Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:44:50PM +, Daniel Phillips wrote: > Hi Willy, > > I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done. So because people speak loudly at night below my window in summer, I have to close the window and install a fan to get some air ? And all the neighbours have to do the same ? Sorry, there are places for this I'd rather politely ask them to go to these places. And anyway it's much easier for me to write rules to block addresses than subjects, so if I am bored enough to write a rule it will target the participants. Keep your discussion on LKML if you want it to be public, it's even on the subject and nobody will care because nobody has it in his main mailbox anymore. But please remove the other people that were left CCed and who don't participate to the thread, as well as the ksummit and stable lists that are for completely different purposes. Thanks, Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
Hi Willy, I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done. I am not tired of the subject, quite the contrary. Please do not speak for me in that regard. After many years of wandering in the toxic wasteland, finally some actual progress. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:51:21PM +, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote: > > Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? > > Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I > somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re "open > and honest" as "endless and boring". > > I agree that the attempt to divert the intent of my comment into a > farcical debate on debating was not worth the internet bytes it was > printed on. In fact, that nicely demonstrates one class of technique > commonly used on lkml to silence criticism, and is worth studying from > that viewpoint. That sort of diverting should end, particularly in > regards to the topic at hand. Daniel, the thread has long diverted and has become a philosophical debate. I'm still in CC since almost the beginning because I dared to respond to the *original* discussion (on the subject of how to better tag commits for stable), conscious of the risk I was taking. I've long stopped reading this and am still getting these e-mails which remind me some old tv shows I could occasionally discover when I was a kid, with old daddies with long hair discussing whether writing with a hand in the pocket is better for health than brushing your hair with a plastic brush or not... So I have no problem stating it here : no, this thread doesn't interest me anymore. Only the few first exchanges did (those on the workflow of commits). I could humbly ask to be removed from the CC list, but since -stable is CCed as well I'll still receive these discussions in my mailbox. And given that I'm not the only one to find this one boring, I believe it is not a selfish request from me to kindly ask this thing to stop. After all, 2 or 3 persons sending off-topic e-mails to 10, 20, or even 50k subscribers on a development list might look inadequate to some readers. Thus, I think it would be *polite* from people who entertain this thread while smoking I-don't-know-what, to agree that there will always be some areas where they disagree, that they shake their respective hands and silently quit the scene so that we can turn off the lights and all go to bed. Thanks for your understanding, Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote: > Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re "open and honest" as "endless and boring". I agree that the attempt to divert the intent of my comment into a farcical debate on debating was not worth the internet bytes it was printed on. In fact, that nicely demonstrates one class of technique commonly used on lkml to silence criticism, and is worth studying from that viewpoint. That sort of diverting should end, particularly in regards to the topic at hand. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 16:33 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote: > Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Just do what I did and kill it with a /dev/null filter. But wait! How did I see this email? Oh shit! It's come back from the dead -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 09:00:37AM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed > without evidence. Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Thank you. Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be >> both A (open and honest), and B (polite)... > > You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and > honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I hope that > you will come to agree with me in the not too distant future. What I come to agree is irrelevant. What you _hope_ is not important. What you _believe_ doesn't really matter. You've stated what you *think*, that barely has any value in the discussion, but all right, you've done so already... duly noted. Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Daniel Phillips d.phill...@partner.samsung.com wrote: On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be both A (open and honest), and B (polite)... You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I hope that you will come to agree with me in the not too distant future. What I come to agree is irrelevant. What you _hope_ is not important. What you _believe_ doesn't really matter. You've stated what you *think*, that barely has any value in the discussion, but all right, you've done so already... duly noted. Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 09:00:37AM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Thank you. Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 16:33 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote: Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Just do what I did and kill it with a /dev/null filter. But wait! How did I see this email? Oh shit! It's come back from the dead -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote: Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re open and honest as endless and boring. I agree that the attempt to divert the intent of my comment into a farcical debate on debating was not worth the internet bytes it was printed on. In fact, that nicely demonstrates one class of technique commonly used on lkml to silence criticism, and is worth studying from that viewpoint. That sort of diverting should end, particularly in regards to the topic at hand. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:51:21PM +, Daniel Phillips wrote: On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote: Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ? Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re open and honest as endless and boring. I agree that the attempt to divert the intent of my comment into a farcical debate on debating was not worth the internet bytes it was printed on. In fact, that nicely demonstrates one class of technique commonly used on lkml to silence criticism, and is worth studying from that viewpoint. That sort of diverting should end, particularly in regards to the topic at hand. Daniel, the thread has long diverted and has become a philosophical debate. I'm still in CC since almost the beginning because I dared to respond to the *original* discussion (on the subject of how to better tag commits for stable), conscious of the risk I was taking. I've long stopped reading this and am still getting these e-mails which remind me some old tv shows I could occasionally discover when I was a kid, with old daddies with long hair discussing whether writing with a hand in the pocket is better for health than brushing your hair with a plastic brush or not... So I have no problem stating it here : no, this thread doesn't interest me anymore. Only the few first exchanges did (those on the workflow of commits). I could humbly ask to be removed from the CC list, but since -stable is CCed as well I'll still receive these discussions in my mailbox. And given that I'm not the only one to find this one boring, I believe it is not a selfish request from me to kindly ask this thing to stop. After all, 2 or 3 persons sending off-topic e-mails to 10, 20, or even 50k subscribers on a development list might look inadequate to some readers. Thus, I think it would be *polite* from people who entertain this thread while smoking I-don't-know-what, to agree that there will always be some areas where they disagree, that they shake their respective hands and silently quit the scene so that we can turn off the lights and all go to bed. Thanks for your understanding, Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
Hi Willy, I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done. I am not tired of the subject, quite the contrary. Please do not speak for me in that regard. After many years of wandering in the toxic wasteland, finally some actual progress. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:44:50PM +, Daniel Phillips wrote: Hi Willy, I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done. So because people speak loudly at night below my window in summer, I have to close the window and install a fan to get some air ? And all the neighbours have to do the same ? Sorry, there are places for this I'd rather politely ask them to go to these places. And anyway it's much easier for me to write rules to block addresses than subjects, so if I am bored enough to write a rule it will target the participants. Keep your discussion on LKML if you want it to be public, it's even on the subject and nobody will care because nobody has it in his main mailbox anymore. But please remove the other people that were left CCed and who don't participate to the thread, as well as the ksummit and stable lists that are for completely different purposes. Thanks, Willy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 09:23 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: > > > > > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek > > > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite > > > positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of > > > Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek > > > compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument > > > to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today > > > for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. > > > > What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between > > evolution and creationism? > > Well, you jest, but actually Intelligent Design is usually presented as > a false compromise between the "extremes" of evolution and creationism. > If you listen to it's proponents, the rhetorical device they use to > argue for legitimacy is precisely an argument to moderation. Exactly, which is why I used that as an example. And also, just to kick the hornet's nest. -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: > > > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek > > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite > > positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of > > Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek > > compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument > > to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today > > for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. > > What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between > evolution and creationism? Well, you jest, but actually Intelligent Design is usually presented as a false compromise between the "extremes" of evolution and creationism. If you listen to it's proponents, the rhetorical device they use to argue for legitimacy is precisely an argument to moderation. James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be > both A (open and honest), and B (polite)... You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I hope that you will come to agree with me in the not too distant future. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be both A (open and honest), and B (polite)... You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I hope that you will come to agree with me in the not too distant future. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between evolution and creationism? Well, you jest, but actually Intelligent Design is usually presented as a false compromise between the extremes of evolution and creationism. If you listen to it's proponents, the rhetorical device they use to argue for legitimacy is precisely an argument to moderation. James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 09:23 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between evolution and creationism? Well, you jest, but actually Intelligent Design is usually presented as a false compromise between the extremes of evolution and creationism. If you listen to it's proponents, the rhetorical device they use to argue for legitimacy is precisely an argument to moderation. Exactly, which is why I used that as an example. And also, just to kick the hornet's nest. -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:48 -0400, Paul Gortmaker wrote: > C'mon folks. This is beyond silly. Let us look at the things that we > can really change, or at least influence change within. Things that > really matter to linux today and tomorrow. Ah, so there is middle ground between creationism and evolution! -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:26 PM, James Bottomley wrote: > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips >> wrote: >> > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental >> >> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your >> >> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. >> > >> > Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without >> > being offensive or abusive. >> >> You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means. >> I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and >> that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be >> the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be >> a straw man fallacy. >> >> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be >> both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a >> name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that >> claim. > > It's not actually one of the original logical fallacies, but it's called > argument to moderation or false compromise: The fallacy is the > assumption that the original statements represent extremal positions of > a continuum so there must always be middle ground which represents the > correct statement. To those accepting the fallacy making the middle > ground statement by that fact alone demonstrates the invalidity of the > previous proposition. And when so many of us had convinced ourselves that this thread could not possibly descend any further into the off-topic weeds... Good job. That assumption has now been shattered by bringing in ancient Greece. Given that, I'd like to propose a KS topic that covers Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill, Leviathan by Hobbes, and The Politics by Aristotle. C'mon folks. This is beyond silly. Let us look at the things that we can really change, or at least influence change within. Things that really matter to linux today and tomorrow. P. --- > > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite > positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of > Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek > compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument > to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today > for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. > > James > > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite > positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of > Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek > compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument > to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today > for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between evolution and creationism? -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: > On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips > wrote: > > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental > >> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your > >> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. > > > > Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without > > being offensive or abusive. > > You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means. > I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and > that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be > the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be > a straw man fallacy. > > Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be > both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a > name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that > claim. It's not actually one of the original logical fallacies, but it's called argument to moderation or false compromise: The fallacy is the assumption that the original statements represent extremal positions of a continuum so there must always be middle ground which represents the correct statement. To those accepting the fallacy making the middle ground statement by that fact alone demonstrates the invalidity of the previous proposition. I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental >> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your >> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. > > Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without > being offensive or abusive. You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means. I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be a straw man fallacy. Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that claim. And even supposing that such an obvious fallacy (that one can *always* be both open and honest, and polite) was true, the fact that something *can* be done, doesn't mean it *should* be done. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips d.phill...@partner.samsung.com wrote: On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: I think you need more than hope to change one of the fundamental rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without being offensive or abusive. You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means. I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be a straw man fallacy. Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that claim. And even supposing that such an obvious fallacy (that one can *always* be both open and honest, and polite) was true, the fact that something *can* be done, doesn't mean it *should* be done. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips d.phill...@partner.samsung.com wrote: On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: I think you need more than hope to change one of the fundamental rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without being offensive or abusive. You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means. I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be a straw man fallacy. Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that claim. It's not actually one of the original logical fallacies, but it's called argument to moderation or false compromise: The fallacy is the assumption that the original statements represent extremal positions of a continuum so there must always be middle ground which represents the correct statement. To those accepting the fallacy making the middle ground statement by that fact alone demonstrates the invalidity of the previous proposition. I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between evolution and creationism? -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:26 PM, James Bottomley james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com wrote: On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips d.phill...@partner.samsung.com wrote: On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: I think you need more than hope to change one of the fundamental rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without being offensive or abusive. You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means. I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be a straw man fallacy. Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that claim. It's not actually one of the original logical fallacies, but it's called argument to moderation or false compromise: The fallacy is the assumption that the original statements represent extremal positions of a continuum so there must always be middle ground which represents the correct statement. To those accepting the fallacy making the middle ground statement by that fact alone demonstrates the invalidity of the previous proposition. And when so many of us had convinced ourselves that this thread could not possibly descend any further into the off-topic weeds... Good job. That assumption has now been shattered by bringing in ancient Greece. Given that, I'd like to propose a KS topic that covers Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill, Leviathan by Hobbes, and The Politics by Aristotle. C'mon folks. This is beyond silly. Let us look at the things that we can really change, or at least influence change within. Things that really matter to linux today and tomorrow. P. --- I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek compromise without rigorous examination. This actually makes argument to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it. James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:48 -0400, Paul Gortmaker wrote: C'mon folks. This is beyond silly. Let us look at the things that we can really change, or at least influence change within. Things that really matter to linux today and tomorrow. Ah, so there is middle ground between creationism and evolution! -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 2013/7/23 9:39, Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote: > >> IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the >> time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team >> is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet. >> >> Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries. > > Just my observation, but it seems that I see more women in tech from the > Asian countries than from the US. > > Watching my two teenage daughters grow up here as well as their friends, > the focus of our schools still seem more bent on being good in sports > than in academics, and even worse for science. Sports for girls happen > to be much more serious than when I was in school. Being a "nerd" for a > boy is starting to get a bit more acceptance (see Big Bang Theory), but > for girls they seem a bit more harsh. At least from what I can tell by > watching how things are with my kids and their friends. One of the > friends of my daughter, who does very well in school, hides her grades > and "pretends" to be stupid. This is really a sad state of affairs if > you ask me :-( > In china we are in the opposite. In college girls like to stay in school library to study, and in general they get better scores than boys, and they don't like sports. But being good in study is not the same as being good at programming, and in fact they are not keen in coding! And I think IT companies in China tend to lower their requirements when the job interviewee is a female. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote: > IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the > time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team > is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet. > > Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries. Just my observation, but it seems that I see more women in tech from the Asian countries than from the US. Watching my two teenage daughters grow up here as well as their friends, the focus of our schools still seem more bent on being good in sports than in academics, and even worse for science. Sports for girls happen to be much more serious than when I was in school. Being a "nerd" for a boy is starting to get a bit more acceptance (see Big Bang Theory), but for girls they seem a bit more harsh. At least from what I can tell by watching how things are with my kids and their friends. One of the friends of my daughter, who does very well in school, hides her grades and "pretends" to be stupid. This is really a sad state of affairs if you ask me :-( -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 2013/7/21 21:22, Ric Wheeler wrote: > On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote: >> n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: >>> >On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > > >* Felipe Contreras wrote: >>> > > > >>As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with > > >>everybody. > > > >That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double > >the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. >>> > >>> >Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many >>> >women programmers as there are men. >> In some countries, though not all. >> >> But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among >> programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free >> software communities including the Linux kernel developers. >> > > Just a couple of data points to add. > > When I was in graduate school in Israel, we had more women doing their phd > then men. Not a huge sample, but it was interesting. > > The counter sample is the number of coding women we have at Red Hat in the > kernel team. We are around zero per cent. Certainly a sign that we need to do > better, regardless of the broader community challenges... > IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet. Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 2013/7/21 21:22, Ric Wheeler wrote: On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote: n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnarmi...@kernel.org wrote: * Felipe Contrerasfelipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many women programmers as there are men. In some countries, though not all. But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free software communities including the Linux kernel developers. Just a couple of data points to add. When I was in graduate school in Israel, we had more women doing their phd then men. Not a huge sample, but it was interesting. The counter sample is the number of coding women we have at Red Hat in the kernel team. We are around zero per cent. Certainly a sign that we need to do better, regardless of the broader community challenges... IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet. Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote: IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet. Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries. Just my observation, but it seems that I see more women in tech from the Asian countries than from the US. Watching my two teenage daughters grow up here as well as their friends, the focus of our schools still seem more bent on being good in sports than in academics, and even worse for science. Sports for girls happen to be much more serious than when I was in school. Being a nerd for a boy is starting to get a bit more acceptance (see Big Bang Theory), but for girls they seem a bit more harsh. At least from what I can tell by watching how things are with my kids and their friends. One of the friends of my daughter, who does very well in school, hides her grades and pretends to be stupid. This is really a sad state of affairs if you ask me :-( -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 2013/7/23 9:39, Steven Rostedt wrote: On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote: IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet. Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries. Just my observation, but it seems that I see more women in tech from the Asian countries than from the US. Watching my two teenage daughters grow up here as well as their friends, the focus of our schools still seem more bent on being good in sports than in academics, and even worse for science. Sports for girls happen to be much more serious than when I was in school. Being a nerd for a boy is starting to get a bit more acceptance (see Big Bang Theory), but for girls they seem a bit more harsh. At least from what I can tell by watching how things are with my kids and their friends. One of the friends of my daughter, who does very well in school, hides her grades and pretends to be stupid. This is really a sad state of affairs if you ask me :-( In china we are in the opposite. In college girls like to stay in school library to study, and in general they get better scores than boys, and they don't like sports. But being good in study is not the same as being good at programming, and in fact they are not keen in coding! And I think IT companies in China tend to lower their requirements when the job interviewee is a female. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote: n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: >On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > > >* Felipe Contreras wrote: > > >>As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. > > > >That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double > >the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. > >Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many >women programmers as there are men. In some countries, though not all. But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free software communities including the Linux kernel developers. Just a couple of data points to add. When I was in graduate school in Israel, we had more women doing their phd then men. Not a huge sample, but it was interesting. The counter sample is the number of coding women we have at Red Hat in the kernel team. We are around zero per cent. Certainly a sign that we need to do better, regardless of the broader community challenges... Ric -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote: n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnarmi...@kernel.org wrote: * Felipe Contrerasfelipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many women programmers as there are men. In some countries, though not all. But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free software communities including the Linux kernel developers. Just a couple of data points to add. When I was in graduate school in Israel, we had more women doing their phd then men. Not a huge sample, but it was interesting. The counter sample is the number of coding women we have at Red Hat in the kernel team. We are around zero per cent. Certainly a sign that we need to do better, regardless of the broader community challenges... Ric -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental > rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your > opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without being offensive or abusive. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > > > * Felipe Contreras wrote: > > >> As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. > > > > That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double > > the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. > > Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many > women programmers as there are men. In some countries, though not all. But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free software communities including the Linux kernel developers. > So there's absolutely *nothing* > the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the > Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women). > > At best that is a societal/academic/professional issue, not a Linux issue. [...] There is a broader societal issue, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a problem at the level of individual developer communities. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Humans are not rational beings; they are rationalising beings. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Felipe Contreras > wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote: >>> >>> * Felipe Contreras wrote: >> As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. >>> >>> That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double >>> the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. >> >> Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many >> women programmers as there are men. So there's absolutely *nothing* >> the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the >> Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women). > > There may be less women programmers than men programmers, but that > doesn't say anything about the ratio of female Linux kernel hackers vs. > female programmers. I think it does, because Linux kernel programmers is a subset of programmers; the very best and very low-level. Unless women programmers are disproportionately biased towards low-level, and they are significantly better than their male counterparts, I wouldn't be holding my breath. The best case scenario is that we are equal in that regard, in which case you probably would expect to double or triple the number of female programmers in Linux thanks to outreach programs, but certainly not match the amount of male ones. > So let's hope we can prove you wrong soon ;-) I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Geert Uytterhoeven ge...@linux-m68k.org wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar mi...@kernel.org wrote: * Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many women programmers as there are men. So there's absolutely *nothing* the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women). There may be less women programmers than men programmers, but that doesn't say anything about the ratio of female Linux kernel hackers vs. female programmers. I think it does, because Linux kernel programmers is a subset of programmers; the very best and very low-level. Unless women programmers are disproportionately biased towards low-level, and they are significantly better than their male counterparts, I wouldn't be holding my breath. The best case scenario is that we are equal in that regard, in which case you probably would expect to double or triple the number of female programmers in Linux thanks to outreach programs, but certainly not match the amount of male ones. So let's hope we can prove you wrong soon ;-) I think you need more than hope to change one of the fundamental rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar mi...@kernel.org wrote: * Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many women programmers as there are men. In some countries, though not all. But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free software communities including the Linux kernel developers. So there's absolutely *nothing* the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women). At best that is a societal/academic/professional issue, not a Linux issue. [...] There is a broader societal issue, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a problem at the level of individual developer communities. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Humans are not rational beings; they are rationalising beings. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: I think you need more than hope to change one of the fundamental rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful. Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without being offensive or abusive. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 16:43:53 -0400 Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: > > > If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on > > teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ... > > No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-) > I genuinely think the gender difference is a distraction. The simple fact is that people are different. Wildly amazingly beautifully different. Certainly some metrics have starkly different averages for men than women, and there can be biological and social drivers of that. But those metrics very often vary greatly among men and among women. But it's really people that are different. Some people are very perceptive of, and responsive to, those differences. They are able and willing to listen and understand and adjust. They try to fit in with others. I know a few people like that and I am staggered by how effectively they bond with other people. Other people are blind to the differences. They expect everyone to be just like themselves. When the reality shows that isn't true they create coarse stereotypes to allow them to pigeon hole others. This naturally leads to prejudice and sometimes to hate. And I know a few people like that too - maybe not quite the extreme, but certainly closer to that extreme than me. I believe that the abstract/mathematical/literal abilities that allow someone to be good at software development is inversely correlated with the holistic/forgiving/flexible abilities that allow someone to be good at understanding others. One needs to care deeply about small details. The other needs to work with hints and suggestions and accept that precision is simply not available. I know for myself that such understanding of people as I have has developed slowly due to hard work, patience from a loving wife and others, and from me stepping well outside my comfort zone - where as the mathematical ability was obvious in kindergarten and never needed any encouragement. And the people I know who are very good with other people are about as comfortable with technology as I am with strangers (i.e. not very). If this negative correlation is true, then it says something very important about our community. I don't think there is any need for me to spell it out. I think the recent discussion demonstrates this quite clearly. Lots of beating on chests, very little meeting of minds. Lots of talk about technical solutions (or non-solutions), very little suggestion of acknowledgement, accommodation or compromise. [some - yes. But not much] Maybe that is just who we are. Yes, we are sometimes blind to differences in others and can lead us to hurt and repel them. But that blindness allows us to focus on excellence in technology and so it is worth it. Or maybe that is only who were were. Maybe we've got the technology pretty much under control and we (individuals) can choose to put more effort into listening to people who are very different to us. Stop accepting the fact that we "just don't understand some people" and use our not inconsiderable intellect find some understanding. (and no, I don't completely understand my wife either, but I'm sure I understand her better now than I once did). NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: > If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on > teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ... No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-) -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 14:56 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > > But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's > > something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes > > them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the > > scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an > > opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then > > whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing > > needs to change. > > I don't know bout susceptible to personal attacks, but I have two > teenage daughters and I can't figure them out yet. I'll say something > that I think might get them upset and they are fine with it. Then I'll > say something, where I see no harm, and suddenly I'm the most evil > person in the world and they go all emotional on me. I'm afraid I've got bad news for you: That's not a male/female thing, that's a teenage thing. I'm also afraid that it's set to continue for a while yet. > Women are too complex for me to figure out. Perhaps men are just too > simple minded (my wife keeps telling me that). Or perhaps it's just > me ;-) If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ... James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Felipe Contreras
wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>>
>> * Felipe Contreras wrote:
>
>>> As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
>>
>> That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double
>> the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project.
>
> Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many
> women programmers as there are men. So there's absolutely *nothing*
> the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the
> Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women).
There may be less women programmers than men programmers, but that
doesn't say anything about the ratio of female Linux kernel hackers vs.
female programmers.
So let's hope we can prove you wrong soon ;-)
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- ge...@linux-m68k.org
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: > But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's > something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes > them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the > scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an > opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then > whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing > needs to change. I don't know bout susceptible to personal attacks, but I have two teenage daughters and I can't figure them out yet. I'll say something that I think might get them upset and they are fine with it. Then I'll say something, where I see no harm, and suddenly I'm the most evil person in the world and they go all emotional on me. Women are too complex for me to figure out. Perhaps men are just too simple minded (my wife keeps telling me that). Or perhaps it's just me ;-) -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > * Felipe Contreras wrote: >> As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. > > That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double > the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many women programmers as there are men. So there's absolutely *nothing* the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women). At best that is a societal/academic/professional issue, not a Linux issue. > Even if you don't care about gender fairness, that kind of bona fide > benefit to the project is worth a try or two I think ... I think the Linux kernel is perfectly gender-fair, in fact, you don't even need to state you gender; you would be treated the same either way. But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing needs to change. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/18/2013 11:03 PM, Paul E. McKenney wrote: >> >> Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into >> sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me. >> >> It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you >> maintain your own little corner of the world. > > Agreed! Though I must confess that I have shifted from being mostly > worried about people yelling at me to being mostly worried about my own > code yelling at me. Either way, I do find that being worried about some > consequence or another does help me get a better result. > Yes. Linus' little rant from last weekend has had me and the other tip maintainers look at process changes and new tooling, which we probably should have done a while ago... but it just got way too buried on the list of priorities. -hpa -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
* Felipe Contreras wrote: > [...] > > Anyway, through the discussion it has been established that swearing is > rare, most of often directed to the code, and on exceptional occasions > directed to people, when they *deserve* it. And you seem to be implying > that women can't tolerate that, so a change needs to be made in order to > attract more women to the project. Is that correct? While I don't talk for Sarah, the way you have put it is broadly correct (although your formulation is adversarial and leading): most communities dominated by women are hugely offputting to males and communities dominated by males are hugely offputting to women. Open communities dominated by one gender (males in most cases) that want to essentially double their creative brain capacity by attracting the other gender are well advised to try to figure out a solution to that problem. > Personally I don't believe that. Essentially every other open source > project out there, except the Linux kernel, has some kind code of > conduct, whether it's implicit or explicit, and yet they don't have many > developer women either. But fine, let's suppose what you say it's true. Code of conduct is unfortunately not enough - there's many conscious and subconscious dimensions to a community that make it offputting to one gender or the other and once a community becomes a mono-culture by one gender (due to historic gender bias or due to sheer luck) it's (very) hard to change it. > As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Even if you don't care about gender fairness, that kind of bona fide benefit to the project is worth a try or two I think ... Thanks, Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
* Willy Tarreau wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > Go look at Dreamwidth, the open source Livejournal fork. It has a > > good code of conduct, so developers are civil to each other. They > > encourage all patch submissions, and take the time to work with people > > who don't understand their community rules. > > > > The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying > > fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source > > project, your developers need to be civil, and not verbally abuse each > > other. > > But this has nothing to do with a project's success or quality, gender > is not related. Are you suggesting that with more women the Linux kernel > would be a more successful project ? If so I think you're a bit biased. > In my opinion, only its good people make it a good project, whatever > their gender. I don't necessarily agree with everything that Sarah has stated, but I think we can declare it with scientific certainty that utilizing the other 50% of creative brainpower that humanity has available can only improve the Linux kernel, and drastically so. ( The "how" is the 1 trillion dollars question, and I'm glad Sarah is working on that problem. ) Thanks, Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
* Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I > > > don't mean in this thread. > > > > I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal > > threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread. > > But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well. > > That's the nastiness of the Internet, a different topic than LKML > development. And I don't consider this thread really a LKML thread, as > it's about social behavior and nothing about the Linux kernel itself. > > > > > Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626 > > > > And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098 > > Both are cowardly trolls that didn't post publicly. > > > > > On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel > > development, along with more than a few misogynist comments: > > > > "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered > > to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It???s an opt-in community > > and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor." > > > > "You???re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T???so > > first to criticize him for his behaviour." > > > > "Drama Queen" > > > > "The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over > > yourself." > > > > "shit, just what we need ??? a bitch running around crying about how hurt > > her feelings are." > > > > "Oy vey you poor goyi???girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that > > being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have > > done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters > > negative views of minorities." > > > > "This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech > > world ??? because you???re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who > > expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily > > offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It???s real cute how > > you???ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading > > against ???muh bigotry??? and ???muh intolerance.??? You???re a feminist > > joke, one > > in a very long line." > > Again, this is the Internet social media, which is not an environment > for productivity, but a cesspool of filth. Off topic to what I asked. > > > Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork. > > And what did you expect? The Internet if filled with assholes. It's worse than that: being an asshole appears to also be correlated with the likelihood of speaking up on forums! So assholes are overrepresented, especially on forums that are semi-anonymous. Sarah, you should see some of the hateful comments I got over past scheduler maintenance decisions... [Or rather, you should not.] When being involved in polarizing discussions, especially if you yourself frame it as polarizing, you should expect to receive a wide spectrum of opinion and outright trolling. The hateful, despicable, abhorrent trolling you cited should not be projected over to your opponent in the discussion, unless your opponent voices it as well ... Thanks, Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/15/2013 05:38 PM, Linus Torvalds wrote: > A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very > different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on > the tables? As I think the purpose of this discussion was to improve linux by attracting and growing new talent, may I suggest that you include a greenhorn submitter on such a panel. Dave. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:01:05PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote: > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote: > > > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this... > > > > > > 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional > > > rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing. > > > That said, I would be interested in hearing specific examples > > > of open-source communities that are as doing as well as is the > > > Linux community and that live within stricter social mores. > > > Cue arguments about exactly what "doing well" means...] > > My little personal opinion (that nobody probably cares about :-) is that > the occasional Linus rant is a good thing. It keeps people like me in > check :-) > > More seriously, the rant when I screw up is generally deserved, and the > "idea" of the possible rant (I prefer not using threat) is actually a > strong motivator to get things right. > > Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into > sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me. > > It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you > maintain your own little corner of the world. Agreed! Though I must confess that I have shifted from being mostly worried about people yelling at me to being mostly worried about my own code yelling at me. Either way, I do find that being worried about some consequence or another does help me get a better result. Thanx, Paul -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:01:05PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote: On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote: OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this... 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing. That said, I would be interested in hearing specific examples of open-source communities that are as doing as well as is the Linux community and that live within stricter social mores. Cue arguments about exactly what doing well means...] My little personal opinion (that nobody probably cares about :-) is that the occasional Linus rant is a good thing. It keeps people like me in check :-) More seriously, the rant when I screw up is generally deserved, and the idea of the possible rant (I prefer not using threat) is actually a strong motivator to get things right. Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me. It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you maintain your own little corner of the world. Agreed! Though I must confess that I have shifted from being mostly worried about people yelling at me to being mostly worried about my own code yelling at me. Either way, I do find that being worried about some consequence or another does help me get a better result. Thanx, Paul -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/15/2013 05:38 PM, Linus Torvalds wrote: A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on the tables? As I think the purpose of this discussion was to improve linux by attracting and growing new talent, may I suggest that you include a greenhorn submitter on such a panel. Dave. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
* Steven Rostedt rost...@goodmis.org wrote: On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I don't mean in this thread. I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread. But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well. That's the nastiness of the Internet, a different topic than LKML development. And I don't consider this thread really a LKML thread, as it's about social behavior and nothing about the Linux kernel itself. Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia: https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626 And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live: https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098 Both are cowardly trolls that didn't post publicly. On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel development, along with more than a few misogynist comments: You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It???s an opt-in community and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor. You???re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T???so first to criticize him for his behaviour. Drama Queen The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over yourself. shit, just what we need ??? a bitch running around crying about how hurt her feelings are. Oy vey you poor goyi???girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters negative views of minorities. This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech world ??? because you???re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It???s real cute how you???ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading against ???muh bigotry??? and ???muh intolerance.??? You???re a feminist joke, one in a very long line. Again, this is the Internet social media, which is not an environment for productivity, but a cesspool of filth. Off topic to what I asked. Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork. And what did you expect? The Internet if filled with assholes. It's worse than that: being an asshole appears to also be correlated with the likelihood of speaking up on forums! So assholes are overrepresented, especially on forums that are semi-anonymous. Sarah, you should see some of the hateful comments I got over past scheduler maintenance decisions... [Or rather, you should not.] When being involved in polarizing discussions, especially if you yourself frame it as polarizing, you should expect to receive a wide spectrum of opinion and outright trolling. The hateful, despicable, abhorrent trolling you cited should not be projected over to your opponent in the discussion, unless your opponent voices it as well ... Thanks, Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
* Willy Tarreau w...@1wt.eu wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: Go look at Dreamwidth, the open source Livejournal fork. It has a good code of conduct, so developers are civil to each other. They encourage all patch submissions, and take the time to work with people who don't understand their community rules. The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source project, your developers need to be civil, and not verbally abuse each other. But this has nothing to do with a project's success or quality, gender is not related. Are you suggesting that with more women the Linux kernel would be a more successful project ? If so I think you're a bit biased. In my opinion, only its good people make it a good project, whatever their gender. I don't necessarily agree with everything that Sarah has stated, but I think we can declare it with scientific certainty that utilizing the other 50% of creative brainpower that humanity has available can only improve the Linux kernel, and drastically so. ( The how is the 1 trillion dollars question, and I'm glad Sarah is working on that problem. ) Thanks, Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
* Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Anyway, through the discussion it has been established that swearing is rare, most of often directed to the code, and on exceptional occasions directed to people, when they *deserve* it. And you seem to be implying that women can't tolerate that, so a change needs to be made in order to attract more women to the project. Is that correct? While I don't talk for Sarah, the way you have put it is broadly correct (although your formulation is adversarial and leading): most communities dominated by women are hugely offputting to males and communities dominated by males are hugely offputting to women. Open communities dominated by one gender (males in most cases) that want to essentially double their creative brain capacity by attracting the other gender are well advised to try to figure out a solution to that problem. Personally I don't believe that. Essentially every other open source project out there, except the Linux kernel, has some kind code of conduct, whether it's implicit or explicit, and yet they don't have many developer women either. But fine, let's suppose what you say it's true. Code of conduct is unfortunately not enough - there's many conscious and subconscious dimensions to a community that make it offputting to one gender or the other and once a community becomes a mono-culture by one gender (due to historic gender bias or due to sheer luck) it's (very) hard to change it. As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Even if you don't care about gender fairness, that kind of bona fide benefit to the project is worth a try or two I think ... Thanks, Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/18/2013 11:03 PM, Paul E. McKenney wrote: Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me. It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you maintain your own little corner of the world. Agreed! Though I must confess that I have shifted from being mostly worried about people yelling at me to being mostly worried about my own code yelling at me. Either way, I do find that being worried about some consequence or another does help me get a better result. Yes. Linus' little rant from last weekend has had me and the other tip maintainers look at process changes and new tooling, which we probably should have done a while ago... but it just got way too buried on the list of priorities. -hpa -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar mi...@kernel.org wrote: * Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote: As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many women programmers as there are men. So there's absolutely *nothing* the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women). At best that is a societal/academic/professional issue, not a Linux issue. Even if you don't care about gender fairness, that kind of bona fide benefit to the project is worth a try or two I think ... I think the Linux kernel is perfectly gender-fair, in fact, you don't even need to state you gender; you would be treated the same either way. But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing needs to change. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing needs to change. I don't know bout susceptible to personal attacks, but I have two teenage daughters and I can't figure them out yet. I'll say something that I think might get them upset and they are fine with it. Then I'll say something, where I see no harm, and suddenly I'm the most evil person in the world and they go all emotional on me. Women are too complex for me to figure out. Perhaps men are just too simple minded (my wife keeps telling me that). Or perhaps it's just me ;-) -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Felipe Contreras
felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar mi...@kernel.org wrote:
* Felipe Contreras felipe.contre...@gmail.com wrote:
As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double
the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project.
Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many
women programmers as there are men. So there's absolutely *nothing*
the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the
Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women).
There may be less women programmers than men programmers, but that
doesn't say anything about the ratio of female Linux kernel hackers vs.
female programmers.
