who replied. > > I did get a note off-list that Aduva does still support System z: >>Yes, we do still have a version that >>supports Z - but most of our growth is really in the distributed Linux >>and Solaris space. > > So I apologize to Aduva for suggesting their product might be dead. Perhaps, but try finding any mention of that on their web site. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
>>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:38 PM, in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael MacIsaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks to all who replied. > > I did get a note off-list that Aduva does still support System z: >>Yes, we do still have a version that >>supports Z - but most of our growth is really in the distributed Linux >>and Solaris space. > > So I apologize to Aduva for suggesting their product might be dead. Perhaps, but try finding any mention of that on their web site. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
Thanks to all who replied. I did get a note off-list that Aduva does still support System z: >Yes, we do still have a version that >supports Z - but most of our growth is really in the distributed Linux >and Solaris space. So I apologize to Aduva for suggesting their product might be dead. "Mike MacIsaac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
On Tuesday, 07/08/2008 at 09:10 EDT, Shawn Wells <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What is your greatest need in z/VM and Linux systems management? : > Bare metal provisioning. I'd like to provision Linux guests entirely > through the web -- allocate all resources (hipersockets, DASD, > everything), have it update z/VM, kickstart the machine, then IPL it. > Right now I'm aware of utilities that can re-provision existing VMs, but > nothing from scratch. A large amount of my customers provide for-fee > hosting services and want to spin up VMs on the fly, through a GUI. > I've done allot of this through in-house rexx scripting (nod to Scott R. > on that one) that I've been using for a few years now, but would like > official productization(sp?) I'm a bit confused, Shawn. "Bare metal" and "guests" don't mix. The z/VM Center feature of IBM Director can create Linux virtual machines. It includes the concept of multiple "Golden Masters" that provide the model. I don't recall whether it allows provisioning of HiperSocket resources. A directory management product that supports the z/VM System Management APIs must be used (DIRMAINT or VM:Secure/Direct). Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
Michael MacIsaac wrote: I tried to categorize what's available today into 4 main areas (I apologize if I your software is not on the list, or if it listed as "Dead or dying" but is not. I do not also plan to address performance management). Here is the survey: I use RHN Satellite for my re-provisioning, patching and monitoring. I've had great success with Nagios as well, from a monitoring perspective. What is your greatest need in z/VM and Linux systems management? : Bare metal provisioning. I'd like to provision Linux guests entirely through the web -- allocate all resources (hipersockets, DASD, everything), have it update z/VM, kickstart the machine, then IPL it. Right now I'm aware of utilities that can re-provision existing VMs, but nothing from scratch. A large amount of my customers provide for-fee hosting services and want to spin up VMs on the fly, through a GUI. I've done allot of this through in-house rexx scripting (nod to Scott R. on that one) that I've been using for a few years now, but would like official productization(sp?) -Shawn -- Shawn D. Wells Global Solutions Architect Lead, Linux on System z [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: +1 443-534-0130 http://www.redhat.com/z/ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
On Tuesday, 07/08/2008 at 03:05 EDT, Brian France <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanx Alan. Looks like I need to do some reading on NPIV. By the > way, I'm pretty sure, thos you have me second guessing, that if you > have several chpds on a frame, they all have the same WWPN which > comes from the machine. No. Without NPIV (N_Port ID Virtualization), each FCP chpid has a single unique WWPN that is shared by all subchannels on it. This means that all Linux guests sharing an FCP chpid have the same WWPN; the switches and controllers cannot tell the difference, so all guests have the same access rights. With NPIV, every FCP subchannel on the box has a unique WWPN. Therefore the fabric can differentiate among the guests, and give proper access rights. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
