Re: A disturbing article...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 áéåí ùìéùé, 8 áàå÷èåáø 2002, 23:11, Arie Folger ëúá òì 'Re: A disturbing article...': On Tuesday 08 October 2002 02:05, Michael Sternberg wrote: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1883 The above article is about somebody who had a terrible experience with RH8.0. It seems that his network settings and possibly some daemons and X ran amock. Anybody on list care to share experiences with RH8.0? Upgraders? Fresh installers? I have yet to use RedHat 8, but its clear that his experience was not positive not only for the fact that his desktop was slow (why would an errant eth interface affect the performance of X programs ? never happened to me), but most for the fact that a lot of user interactivity and system integrity aspects in Linux in general and Red Hat specificly suck nuts. I don't see any reason for the desktop switcher to cause Nautilus not to load (which is what I can deduce happened from the author's description), or any reason to use deskswitch at all - if you can use the login manager's session change. except for the fact that gdm hides that feature very well - granted, it's pretty and I use it at work as my main login (mainly as I want to showoff Linux), but its usability for newbies is terrible. - -- Oded ::.. ...all life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference between those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other. -- HPL, from The Silver Key -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9qDKrkltamOf8EzsRApGtAJ9d4cJcXi524RTtp8rtHAMHSx7rqgCdGVgk XLw7SOUypeBgCJ6YptMrqoc= =uzWx -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TAU's response to the complaint about one of the faculties website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 áéåí øáéòé, 9 áàå÷èåáø 2002, 00:31, Nadav Har'El ëúá òì 'Re: TAU's response to the complaint about one of the faculties website': Is viewing RTF really easier than viewing DOC on Linux? I can view DOC files on a text terminal using antiword (and bidiv to switch the Hebrew around, if applicable); How can I view RTF files? KWord has nice RTF support . I'm sure that other X Word processors has the same capability (QText does ;-) - -- Oded ::.. ...all life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference between those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other. -- HPL, from The Silver Key -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9qDTlkltamOf8EzsRAqhaAJ9KCCoezP0ornkmeza50qVX6p7/GACfUyNo MikeSNhKnMtdqjWwqBjVdAo= =UnpK -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: *OT*wired got a makeover
message sent. here is the message i sent. not really eloquent or anything, but i think its a start. simple and to the point: Hello, I am a concerned Israeli surfer. Why is your site not w3c compliant? the forum section in the end of an article cannot be seen in mozilla which is also the engine of Netscape. Aside from the fact that many users which are net savvy uses it and are probably a significant audience for ynet, AOL will soon make Netscape their default browser which means 35 million people will get a chance to use it. It is acceptable now that a site must adhere to w3c standards and all the major sites already updated their site accordingly. Just this week wired.com one of the oldest news site on the web changed their site to be w3c compliant. I would like to refer you to this link for further information: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,55675,00.html; * - * - * Tzahi Fadida [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My Cool Site: HTTP://WWW.My2Nis.Com * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:linux-il-bounce;cs.huji.ac.il]On Behalf Of Herouth Maoz Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *OT*wired got a makeover At 15:48 +0200 on 11/10/2002, Tzahi Fadida wrote: infact, they insisted that you could watch the site content even if you have netscape v1.0 checked it with lynx, it looks good Heh... Would you believe I still have a working copy of NCSA Mosaic lying around? Of course, I could only test it once I set up proxy, because apparently Wired doesn't work well with old HTTP 1.0 browsers... Results: many images are broken, some links are, too, but overall, the site is readable, and reminds me of the Good ol' days, when everything was black on grey with tiny inline images for a splash of color Anyway, I suggest sending a link to this article to those pesky web sites in Israel which still discriminate against black sheep like us. For example, ynet's adverts section (It's rather annoying to be looking for a job, finding that job search sites are closed to you, just because you don't happen to use a specific vendor's browser) Which is an opportunity for me to ask you all to send ynet your protest about this. The proper e-mail appears to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] Herouth -- EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HOME PAGE: http://herouth.port5.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 04:33:13PM +0200, Oded Arbel wrote: most for the fact that a lot of user interactivity and system integrity aspects in Linux in general and Red Hat specificly suck nuts. Heh. Thats total bs. If you can't configure it properly, don't blame the system. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Slightly OT] Itanium CPU time for rent?
