Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Roman Ovseitsev]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Omer Zak  wrote:

>
> How are today's ThinkPads (which are probably different from ThinkPads
> from years ago)?
>

There seem to be a notion for slimming down things. Less ports and no DVD
(aka secondary HDD bay) bay anymore. Keyboard on newer models is a bit
weird too. F keys row has been combined with media keys and
end/insert/delete/etc keys have very unusual arrangement. But Linux seems
to be still well supported.
I am using T420 which probably won't fit your needs since it's a bit aged
and can't do more than 2 monitors. But I had a chance to use their latest
T450 model for a few days with Linux and it seemed ok with no apparent
issues. It has x3 USB 3.0 ports, VGA + mini DP, 16GB RAM max, matte
display, M.2 SSD slot (don't know if it can be used as boot device), and
the rest of the usual - RJ-45, WiFi, Bluetooth, multicard reader, WWAN
depending on the configuration. No idea about maximum supported monitors
though.
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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Omer Zak]

People replied to my message in private and to the mailing list. In the
following, I'll summarize their points and respond to them.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(1/9) Shachar Shemesh/Roman Ovseitsev:
Why connect internal monitor + 3 external monitors?

My response:
I was not clear in expressing my wishes.
What I'd like to be able is to work at home with three monitors. I do
not care if it is 3 external monitors (with disabled internal monitor)
or 2 external monitors with an active internal monitor.

Roman Ovseitsev's point about Skylake based laptop: not relevant since I
do not need more than 3 monitors total.

Thanks also to Yaron deLeeuw for the tip about looking for display port
1.2.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(2/9) Shachar Shemesh:
Recommends Dell, which has reasonable Linux support.
Uses Dell Latitude E7440.

My response:
What does "reasonable" mean here? Are there any features not well
supported by Linux?
Do other models in the E7000 series have as good reputation? If yes,
I'll check if any of them supports total of 3 displays.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(3/9) Roman Ovseitsev:
Uses ThinkPad T 14" for several years and is happy with it.

My response:
How are today's ThinkPads (which are probably different from ThinkPads
from years ago)?

-=-=-=-=-=-

(4/9) Shachar Shemesh/Roman Ovseitsev:
Latest models don't have eSATA port, relying upon USB-3 instead.

My response:
It is a pity, because (according to Wikipedia), SATA 3.2 provides
16Gbit/sec transfer speed while USB 3.1 provides only 10Gbit/sec.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(5/9) Boris Shtrasman:
How about Legacy and UEFI (or only UEFI) mode?

My response:
UEFI should be OK, but I need to disable secure boot so that I'll be
able to upgrade Linux kernels at whim.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(6/9) Boris Shtrasman:
How about vPRO / AMT?

My response:
Not relevant for me, because the laptop will be for my personal use and
not for corporate use.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(7/9) Boris Shtrasman:
USB 3 vs. USB 2?

My response:
USB 3 is not mandatory (unless needed as a substitute for missing eSATA
connections).

-=-=-=-=-=-

(8/9) Boris Shtrasman:
UMTS/4G adapter (for cellular communication)?

My response:
Prefer not to have - might shock me by unexpected cellular phone
charges.

-=-=-=-=-=-

(9/9) Service providers:
People remarked that Dell provides good service in Israel, whereas
Neupan's service is bad.

-=-=-=-=-=-

--- Omer


On Sun, 2015-11-29 at 11:05 +0200, Omer Zak wrote:
> After long time of not looking for hardware recommendations, I am again
> looking for up-to-date hardware recommendations.
> 
> This time, I'd like to buy a laptop which will serve as my main
> workhorse PC at home and outside of it.
> 
> As things look like, I would like it to have:
> - 16GB RAM.
> - Ability to connect 2-3 external displays (possibly via a docking
> station).
> - External SATA interface, with which I can connect an external hard
> disk and work with it at full speed. This is in addition to internal
> hard disk (500GB or more, capacity not critical).
> - Battery time is not critical, as I expect to work near electricity
> anyway.
> - Several USB sockets
> - WiFi
> - Wired Ethernet socket
> - Full Linux compatibility
> 
> So far someone recommended Macbook Pro with 13" display size.
> 
> Any recommended brands, models, off-brands?
> Any brands to keep away from?
> Any specs to ask for?
> Any of the above specs NOT to ask for and why?