At 01:00 PM 7/8/2008, you wrote: On Tuesday, 07/08/2008 at 12:47 EDT, Brian France <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > THANX! I know but you do with what you have. Backups go thru a > hipersocket from MFL/z/VM to z/OS. You do with what you have as long as you have a Get Out Of Jail Free card in your pocket. That is, a management-approved exemption from any security requirement that you cannot fulfill w/o an ESM. > Yes, Sorry should have been more specific. It's the WWPN issue. I > want to be able to ipl our prod vm and mfl on another frame and have > it pick up the dasd. I was wondering what would happen if I just > encoded the FCP access on a similar chpd/dev or maybe the same chpd > but different devices since we mirror the frames. Comments? Ideas? The chpid isn't important, per se, except that it dictates the WWPN. (And with NPIV, each *subchannel* on the chpid gets its own WWPN.) You need to know, in advance, the WWPN that the hosts will use and authorize them in the SAN fabric. Thanx Alan. Looks like I need to do some reading on NPIV. By the way, I'm pretty sure, thos you have me second guessing, that if you have several chpds on a frame, they all have the same WWPN which comes from the machine. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 Brian W. France Systems Administrator (Mainframe) Pennsylvania State University Administrative Information Services - Infrastructure/SYSARC Rm 25 Shields Bldg., University Park, Pa. 16802 814-863-4739 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." Carl Sagan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
On Tuesday, 07/08/2008 at 12:47 EDT, Brian France <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > THANX! I know but you do with what you have. Backups go thru a > hipersocket from MFL/z/VM to z/OS. You do with what you have as long as you have a Get Out Of Jail Free card in your pocket. That is, a management-approved exemption from any security requirement that you cannot fulfill w/o an ESM. > Yes, Sorry should have been more specific. It's the WWPN issue. I > want to be able to ipl our prod vm and mfl on another frame and have > it pick up the dasd. I was wondering what would happen if I just > encoded the FCP access on a similar chpd/dev or maybe the same chpd > but different devices since we mirror the frames. Comments? Ideas? The chpid isn't important, per se, except that it dictates the WWPN. (And with NPIV, each *subchannel* on the chpid gets its own WWPN.) You need to know, in advance, the WWPN that the hosts will use and authorize them in the SAN fabric. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
At 12:10 PM 7/8/2008, Alan Altmark wrote: On Tuesday, 07/08/2008 at 11:30 EDT, Brian France <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Security (authentication, authorization, audit) > > Directory only. (sigh) This means you cannot audit the activites of a virtual machine and your passwords are stored in cleartext. Your backups contain the same cleartext data unless you are using encrypting tape drives. THANX! I know but you do with what you have. Backups go thru a hipersocket from MFL/z/VM to z/OS. > ANYBODY have any ideas on how to share FCP dasd between two physical > systems? We have one frame for test z/VM and MFL and one frame for > prod z/VM and MFL. Our current thought would be to take down our test > z/VM and MFL's and boot our prod z/VM and MFL's if needed. BUT, we > loose our FCP dasd. This is an 8300 with SVC. You can share FCP dasd as long as the zoning and the controllers allow the contact. Remember that when you swap machines, the WWPN on the m/f will be different. Maybe you have a WWPN authorization or more general zoning issue? Yes, Sorry should have been more specific. It's the WWPN issue. I want to be able to ipl our prod vm and mfl on another frame and have it pick up the dasd. I was wondering what would happen if I just encoded the FCP access on a similar chpd/dev or maybe the same chpd but different devices since we mirror the frames. Comments? Ideas? Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 Brian W. France Systems Administrator (Mainframe) Pennsylvania State University Administrative Information Services - Infrastructure/SYSARC Rm 25 Shields Bldg., University Park, Pa. 16802 814-863-4739 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." Carl Sagan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
On Tuesday, 07/08/2008 at 11:30 EDT, Brian France <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Security (authentication, authorization, audit) > > Directory only. (sigh) This means you cannot audit the activites of a virtual machine and your passwords are stored in cleartext. Your backups contain the same cleartext data unless you are using encrypting tape drives. > ANYBODY have any ideas on how to share FCP dasd between two physical > systems? We have one frame for test z/VM and MFL and one frame for > prod z/VM and MFL. Our current thought would be to take down our test > z/VM and MFL's and boot our prod z/VM and MFL's if needed. BUT, we > loose our FCP dasd. This is an 8300 with SVC. You can share FCP dasd as long as the zoning and the controllers allow the contact. Remember that when you swap machines, the WWPN on the m/f will be different. Maybe you have a WWPN authorization or more general zoning issue? Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
