Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) a GUI still can't do scripts. Whenever scripts are necessary I have cvs as-is. But when I do a commit of new source code and want an easy way to see the difference from the current CVS conveniently nothing (that I am aware) comes close to Eclipse' synchronize with repository. 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) For mail you can use imap. Calendaring is more complicated. Keep in mind that evolution currently has a problem displaying Hebrew. Yes. At first your statement made me worried but then I realized that I actually never use Hebrew at work. 4. Share disks with other UN*X and windows (NFS, Samba and remote CIFS mounts of course) 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) NIS? winbind? Winbind, I suppose. Our sys admin is not quite cooperative on this front, so there are limitations on what exactly can be done. We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. Why? RH8 is already past its end-of-life. RH9 is nearing it. Can anybody here attest to the quality of Fedora Legacy http://www.fedoralegacy.org/? Alternatively you may decide to do your own fixes, or to pay Progeny. Keep in mind the inherent binary incompatibility between RH8 and RH9 (NPTL). Well, I'm not in direct contact with clients (our first Alpha will be on AIX, of all things). I suppose that's what our sales peope heard from clients. Keep in mind that with RH9 you'll have problems demonstrating bleeding-edge tools. I'm aware of that, that's what triggered the question - FC seems BLeeding edge (vs. leading edge), and RH 9 is missing many recent improvements. But why do you feel confined to use RH? Why not use your Debian, if you're so familiar with it? It should have a benefit for stability (all the packages come from one source). As for usability: I leave that to you. Again - nobody here except me knows Debian. We already have to deal with RH and using Debian won't take the RH familiarity requirement away, it will just add another environment for people to learn. Thanks for your comments, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
On Monday 05 April 2004 08:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tzafrir Cohen wrote: 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) a GUI still can't do scripts. Whenever scripts are necessary I have cvs as-is. But when I do a commit of new source code and want an easy way to see the difference from the current CVS conveniently nothing (that I am aware) comes close to Eclipse' synchronize with repository. KDE's cervisia does a nice job of handling CVS, including graphical diffs, invoking editors while calling edit/unedit, log view (including graphical trees) and all sorts of stuff. it can be used as a standalone client or if you use Konqueror as your file manager it integrates nicely with it (you just browse to your working directory and click CVS view. next time you browser to that directory cervisia will automaticly take over). If you're use Eclipse as an IDE and want to have all the CVS operations from with in the environment then by all means use Eclipse, you'll find no better tool (I use it that way myself), but if you just want to do some CVS operations then I hardly think firing up the memory eating monster that is Eclipse to be a very good idea. 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) KDE has some integration with Exchange (Kmail using IMAP), including calender retreival and storage (Kalendar), address book lookups through LDAP (Kaddressbook) and some simple integration with Kontact and KMail's new groupware functionality. you'd need KDE 3.2 for that and that would mean getting FC. 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) NIS? winbind? Winbind, I suppose. I use Winbind from Samba 3 and its very easy to get it to authenticate against a Win2K PDC. I also suggest pam_mount which automatically mounts remote file systems on login using the login password - we have a file server with some often used shares and I find it very useful to have it automatically mounted. Again - nobody here except me knows Debian. We already have to deal with RH and using Debian won't take the RH familiarity requirement away, it will just add another environment for people to learn. I would like to suggest Mandrake which has a somewhat RedHatish feel but is better in some areas that I found important (integeration with an almost all windows office environment is one thing - for example, you can tell it during installation that you want to authenticate logins against a windows domain and it will just work). -- Oded ::.. If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot of different places, just write a Unix operating system -- Linus Torvalds = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, guy keren wrote: We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. from stability point of view, you should install RH 9.0 - but it's a dead goat because of redhat's recent moves. i got my PC installed with fedora (fedora core I - with the patches that were available from redhat at the time). i use it for java development (althought i don't use an IDE yet...) and it works mostly stable. it's overloaded since i run on it something that was planned to be run on 3-4 different machines, but it did not crash on me yet. it's open-office seems to be the version that doesn't support hebrew (althought i think it should - i think it's version 1.1.0 or soemthing similar - perhaps this is just a fonts problem?), but it shows the english documents written inside the company quite ok (until there are drawings in the documents - that's where it 'squashes' the drawing onto the text). i use mozilla for surfing, since i was too lazy to get a different browser there. since the machine has a pentium 4 with hyper-threading, i installed an SMP kernel and it now runs with '2 CPUs' - does windows XP does this out ofthe box, by the way? (i don't know since i didn't check). i was somewhat skeptic about finding RPMs for redora, or running commercial applications - but at least some things seem to work (such as vmware). i didn't yet manage to get the Java IDE (Idea's IntelliJ) running