Re: HTML/CSS font sizes
Yonah Russ wrote: That is the exact opposite point of the Internet- no offense. You have no clue who is browsing your website. The person could be color blind, or totally blind, or deaf or dyslexic, or motorically challenged, or just Old. Everyone sees a web page differently. Are they using 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768? True, it's nice to make a nice looking website but your goal has to be the information in the website - not the way the website looks. The design should be a secondary factor. People that are interested in changing the size of the text on your website may be using screen magnifiers, or may be using personal style sheets to overide your styles. They may be hearing your webpage instead of reading it. They may have the pictures turned off. I know. But I want my website to look good even for these people. I don't want them to think that my website is ugly just because it looks ugly on their browser, even though they could use Opera (for example) to zoom it the whole site. Compare it to a painting or a movie. The author or the painting or movie wants people to see his work as it is. He doesn't want people to change the way it looks when they see it. So the same it with the web graphic designer and webmaster. I checked (for example) how my website looks with no style and it looks terrible. I don't want anybody to see my website this way! The basic questions you need to ask are: 1) is all the information there without the pictures. 2) is all the information there without sound (if you have a narrarated flash intro- use subtitles) 3) is the information organized in a logical manner (using tables for design often breaks this) 3) lastly - does it look good in default installations of IE 5+, Mozilla 1.6+, Firefox, Opera, Safari I can't check each page with all the 5 browsers. Time is not infinite, you know. So I think there should be a standard - much like in PDF. In PDF you can't change text size, but you can zoom in and out. I think this is the correct way to handle it. Sometimes the information can't be there without pictures. For example, a website about paintings. The pictures ARE the information! Best Regards, Uri Even-Chen Speedy Net Raanana, Israel. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013 Website: www.uri.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] HTML/CSS font sizes
Uri Even-Chen wrote: Ilya Konstantinov wrote: Common sense of web design: If you're a web designer who is interested in keeping his work's ARTISTIC INTEGRITY in the face of all those erratic, unpredictable USERS conspiring to mess it up, then you'd be better off authoring Flash movies or PDFs, where you have the maximum amount of control and the users have the minimal amount of flexibility. I want to be able to create a graphic designed website which has the advantages of PDF, but also to be able to use HTML features such as links, forms, etc. I want all users to enjoy my website, but users who use Firefox and change the text size will not be able to enjoy my website - it looks ugly! People with bad eye-sight will not be able to enjoy your web site when it has a constant-sized font: They couldn't read it! Besides, ultimately, the user should have the control, not the artist. If the user changed his font size, DPI or forced his own fonts instead of webpage's, he did it for a reason and his decision should be respected. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes
On 3/26/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yonah Russ wrote: People that are interested in changing the size of the text on your website may be using screen magnifiers, or may be using personal style sheets to overide your styles. They may be hearing your webpage instead of reading it. They may have the pictures turned off.I know.But I want my website to look good even for these people.Idon't want them to think that my website is ugly just because it looksugly on their browser, even though they could use Opera (for example) to zoom it the whole site.Compare it to a painting or a movie.Theauthor or the painting or movie wants people to see his work as it is.He doesn't want people to change the way it looks when they see it.So the same it with the web graphic designer and webmaster.I checked (forexample) how my website looks with no style and it looks terrible.Idon't want anybody to see my website this way! But that's exactly the point. There are people that will see the site that way because they don't see at all or because they need very high contrast to read or for whatever reason. Do you think that blind people don't go to movies? The basic questions you need to ask are: 1) is all the information there without the pictures. 2) is all the information there without sound (if you have a narrarated flash intro- use subtitles) 3) is the information organized in a logical manner (using tables for design often breaks this) 3) lastly - does it look good in default installations of IE 5+, Mozilla 1.6+, Firefox, Opera, SafariI can't check each page with all the 5 browsers.Time is not infinite,you know.So I think there should be a standard - much like in PDF.In PDF you can't change text size, but you can zoom in and out.I thinkthis is the correct way to handle it. But zooming is not the only way people deal with web pages they view. It is very narrow minded to think that way. I hardly think that PDF is a format to be so amazed with. With proper web design you can do amazing things with your information. You can control the way a site is presented over various medium- aural, screen, print. You can link automatically to different translations. If you really want you can create multiple stylesheets for multiple zoom levels and create 3 different versions of the