-- 
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and its display device is grievously short of pixels.  Can anyone help?
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Michael Shiloh]

After much consideration, I purchased a Thinkpad W541. The specific model
was important because I make heavy use of the Trackpoint(tm)  style pointer
and other newer models don't have this.

My version has a massive 2880 x 1620 pixel display, as I often have
multiple things open.

Linux install hung near the beginning the first few times, then continued
flawlessly. I was using an Ubuntu live CD I can't recall what I did to get
past the hanging.

I routinely use an external projector (college professor) and there is only
one projector at my university that sometimes gives me trouble. Lately I've
had no trouble using HDMI via the mini DP with this projector. Other
projectors seem to work fine with either VGA or mini DP.

My Thinkpad has 4 USB ports. I believe 2 of them are 3.0.

No external eSATA. I removed my DVD drive and bought an adapter to install
a second disk drive, which is solid state, on which I installed Linux. I
retained the original Windows disk as I sometimes have to work in Windows.

Happy to answer other questions about this if interested

Michael

I've never tried three monitors but I would like to. If I do I will report
back.

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Roman Ovseitsev  wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Omer Zak  wrote:
>
>>
>> How are today's ThinkPads (which are probably different from ThinkPads
>> from years ago)?
>>
>
> There seem to be a notion for slimming down things. Less ports and no DVD
> (aka secondary HDD bay) bay anymore. Keyboard on newer models is a bit
> weird too. F keys row has been combined with media keys and
> end/insert/delete/etc keys have very unusual arrangement. But Linux seems
> to be still well supported.
> I am using T420 which probably won't fit your needs since it's a bit aged
> and can't do more than 2 monitors. But I had a chance to use their latest
> T450 model for a few days with Linux and it seemed ok with no apparent
> issues. It has x3 USB 3.0 ports, VGA + mini DP, 16GB RAM max, matte
> display, M.2 SSD slot (don't know if it can be used as boot device), and
> the rest of the usual - RJ-45, WiFi, Bluetooth, multicard reader, WWAN
> depending on the configuration. No idea about maximum supported monitors
> though.
>
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>
>
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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Shachar Shemesh]

On 29/11/15 17:42, Roman Ovseitsev wrote:
> If you need 3 external monitors on top of the internal, without
> discrete GPU the only option is a Skylake based laptop. It can pull
> off up to 5 monitors through HDMI/DP according to the spec. AFAIK
> older architectures support only 3 monitors.
> However since it just got released only a couple months back, there
> probably not that many laptops to choose from yet. If any at all.
> Mobile CPUs with better GPU are still not released so most vendors
> probably waiting for them.
> As far as Linux support for Skylake there are still some issue which
> you might want to be aware of if you decide to go down that road:
> ACPI doesn't work with some motherboards. Not an issue though if you
> don't mind disabling it in the kernel. Graphics drivers work properly
> only starting with 4.3 kernel.
>
> As for the laptop, I've been using ThinkPad T 14" line for years and
> overall the build quality, Linux support, repairability, and port
> selection are rather good. Although I think the latest models have
> eSATA port removed and come with only 3 USB ports, but I haven't checked.
Actually, my latitude also doesn't have eSATA. I think USB3 is fast
enough to not really require eSATA any more.

Shachar
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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Yaron de Leeuw]

On 29 November 2015 at 15:48, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:

> On 29/11/2015 11:05, Omer Zak wrote:
>
> - Ability to connect 2-3 external displays (possibly via a docking
> station).
>
> May I ask why? Do you plan to connect the internal monitor + 3 external
> monitors simultaneously?
>
> You need to be aware that even if there are so many ports (and my
> laptop+dock does have that many ports), it does not mean you can actually
> use all of them at the same time. That is a function of several factors,
> GPU memory being possibly just one of which. A laptop with a very high end
> graphics adapter (which is what you are implicitly asking here) would be
> very expensive.
>

Regarding multiple external displays, the display port 1.2  standard
supports 'multi-stream'.
This means that some monitors allow 'daisy-chaining', and there are also
monitor hubs available [1],
so there is no 1:1 mapping between ports and monitors.