on it - thought i didn't try realy hard. i don't use any C++ IDE either - by my room-mate, which also runs fedora on his desktop, runs both IntelliJ (Java) and anjuta (C/C++) on his fedora with no noticeable problems. I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. why do you want to do that? people should stick with what gives them their pleasure - unless this is an everyone must have the same platform kind of office. as for the issue of developing on windows and deploying on Unix - i've seen that somewhere, and that was part of what kept me away from that place... -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. -- Ariel Biener e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP(6.5.8) public key http://www.tau.ac.il/~ariel/pgp.html +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004, guy keren wrote: Hi, Sorry for the missfire earlier (pine ...). since the machine has a pentium 4 with hyper-threading, i installed an SMP kernel and it now runs with '2 CPUs' - does windows XP does this out ofthe box, by the way? (i don't know since i didn't check). Yes, it does. --Ariel -- Ariel Biener e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP(6.5.8) public key http://www.tau.ac.il/~ariel/pgp.html +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
guy keren wrote: (i'm responding only because i didn't see the more qualified people respond to this yet) Thanks. Anyone's experience counts. from stability point of view, you should install RH 9.0 - but it's a dead goat because of redhat's recent moves. Yes, I learned this by now. But right now the feeling I get is the FC is not stable enough, and that an installation of RH 9 should be upgradable to FC once FC is more stable. i got my PC installed with fedora (fedora core I - with the patches that were available from redhat at the time). i use it for java development (althought i don't use an IDE yet...) and it works mostly stable. it's overloaded since i run on it something that was planned to be run on 3-4 different machines, but it did not crash on me yet. Good to hear that. I'm more interested in being able to count on the dist that whatever I install/remove on it, it will still play and I won't find myself learning to handle RPM hell (being a spoiled Debian user I almost never had to deal with this :)). it's open-office seems to be the version that doesn't support hebrew (althought i think it should - i think it's version 1.1.0 or soemthing similar - perhaps this is just a fonts problem?), but it shows the english documents written inside the company quite ok (until there are drawings in the documents - that's where it 'squashes' the drawing onto the text). i use mozilla for surfing, since i was too lazy to get a different browser there. How practical would it be to install the OpenOffice binaries from OpenOffice.org(.il)? since the machine has a pentium 4 with hyper-threading, i installed an SMP kernel and it now runs with '2 CPUs' - does windows XP does this out of the box, by the way? (i don't know since i didn't check). i was somewhat skeptic about finding RPMs for redora, or running commercial applications - but at least some things seem to work (such as vmware). i didn't yet manage to get the Java IDE (Idea's IntelliJ) running on it - thought i didn't try realy hard. I thought that FC was basically more or less what RH 9 was when FC came out, so anything which runs on RH 9 should behave the same on FC. Is this correct? i don't use any C++ IDE either - by my room-mate, which also runs fedora on his desktop, runs both IntelliJ (Java) and anjuta (C/C++) on his fedora with no noticeable problems. Good, thanks. Anjuta is what I plan to install too. I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. why do you want to do that? people should stick with what gives them their pleasure - unless this is an everyone must have the same platform kind of office. Programmers here are payed to develop, not to administrate their systems. The single system admin we have won't be able to support just anything that a programmer wants to install on his system, and setting a common standard in a workplace are still a good thing. As for moving people over to Linux - I expect our workplace would eventually save a few thousands of dollars on MS licenses from doing this. as for the issue of developing on windows and deploying on Unix - i've seen that somewhere, and that was part of what kept me away from that place... The managers considered using Linux as a desktop for programmers almost a year ago when we just startted working there but decided that it's too much hussle at the time to inter-operate with the Windows which had to be used by secretaries of another body to which we are connected. Now that we have a dedicated sysadmin and our networks are pretty much separated the situation might be more ripe for an all-Linux network. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I got a chance to install Linux on my office desktop (next to Windows XP, for now). Do you have VMware? This can be very handy to display several Linux environments side by side. I'd like to install something which will impress them the most with stability and usability, and mostly as a developer station. I expect to need it for: 1. Develop in Java (we already have an Eclipse-based full environment) Which is also available in Linux 2. Develop in C++ (right now development is done on VC++ and only builds are done on Linux/Solaris/AIX) 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) Ditto 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) Exchange 2003 also has a Web interface which is nice, and works well even in non-ie environment. 4. Share disks with other UN*X and windows (NFS, Samba and remote CIFS mounts of course) A little more information is required here. Are you looking for a Network Neighborhood style environment or a more unix style mount points? 