So let's hope we can prove you wrong soon ;-)
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- ge...@linux-m68k.org
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 14:56 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote: But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing needs to change. I don't know bout susceptible to personal attacks, but I have two teenage daughters and I can't figure them out yet. I'll say something that I think might get them upset and they are fine with it. Then I'll say something, where I see no harm, and suddenly I'm the most evil person in the world and they go all emotional on me. I'm afraid I've got bad news for you: That's not a male/female thing, that's a teenage thing. I'm also afraid that it's set to continue for a while yet. Women are too complex for me to figure out. Perhaps men are just too simple minded (my wife keeps telling me that). Or perhaps it's just me ;-) If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ... James -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ... No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-) -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 16:43:53 -0400 Steven Rostedt rost...@goodmis.org wrote: On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote: If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ... No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-) I genuinely think the gender difference is a distraction. The simple fact is that people are different. Wildly amazingly beautifully different. Certainly some metrics have starkly different averages for men than women, and there can be biological and social drivers of that. But those metrics very often vary greatly among men and among women. But it's really people that are different. Some people are very perceptive of, and responsive to, those differences. They are able and willing to listen and understand and adjust. They try to fit in with others. I know a few people like that and I am staggered by how effectively they bond with other people. Other people are blind to the differences. They expect everyone to be just like themselves. When the reality shows that isn't true they create coarse stereotypes to allow them to pigeon hole others. This naturally leads to prejudice and sometimes to hate. And I know a few people like that too - maybe not quite the extreme, but certainly closer to that extreme than me. I believe that the abstract/mathematical/literal abilities that allow someone to be good at software development is inversely correlated with the holistic/forgiving/flexible abilities that allow someone to be good at understanding others. One needs to care deeply about small details. The other needs to work with hints and suggestions and accept that precision is simply not available. I know for myself that such understanding of people as I have has developed slowly due to hard work, patience from a loving wife and others, and from me stepping well outside my comfort zone - where as the mathematical ability was obvious in kindergarten and never needed any encouragement. And the people I know who are very good with other people are about as comfortable with technology as I am with strangers (i.e. not very). If this negative correlation is true, then it says something very important about our community. I don't think there is any need for me to spell it out. I think the recent discussion demonstrates this quite clearly. Lots of beating on chests, very little meeting of minds. Lots of talk about technical solutions (or non-solutions), very little suggestion of acknowledgement, accommodation or compromise. [some - yes. But not much] Maybe that is just who we are. Yes, we are sometimes blind to differences in others and can lead us to hurt and repel them. But that blindness allows us to focus on excellence in technology and so it is worth it. Or maybe that is only who were were. Maybe we've got the technology pretty much under control and we (individuals) can choose to put more effort into listening to people who are very different to us. Stop accepting the fact that we just don't understand some people and use our not inconsiderable intellect find some understanding. (and no, I don't completely understand my wife either, but I'm sure I understand her better now than I once did). NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
Il 16/07/2013 20:27, James Bottomley ha scritto: > I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of > civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to > do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument > doesn't suit everyone, so it's not a standard of behaviour I'd like to > see universally imposed. Honestly, it is not just the low traffic, it's also that most of the patches (90%?) are drivers that hardly anyone cares about. There is very little core work going on in linux-scsi, which would be a lot harder to discuss and review (making heated tones more likely to happen). This is not what happens in other areas (net for example, just to remain within drivers/). > In fact, I've got to say that I wouldn't like > to see *any* behaviour standard imposed ... they're all basically cover > for power plays (or soon get abused as power plays); the only real way > to display leadership on behaviour standards is by example not by fiat. This I completely agree with, and you set a great example of civility. Paolo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
Il 16/07/2013 20:27, James Bottomley ha scritto: I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument doesn't suit everyone, so it's not a standard of behaviour I'd like to see universally imposed. Honestly, it is not just the low traffic, it's also that most of the patches (90%?) are drivers that hardly anyone cares about. There is very little core work going on in linux-scsi, which would be a lot harder to discuss and review (making heated tones more likely to happen). This is not what happens in other areas (net for example, just to remain within drivers/). In fact, I've got to say that I wouldn't like to see *any* behaviour standard imposed ... they're all basically cover for power plays (or soon get abused as power plays); the only real way to display leadership on behaviour standards is by example not by fiat. This I completely agree with, and you set a great example of civility. Paolo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:24:18PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody. > > > > Depends on details of your definition of abuse. [snip] > http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html " "Always" and "Never" Statements - "Always" and "Never" Statements are declarations containing the words "always" or "never". They are commonly used but rarely true. " See above... And as far as I can see in this thread, there *is* a pattern of that by Stefano; should that be interpreted as verbal abuse? > Key ones that apply to LKML communications: belittlement, demeaning > statements, hysteria, name-calling, raging and violent statements, and > mocking sarcasm. " Targeted Humor, Mocking and Sarcasm - Targeted Humor is any sustained pattern of joking, sarcasm or mockery which is designed to reduce another individual's reputation in their own eyes or in the eyes of others. " s/individual's reputation/appeal of a bad idea being proposed/ and you'll get something that is not only justified, but highly valuable. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
- Original Message - > From: "Sarah Sharp" > To: "CAI Qian" > Cc: "Trond Myklebust" , "Ric Wheeler" > , "David Lang" > , ksummit-2013-disc...@lists.linuxfoundation.org, "Greg > Kroah-Hartman" , > "Darren Hart" , "Ingo Molnar" , > "Olivier Galibert" , > "Linux Kernel Mailing List" , "stable" > , "Linus Torvalds" > , "Willy Tarreau" > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:48:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:36:36AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote: > > > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote: > > > > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > > > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where > > > > > the > > > > > baseline of "good" behavior is. We need to define what behavior we > > > > > want > > > > > from both maintainers and patch submitters. E.g. "No regressions" > > > > > and > > > > > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks". That needs to be > > > > > written down somewhere, and it isn't. If it's documented somewhere, > > > > > point me to the file in Documentation. Hint: it's not there. > > > > > > > > > > That is the problem. > > > > > > > > > > Sarah Sharp > > > > > > > > The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less > > > > effective > > > > as a community. > > > > > > Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this > > > community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and > > > have no problems with it. > > > > > > Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting > > > _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some > > > journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy > > > comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy > > > newbies. > > > > > > On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people > > > of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of > > > a social scientist to help us find out... > > > > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin > > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe > > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture? > > No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with > shit". We need a better pipeline for people who can work together > civilly, and still get shit done. > > I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development, > through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women. They slowly get introduced > to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate > mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel > mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists. > We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have > even more the next round. > > So deal with it. You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel > community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal > abuse. If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women > or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop. Maybe we need something like this? http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct > > Sarah Sharp > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe stable" in > the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia: > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626 > > And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live: > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098 > > On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel > development, along with more than a few misogynist comments: > > "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered > to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It’s an opt-in community > and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor." > > "You’re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T’so > first to criticize him for his behaviour." There is a whole army of idiots out there, we know that. We aren't going to fix *that*. Was any of the above actually a *relevant* person as part of our community ? Because non of what we do, say, document, decide, etc... here will change those idiots. Cheers, Ben. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote: > > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this... > > > > 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional > > rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing. > > That said, I would be interested in hearing specific examples > > of open-source communities that are as doing as well as is the > > Linux community and that live within stricter social mores. > > Cue arguments about exactly what "doing well" means...] My little personal opinion (that nobody probably cares about :-) is that the occasional Linus rant is a good thing. It keeps people like me in check :-) More seriously, the rant when I screw up is generally deserved, and the "idea" of the possible rant (I prefer not using threat) is actually a strong motivator to get things right. Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me. It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you maintain your own little corner of the world. Cheers, Ben. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:19:34PM -0700, Guenter Roeck wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08:31PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote: > > > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > > > > > [ ... ] > > > >> > > > >> The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying > > > >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source > > > > > > > > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its > > > > use is > > > > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me > > > > that you > > > > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, > > > > much less > > > > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when > > > > you use > > > > it while arguing for a more civil discussion. > > > > > > > > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do > > > > you want > > > > to take that right away from others ? > > > > > > Thank you for your comment. (seriously) > > > > > > and Dave Miller's as well. > > > > The USA social conventions have changed quite significantly over the past > > 50 years, haven't they? But that is OK, the younger people on this list > > will likely have the opportunity to experience far greater changes over > > the next 50 years, especially given increasing fractions of people's > > life experiences being publicly recorded. It would be interesting to > > see how they react, but I probably won't be around to witness it. ;-) > > > My kids use the word all the time, and look at me with an odd face if I point > out > that it is not a nice word to use (for me). Several people I know and respect > seem to be unable to say a sentence without using it. So, yes, I am aware that > times are changing, and that my cultural context is different than that of the > culture I am living in. But that isn't the point here. Heh! If I were to ask each of the N participants in this thread what the point was, would I get fewer than N different answers? ;-) Thanx, Paul -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:42:44PM +0100, Al Viro wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote: >> >> > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody. >> >> Depends on details of your definition of abuse. >> >> > So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse. >> > The Oxford dictionary gives me: >> > >> > "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way" >> >> Insufficient details to tell if the statement above is correct. >> Insulting and offensive to *whom*? > > It's not helpful to look at a dictionary definition of verbal abuse, > because it's much too short. > > Here's a much longer description of verbally abusive behaviors: > > http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html That definition starts with this: "Any kind of repeated pattern of inappropriate, derogatory or threatening speech directed at one individual by another." The key word being *REPEATED*. I don't see Linus *repeatedly* insulting Mauro (or any other developer), under that definition, it's not verbal abuse. I don't like that definition, but even in that one your claim doesn't stand. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08:31PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote: > > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > > > [ ... ] > > >> > > >> The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying > > >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source > > > > > > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its > > > use is > > > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me > > > that you > > > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much > > > less > > > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when > > > you use > > > it while arguing for a more civil discussion. > > > > > > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do > > > you want > > > to take that right away from others ? > > > > Thank you for your comment. (seriously) > > > > and Dave Miller's as well. > > The USA social conventions have changed quite significantly over the past > 50 years, haven't they? But that is OK, the younger people on this list > will likely have the opportunity to experience far greater changes over > the next 50 years, especially given increasing fractions of people's > life experiences being publicly recorded. It would be interesting to > see how they react, but I probably won't be around to witness it. ;-) > My kids use the word all the time, and look at me with an odd face if I point out that it is not a nice word to use (for me). Several people I know and respect seem to be unable to say a sentence without using it. So, yes, I am aware that times are changing, and that my cultural context is different than that of the culture I am living in. But that isn't the point here. Guenter -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote: > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > [ ... ] > >> > >> The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying > >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source > > > > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its use > > is > > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me that > > you > > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much > > less > > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when you > > use > > it while arguing for a more civil discussion. > > > > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do you > > want > > to take that right away from others ? > > Thank you for your comment. (seriously) > > and Dave Miller's as well. The USA social conventions have changed quite significantly over the past 50 years, haven't they? But that is OK, the younger people on this list will likely have the opportunity to experience far greater changes over the next 50 years, especially given increasing fractions of people's life experiences being publicly recorded. It would be interesting to see how they react, but I probably won't be around to witness it. ;-) Thanx, Paul -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