> In preparing some z/VM course material, I found myself having to define > "z/VM system management". It turns out that you have: > - Provisioning (real and virtual) We are utilizing Shared-Root, therefore we picked up various scripts and modified as needed ( if any ). > > - Human operations (IPL, shutdown, health inquiry, dump processing, ...) IPL - by hand no dump processing - haven't seen one yet. KNOCK WOOD!!! health inquiry - sys admins > > - Automated operations We utilize our z/OS packages of CA-7 and FDR/Upstream for backups and job scheduling Inhouse scripting for automated FTP's. > > - Security (authentication, authorization, audit) Directory only. > > - Performance monitoring and management Perf Tool Kit, RMFDDS ( green and web), Omegamon XE for VM and Linux ( green and web ) > > - Backup/Archive FDR/Upstream using CA-7, VTAPE, CA-1. > > - Disaster planning and recovery PPRC and backups VSWITCH fail over ANYBODY have any ideas on how to share FCP dasd between two physical systems? We have one frame for test z/VM and MFL and one frame for prod z/VM and MFL. Our current thought would be to take down our test z/VM and MFL's and boot our prod z/VM and MFL's if needed. BUT, we loose our FCP dasd. This is an 8300 with SVC. > > - Availability management (probably tied with disaster planning) zilch, nada > > - Problem determination and Service (patching) we sys admins patching on a 1/4ly basis unless deemed a big risk > > - Software and configuration change control > Subversion for Apps. At 03:39 PM 7/7/2008, Michael MacIsaac wrote: Hello list, I'm preparing for a SHARE presentation (week of Aug 11, San Jose, CA) on z/VM and Linux systems management. If you use Linux and z/VM on System z, do you have time for a quick survey? I tried to categorize what's available today into 4 main areas (I apologize if I your software is not on the list, or if it listed as "Dead or dying" but is not. I do not also plan to address performance management). Here is the survey: ---snip--- Systems management software used: 1) Open source software: _ Hobbit _ Nagios _ Other ___ 2) Priced software: _ CSL-Wave _ IBM Systems Director/Tivoli Provisioning Manager _ Mainstar Provisioning Expert (formerly Rocket Software) _ Other ___ 3) Dead or dying (??): _ Aduva OnStage/Director _ Levanta _ Other ___ 4) Roll your own systems management - comments: What is your greatest need in z/VM and Linux systems management? : Comments on z/VM and Linux systems management in general: ---snip--- Reply on or off-list. Your feedback is appreciated. Thanks. (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 Brian W. France Systems Administrator (Mainframe) Pennsylvania State University Administrative Information Services - Infrastructure/SYSARC Rm 25 Shields Bldg., University Park, Pa. 16802 814-863-4739 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." Carl Sagan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
I agree with Alan - the list is much broader.. I've updated below what I've seen my customers using, using Alan's list. Not sure if this is what you want, Michael - but FWIW: Scott On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Alan Altmark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Monday, 07/07/2008 at 04:08 EDT, Michael > MacIsaac/Poughkeepsie/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Define "systems management" :) > > > > Yes, that is what I hope to do in an hour at SHARE :)) > > > > I tried to leave the "form" open-ended. But let's say systems management > = > > monitoring, provisioning and patching, while performance management is > > perhaps a separate science unto itself. > > In preparing some z/VM course material, I found myself having to define > "z/VM system management". It turns out that you have: > - Provisioning (real and virtual) Typically inhouse scripting - with RH Linux - using kickstart. DIRMAINT or VMDIRECT (CA) or manual directory edit for provisioning > > - Human operations (IPL, shutdown, health inquiry, dump processing, ...) inhouse scripting > > - Automated operations PROP, inhouse scripting > > - Security (authentication, authorization, audit) Directory (no ESM), RACF, ACF2, VMSECURE (CA) > > - Performance monitoring and management PTK, Velocity, Omegamon (green screen and XE) > > - Backup/Archive TSM for Linux guests, VTAPE, Flashcopy SE, in house scripts > > - Disaster planning and recovery Lots of data mirroring going on - PPRC, XRC, etc - various solutions > > - Availability management (probably tied with disaster planning) Nagios (groundworks), Omegamon, Prognosis > > - Problem determination and Service (patching) Inhouse scripting (usually revolving around ssh) , Aduva > > - Software and configuration change control > > Some require more in-depth knowledge than others, but all are required to > have an industrial-grade system. If you ignore one or more areas, then > you will waste time or money (usually both). > > Alan Altmark > z/VM Development > IBM Endicott > > -- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > visit > http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