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) Linux LDAP clients can connect to AD. Mandrake, for one, can also use AD for user management out of the box. Our sys admin is not quite cooperative on this front, so there are limitations on what exactly can be done. Can you say more about his/her concerns? We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. I would not put too much emphasis in this point. The clients would most likely be using Linux on their production servers, whereas you are looking for a desktop environment. But I though that maybe I can use Fedora Core for development station - can anyone compare it vs. RH? Can I try the just released FC2 or should I still stay awat? Is this a cost issue? Can you get someone in your management to fork out money for SuSE or Sun's desktop? If you are limited to the free (as in beer) linux, Mandrake or Fedora seems the first options. If look and feel is the issue, then any distro will do. I'd like the environment to demo the best features Linux desktop has to offer today, but I suppose I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. Evangelisms! Amen to that, brother, do I hear you say hallelujah?! Praise the penguin! Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
Gil Freund wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I got a chance to install Linux on my office desktop (next to Windows XP, for now). Do you have VMware? This can be very handy to display several Linux environments side by side. No we don't have VMware. What do I need several linux environments for? Anyway - shouldn't I be able to load several sub-linux under User-mode Linux? I'd like to install something which will impress them the most with stability and usability, and mostly as a developer station. I expect to need it for: 1. Develop in Java (we already have an Eclipse-based full environment) Which is also available in Linux I know. 2. Develop in C++ (right now development is done on VC++ and only builds are done on Linux/Solaris/AIX) 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) Ditto 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) Exchange 2003 also has a Web interface which is nice, and works well even in non-ie environment. Ah ok. Forgot about that. 4. Share disks with other UN*X and windows (NFS, Samba and remote CIFS mounts of course) A little more information is required here. Are you looking for a Network Neighborhood style environment or a more unix style mount points? Both. We use Samba to inter-connect windows with UNIX but also NFS to share unix home directories. 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) Linux LDAP clients can connect to AD. Mandrake, for one, can also use AD for user management out of the box. Our sys admin is not quite cooperative on this front, so there are limitations on what exactly can be done. Can you say more about his/her concerns? In private. But generally the bottom line is that I am not completly free to do just anything on the net. We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. I would not put too much emphasis in this point. The clients would most likely be using Linux on their production servers, whereas you are looking for a desktop environment. Yes, but people already have to deal with these environments on a daily basis, so anything else I introduce will have to come in addition to them, not replace them. But I though that maybe I can use Fedora Core for development station - can anyone compare it vs. RH? Can I try the just released FC2 or should I still stay awat? Is this a cost issue? Can you get someone in your management to fork out money for SuSE or Sun's desktop? If you are limited to the free (as in beer) linux, Mandrake or Fedora seems the first options. I think there is a cost issue here as well. Management is very cost concience (that's a main reason they looked at Linux for the desktop in the first place). If look and feel is the issue, then any distro will do. Again - we have to deal with RH8/9 anyway. Other distros will just add more noise to handle. I'd like the environment to demo the best features Linux desktop has to offer today, but I suppose I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. Evangelisms! Amen to that, brother, do I hear you say hallelujah?! Praise the penguin! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:33:15AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I got a chance to install Linux on my office desktop (next to Windows XP, for now). I'd like to install something which will impress them the most with stability and usability, and mostly as a developer station. I expect to need it for: 1. Develop in Java (we already have an Eclipse-based full environment) 2. Develop in C++ (right now development is done on VC++ and only builds are done on Linux/Solaris/AIX) 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) a GUI still can't do scripts. 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) For mail you can use imap. Calendaring is more complicated. Keep in mind that evolution currently has a problem displaying Hebrew. 4. Share disks with other UN*X and windows (NFS, Samba and remote CIFS mounts of course) 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) NIS? winbind? Our sys admin is not quite cooperative on this front, so there are limitations on what exactly can be done. We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. Why? RH8 is already past its end-of-life. RH9 is nearing it. Can anybody here attest to the quality of Fedora Legacy http://www.fedoralegacy.org/? Alternatively you may decide to do your own fixes, or to pay Progeny. Keep in mind the inherent binary incompatibility between RH8 and RH9 (NPTL). But I though that maybe I can use Fedora Core for development station - can anyone compare it vs. RH? Can I try the just released FC2 or should I still stay awat? I'd like the environment to demo the best features Linux desktop has to offer today, but I suppose I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. Keep in mind that with RH9 you'll have problems demonstrating bleeding-edge tools. But why do you feel confined to use RH? Why not use your Debian, if you're so familiar with it? It should have a benefit for stability (all the packages come from one source). As for usability: I leave that to you. -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] No we don't have VMware. What do I need several linux environments for? Anyway - shouldn't