Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
An update for those interested. Today I received the log from I-Limudim that contains my email address. The rest of the contact information seems to belong to a person for whom I have received emails in the past addressed to. So it has been more than once that this person has mistakenly given my email address, and therefore I do not suspect any wrongdoing from I-Limudim. I am not persuing this any further, and in any case I made to them my point: Spam will not be tolerated. No sense in bothering the company further when I do not suspect that they intentionally broke Misrad Htikshoret laws. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
This is as much a note to myself for record keeping as to inform the list. Just now a woman named Ayelet from I-Limudim called, she was interested in knowing to which address the Israeli spam (email advertising a paid service, from a company that I had never subscribed to it's services or given my email address to voluntarily or consciously). I let her know to which address the spam was sent, and I requested that she send to me the date and IP address of the alleged subscription. Ayelet refused to send the information via email as she did not want to take the risk of me being in her Outlook and getting future unwanted mails. I suppose that is understandable considering the circumstances, so I will wait 1-2 days for her reply. I must also note that she asked why I did not unsubscribe from previous mailings from the company. I stated that I did not unsubscribe from previous mailings because I had no interest in ever establishing communications with the company. As the previous mailings were not illegal in nature (did not advertise paid services) I simply deleted them along with the thousands of other spam mail that I receive. Ayalet also offered me alternative compensation in the form of two tickets to some event. I stressed that my intention is not compensation, therefore the tickets do not interest me. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Dotan Cohen wrote: I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? Naturally, half of it will be donated to hamakor. There is no-one to complain to. Contact the spammer and offer them to pay you directly. If they refuse, sue them in small claims. ISOC has court paper templates you can use. http://isoc.org.il/spam/ There is, however, no one to do the work for you, I'm afraid. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
2009/5/7 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Dotan Cohen wrote: I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? Naturally, half of it will be donated to hamakor. There is no-one to complain to. Contact the spammer and offer them to pay you directly. If they refuse, sue them in small claims. ISOC has court paper templates you can use. http://isoc.org.il/spam/ There is, however, no one to do the work for you, I'm afraid. Shachar I was not expecting a one-stop solution. I see that small claims court is the answer that I was looking for. Is there a link to the actual spam law itself? Something that I could quote when contacting the spammer? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Sounds like good stuff for ongoing report in blog posts... I wonder if they even answer you without the court order. I just called the company (got three different numbers to call, nobody wants to handle this) and left a message that I recorded, offering to accept the 1000 NIS without going to court. I will call every day, and leave a message that I record, for a week. Then I will start the suing process. 50 agorot on every shekel that I receive goes to Hamakor. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Udi Oron wrote: Sounds like good stuff for ongoing report in blog posts... I wonder if they even answer you without the court order. You do not call for them to answer. You call so you can show the court that you did everything you could to collect the money without going to court, so you can ask the court for הוצאות משפט. Since you know that the chances they will even talk to you out of court is negligible, you want to hit them as hard as you can. If you can add 1000 sheqels of costs to the 1000 sheqels of damages, there is a greater chance of receiving those if you showed you did everything you could to not spend the time and money of going to court in the first place. Your final court approach should be something like: 1000 sheqels - statutory damages for sending spam 70 sheqels - claims fee (the money you pay to post the claim - I'm not sure how much it is) X sheqels - trial cost (how many hours you spent on the suite with a REASONABLE padding times an hourly income you can reasonably be said to be worth) In X, count the time you spent calling them, the time you spent researching the matter and the time you are estimated to spend in court. Add a reasonable padding. Don't make this particular article too big, or you risk your entire case. And, in case there is any doubt, I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Anyone taking any legal action based solely on advice given in a public forum is barking mad. Do your own research, consult a lawyer, whatever. Udi http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/forms/ktanot.htm http://www.moit.gov.il/NR/exeres/1A0A7AB5-68D4-4739-801D-44390FEE7A39.htm -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
On Thursday, 7 בMay 2009 08:32, Dotan Cohen wrote: I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? Naturally, half of it will be donated to hamakor. I usually use the information on this page as a guide: http://www.isoc.org.il/spam/ -- Ariel -- Ariel Biener e-mail: ar...@post.tau.ac.il PGP: http://www.tau.ac.il/~ariel/pgp.html ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Hi! Dotan Cohen wrote: 2009/5/7 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Dotan Cohen wrote: I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? There is no-one to complain to. Contact the spammer and offer them to pay you directly. If they refuse, sue them in small claims. ISOC has court paper templates you can use.I was not expecting a one-stop solution. I see that small claims court is the answer that I was looking for. Sounds like good stuff for ongoing report in blog posts... I wonder if they even answer you without the court order. Udi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 12:29:02PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2009/5/7 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Dotan Cohen wrote: I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? Naturally, half of it will be donated to hamakor. There is no-one to complain to. Contact the spammer and offer them to pay you directly. If they refuse, sue them in small claims. ISOC has court paper templates you can use. http://isoc.org.il/spam/ There is, however, no one to do the work for you, I'm afraid. Shachar I was not expecting a one-stop solution. I see that small claims court is the answer that I was looking for. Is there a link to the actual spam law itself? Something that I could quote when contacting the spammer? ISOC-IL's site, mentioned above, has a link to it, as well as other useful material. -- Didi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