I wonder - is there anywhere a machine running the already-not-so-new Itanium processor, where I can have (rent?) login access? I would like to do some benchmarking. Thanks, Dan. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: open source law?
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote about Re: open source law?: If you misunderstood their open source definition, don't feel bad: that's *Exactly* what Perens and his friends meant to do (see the Remaking the meme chapter in O'Reilly's Peer to Peer book). They deliberately chose a term that can be confused to mean something conservative and capitalistic, instead of the term free software that is more easily confused (?) with being communist, anti-business, anarchistic, left-wing liberal. I just found out that that chapter, written by Tim O'Reilly, is available freely online. See: http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2000/12/05/book_ch01_meme.html The Free Software vs. Open Source section starts on page 2. -- Nadav Har'El|Saturday, Oct 12 2002, 7 Heshvan 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Spelling mistakes left in for people who http://nadav.harel.org.il |feel the need to correct others. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Slightly OT] Itanium CPU time for rent?
On 10/12/2002 7:23 PM, Dan Kenigsberg wrote: I wonder - is there anywhere a machine running the already-not-so-new Itanium processor, where I can have (rent?) login access? I would like to do some benchmarking. Compaq/HP provides testing accounts on their servers, see http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/ Sagi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
online gamers
hi, I've became a games addict. yes, i know, i am 30 years old - so what ? i must admit that Quake III Arena and Unreal 2003 really grubbed me, and as a person that didn't spend to much time with computer games, i am finding myself in front of those games for hours...and hoursand hours. anyway, the question's are : 1) are there any people on this list that play online a LOT in the mentioned games ? 2) are there any severs in Israel for quake\unreal\ anything else similar. 3) if the answer is no, but we wish there were, i am interested in setting up a public game server...anyone else interested in helping ? (hardware, hosting, maintenance etc...) -- == Amir Tal Founder, Owner Whatsup, Hebrew Linux Portal Voice:+972-8-9363164 Fax: +972-8-9363164 Cell: +972-58-978979 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: www.whatsup.org.il == To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 áùáú, 12 áàå÷èåáø 2002, 17:38, Guy Cohen ëúá òì 'Re: A disturbing article...': On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 04:33:13PM +0200, Oded Arbel wrote: most for the fact that a lot of user interactivity and system integrity aspects in Linux in general and Red Hat specificly suck nuts. Heh. Thats total bs. If you can't configure it properly, don't blame the system. No - what you wrote is total bs. A system that works 100% after you read the total of two large instruction books and spend several days writing configuration files still sucks. an OS that meant for wide spread usage, especially by non-technical (even though computer literate as the article author's defines itself) good integration and predicatbility is everything, and you can say alot of things about Linux, but you can't in good faith say that it has good integration. If I use the system's configuration program to switch to another desktop and then switch back - I do expect to get back to exactly the same desktop I left, otherwise its a bug. - -- Oded ::.. I have been Foolish and Deluded, and I am a Bear of No Brain at All. -- Pooh -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9qH9pkltamOf8EzsRAlCNAJ9CGmWTOMO0ufUAk3W+DrloZ/4Z6QCdEpe5 mpGM4XobFXwAHR7agf/tFIk= =fqqA -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
Hi List,
I tend to concur with Oded,
The first problem is that Linux advocates usually do not understand just
how unusable and inappropriate Linux is for the average person, which
leads to the second problem, that there is no Linux distribution that
works out-of-the-box like Windows does. This isn't a problem of dumb
users, it's a design flaw in current Linux distributions.
Regards,
- yba
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Oded Arbel wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
áùáú, 12 áàå÷èåáø 2002, 17:38, Guy Cohen ëúá òì 'Re: A disturbing article...':
On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 04:33:13PM +0200, Oded Arbel wrote:
most for the fact that a lot of user interactivity and system integrity
aspects in Linux in general and Red Hat specificly suck nuts.
Heh. Thats total bs. If you can't configure it properly, don't
blame the system.
No - what you wrote is total bs. A system that works 100% after you read the
total of two large instruction books and spend several days writing
configuration files still sucks. an OS that meant for wide spread usage,
especially by non-technical (even though computer literate as the article
author's defines itself) good integration and predicatbility is everything,
and you can say alot of things about Linux, but you can't in good faith say
that it has good integration.