I be able to load several sub-linux under User-mode Linux? It's just that VMware images are very portable and allow for rollbacks. It's just a convenience. [snip] Exchange 2003 also has a Web interface which is nice, and works well even in non-ie environment. Ah ok. Forgot about that. As a side note, are Pocket PC's and Palms an issue? [snip] Can you say more about his/her concerns? In private. But generally the bottom line is that I am not completly free to do just anything on the net. Well, no sys admin in his/her right mind would let a developer loose in his/her network My question is more to the effect, can way be found to do this *with* the sys admin, rather then *against* him/her? [snip] Yes, but people already have to deal with these environments on a daily basis, so anything else I introduce will have to come in addition to them, not replace them. Well, you already have separate coding and build environments. Even using Debian / Slackware / Gentoo would be closer to the build environment then Windows, or am I missing something? [snip] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
From: guy keren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop? Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:02:31 +0200 (IST) (i'm responding only because i didn't see the more qualified people respond to this yet) snip since the machine has a pentium 4 with hyper-threading, i installed an SMP kernel and it now runs with '2 CPUs' - does windows XP does this out of the box, by the way? (i don't know since i didn't check). Yes i don't use any C++ IDE either - by my room-mate, which also runs fedora on his desktop, runs both IntelliJ (Java) and anjuta (C/C++) on his fedora with no noticeable problems. Ohhh, right, please tell Etay I said hi. Yosi _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
(i'm responding only because i didn't see the more qualified people respond to this yet) On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got a chance to install Linux on my office desktop (next to Windows XP, for now). I'd like to install something which will impress them the most with stability and usability, and mostly as a developer station. I expect to need it for: 1. Develop in Java (we already have an Eclipse-based full environment) 2. Develop in C++ (right now development is done on VC++ and only builds are done on Linux/Solaris/AIX) 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) 4. Share disks with other UN*X and windows (NFS, Samba and remote CIFS mounts of course) 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) Our sys admin is not quite cooperative on this front, so there are limitations on what exactly can be done. We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. from stability point of view, you should install RH 9.0 - but it's a dead goat because of redhat's recent moves. i got my PC installed with fedora (fedora core I - with the patches that were available from redhat at the time). i use it for java development (althought i don't use an IDE yet...) and it works mostly stable. it's overloaded since i run on it something that was planned to be run on 3-4 different machines, but it did not crash on me yet. it's open-office seems to be the version that doesn't support hebrew (althought i think it should - i think it's version 1.1.0 or soemthing similar - perhaps this is just a fonts problem?), but it shows the english documents written inside the company quite ok (until there are drawings in the documents - that's where it 'squashes' the drawing onto the text). i use mozilla for surfing, since i was too lazy to get a different browser there. since the machine has a pentium 4 with hyper-threading, i installed an SMP kernel and it now runs with '2 CPUs' - does windows XP does this out of the box, by the way? (i don't know since i didn't check). i was somewhat skeptic about finding RPMs for redora, or running commercial applications - but at least some things seem to work (such as vmware). i didn't yet manage to get the Java IDE (Idea's IntelliJ) running on it - thought i didn't try realy hard. i don't use any C++ IDE either - by my room-mate, which also runs fedora on his desktop, runs both IntelliJ (Java) and anjuta (C/C++) on his fedora with no noticeable problems. I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. why do you want to do that? people should stick with what gives them their pleasure - unless this is an everyone must have the same platform kind of office. as for the issue of developing on windows and deploying on Unix - i've seen that somewhere, and that was part of what kept me away from that place... -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Which RH or FC to install for company developer desktop?
Hi, I got a chance to install Linux on my office desktop (next to Windows XP, for now). I'd like to install something which will impress them the most with stability and usability, and mostly as a developer station. I expect to need it for: 1. Develop in Java (we already have an Eclipse-based full environment) 2. Develop in C++ (right now development is done on VC++ and only builds are done on Linux/Solaris/AIX) 3. Access CVS (through the Eclipse CVS plugin is the best GUI for this, so it might not be necessary to have a separate tool) 3. Access Exchange 2003 server (I already asked Ximian for a price offer for their connector to use with Evolution) 4. Share disks with other UN*X and windows (NFS, Samba and remote CIFS mounts of course) 5. Maybe share user database (LDAP?) Our sys admin is not quite cooperative on this front, so there are limitations on what exactly can be done. We already have CD's of RH 8 and RH9 at the office. We expect to see both of them at customer sites. But I though that maybe I can use Fedora Core for development station - can anyone compare it vs. RH? Can I try the just released FC2 or should I still stay awat? I'd like the environment to demo the best features Linux desktop has to offer today, but I suppose I should also be careful not to setup something too shaky if I want to convicne them to switch the entire office to Linux desktops. Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