2009/5/7 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Udi Oron wrote: Sounds like good stuff for ongoing report in blog posts... I wonder if they even answer you without the court order. You do not call for them to answer. You call so you can show the court that you did everything you could to collect the money without going to court, so you can ask the court for הוצאות משפט. Since you know that the chances they will even talk to you out of court is negligible, you want to hit them as hard as you can. If you can add 1000 sheqels of costs to the 1000 sheqels of damages, there is a greater chance of receiving those if you showed you did everything you could to not spend the time and money of going to court in the first place. Your final court approach should be something like: 1000 sheqels - statutory damages for sending spam 70 sheqels - claims fee (the money you pay to post the claim - I'm not sure how much it is) X sheqels - trial cost (how many hours you spent on the suite with a REASONABLE padding times an hourly income you can reasonably be said to be worth) In X, count the time you spent calling them, the time you spent researching the matter and the time you are estimated to spend in court. Add a reasonable padding. Don't make this particular article too big, or you risk your entire case. And, in case there is any doubt, I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Anyone taking any legal action based solely on advice given in a public forum is barking mad. Do your own research, consult a lawyer, whatever. Udi http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/forms/ktanot.htm http://www.moit.gov.il/NR/exeres/1A0A7AB5-68D4-4739-801D-44390FEE7A39.htm A representative of the company called me back, she is very concerned about the incident. It was a third-party advertising agency that sent the spam and the rep sounds _angry_. As my goal is to fight spam in Israel, and not to make a quick shekel, I am more than happy to help her check internally what had happened. It looks like the third party advertising agency is to blame, and the company rep want to give it to them hard. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Dotan Cohen wrote: A representative of the company called me back, she is very concerned about the incident. It was a third-party advertising agency that sent the spam and the rep sounds _angry_. As my goal is to fight spam in Israel, and not to make a quick shekel, I am more than happy to help her check internally what had happened. It looks like the third party advertising agency is to blame, and the company rep want to give it to them hard. That is fine. Still, you know rule no. 1: spammers lie. As far as formal procedure goes, you cannot abide by what she tells you. Even if what she tells you is the truth as it is, you cannot sue the spamming agency, as you are not a party to their internal procedures. As far as I can see, what you can do is one of three things: 1. Drop the whole case, under the assumption that merely by getting the client angry at their advertising agency you have done enough to curb further spam. 2. Ask them to pay you in exchange for all of your collected evidence (mainly the actual email) and your willingness to be a witness in case they choose to sue the advertising agency (and they are more likely to win if they have already paid you, as this is actual out of pocket damage to them, not a theoretical statutory damage). 3. Either sue both them and the advertising agency, or just them and recommend to them that they add the advertising agency as a third party to the suite. If small claims allows a defendant to add third parties, this may actually be cheaper for them than option 2. A business is not allowed to sue in small claims, but if you, as an individual, sue in small claims, the business may be able to add a third party. The advantage of options 2 and 3 is that it does not require of you to decide whether the company representative is telling you the truth or not (rule no. 1 again). Again, not a lawyer. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Dotan, well done. I suggest you to write a draft of the law suit and ask the help of emun hatzibur. They have lawyers and will help you to write it better. They won't go to the court with you, but they can give you the legal parts of the law, help you further http://www.emun.org/ On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Yedidyah Bar-David linux...@didi.bardavid.org wrote: On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 12:29:02PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2009/5/7 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Dotan Cohen wrote: I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? Naturally, half of it will be donated to hamakor. There is no-one to complain to. Contact the spammer and offer them to pay you directly. If they refuse, sue them in small claims. ISOC has court paper templates you can use. http://isoc.org.il/spam/ There is, however, no one to do the work for you, I'm afraid. Shachar I was not expecting a one-stop solution. I see that small claims court is the answer that I was looking for. Is there a link to the actual spam law itself? Something that I could quote when contacting the spammer? ISOC-IL's site, mentioned above, has a link to it, as well as other useful material. -- Didi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
sara fink wrote: Dotan, well done. I suggest you to write a draft of the law suit and ask the help of emun hatzibur. They have lawyers and will help you to write it better. They won't go to the court with you, but they can give you the legal parts of the law, help you further http://www.emun.org/ Just a note about lawyers and the spam law: The amounts awarded as part of the spam law are too small for a lawyer to be able to take on the case and make a profit. Even when working with non-profit lawyers (such as, I am guessing, Emun Hazibur), the amounts are still only really relevant for small claims court, and you are not allowed to be represented by a lawyer there. Do contact them, as they may help with preparing the suite and with counseling, but they will not represent you in small claims court (or, likely, any other court). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
I also mentioned that they won't represent at court. But they do help with counceling, formulating, pointing to the right part in the law. I got some very good advices from them in other matter. On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: sara fink wrote: Dotan, well done. I suggest you to write a draft of the law suit and ask the help of emun hatzibur. They have lawyers and will help you to write it better. They won't go to the court with you, but they can give you the legal parts of the law, help you further http://www.emun.org/ Just a note about lawyers and the spam law: The amounts awarded as part of the spam law are too small for a lawyer to be able to take on the case and make a profit. Even when working with non-profit lawyers (such as, I am guessing, Emun Hazibur), the amounts are still only really relevant for small claims court, and you are not allowed to be represented by a lawyer there. Do contact them, as they may help with preparing the suite and with counseling, but they will not represent you in small claims court (or, likely, any other court). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
Dotan, well done. I suggest you to write a draft of the law suit and ask the help of emun hatzibur. They have lawyers and will help you to write it better. They won't go to the court with you, but they can give you the legal parts of the law, help you further http://www.emun.org/ Thank you! I did not know about emun but I will definitely need their services for another, unrelated matter. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Israeli spam! Who do I contact?
I just got a nice bit of spam, for a paid service, in Hebrew, to an obviously-harvested address! That sounds like a cool 1000 NIS to me. Does anyone know to whom to complain to collect? Naturally, half of it will be donated to hamakor. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