On Monday, 07/07/2008 at 04:08 EDT, Michael MacIsaac/Poughkeepsie/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Define "systems management" :) > > Yes, that is what I hope to do in an hour at SHARE :)) > > I tried to leave the "form" open-ended. But let's say systems management = > monitoring, provisioning and patching, while performance management is > perhaps a separate science unto itself. In preparing some z/VM course material, I found myself having to define "z/VM system management". It turns out that you have: - Provisioning (real and virtual) - Human operations (IPL, shutdown, health inquiry, dump processing, ...) - Automated operations - Security (authentication, authorization, audit) - Performance monitoring and management - Backup/Archive - Disaster planning and recovery - Availability management (probably tied with disaster planning) - Problem determination and Service (patching) - Software and configuration change control Some require more in-depth knowledge than others, but all are required to have an industrial-grade system. If you ignore one or more areas, then you will waste time or money (usually both). Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
Marcy, > Define "systems management" :) Yes, that is what I hope to do in an hour at SHARE :)) I tried to leave the "form" open-ended. But let's say systems management = monitoring, provisioning and patching, while performance management is perhaps a separate science unto itself. "Mike MacIsaac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Systems management - quick survey?
Define "systems management" :) The items under 1 to me say "monitoring", the items under 2 say "provisioning", 3 "provisioning + patching" (at least for Levanta anyway). Marcy Cortes "This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MacIsaac Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:39 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: [LINUX-390] Systems management - quick survey? Hello list, I'm preparing for a SHARE presentation (week of Aug 11, San Jose, CA) on z/VM and Linux systems management. If you use Linux and z/VM on System z, do you have time for a quick survey? I tried to categorize what's available today into 4 main areas (I apologize if I your software is not on the list, or if it listed as "Dead or dying" but is not. I do not also plan to address performance management). Here is the survey: ---snip--- Systems management software used: 1) Open source software: _ Hobbit _ Nagios _ Other ___ 2) Priced software: _ CSL-Wave _ IBM Systems Director/Tivoli Provisioning Manager _ Mainstar Provisioning Expert (formerly Rocket Software) _ Other ___ 3) Dead or dying (??): _ Aduva OnStage/Director _ Levanta _ Other ___ 4) Roll your own systems management - comments: What is your greatest need in z/VM and Linux systems management? : Comments on z/VM and Linux systems management in general: ---snip--- Reply on or off-list. Your feedback is appreciated. Thanks. "Mike MacIsaac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Systems management - quick survey?
Hello list, I'm preparing for a SHARE presentation (week of Aug 11, San Jose, CA) on z/VM and Linux systems management. If you use Linux and z/VM on System z, do you have time for a quick survey? I tried to categorize what's available today into 4 main areas (I apologize if I your software is not on the list, or if it listed as "Dead or dying" but is not. I do not also plan to address performance management). Here is the survey: ---snip--- Systems management software used: 1) Open source software: _ Hobbit _ Nagios _ Other ___ 2) Priced software: _ CSL-Wave _ IBM Systems Director/Tivoli Provisioning Manager _ Mainstar Provisioning Expert (formerly Rocket Software) _ Other ___ 3) Dead or dying (??): _ Aduva OnStage/Director _ Levanta _ Other ___ 4) Roll your own systems management - comments: What is your greatest need in z/VM and Linux systems management? : Comments on z/VM and Linux systems management in general: ---snip--- Reply on or off-list. Your feedback is appreciated. Thanks. "Mike MacIsaac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (845) 433-7061 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