Sarah Sharp wrote: > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626 > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098 > > On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel > development, along with more than a few misogynist comments: So it's a publicity stunt then. That is the only rational explanation, because the alternative explanation is that you're trying to tame the internet ;) Another flash in the pan: this whole event (and you) will be erased from everyone's memories in a few weeks. Okay, maybe a few months if you get fired from SendGrid. You're better than that. Think calmly, and focus your attention on making a long-term impact. Hint: it's not going to happen by arguing endlessly about the same thing. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote: > > Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison. > > Point taken. > > I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to > modify it a bit as it wasn't meant to be public. > > > When I started sending patches to LKML it was not the cursing I was > afraid of, it was the possibility of top notch developers pointing out > my flaws. Linux is intimidating not because it can be harsh, but because > its the big league. You are posting code not only to the world but also > to some of the best programmers on the planet, and frankly, that's > really scary. And I think that's the real reason people who are shy tend > not to want to participate. They use the harshness of LKML as an excuse, > but I think it's really that they may be insecure about their own work > and how it will compare with the best of the best. > > Both my wife and I have done karate for decades. My wife has even won a > national tournament. She can do demos without a problem, but when she > has to get up in front of other top black belts, she's a nervous wreck. > She's her biggest critic, but she tends to know that when performing in > front of people as good as she is, or better, they can see her flaws as > much as she can. That is intimidating. > > The point I'm making is that we need to find out what is preventing good > developers from joining the Linux community. Is it really the harshness > of the project, or is it because we expect you to have the best code, > and you will not be accepted if you are not that good. And I do not want > people joining that are not good programmers. > Preventing good developers from joining - I don't know. Maybe there just are not that many. I have heard lots of reasons for not paricipating in open source development. The "official" stated reason is often around "not exposing our IP", where "IP" is sometimes declared to be each line of code. Another is "we don't want to help our competitors". Personally I believe that being afraid is only part of the picture. Good developers should ultimately know that their code is good, and not be afraid to show it (or find a mentor to encourage them). However, I have to say that that much of the code I have seen in my life is _not_ good, or crap as is referred to by many in the Linux community. To some degree includes my own code - if I encounter code I have written ten years ago, I often think "did I really write this crap ?". I think _that_ is a key reason for people not participating - they are afraid that their code might be exposed as crap. A corrolary of that might be that some companies don't want their customers to see how bad the code is they are shipping to them. > The answer is not to bash Linus into being a nice guy (which seems to be > what Sarah's trying to do), but we can get mentors or even "scouts" to > look for people of talent and help them get into the community. What > those people need is not a nicer LKML that will let mediocre developers > in, but someone that recognizes their talent and encourages them to > join, by reinforcing to them how good of a developer they are. I've > helped people this way. Talented programmers that were unsure of > themselves, and they have done extremely well in our community. > Excellent summary. I absolutely agree. Thanks, Guenter -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > [ ... ] >> >> The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source > > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its use is > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me that > you > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much less > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when you > use > it while arguing for a more civil discussion. > > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do you > want > to take that right away from others ? Thank you for your comment. (seriously) and Dave Miller's as well. -- ~Randy -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me. > For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll, > Lubin, EVER again. It surprises me to see you calling someone names like that, Sarah. It seems to be contrary to the request that you are making of others. > http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/42482 Perhaps I'm missing some context, but I'm a little confused. Did you really complain at him *merely* because he used the phrase 'old boys club'? That phrase is *not* about the gender of the participants, it's about nepotism and exclusion of non-members. Men are just as excluded by the "old boys network" of that phrase, as women are. He's talking about *himself* being excluded, as far as I can tell. At least in places. To complain that he was being sexist, just because he used that phrase, was just *WRONG*. That was *absolutely* not what he was talking about. You appeared to bring gender (and gender discrimination) into a conversation where it was completely out of place and inappropriate to do so. Sarah, it may have escaped your attention that some words and phrases which are common in the English language contain words which appear to be gender-specific. But that *doesn't* make them sexist. It makes no more sense to harangue this person for his use of the phrase 'old boys club', than it would to harangue someone for saying 'mankind' instead of 'peoplekind'. > "You may be seen as a liability by Intel preaching "feminism" on a > public forum. From their point of view: will you play the gender card > on them. Here is what you did: Instead of realizing that I was being > _very_ sympathetic to a more diverse Linux development environment by > using the phrase "the old boys club", you pretended to take offense, not > realizing you're in fact becoming a liability. That's okay. Honest > mistake." > > Telling me my job at Intel is in jeopardy because I'm complaining about > sexist statements is a threat. It's verbal abuse, and I won't take it. > I shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of statements and personal > attacks. It's not verbal abuse, and it's not an attack. He's suggesting that if you jump at shadows and make inappropriate complaints, you may make your employer wary because they might be concerned that you may do the same thing to *their* detriment. Knowing your employer as I do, I think he's probably wrong — but I certainly don't think it was a personal attack. Unless that message came from someone inside your employer (and probably in your management chain), it's hard to interpret it as a 'threat'. It's just misplaced, misguided, "personal advice" being offered to make a point. You gave plenty of examples earlier of stuff which *was* completely inappropriate and personal abuse. This isn't one of them, and it detracts from your position. Sarah, if you're going to ask us to change our behaviour to accommodate those who are unable to cope with our normal day-to-day communication, then I think you need to be careful to retain your credibility by practising what you preach, and by making sure that there *is* merit in anything you do complain about. There *is* plenty to complain about, certainly, without also jumping at shadows and effectively performing an ad hominem on yourself by doing so. When you say that you want us to avoid personal abuse and attacks, that's fine and I think everyone can fairly much agree. But it looks like you have a very different definition of what 'abuse' and 'attacks' actually are, too. I think that's largely where the understanding breaks down in this discussion. I support efforts to ensure civility and encourage a more diverse participation in our community. But when I see examples like this one, I worry about what it might lead to. I fear that it might end up being taken *too* far, and that makes me reluctant to support it — I fear that we'll end up on a slippery slope to a world where I'll end up being excluded because someone will take offence at me simply using the common phrases and idioms of the language I grew up with. And the offence which is drawn will be *so* random and arbitrary and unpredictable, like the alleged 'sexism' in 'old boys club' above, that I'll be fearful of saying *anything*, ever. I don't think I'm the only one who has that reaction. -- dwmw2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:42:44PM +0100, Al Viro wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote: > > > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody. > > Depends on details of your definition of abuse. > > > So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse. > > The Oxford dictionary gives me: > > > > "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way" > > Insufficient details to tell if the statement above is correct. > Insulting and offensive to *whom*? It's not helpful to look at a dictionary definition of verbal abuse, because it's much too short. Here's a much longer description of verbally abusive behaviors: http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html Key ones that apply to LKML communications: belittlement, demeaning statements, hysteria, name-calling, raging and violent statements, and mocking sarcasm. Sarah Sharp -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: [ ... ] > > The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying > fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its use is now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me that you of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much less in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when you use it while arguing for a more civil discussion. Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do you want to take that right away from others ? Guenter -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:14:49AM +0400, James Bottomley wrote: > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote: > > > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly > > > > > doubt > > > > > we would solve anything, but it certainly would be a fun segment to > > > > > watch :-) > > > > > > > > I think we should, because I think it's the kind of thing we really > > > > need at the KS - talking about "process". > > > > > > Can you formulate the process issue to discuss? I've heard "Linus needs > > > to yell less at people" and "the mailing lists need to be more > > > 'professional'" neither of which seems to identify an actual process. > > > Are we perhaps discussing guidelines for giving feedback on patches? > > > > > > > At the same time, I really don't know what the format would possibly > > > > be like for it to really work as a reasonable discussion. And I think > > > > that is important, because this kind of subject is *not* likely > > > > possible in the traditional "people sit around tables and maybe > > > > somebody has a few slides" format. > > > > > > > A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very > > > > different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on > > > > the tables? That could be fun. And I'm serious, although we might want > > > > to limit the size of the fruit to smaller berries ;) > > > > > > How about Lychees? They're prickly on the outside, very wet on the > > > inside and have large stones ... > > > > They taste good, too. > > > > > But what are the viewpoints? "maintainers need to yell more"? > > > "maintainers need to yell less"? I don't think I agree with either. > > > I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of > > > civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to > > > do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument > > > doesn't suit everyone, so it's not a standard of behaviour I'd like to > > > see universally imposed. In fact, I've got to say that I wouldn't like > > > to see *any* behaviour standard imposed ... they're all basically cover > > > for power plays (or soon get abused as power plays); the only real way > > > to display leadership on behaviour standards is by example not by fiat. > > > > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this... > > > > 1. Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional > > rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing. > > That said, I would be interested in hearing specific examples > > of open-source communities that are as doing as well as is the > > Linux community and that live within stricter social mores. > > Cue arguments about exactly what "doing well" means...] > > > > 2. Could the Linux kernel community's health be improved by banning > > the occasional rant? [Again, I don't believe that we have any > > way of knowing.] > > > > 3. Is there some reasonable way to accommodate a wide range of > > styles of interaction within the Linux community? [I hope that > > the answer is "yes", but it probably becomes impossible if you > > add the qualifier "that everyone is happy with".] > > > > 4. If there is some reasonable way to accommodate a wide range > > of styles of interaction within the Linux community, can this > > be done globally, or does this require that people who prefer a > > specific style confine themselves to portions of the community > > that practice that specific style? [As I grow older, I become > > increasingly pessimistic about the possibility of keeping everyone > > happy, but who knows?] > > > > For whatever it is worth... > > Well, you have friends in acadaemia, perhaps there might be an > interesting study here. If you consider the management style of the > kernel, does it enable contributions from a broader range of people than > would be tolerated in industry? Industry has a problem with what > managers like to call "brilliant jerks" people who have a well > recognised talent but who cannot be controlled (at least by the > aforementioned managers) and become corrosive to the team (do we > actually manage to make use of these people in the kernel?). They also > tend to have a problem at the bottom end: those who are just about OK at > their jobs; certainly not bad enough to be fired but whom they'd dearly > love to replace with better workers (does the attitude in the kernel > tend to discourage these types?) > > It's probably less relevant to the discussion at hand, but I'd be > curious to see the results. Assuming they say that we do have a higher > output per developer, the next study could investigate why this is ... I do
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> I've said it several times in this thread. I think the tone of LKML has
> been getting more tame, and it's not your father's mailing list
> anymore. ;-)
Indeed.
