Re: Possibility to have a transient snapshot?
I was just looking into using overlayfs, and although it has some promise, I think it's biggest drawback is the upperdir will have to be some sort of storage backed filesystem. From my limited understanding of tmpfs, it's not supposed to be the greatest with many large files (and my system in particular would be downloading many large movies/videos, and doing any kind of os update to test it would involve many changes all over the volume, which could be problematic to commit to a golden state.) I could partition the main drive in 2 parts, and dynamically zero-out then create the volume in the second partition on each boot, but I'm still saving no drive writes, and not really extending the life of the hardware (which is one of my premises.) On 05/12/2014 11:12 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:27 AM, James West ja...@terminalsystems.com wrote: General idea would be to have a transient snapshot (optional quota support possibility here) on top of a base snapshot (possibly readonly). On system start/restart (whether clean or dirty), the transient snapshot would be flushed, and the system would restart the snapshot, basically restarting from the base snapshot. Sounds similar to this idea: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html About 1/3 of the way down it gets to a proposal to Btrfs as a way to get to a stateless system, which is basically what you want to be able to rollback to. A variation on this that might serve the use case better is seed device. You can either drop the added device that stores changes to the seed device, or the volume (seed+added device) can become another seed if you want to make the current state persistent at next boot. And still another possibility is overlayfs, which isn't Btrfs specific. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-btrfs in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Possibility to have a transient snapshot?
On 12/10/2014 11:52 AM, James West wrote: I was just looking into using overlayfs, and although it has some promise, I think it's biggest drawback is the upperdir will have to be some sort of storage backed filesystem. From my limited understanding of tmpfs, it's not supposed to be the greatest with many large files (and my system in particular would be downloading many large movies/videos, and doing any kind of os update to test it would involve many changes all over the volume, which could be problematic to commit to a golden state.) I could partition the main drive in 2 parts, and dynamically zero-out then create the volume in the second partition on each boot, but I'm still saving no drive writes, and not really extending the life of the hardware (which is one of my premises.) You are over-thinking the transient part way too much. If the underlying device is not an SSD then most of your wear is immaterial. And if it is an SSD, you wear is still pretty damn immaterial. The full weight snapshots are plenty transient if you delete them between uses and they don't do any recursive copying so they are almost wear-free. [If you want to wear out a hard disk, park it's heads a lot. (The My Book series of WD external enclosures had a _horrible_ default of parking the heads after every eight seconds of idle time. Ouch.)] A normal hard disk's runtime (provided its not a lemon) is shorter than its mean write wear time anyway. So the best thing to do in your case is to customize your initramfs to do what you need and then hide your stuff from normal use. Consider this (untested but) hiper-simple init script... (assumes busybox in the initramfs providing mount and a few of the other basic tools and the btrfs command). --- snip --- #!/bin/bash mkdir /dev mount -t devtmpfs none /dev mkdir /scratch mount -t btrfs /dev/sda1 /scratch if [ -d /scratch/active ]; then btrfs subvol del /scratch/active fi btrfs subvol snap /scratch/__Master /scratch/active mkdir /root mount -o subvol=/active /dev/sda1 /root umount /scratch rmdir /scratch umount /dev busybox switch_root /root /sbin/init $@ --- snip --- Every time you boot it makes a fresh snapshot of the /__Master subvolume of /dev/sda1 into /active and mounts that as root then treats that as the root of the file system. Estimated human-scale time to run this script is in the one-second-or-less range. None of the files in /__Master are then visible to the running system, so they won't be subject to search via find or locate etc. Problem solved. When you want to do maintenance you can log into you box and do mount /dev/sda1 /mnt at which point /__Master is visible as /mnt/__Master. You can do your backup snapshots and your maintenance via the /mnt view without purturbing your running system. chroot /mnt/__Master /bin/bash That gives you the native view of your master system in that shell. From that shell all your package tools will work just fine etc. You can prep new or covariant system is snapshots parallel to /__Master and use rename to select the __Master for the next reboot. Even better, since snapshots of snapshots are not degenerate in any way at all, you can create multiple system roots as /Whatever and /OtherThing (and so on) and always do your maintenance there. Then before any reboot you can snap /mnt/Whatever into /mnt/__Master (using the same technique as for /active) and then reboot. On that reboot the new /__Master will be the master for the new /active. All of the snapshot activities are almost instant (except for the cleanup of the previous /active if it's full of a lot of changes, but that will happen in the background so you don't have to care much about that time). ASIDE: And I keep pointing people at it, but I do a lot of experimental boot behaviors while testing hardware and such for my job, and my baseline initramfs builder at http://underdog.sourceforge.net is easy to customize and plenty stable. It already sucks in the btrfs and command and friends, and you can take control of the boot-up to do experimental tweaks by adding bash to the kernel boot args for an individual boot. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-btrfs in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Possibility to have a transient snapshot?