Of-course your graphics card has to support it, and the bandwidth is
limited (up to 4 1080p displays for example)[2],
and Shachar's comments about GPU memory and capabilities are correct,
but it should work  (in Linux kernels >= 3.17 )

Yaron


[1]
http://www.startech.com/AV/Displayport-Converters/Triple-Head-DisplayPort-Multi-Monitor-MST-Hub~MSTDP123DP
[2]
http://www.displayport.org/cables/driving-multiple-displays-from-a-single-displayport-output/
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Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Omer Zak]

After long time of not looking for hardware recommendations, I am again
looking for up-to-date hardware recommendations.

This time, I'd like to buy a laptop which will serve as my main
workhorse PC at home and outside of it.

As things look like, I would like it to have:
- 16GB RAM.
- Ability to connect 2-3 external displays (possibly via a docking
station).
- External SATA interface, with which I can connect an external hard
disk and work with it at full speed. This is in addition to internal
hard disk (500GB or more, capacity not critical).
- Battery time is not critical, as I expect to work near electricity
anyway.
- Several USB sockets
- WiFi
- Wired Ethernet socket
- Full Linux compatibility

So far someone recommended Macbook Pro with 13" display size.

Any recommended brands, models, off-brands?
Any brands to keep away from?
Any specs to ask for?
Any of the above specs NOT to ask for and why?

--- Omer


-- 
PHP - the language of the Vogons.
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html


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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Shachar Shemesh]

 

On 29/11/2015 11:05, Omer Zak wrote: 

> - Ability to connect 2-3 external displays (possibly via a docking
> station).

May I ask why? Do you plan to connect the internal monitor + 3 external
monitors simultaneously? 

You need to be aware that even if there are so many ports (and my
laptop+dock does have that many ports), it does not mean you can
actually use all of them at the same time. That is a function of several
factors, GPU memory being possibly just one of which. A laptop with a
very high end graphics adapter (which is what you are implicitly asking
here) would be very expensive. 

Aside from that, I tend to recommend Dell. They have reasonable Linux
support, and they have on site next business day three year service as a
standard for most laptops. This means that you do not have to give up
your computer for several days while waiting for it to be serviced under
warranty. This, in turn, means that you can afford to actually fix those
errors that are annoying, but not annoying enough to go without the
computer for several days. 

My laptop is Dell latitude E7440. It only supports two simultaneous
displays, but otherwise seems to check all of your boxes. 

Shachar 
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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Roman Ovseitsev]

If you need 3 external monitors on top of the internal, without discrete
GPU the only option is a Skylake based laptop. It can pull off up to 5
monitors through HDMI/DP according to the spec. AFAIK older architectures
support only 3 monitors.
However since it just got released only a couple months back, there
probably not that many laptops to choose from yet. If any at all. Mobile
CPUs with better GPU are still not released so most vendors probably
waiting for them.
As far as Linux support for Skylake there are still some issue which you
might want to be aware of if you decide to go down that road:
ACPI doesn't work with some motherboards. Not an issue though if you don't
mind disabling it in the kernel. Graphics drivers work properly only
starting with 4.3 kernel.

As for the laptop, I've been using ThinkPad T 14" line for years and
overall the build quality, Linux support, repairability, and port selection
are rather good. Although I think the latest models have eSATA port removed
and come with only 3 USB ports, but I haven't checked.


On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Omer Zak  wrote:

> After long time of not looking for hardware recommendations, I am again
> looking for up-to-date hardware recommendations.
>
> This time, I'd like to buy a laptop which will serve as my main
> workhorse PC at home and outside of it.
>
> As things look like, I would like it to have:
> - 16GB RAM.
> - Ability to connect 2-3 external displays (possibly via a docking
> station).
> - External SATA interface, with which I can connect an external hard
> disk and work with it at full speed. This is in addition to internal
> hard disk (500GB or more, capacity not critical).
> - Battery time is not critical, as I expect to work near electricity
> anyway.
> - Several USB sockets
> - WiFi
> - Wired Ethernet socket
> - Full Linux compatibility
>
> So far someone recommended Macbook Pro with 13" display size.
>
> Any recommended brands, models, off-brands?
> Any brands to keep away from?
> Any specs to ask for?
> Any of the above specs NOT to ask for and why?
>
> --- Omer
>
>
> --
> PHP - the language of the Vogons.
> My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/
>
> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
> I may be affiliated in any way.
> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>
>
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> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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Re: Up-to-date hardware (laptop) recommendations?