Several (definitely more than 5) years ago, there was a presentation (IIRC
even a keynote) at OLS about the hostility of lkml to newcomers.
Bad and good examples were shown. Several attendees couldn't believe
who wrote one of the good examples, as its author was used to be known
for his very harsh emails several years before ;-)
And in the mean time, things have improved even more!
Side note: lots of this use of words is cultural. When I first visited the USA,
I was surprised to never hear anyone use four letter words, unlike in movies
exported from the USA. While these English words had become common in
Europe (at least in Belgium)...
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- ge...@linux-m68k.org
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel. Actually, it *not* clear. Without drawing fine distinctions about the definition of "abusive", I think Linus's rants have a real purpose at times. One is so that *everyone* hears it, not just the immediate target of his ire. I really remember "don't rebase just before sending upstream" precisely because there have been a few explosions on the subject. It's pretty obvious that Linus tries to be entertaining when going over the top, precisely so it's memorable. And it works. But the other thing is that Linux development is big business these days, and many contributors have to justify their time to managers and bean-counters. It makes their lives *easier* if Linus plays "bad cop". I remember a couple of blowups about the state of the ARM tree. I don't think Russell enjoyed it much, but that exchange gave him something to wave in front of his bosses, his contributors, and his contributors' bosses to say that the old sloppy ways had to change. If Linus had limited himself to what was needed to make Russell understand, it would have been all up to him to put pressure on his contributors. That's harder for someone without Linus' unassailable position. Yes, Linus put the nuclear option of not pulling the tree on the table, but the vigor with which he expressed his opinion helped keep him from having to *use* that option to make it clear that he was serious. Linus wasn't just yelling at Russell, but the entire ARM developer population, and being loud enough that everyone heard was a goal. It's an old military command maxim that good news should go through channels, while bad news should come direct from the boss. Linus' rants serve as that kind of "bad news from the top". As he wrote himself during the discussion: > I've told people this before, and I'll tell it again: when I flame > submaintainers, they should try to push the pain down. I'm not really > asking those submaintainers to clean up all the stuff they are > getting: I'm basically asking people to say "no", or at least push > back a lot, and argue with the people who send you code. Tell them > what you don't like about the code, and tell them that you can't take > it any more. There is definitely tension here, but I don't think it's as simple as "you don't need to shout to stop bad code getting into the kernel." Sometimes you *do* need to shout to make people think twice before sending crap upstream. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:51:38AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal > threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread. > But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well. [ comments removed not to give them too much publicity ] (...) Sadly now you see that your friends are here on LKML and that some outsiders are much much worse. You'd probably prefer being criticized by Linus for your design choices than having to ever work with one of the stupid donkeys that wrote the excerpts you published. (...) > Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork. It always happens on public discussions unfortunately. It's the only way they find to feel like they exist. (BTW calling them crazies is an attack to their person and may be contrary to what you'd like to see on this ML, no ?). > It means I now have to book a rental car so I don't have to be on public > transit, and book a hotel room so I don't have to be home. Those > crazies, especially the local Portland SW developer, can easily find my > home address from my blog domain name whois info. There is no reason to fear the stupid who use public places to threaten. It's their moment of glory. After that they go to the toilets and have a 5-to-1 session and they relax. > Being a woman in open source, and speaking out, means I put my personal > safety in jeopardy. I should not have to put up with this. We should > be able to have a private conversation at KS without the court of public > opinion getting involved. However, that's not the way it went, and now > I have to deal with the verbal abuse, sexist statements, and threats > that are the backlash from this thread. That's the risk of launching very sensitive subjects on mailing lists. I don't know if you remembers the era of the trolls, we had almost once a month 7-8 years ago, it was hard to get rid of them. They just started non-tech subjects that always derived into flame wars. Here you started a subject of real concern that merits being discussed about, but which relates more to emotion and culture, and derives the same way. > > Usually sensitive developers would listen the first time they are told. > > It's more of the thick skin developers that push the envelope. But I > > understand, its the "image" that bothers you. > > No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me. > For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll, > Lubin, EVER again. (...) > Telling me my job at Intel is in jeopardy because I'm complaining about > sexist statements is a threat. I was about to comment on the fact that you're 3 from intel who'd better use your private addresses to avoid the image of "intel vs Linus" that some may get but since all your comments have been clean and argumented, there is no reason for anyone sane to consider them inappropriate. Intel would be foolish to fire you when you tried to raise the professional look of the Linux community even if many (including me) disagree. > It's verbal abuse, and I won't take it. > I shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of statements and personal > attacks. Too late, it's done, you must have no regrets and stay firmly in your shoes (and listen to sane people's arguments). > I disagree that we should educate people that Linux really isn't that > harsh. We are technically harsh, and always will be. Linux kernel > developers require perfect code, and perfectly formatted patches. > Setting up mentees to think otherwise is simply not advisable. I disagree. Precisely what the newcomers need is to find their way through the forest of maintainers, reviewers, etc... You can send patches in whatever format, someone will always tell you how to fix this. You'll at least get one nice person taking the time to explain to you. We all experienced this. What needs to be taught to newcomers is how the process works, to ignore the few irrespectful people who will immediately comment on their indentation with harsh words and better wait for the more teaching comments that come later, to take care of every such comments, ask when they don't understand, and repost. The questions I've got from newcomers were along "Have you ever got an e-mail from Linus ? Wow... Have you ever met him ? No ? Strange, are there many people who don't meet ?" etc... They're completely lost because for them this project is almost sci-fi. I try to make them understand that my contribution is very small and non-important and that I'm as dumb as they are so there is no reason they can't participate. Once they can accept that, most of the job is done. The remaining part is to ensure they're not discouraged by the formalities about merge windows, subsystems, -rc, etc. > However, > we can assure them that they won't see harsh _personal_ attacks, and > coach them through dealing with their first harsh attacks against their > _code_. No I prefer to tell
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I > > don't mean in this thread. > > I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal > threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread. > But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well. That's the nastiness of the Internet, a different topic than LKML development. And I don't consider this thread really a LKML thread, as it's about social behavior and nothing about the Linux kernel itself. > > Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia: > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626 > > And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live: > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098 Both are cowardly trolls that didn't post publicly. > > On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel > development, along with more than a few misogynist comments: > > "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered > to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It’s an opt-in community > and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor." > > "You’re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T’so > first to criticize him for his behaviour." > > "Drama Queen" > > "The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over > yourself." > > "shit, just what we need – a bitch running around crying about how hurt > her feelings are." > > "Oy vey you poor goyi…girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that > being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have > done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters > negative views of minorities." > > "This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech > world – because you’re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who > expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily > offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It’s real cute how > you’ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading > against “muh bigotry” and “muh intolerance.” You’re a feminist joke, one > in a very long line." Again, this is the Internet social media, which is not an environment for productivity, but a cesspool of filth. Off topic to what I asked. > > > Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork. And what did you expect? The Internet if filled with assholes. > It means I now have to book a rental car so I don't have to be on public > transit, and book a hotel room so I don't have to be home. Those > crazies, especially the local Portland SW developer, can easily find my > home address from my blog domain name whois info. > > Being a woman in open source, and speaking out, means I put my personal > safety in jeopardy. I should not have to put up with this. We should > be able to have a private conversation at KS without the court of public > opinion getting involved. However, that's not the way it went, and now > I have to deal with the verbal abuse, sexist statements, and threats > that are the backlash from this thread. This is a real issue, but not one that LKML can solve, nor Linus being nicer will have any affect on it. It is the social media and the trolls that live within it. Women, in particular, that fight for social change, bring out the worse of the Internet dung bugs and they cowardly will attack you behind anonymous accounts or private email. You came out swinging at Linus when he mentioned to Greg that he needs to yell at people more. You did that on a public list. I was actually very impressed by your bravery in doing so because I knew (and expected that you knew too) that this will stir up the feces that exists under the Internet shoe. The Internet is a dangerous tool. Like I really think Linus quietly regrets saying "SHUT THE FUCK UP", it was done publicly and you and others have been using it against him. By attacking Linus publicly, will bring out the low life that will attack you. Is that right? No, but it's a reality that you know far too well. But you didn't yell at Linus because you get trolls on your blog and private emails. You yelled at him because you were upset at the way he yells at others thinking that this will keep good people from joining our community. This may be the case, but I asked you, do you get yelled at by kernel developers for your work? And again, not about this thread, because this thread is not technical and has nothing directly to do with Linux. > > > You pointed out a few examples of Linus, and it usually comes from > > someone that should know better being told not to do something, and they > > continue to do it, and then finally Linus blows up. Linus doesn't start > > his cursing at the first email. It takes a few to show that you deserve > > a blow up. >
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture? No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with shit". We need a better pipeline for people who can work together civilly, and still get shit done. I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development, through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women. They slowly get introduced to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists. We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have even more the next round. So deal with it. You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal abuse. If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop. I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I don't mean in this thread. I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread. But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well. Not that I am in any way defending these posts, but does the behavior of outsiders like this in other forums really reflect the LKML attitude? Or does it reflect the fact that there are a lot of people out there who you really do not want to deal with (no matter what the topic) Just about any topic that you take a firm stand on (anything other than pure status-quo), and your stand gets out to as many people as have heard about this thread, is going to generate a LOT of offensive and irrational hate messages. Linus talked about the ongoing abuse he receives earlier in the thread, so it's not just people attacking you. David Lang -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