If I use the system's configuration program to switch to another desktop and
then switch back - I do expect to get back to exactly the same desktop I
left, otherwise its a bug.
- --
Oded
::..
I have been Foolish and Deluded,
and I am a Bear of No Brain at All.
-- Pooh
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mpGM4XobFXwAHR7agf/tFIk=
=fqqA
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Re: OpenOffice.org Hebrew
no hebrew support in the Impress module :( hopefully yet :) On Wednesday 09 October 2002 09:08, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Amir Tal wrote: this is the download page at openoffice.org : http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/1.0.1/index.html#localizations That version still does not have bidi support in it. Build 643 of openoffice includes bidi support in Write (the word processor and html editor). According to the features page it also includes bidi support in the power-point import filter, but I didn't check it. i am looking for the hebrew localized version, and cant find it on the list. does the english version have hebrew support in it ? is there a hebrew localized release that is not on this list ? No, there isn't, AFAIK -- Barak Kaufman To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 12 October 2002 21:41, you wrote: Hi List, I tend to concur with Oded, The first problem is that Linux advocates usually do not understand just how unusable and inappropriate Linux is for the average person, which leads to the second problem, that there is no Linux distribution that works out-of-the-box like Windows does. This isn't a problem of dumb users, it's a design flaw in current Linux distributions. I beg to differ. I willing to wager that 90% of windows users NEVER install their operating systems. Either the sys admin at the company they are at does it or the guy who sold them their computer (or some support guy once it gets broken) does it for them. Comparing windows ease of install with Linux is flawed since only professionals install windows (either sellers of computers or sys admins at companies) while we expect the average user to install Linux (since the system came pre installed with windows and there is a very small number of professionals who will do that work for you for pay and people do not usually want to pay for trying the new system out). Actually Linux works much better out of the box than windows *** IF *** you compare two machine which come scratched (nothing on the hard drive). But since machines don't come that way it *** looks *** like windows is easier to install. It's actually a lot harder to install and a lot messier (it takes at *** least *** several hours and a lot of know how to put the basic things on top of windows which comes pretty stipped down while Linux installation is rarely more than an hour or so and comes fully loaded). Please Please do not confuse ease of installation of something which people rarely install on their own (windows) with something that users are *** required *** to install if they want to use (Linux) Cheers, mark. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9qJ+DxlxDIcceXTgRAk4ZAKDPSa4Yr+QsOP9R11tC+D4gbEvO5gCeOWlQ pVmL9AnbPCHHoO2DkNYqL9A= =aPvW -END PGP SIGNATURE- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
here here. Computers are to be *used* by users and installed/configured by the professionals. Even linux :) On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 12:17:36AM +0200, Mark Veltzer wrote: On Saturday 12 October 2002 21:41, you wrote: Hi List, I tend to concur with Oded, The first problem is that Linux advocates usually do not understand just how unusable and inappropriate Linux is for the average person, which leads to the second problem, that there is no Linux distribution that works out-of-the-box like Windows does. This isn't a problem of dumb users, it's a design flaw in current Linux distributions. I beg to differ. I willing to wager that 90% of windows users NEVER install their operating systems. Either the sys admin at the company they are at does it or the guy who sold them their computer (or some support guy once it gets broken) does it for them. Comparing windows ease of install with Linux is flawed since only professionals install windows (either sellers of computers or sys admins at companies) while we expect the average user to install Linux (since the system came pre installed with windows and there is a very small number of professionals who will do that work for you for pay and people do not usually want to pay for trying the new system out). Actually Linux works much better out of the box than windows *** IF *** you compare two machine which come scratched (nothing on the hard drive). But since machines don't come that way it *** looks *** like windows is easier to install. It's actually a lot harder to install and a lot messier (it takes at *** least *** several hours and a lot of know how to put the basic things on top of windows which comes pretty stipped down while Linux installation is rarely more than an hour or so and comes fully loaded). Please Please do not confuse ease of installation of something which people rarely install on their own (windows) with something that users are *** required *** to install if they want to use (Linux) Cheers, mark. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