[Shachar Shemesh]

On 29/11/15 21:02, Omer Zak wrote:
> (1/9) Shachar Shemesh/Roman Ovseitsev:
> Why connect internal monitor + 3 external monitors?
>
> My response:
> I was not clear in expressing my wishes.
> What I'd like to be able is to work at home with three monitors. I do
> not care if it is 3 external monitors (with disabled internal monitor)
> or 2 external monitors with an active internal monitor.
>
> Roman Ovseitsev's point about Skylake based laptop: not relevant since I
> do not need more than 3 monitors total.
My laptop has a fairly basic adapter. I seem to recall, though I have no
idea when I tried, that only two monitors simulteneously are supported.
I'm fairly certain that this is a GPU memory issue, though, as xrandr
does list a hefty list of potential ports (including, when docked,
subdisplays of the display port).
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> (2/9) Shachar Shemesh:
> Recommends Dell, which has reasonable Linux support.
> Uses Dell Latitude E7440.
>
> My response:
> What does "reasonable" mean here? Are there any features not well
> supported by Linux?
> Do other models in the E7000 series have as good reputation? If yes,
> I'll check if any of them supports total of 3 displays.
I can't think of anything that did not work for me, including setting
the track pad sensitivity, controlling the built in keyboard backlight
from the keyboard shortcut, and disabling/enabling the trackpad from the
keyboard shortcuts. Ubuntu 15.04 with kubuntu proved somewhat unstable
when docking/undocking (or, generally, when adding and removing the
external monitor). If you're willing to live with "dock, set monitor
state, logout and log in", then this is nothing serious.

I've also had trouble with the external monitor going blank when docked
sometimes. I've ended up swapping and swapping and swapping hardware
with others in the office, eventually blaming the motherboard. Dell's
support replaced it, and eventually the problem was resolved (it has
recently came back, but I havn't started the hardware swapping debugging
yet).

So, all in all, I have not come across anything that did not work for
me. You don't even need Windows/Dos to upgrade the BIOS. Just place the
BIOS upgrade file (an .EXE) on the UEFI boot partition, and use the BIOS
boot menu to select "BIOS upgrade".

There are some driver bugs, but nothing serious IMHO.
> (5/9) Boris Shtrasman:
> How about Legacy and UEFI (or only UEFI) mode?
>
> My response:
> UEFI should be OK, but I need to disable secure boot so that I'll be
> able to upgrade Linux kernels at whim.
At least Ubuntu have a signed GRUB, which means that the kernels need
not be signed at all (which defeats the whole purpose of secure UEFI,
but that's Microsoft's problem, not ours). My laptop does, in fact,
support legacy boot, but I ended up using UEFI anyways (I wanted to
experiment with it). I did end up disabling the secure UEFI boot, though
I don't think I had to.

One thing I did not expect was during motherboard replaement. With UEFI
the BIOS needs to know which OSes it is booting, which means that merely
replacing the BIOS and plugging in the same disk would not boot. The
BIOS has Windows preconfigured, but that's no help for obvious reasons.
You need to keep an Ubuntu DoK handy and do recovery reinstall of GRUB
to get the machine going again.

Also, Ubuntu install has great difficulty to install a legacy boot
Ubuntu if the live DoK was booted in UEFI mode and vice versa. Keep that
in mind during initial installation.

Their standard way to create the DoK these days is to take the ISO and
dd it on a DoK. This, suprisingly, creates a DoK that is bootable in
both legacy and UEFI mode. They managed to cram a bootloader, a UEFI
boot partition and an El Torrito boot loader in to the same image.

Shachar
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