From: Sarah Sharp Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 07:40:43 -0700 > If you give a flying fuck about diversity ... Pot, meet kettle. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 01:28:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 18:00 +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just > > > to get a wider range of developers. > > > > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion? > > > > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive > > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel. > > Matters what you definition of verbally abusive is. Can I say "your code > is crap!"? I've done that before, and the person I said it to asked me > to explain why it was crap, and I went into detail to why I called it > crap and still think it was crap. > > But I'm not even one to insult people, as that's not my personality. > Well, maybe I've called people "idiot" before. But that usually comes > with someone sticking to an idea when all evidence proves otherwise. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I'm fine with calling _code_ crap (or other forms of poop). I'm fine with someone saying, "Fix this fuck up, RIGHT NOW!" I'm not fine with someone personally attacking a developer and telling them to "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" > Although I'm one of the tame ones on LKML, I still want to reserve my > right to be able to call someone an idiot, if someone is making stupid > ideas and constantly ignores facts that are being presented to them. If they ignore facts from two emails, fine, call them an idiot and drive them off with flames of fire and verbal abuse. But we all need to take the time to explain the facts, politely, without cussing or personal attacks, in the first email to the developer. > Anyway, as I've said several times. Is there a problem here? Besides the > few outbursts from Linus, is there other examples on LKML within the > last year where it is an abusive environment? You really want me to dig up more shit from other developers? I think that's an exercise probably best left to a private discussion at KS. > From what I see, it is > becoming more mellow, and people have been making efforts to listen to > each other. The trend on LKML is going in the right direction, so I'm a > bit curious to why we need to make such an issue of this. Is it just to > make Linus lower his tone a bit? Again, I'll re-emphasize this. I'm not "demanding" that Linus or anyone in this community change their personal style of communication. I'm simply providing incentive for them to change, and asking that they consider changing. I'm asking to have an open discussion about this at KS, away from the public court of opinion. I cannot "manage" personal change. I cannot "force" people to have the will to change. I can only ask politely, and advocate for change. Please don't equate advocating for change with demanding change. Sarah Sharp -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > > > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin > > > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe > > > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture? > > > > No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with > > shit". We need a better pipeline for people who can work together > > civilly, and still get shit done. > > > > I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development, > > through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women. They slowly get introduced > > to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate > > mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel > > mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists. > > We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have > > even more the next round. > > > > So deal with it. You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel > > community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal > > abuse. If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women > > or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop. > > > > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I > don't mean in this thread. I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread. But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well. Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia: https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626 And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live: https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098 On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel development, along with more than a few misogynist comments: "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It’s an opt-in community and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor." "You’re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T’so first to criticize him for his behaviour." "Drama Queen" "The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over yourself." "shit, just what we need – a bitch running around crying about how hurt her feelings are." "Oy vey you poor goyi…girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters negative views of minorities." "This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech world – because you’re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It’s real cute how you’ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading against “muh bigotry” and “muh intolerance.” You’re a feminist joke, one in a very long line." Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork. It means I now have to book a rental car so I don't have to be on public transit, and book a hotel room so I don't have to be home. Those crazies, especially the local Portland SW developer, can easily find my home address from my blog domain name whois info. Being a woman in open source, and speaking out, means I put my personal safety in jeopardy. I should not have to put up with this. We should be able to have a private conversation at KS without the court of public opinion getting involved. However, that's not the way it went, and now I have to deal with the verbal abuse, sexist statements, and threats that are the backlash from this thread. > You pointed out a few examples of Linus, and it usually comes from > someone that should know better being told not to do something, and they > continue to do it, and then finally Linus blows up. Linus doesn't start > his cursing at the first email. It takes a few to show that you deserve > a blow up. > > Usually sensitive developers would listen the first time they are told. > It's more of the thick skin developers that push the envelope. But I > understand, its the "image" that bothers you. No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me. For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll, Lubin, EVER again. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/42482 "You may be seen as a liability by Intel preaching "feminism" on a public forum. From their point of view: will you play the gender card on them. Here is what you did: Instead of realizing that I was being _very_ sympathetic to a more diverse Linux development environment by using the phrase "the old boys club", you
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Luck, Tony wrote: >> Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide >> is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better, >> and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the >> Linux kernel, that demonstrates that suppressing swearing has a >> positive effect in the community, I'd say all you have is an >> *opinion*. > > 1) There isn't going to be any hard evidence - this isn't a physics problem, > or even an engineering problem. It's a social problem. There are no other > collaborative groups sufficiently similar to the Linux kernel community, so > there > are no studies that would be relevant. Asking for the impossible is just a > lame delaying tactic. There is evidence for social problems and their solutions, but anyway, so in fact Sarah doesn't *know* if changing that behavior would be beneficial or detrimental to the project. > 2) Sarah hasn't even asked to cut down on the swearing - so why mention > it at all? Did you even read the thread? She didn't ask, she essentially demanded[1]: > I want everyone (including Linus) to be harsh with code but gentle with > people. Let's call things by their name; Sarah doesn't know if what she wants will help the project, she merely thinks so. It is merely an **opinion**, it is not backed by evidence, and it might be shared by some Linux developers, but it's still just an opinion. Linus already said he is not going to change, so that's that. Now the only thing that remains open is the discussion about better ways to work together, which probably will happen in the kernel summit, but I think it's pretty clear that an official code of conduct that forbids insulting either people or code is out of the question. Cheers. [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58443 -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote: > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody. Depends on details of your definition of abuse. > So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse. > The Oxford dictionary gives me: > > "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way" Insufficient details to tell if the statement above is correct. Insulting and offensive to *whom*? I have seen people making completely revolting statements about e.g. females in general and get extremely insulted when said statements had been described as sexist, no matter how neutral had description been. I have seen people deeply insulted by being told (in absolutely neutral expressions) that recipe they had offered for some task will not do what they said it would, when the simple experiment (reproduced by a lot of people present) would have clearly demonstrated just that. The same people tend to get _really_ insulted when somebody reports the result of said experiment. And anybody who'd been on the net for a year (hell, a month would suffice) can bring a lot more interesting cases... BTW, is it an abuse to describe somebody as a demagogue? -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
> Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide > is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better, > and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the > Linux kernel, that demonstrates that suppressing swearing has a > positive effect in the community, I'd say all you have is an > *opinion*. 1) There isn't going to be any hard evidence - this isn't a physics problem, or even an engineering problem. It's a social problem. There are no other collaborative groups sufficiently similar to the Linux kernel community, so there are no studies that would be relevant. Asking for the impossible is just a lame delaying tactic. 2) Sarah hasn't even asked to cut down on the swearing - so why mention it at all? Did you even read the thread? So I shall (for comedic effect) indulge in my own (uncharacteristic) bit of name calling and dub thee a troll (and every other bad thing that anyone is ever alleged of calling another on LKML, just to be sure). -Tony -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stefano Stabellini wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini >> wrote: >> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote: >> >> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just >> >> to get a wider range of developers. >> > >> > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion? >> >> Can you please stop calling open communication abuse? > > Open communication is one thing, abuse is another, so I agree with you > there. You call it abuse, others don't. >> First you have >> to explain *why* it was improper in order to call it abuse, and in the >> few examples that have been shown, it has been explained that the >> behavior was justified (breaking the #1 rule by a lieutenant who >> should know better). > > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody. > Two wrongs don't make a right. > > So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse. > The Oxford dictionary gives me: > > "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way" Here's another definition from Merriam Webster: * language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily That definition fits my idea of abuse. Linus was not unjust, so it's not abuse. > For example I think that calling somebody a moron qualifies. I don't, specially if the person is indeed being a moron. >> > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive >> > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel. >> >> You can think whatever you want, others have already shown that >> changing the tone of the message in the examples would have changed >> the desired effect. > > I disagree and it is certainly not the case in my experience. Suit yourself. If want you wanted was to voice your opinion, I think you have already done that. -- Felipe Contreras -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:41 -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote: > The big disadvantage is that it leaves out several hundred (or thousdand) > people. I see that as an advantage ;-) We could video tape it for the entertainment value. -- Steve -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Felipe Contreras wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini > wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote: > >> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just > >> to get a wider range of developers. > > > > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion? > > Can you please stop calling open communication abuse? Open communication is one thing, abuse is another, so I agree with you there. > First you have > to explain *why* it was improper in order to call it abuse, and in the > few examples that have been shown, it has been explained that the > behavior was justified (breaking the #1 rule by a lieutenant who > should know better). Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody. Two wrongs don't make a right. So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse. The Oxford dictionary gives me: "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way" For example I think that calling somebody a moron qualifies. > > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive > > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel. > > You can think whatever you want, others have already shown that > changing the tone of the message in the examples would have changed > the desired effect. I disagree and it is certainly not the case in my experience. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:00:46PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > to get a wider range of developers.
>
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
No.
> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.
At the risk of sounding pedantic... The above is true *and* irrelevant
as stated, and any attempts to read it in less irrelevant way result
in statements that are absolutely non-obvious and very likely false.
* some amount of bad code will be getting into the kernel, in
any scenario short of complete cessation of development
* there certainly are ways to prevent any given bad code from
getting into the kernel, once you have identified it. Even leaving
aside completely ridiculous ones ("after WW3 nobody will push that into
the tree", etc.), one can always watch all trees for specific code and
refuse to pull if it has slipped in.
* "once you have identified it" part of the above is essential
and does not scale.
In other words, it's not "can we stop it from happening", it's "how
much will be slippling in with given setup". And _this_ is where your
position becomes completely unfounded. It's not at all clear that
vague alternatives being proposed will *not* result in more crap getting
in.
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