This is just a random idea that popped through my mind while I was looking into hardening a filesystem against damage, might be impractical, but the idea seems promising, and well suited to a snapshot file system. I'm sure some creative shell scripting could do something like this already, but I was more looking for something more bulletproof. General idea would be to have a transient snapshot (optional quota support possibility here) on top of a base snapshot (possibly readonly). On system start/restart (whether clean or dirty), the transient snapshot would be flushed, and the system would restart the snapshot, basically restarting from the base snapshot. If desired, the transient snapshot could be promoted to a regular snapshot (say after a software upgrade). If desired, a different base snapshot could be selected (although I'm sure the file system would have to be restarted to do this) From a caching perspective, this could make a noticable performance difference, since if you're running in a transient snapshot, the file system can be _extremely_ lazy about committing changes to disk. For the optional quote support I mentioned, on an unattended box, if the quota gets exceeded, a system reboot would probably fully correct the system. (Presumably a log file got out of control in that situation). -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-btrfs in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Possibility to have a transient snapshot?
James West posted on Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:27:39 -0600 as excerpted: I'm sure some creative shell scripting could do something like this already, Indeed... but I was more looking for something more bulletproof. See below... General idea would be to have a transient snapshot (optional quota support possibility here) on top of a base snapshot (possibly readonly). On system start/restart (whether clean or dirty), the transient snapshot would be flushed, and the system would restart the snapshot, basically restarting from the base snapshot. So to this point we're effectively restoring from a golden image at boot, wiping the history of the last session away. I guess a lot of internet cafes do this sort of thing, either directly, or (these days) running from a VM, with multiple terminals, each logging into their own VM image. If desired, the transient snapshot could be promoted to a regular snapshot (say after a software upgrade). If desired, a different base snapshot could be selected (although I'm sure the file system would have to be restarted to do this) So optionally make the transient image permanent, effectively upgrading it to the golden image (presumably with a fallback to the previous golden image if necessary). From a caching perspective, this could make a noticable performance difference, since if you're running in a transient snapshot, the file system can be _extremely_ lazy about committing changes to disk. Indeed. I'm doing something here with a similar effect for root, except much less complicated and it doesn't require btrfs, tho btrfs snapshotting would be a useful if complicating variant. Basically all I did is stick ro in the mount-options for root, so when it would normally be remounted rw, it's remounted with all the extra operating options, but still ro. I only switch it to rw when I'm actively doing system maintenance. Since I have all the other options I want loaded and in fstab already, all I have to do is remount rw, and it automatically picks up the compression, autodefrag, etc, from fstab and the previous mount. Tho I don't use snapshots, instead preferring a backup of root, done manually when I've boot-tested the current config and believe it's stable enough, plus that it's time for a new backup. Since root is only 8 GiB in size, backup can and does consist of a simple mkfs on the backup (also 8 GiB), followed by mounting it and a mount-bind of root somewhere else so I can get at anything normally under a mountpoint and a straight copy won't accidentally stray into other filesystems, and copy everything over. fstab is already a symlink (effectively) pointing to fstab.working, with an fstab.backup already prepared as well, so after the copy I switch the fstab symlink pointer on the backup and modify an ID file (making it easier to double-check what root is actually mounted). I then umount the backup and the bind-mount, reboot, and select the grub menu entry that sets the kernel commandline root= to the backup instead of working copy, and verify that the backup is actually bootable. Thus I effectively have a working (normal root) and backup (backup root) golden image, with the working golden image mounted writable and updated whenever I update or modify system configuration, and the fallback image selectable from grub. Of course I have secondary and tertiary backups as well, tertiary not normally attached, just in case, as well. Gets rid of a lot of headaches, since I don't have to worry about root being corrupted in the normal crash-case at all, and if the working root /is/ ever unbootable either due to bad update or corruption while mounted writable, I can always boot to several levels of backup and have the fully working system I'm used to, including access to all manpages, X, the internet, etc, just as it was when I did the backup, to use as a recovery image. =:^) /home and /var/log (with others including the packages partition mounted only on demand) are of course mounted writable, with their own backups as well, but it's nice to have a fully functional and uncorrupted root complete with all tools and reference material, that I know will boot even if they're corrupted, to use when doing repair if they do get corrupted. =:^) I'm using fully independent filesystems instead of subvolumes and snapshots, since it didn't make any sense to me to risk putting all my data eggs in a single filesystem basket, and have them all broken at once if the bottom falls out, given that subvolumes and snapshots are still on the same filesystem, such that if one subvolume/snapshot is corrupted and unmountable, there's a good chance they're all gone. Better to have partition and filesystem barriers in place to contain the damage, particularly when corruption on the writable /var/log could easily mean the read-only root that I'd otherwise be using to repair /var/log, is corrupted as well. -- Duncan - List replies
Re: Possibility to have a transient snapshot?
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:27 AM, James West ja...@terminalsystems.com wrote: General idea would be to have a transient snapshot (optional quota support possibility here) on top of a base snapshot (possibly readonly). On system start/restart (whether clean or dirty), the transient snapshot would be flushed, and the system would restart the snapshot, basically restarting from the base snapshot. Sounds similar to this idea: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html About 1/3 of the way down it gets to a proposal to Btrfs as a way to get to a stateless system, which is basically what you want to be able to rollback to. A variation on this that might serve the use case better is seed device. You can either drop the added device that stores changes to the seed device, or the volume (seed+added device) can become another seed if you want to make the current state persistent at next boot. And still another possibility is overlayfs, which isn't Btrfs specific. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-btrfs in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