You know, I agree with you a 100%. As one who was the tech guy that did install windows on new / old computers I can testify that it is the case. Only computer literate people (read: proffesionals) actually do the installation by themselfes, other people go to shops and ask to repair / reinstall windows for them. Of course it costs money, but when you have a computer that you cannot work with you will pay. I tried to push linux instead of windows, but all I managed to achieve was hmm, interesting phrases, but no actuall install was performed besouse people changed their minds after I explained a little bit on Linux. (ie, they scared because it's not like windows) - Original Message - From: Mark Veltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Linux Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 12:17 AM Subject: Re: A disturbing article... -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 12 October 2002 21:41, you wrote: Hi List, I tend to concur with Oded, The first problem is that Linux advocates usually do not understand just how unusable and inappropriate Linux is for the average person, which leads to the second problem, that there is no Linux distribution that works out-of-the-box like Windows does. This isn't a problem of dumb users, it's a design flaw in current Linux distributions. I beg to differ. I willing to wager that 90% of windows users NEVER install their operating systems. Either the sys admin at the company they are at does it or the guy who sold them their computer (or some support guy once it gets broken) does it for them. Comparing windows ease of install with Linux is flawed since only professionals install windows (either sellers of computers or sys admins at companies) while we expect the average user to install Linux (since the system came pre installed with windows and there is a very small number of professionals who will do that work for you for pay and people do not usually want to pay for trying the new system out). Actually Linux works much better out of the box than windows *** IF *** you compare two machine which come scratched (nothing on the hard drive). But since machines don't come that way it *** looks *** like windows is easier to install. It's actually a lot harder to install and a lot messier (it takes at *** least *** several hours and a lot of know how to put the basic things on top of windows which comes pretty stipped down while Linux installation is rarely more than an hour or so and comes fully loaded). Please Please do not confuse ease of installation of something which people rarely install on their own (windows) with something that users are *** required *** to install if they want to use (Linux) Cheers, mark. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9qJ+DxlxDIcceXTgRAk4ZAKDPSa4Yr+QsOP9R11tC+D4gbEvO5gCeOWlQ pVmL9AnbPCHHoO2DkNYqL9A= =aPvW -END PGP SIGNATURE- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: A disturbing article...
I disagree. At my company I've installed many formatted machine with windows and had a very easy time performing the installation including setting up servers connecting to the network etc. I just recently installed linux at home and I still can't get ADSL to work on it (a whole week playing around with it). Actually installing linux is very easy but getting a linux system up and running requires some work while the most you need to on a windows system is install office or follow a couple of wizards. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
On Sun, Oct 13, 2002, Mark Veltzer wrote about Re: A disturbing article...: Actually Linux works much better out of the box than windows *** IF *** you compare two machine which come scratched (nothing on the hard drive). But since machines don't come that way it *** looks *** like windows is easier to install. It's actually a lot harder to install and a lot messier (it takes at Unfortunately, the Windows is easier to install crowd do have a point. Let's say you buy a typical home computer, with a modem, soundcard and one of those fancy video cards. Let's say you bought this computer without an OS, but the seller was decent and gave you all the CDs and booklets that came along with these devices. Now, try to install Windows. It will probably mostly work, but it is possible that one of your devices, say the graphics card, doesn't work, or isn't used to the full potential that you know it has. So you open the booklet you got with the graphics card, and it says there clearly if you have windows, install this-and-that driver from the packaged CD-ROM. You do, and suddenly you have perfect support for it. You go to bed smiling. Now, try to install Linux. Again, it will mostly work, but something doesn't, say the modem doesn't work. You open the booklet, but it says nothing about Linux. You look at the CD-ROM's contents - and it's all for various versions of Windows. So you call the guy who sold you the computer, and he tells you Sorry, I don't know anything about Linux, but the modem is fine. You call the modem maker, and they tell you Didn't you see the 'requires Windows 95 or better' text on the modem's box? You don't like aruing that Linux *is* better than Windows 95, so you hang up. You next call a geeky Linux-loving friend of yours that you haven't seen in a year, and after an hour on the phone, still nothing works. But to get rid of you, he points you to a mythical mailing list called linux-il. You join that lisk, and ask them help me please, my modem doesn't work!. Soon you get a barrage of replies telling you how stupid you were to say doesn't work and how proper questions should be written; you are even