web page(but that again is missing the point a little). You can present the information in one visual order while presenting it in a different machine order- this is great for designing with screen readers in mind- you can move long lists of links after the content but display them visually before the content for sighted browsers. Sometimes the information can't be there without pictures.For example, a website about paintings.The pictures ARE the information! Not true- a well built site about paintings would have a longdesc tag for each picture describing the painting, who painted it, points of interest, etc. Do you think that blind people don't paint? In addition, there is always the classic example of using colors like green and red to indicate good and bad or functional and nonfunctional. To a color blind person (8% of all males I believe) that has no meaning. A properly designed site needs to have text along with the color to describe the same information ie. write the word 'Good' in green and the word 'Bad' in red. yonah Best Regards,Uri Even-ChenSpeedy NetRaanana, Israel.E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Phone: +972-9-7715013Website: www.uri.co.il
Re: Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes
On Sun, Mar 26, 2006, Yonah Russ wrote about Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes: But zooming is not the only way people deal with web pages they view. It is very narrow minded to think that way. I hardly think that PDF is a format to be so amazed with. With proper web design you can do amazing things with your information. You can control the way a site is presented over various I think this is a very important point to remember. For example, something that often happens to me (and I have pretty normal vision...) with PDFs is that I zoom in to get the text larger on the screen, but then, a full page (a concept which is central to PDF but luckily not to HTML) doesn't fit on the screen, and then I need to start scrolling horizontally and vertically to see the full page. It's so much easier for me to view a long HTML page... The problem is that PDF is great for making exact copies of what the author intended (e.g., print an article exactly like the one the author printed on his printer). HTML is great for showing content in the way the *viewer* intended (allowing him or her to change the font size, the window size, and so on). -- Nadav Har'El|Sunday, Mar 26 2006, 26 Adar 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy http://nadav.harel.org.il |every minute of it. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes
Nadav Har'El wrote: The problem is that PDF is great for making exact copies of what the author intended (e.g., print an article exactly like the one the author printed on his printer). HTML is great for showing content in the way the *viewer* intended (allowing him or her to change the font size, the window size, and so on). I want to have something with the advantages of both PDF and HTML. I want my users to see exactly what I intended, but also to be able to link between pages, use forms etc. It works with CSS on Internet Explorer, Opera, and also Firefox - but only if you don't change the text size. That's the problem. I know I can do it with Flash, but personally I don't like Flash too much. I prefer HTML with CSS. Flash has its own disadvantages. For example - forms, copy/paste etc. Maybe HTML CSS should have a better standard, something like PDF. So it will be possible to create websites which look the same for users of all browsers. If people have a specific sight problem, their case could be handled specifically. For example, by zooming in and out of a page, or changing colors etc. Best Regards, Uri Even-Chen Speedy Net Raanana, Israel. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013 Website: www.uri.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes
On Sun, Mar 26, 2006, Uri Even-Chen wrote about Re: Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes: I want to have something with the advantages of both PDF and HTML. I want my users to see exactly what I intended, but also to be able to link between pages, use forms etc. It works with CSS on Internet Explorer, Opera, and also Firefox - but only if you don't change the text size. That's the problem. Why is text size the only problem? Aren't you also bothered about the user's ability to, for example, change the browser window's width? When the user does this, the text lines get shorter and paragraphs may get longer, causing images to look too small, or whatever. Maybe HTML CSS should have a better standard, something like PDF. So it will be possible to create websites which look the same for users of all browsers. If people have a specific sight problem, their case could be handled specifically. For example, by zooming in and out of a page, or changing colors etc. I still don't understand how the page can be the same as the author saw it if you allow something as basic as resizing the browser window. Instead of being the same, wouldn't it be better to give the author better control of stating his intentions? For example, perhaps if HTML had an attribute for images that make them automatically resize to fill a certain box, that would make them behave as you want? P.S. If you genuinely don't understand why Firefox's text size not (zoom) feature works the way it works, let me give you an explanation. On many (too many) Web pages), the authors specify a very small font, which perhaps looks good to them (20 year olds with a 30 display) but to many users the text is too small to comfortably read; it doesn't have to be blind or nearly-blind people - it could be ordinary people who sit somewhat farther from the screen, or are just tired of reading pages upon pages