pointed to a number of URLs with what some supposedly-famous people said about how to ask questions properly. So you muster all your writing skills (finally that English Lit class in college paid off!) and you express your problems to the satisfaction of the dignified list members. Finally, someone on the list tells you in a pitying tone that the problem is that your modem is a winmodem. You are told that since it has a Lucent chip, you should try some driver from this-and-that- site. You try, and it doesn't work. You tell the list, and they laugh at you - what *did* you expect from a non-open-source driver written by greedy capitalistic bastards?, they ask. You decide to give up on linux-il, spend another couple of days researching this issue, and finally give up. You switch to Windows. You go to bed cursing Linus Torvald's mother. See why installing Linux isn't always that easy? :) This was obviously a fabricated account of an hypothetical installer, but unfortunately it's not very far from what happens all too frequently. Just in the last few days, I heard worse experiences. And not everybody is willing to spend a week on getting their Linux to work. (Sorry for playing the devil's advocate; In this case literally, considering what Google returned for go to hell ;)) *** least *** several hours and a lot of know how to put the basic things on top of windows which comes pretty stipped down while Linux installation is rarely more than an hour or so and comes fully loaded). This is true. But most people don't really need all those fancy stuff that comes with Linux. They don't need development tools because they cannot program. For the same reason they don't need interpreters for 7 different languages. They don't need viewers for 50 different file formats (postscript, etc., etc.) because if someone sends them such a file they just say what is that crap? send me something that Windows can read!. They don't need 8 text editors, 17 window managers and 57 clock applications when one suits them just fine. They do already have tools to connect to the internet, browse the web and play music. All they need extra is Office (which is free-as-in-can-be-stolen software), and perhaps a couple of other things like an Anti-Virus and ICQ. And installing these things is usually just couple of mouseclicks and zero dollars away - as simple as installing RPMs on Linux. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Oct 13 2002, 7 Heshvan 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Sign on a back of truck: Overtakers http://nadav.harel.org.il |beware, or you might meet the Undertaker = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word
Re: A disturbing article...
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:41:15 +0200 (IST) Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The first problem is that Linux advocates usually do not understand just how unusable and inappropriate Linux is for the average person, which The guy in the story had most problems in *configuring* Linux, not *using* Usually, people like these have other people configure their boxen for them be it Linux/Windows/Whatever. leads to the second problem, that there is no Linux distribution that works out-of-the-box like Windows does. No, they work differently, thanks god. But seriously, if you think Windows is somehow consistent and easy for computer newbies, I'll bet you never had to introduce it to those people (I did). Of course Windows is very intuitive for *windows users* which are a lot of people so should we stay compatible even when it doesn't make sense? BTW: for starters, check the behaviour of ALT-CTRL-DEL in: - Win9x - Win2K before login - Win2K after login consistent? intuitive? Usability of Linux is important and need a lot of improvements, but not necessarily those that are pointed to us by missguided windows newbies. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. --Doug Gwyn = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:00:37 +0200 Oded Arbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I use the system's configuration program to switch to another desktop and then switch back - I do expect to get back to exactly the same desktop I left, otherwise its a bug. Definitely. A system that works 100% after you read the total of two large instruction books and spend several days writing configuration files still sucks. Many people wrongly believe that the most effective tool is the one that is easiest to learn. This is a local optimization. A lot of times you have to invest some effort in order to reap the benefits later. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron .. Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 áéåí øàùåï, 13 áàå÷èåáø 2002, 00:17, Mark Veltzer ëúá òì 'Re: A disturbing article...': I beg to differ. I willing to wager that 90% of windows users NEVER install their operating systems. Either the sys admin at the company they are at does it or the guy who sold them their computer (or some support guy once it gets broken) does it for them. I disagree. my experience as the computer wiz in several hetrogenous user communities (i.e. all kinds of people) shows that most users do install their windows system - when you tell a guy (or a girl) who got a new computer to install windows, (s)he bitches a bit and calls you once or twice but does it. Actually Linux works much better out of the box than windows *** IF *** you compare two machine which come scratched (nothing on the hard drive). The issue which was discussed in the article wasn't about installing - the author specificly noted the fact that the installer was pretty easy and that's it. there where maybe 4 or 5 lines about the installation - all positive. the issues the author had with Linux was about the user experience. Please Please do not confuse ease of installation of something which people Please don't confuse ease of installation (which the modern linux distros are quite good at, debian not withstanding ;-) with good user experience. the system may be the easiest to install in the world, but if the first time a user wants to change his window manager he gets something no one but an expert unixer knows how to use, and the second time he get a window manager with menus full of applications that does not work, then something here is very very wrong. The last time I installed Linux, with Mandrake 9, it was very smooth. things were running indeed out of the box, but a friend who used an account on the same computer kept having problems - things didn't work for him, things crashed, he couldn't configure the system to do things his way, the browser wouldn't display the sites he wanted to visit properly, and so on. as a long time linux users and a some what proficient system administrator I encoutered many of the so-called problems he had, but for me those were easy to fix or I dismissed them as 'its just something that happens when you use computers/software/linux'. as a very intelligent person who's not afraid of computers and picks things up pretty easily, my friend still had problem with what is probably the easiest Linux around. if he'll stick around long enough, he would probably learn to fix it himself or take it in stride - but the sad fact is that most people won't stick around. probably because that for most people, like my friend, the computer is just a tool - if it works I'll use it, if it doesn't - I'll get something that does. and for those people - windows is something that does work - its well integrated, its predictable and as long as it doesn't crash I can get it to do my stuff w/o needing to understand how it does it. - -- Oded ::.. The big question is why in the course of evolution the males permitted themselves to be so totally eclipsed by the females. Why do they tolerate this total subservience, this wretched existence as outcasts who are hungry all the time? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9qLxzkltamOf8EzsRAnfAAJsHL15oMKp5n/LYek3tWLmUwAtWTwCfVu9s ZIi44cPxOGk12k7r5tTRj3g= =3buS -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A disturbing article...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 áéåí øàùåï, 13 áàå÷èåáø 2002, 00:33, Oron Peled ëúá òì 'Re: A disturbing article...': A system that works 100% after you read the total of two large instruction books and spend several days writing configuration files still sucks. Many people wrongly believe that the most effective tool is the one that is easiest to learn. This is a local optimization. A lot of times you have to invest some effort in order to reap the benefits later. I don't want to fscking learn how to read my fscking mail ! I expect it to be 'next', 'next', 'finish' , 'read mail'. I'm willing to put the extra effort and type in my user name, password, e-mail address and mail server - that's it . no reading textual manual pages, no tinkering around inside confusing configuration files. granted - you can do more with mutt then with outlook express, but while the mutt user figures out how to operate his 1337 software, the outlook express user gets more work done. while there are cases where your observation is correct, specificly highly specific professional programs such as development tools, most users don't want to operate their everyday software and they certainly don't want to learn it. and you know what - they are right. - -- Oded ::.. Top 25 Explanations by Programmers why their programs doesn't work: 13.Oh, it's just a feature. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9qMAZkltamOf8EzsRAgo0AJ9eFBoQI9IZ1P1HdftwBvHrD3auVACfaeHE 6orKlRZKMmYT589fXV3h3Tk= =Q3Uq -END PGP SIGNATURE- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: XF86Config problem
From: Amir Tal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Pearson [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: XF86Config problem Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:34:29 +0200 On Tuesday 08 October 2002 06:25 pm, Daniel Pearson wrote: On Tue, Oct 08, 2002, Amir Tal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote the following: this is mandrake 9, fresh install . my card is NVidia GEforce MX. everything worked very nicly after installation. i rebooted the machine today, and X will not load. it complains that no screens found, which is kinda redicules since i didnt change anything in the config file, and didnt change anything in my hardware since the last time it worked. Look for clues in /var/log/XFree86.0.log. If it doesn't make any sense to you, try posting it to the list and let others take a look at it. log attached. anyone ? tal. XFree86.0.log May be it will not help but. I had the same problem with my Radeon VE card. It worked fine and then just stoped working with the same message. The problem was in the TV out. If your card has a TV out and you have connected something to it, just unplug the cable and then reboot your machine twice and try to start the X server. Regards. S.A. _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