of tiny text and want to see it larger. BUT, they want the text to be enlarged, they have absolutely no need for the graphics to grow: the bullets don't need to be larger circles, the site's logo doesn't need to be larger, and pictures (say, in a news site) don't need to be made larger and ugly (which is typically what happens when you artificially enlarge an image). As I already said, my vision is relatively normal, and I find myself at least once a week using Firefox's control-+ (text size) feature on some annoying site. The behavior that you asked for (or at least, I understood you asked for) doesn't make much sense to typical users like myself, and worse: while you think it will make the site look better, the zooming of images might, I think, actually make it look worse, with ugly pixelated auto-enlarged images. -- Nadav Har'El|Sunday, Mar 26 2006, 26 Adar 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Martin Luther King said I have a dream, http://nadav.harel.org.il |not I have a plan. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: HTML/CSS font sizes
On 3/26/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe HTML CSS should have a better standard, something like PDF.Soit will be possible to create websites which look the same for users ofall browsers.If people have a specific sight problem, their case could be handled specifically.For example, by zooming in and out of a page,or changing colors etc. Not to start a war or anything but you obviously have no clue how much work goes into writing the standards at the W3C. You have probably never read the standards and if you read them, you obviously didn't understand them or how to use them. The Internet is about publishing information and not about making websites. Websites are just a byproduct. The key to the success of the internet is the way it works. Anyone can decide how and what to do with the information you put on the internet. Spiders can index it, make it searchable. Other programs can decide if your business is doing well by monitoring news traffic and analyst columns. Other programs can filter it so kids don't see things they shouldn't. People who are blind can listen to it and people that are deaf can read it. The key is that the browser decides what to do with it and it is not a bad thing. I'm not saying the standards are perfect. They are for sure not, but there is no way to create a standard to handle everyone's problems- the standard defines that people can handle their own problems however they want and it's the web designers job to give them all the information they need in order to do so. yonah Best Regards,Uri Even-ChenSpeedy NetRaanana, Israel.E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Phone: +972-9-7715013Website: www.uri.co.il= To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] withthe word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the commandecho unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HTML/CSS font sizes
Nadav Har'El wrote: Why is text size the only problem? Aren't you also bothered about the user's ability to, for example, change the browser window's width? When the user does this, the text lines get shorter and paragraphs may get longer, causing images to look too small, or whatever. If you use tables, you can avoid such things from happening. For example, look at http://www.speedy.co.il/ or http://www.pazgal.com/ (my websites). Resize the windows. The websites don't change, you only have to scroll it if the window it too small. I still don't understand how the page can be the same as the author saw it if you allow something as basic as resizing the browser window. Instead of being the same, wouldn't it be better to give the author better control of stating his intentions? For example, perhaps if HTML had an attribute for images that make them automatically resize to fill a certain box, that would make them behave as you want? I think the HTML/CSS standard should also have an option of resizing websites to the size of the window. So if you resize the window, images and tables will resize automatically. It's possible with tables, but not with images (as far as I know). P.S. If you genuinely don't understand why Firefox's text size not (zoom) feature works the way it works, let me give you an explanation. On many (too many) Web pages), the authors specify a very small font, which perhaps looks good to them (20 year olds with a 30 display) but to many users the text is too small to comfortably read; it doesn't have to be blind or nearly-blind people - it could be ordinary people who sit somewhat farther from the screen, or are just tired of reading pages upon pages of tiny text and want to see it larger. BUT, they want the text to be enlarged, they have absolutely no need for the graphics to grow: the bullets don't need to be larger circles, the site's logo doesn't need to be larger, and pictures (say, in a news site) don't need to be made larger and ugly (which is typically what happens when you artificially enlarge an image). As I already said, my vision is relatively normal, and I find myself at least once a week using Firefox's control-+ (text size) feature on some annoying site. The behavior that you asked for (or at least, I understood you asked for) doesn't make much sense to typical users like myself, and worse: while you think it will make the site look better, the zooming of images might, I think, actually make it look worse, with ugly pixelated auto-enlarged images. Try to use Opera and see what I meant. Sometimes the website is built in a way that the proportion between the text and the graphics is fixed. If the proportion is changes, the website will break. I already wrote about Google ads. Here's another example: enter http://www.pazgal.com/contact/ , press control-+ a few times and see what happens. Try it with Firefox, Internet Explorer and Opera. See what happens with each of them. The problem is, Firefox ignores CSS text size when changing the default text size. I understand some people like it, but some don't. I don't. Best Regards, Uri Even-Chen Speedy Net Raanana, Israel. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013 Website: www.uri.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HTML/CSS font sizes
On 3/26/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yonah Russ wrote: People that are interested in changing the size of the text on your website may be using screen magnifiers, or may be using personal style sheets to overide your styles. They may be hearing your webpage instead of reading it. They may have the pictures turned off.I know.But I want my website to look good even for these people.Idon't want them to think that my website is ugly just because it looksugly on their browser, even though they could use Opera (for example) to zoom it the whole site.Compare it to a painting or a movie.Theauthor or the painting or movie wants people to see his work as it is.He doesn't want people to change the way it looks when they see it.So the same it with the web graphic designer and webmaster.I checked (forexample) how my website looks with no style and it looks terrible.Idon't want anybody to see my website this way! But that's exactly the point. There are people that will see the site that way because they don't see at all or because they need very high contrast to read or for whatever reason. Do you think that blind people don't go to movies? The basic questions you need to ask are: 1) is all the information there without the pictures. 2) is all the information there without sound (if you have a narrarated flash intro- use subtitles) 3) is the information organized in a logical manner (using tables for design often breaks this) 3) lastly - does it look good in default installations of IE 5+, Mozilla 1.6+, Firefox, Opera, SafariI can't check each page with all the 5 browsers.Time is not infinite,you know.So I think there should be a standard - much like in PDF.In PDF you can't change text size, but you can zoom in and out.I thinkthis is the correct way to handle it. But zooming is not the only way people deal with web pages they view. It is very narrow minded to think that way. I hardly think that PDF is a format to be so amazed with. With proper web design you can do amazing things with your information. You can control the way a site is presented over various medium- aural, screen, print. You can link automatically to different translations. If you really want you can create multiple stylesheets for multiple zoom levels and create 3 different versions of the web page(but that again is missing the point a little). You can present the information in one visual order while presenting it in a different machine order- this is great for designing with screen readers in mind- you can move long lists of links after the content but display them visually before the content for sighted browsers. Sometimes the information can't be there without pictures.For example,a website about paintings.The pictures ARE the information! Not true- a well built site about paintings would have a longdesc tag for each picture describing the painting, who painted it, points of interest, etc. Do you think that blind people don't paint? In addition, there is always the classic example of using colors like green and red to indicate good and bad or functional and nonfunctional. To a color blind person (8% of all males I believe) that has no meaning. A properly designed site needs to have text along with the color to describe the same information ie. write the word 'Good' in green and the word 'Bad' in red. yonah Best Regards,Uri Even-ChenSpeedy NetRaanana, Israel.E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Phone: +972-9-7715013Website: www.uri.co.il
HTML/CSS font sizes
Hi people, I'm looking for forums or mailing lists where I can discuss the standard HTML/CSS font sizes in browsers in general, and FireFox in particular. What bothers me is that I can't find a way to create a website that will display a specific font size, comparing to other graphic elements (that is, if the font size will grow, the graphic elements will grow too). I can do it with Internet Explorer, but not with FireFox. For example, look at [http://www.speedy.co.il/]. If you change the text size in FireFox (make it bigger), it doesn't look good. The same problem is also with Google ads (for example, look at [http://www.speedywhois.com/]). I think this is either a bug that should be fixed, or a bad standard that should be amended. Google ads should look good with all browsers, and so should websites. If people want to see text bigger, they would be able to do this by zooming in or out of a page. I think the webmaster should have the ability to force a specific text size, relevant to the graphics. It is possible to do it with Internet Explorer, but not with FireFox. I didn't check other browsers. Best Regards, Uri Even-Chen Speedy Net Raanana, Israel. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013 Website: www.uri.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HTML/CSS font sizes
In addition to my last E-mail, I found out some information on this page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/changedesign.html After reading it (below the table), I installed Opera and found out that it works exactly the way I wanted it to be - you can zoom in or out, but you can't change only the text size. So I think the problem is probably with specific browsers in general and with FireFox in particular. Is it possible to change it? I also found out that with Internet Explorer too, it is possible to ignore font sizes specified on web pages - causing similar problems. Both websites from my previous example, including Google ads, don't look well when this feature is enabled. But it's disabled by default. Uri. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013 Website: www.uri.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] HTML/CSS font sizes
Uri Even-Chen wrote: I'm looking for forums or mailing lists where I can discuss the standard HTML/CSS font sizes in browsers in general, and FireFox in particular. What bothers me is that I can't find a way to create a website that will display a specific font size, comparing to other graphic elements (that is, if the font size will grow, the graphic elements will grow too). I can do it with Internet Explorer, but not with FireFox. Believe it or not, but this is actually what some people like about the Mozilla / Firefox text zooming feature: it allows them to override whatever precise size the web author specified, cause believe it or not, it's usually the reader who knows best what he wants to see. This is in contrast to Internet Explorer's text zooming feature, has no effect on font sizes specified with precise values (i.e. font sizes in points, pixels etc. in CSS). I'm happy for Opera that they devised a way to zoom the entire site layout and not just the text; that's probably even nicer. In any case, some older and/or bad-sighted users rely on this ability to arbitrarily zoom text. Common sense of web design: If you're a web designer who is interested in keeping his work's ARTISTIC INTEGRITY in the face of all those erratic, unpredictable USERS conspiring to mess it up, then you'd be better off authoring Flash movies or PDFs, where you have the maximum amount of control and the users have the minimal amount of flexibility. P.S. The right spelling is Firefox (with a smaller second 'f') :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HTML/CSS font sizes
That is the exact opposite point of the Internet- no offense. You have no clue who is browsing your website. The person could be color blind, or totally blind, or deaf or dyslexic, or motorically challenged, or just Old. Everyone sees a web page differently. Are they using 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768? True, it's nice to make a nice looking website but your goal has to be the information in the website - not the way the website looks. The design should be a secondary factor. People that are interested in changing the size of the text on your website may be using screen magnifiers, or may be using personal style sheets to overide your styles. They may be hearing your webpage instead of reading it. They may have the pictures turned off. The basic questions you need to ask are: 1) is all the information there without the pictures.2) is all the information there without sound (if you have a narrarated flash intro- use subtitles) 3) is the information organized in a logical manner (using tables for design often breaks this) 3) lastly - does it look good in default installations of IE 5+, Mozilla 1.6+, Firefox, Opera, Safari good luck yonah On 3/25/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi people,I'm looking for forums or mailing lists where I can discuss the standardHTML/CSS font sizes in browsers in general, and FireFox in particular.What bothers me is that I can't find a way to create a website that will display a specific font size, comparing to other graphic elements (thatis, if the font size will grow, the graphic elements will grow too).Ican do it with Internet Explorer, but not with FireFox.For example, look at [http://www.speedy.co.il/].If you change the text size inFireFox (make it bigger), it doesn't look good.The same problem isalso with Google ads (for example, look at [http://www.speedywhois.com/]).I think this is either a bug thatshould be fixed, or a bad standard that should be amended.Google adsshould look good with all browsers, and so should websites.If people want to see text bigger, they would be able to do this by zooming in orout of a page.I think the webmaster should have the ability to force aspecific text size, relevant to the graphics.It is possible to do it with Internet Explorer, but not with FireFox.I didn't check otherbrowsers.Best Regards,Uri Even-ChenSpeedy NetRaanana, Israel.E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013Website: www.uri.co.il= To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] withthe word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the commandecho unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] HTML/CSS font sizes
Ilya Konstantinov wrote: Common sense of web design: If you're a web designer who is interested in keeping his work's ARTISTIC INTEGRITY in the face of all those erratic, unpredictable USERS conspiring to mess it up, then you'd be better off authoring Flash movies or PDFs, where you have the maximum amount of control and the users have the minimal amount of flexibility. I want to be able to create a graphic designed website which has the advantages of PDF, but also to be able to use HTML features such as links, forms, etc. I want all users to enjoy my website, but users who use Firefox and change the text size will not be able to enjoy my website - it looks ugly! The same it true for users who turn on the similar feature in Internet Explorer. On the other hand, users of Opera can zoom in the whole website without changing the proportion between text and graphics. I think this is the right and correct way. Best Regards, Uri Even-Chen Speedy Net Raanana, Israel. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +972-9-7715013 Website: www.uri.co.il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
