Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
> Daryll> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:34:59PM -0500, David Feuer wrote: > >> For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same > >> impression when I just see the word "dangerous". > > Daryll> Why not call a spade a spade and label it BROKEN. I do think > Daryll> that's stronger than DANGEROUS. > > I doubt it will make any difference whatever we write. I have seen > several times how users enable every single option because 'they don't > want to miss out on anything'. It's at the order of someone with a > Macintosh enabling something labelled "Atari internal serial port > support" (theoretical example, no offense). How about reversed? The option comes enabled by default, but the coding is change to fit this below: NTFS support [*] disable ntfs write support But after reading other comments, having it be a forced mount r/w is better. (just like I have to force other FS to be mounted r/o instead of default r/w) -- Lab tests show that use of micro$oft causes cancer in lab animals - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
> "Daryll" == Daryll Strauss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Daryll> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:34:59PM -0500, David Feuer wrote: >> For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same >> impression when I just see the word "dangerous". Daryll> Why not call a spade a spade and label it BROKEN. I do think Daryll> that's stronger than DANGEROUS. I doubt it will make any difference whatever we write. I have seen several times how users enable every single option because 'they don't want to miss out on anything'. It's at the order of someone with a Macintosh enabling something labelled "Atari internal serial port support" (theoretical example, no offense). Jes - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
> You could just tell people the truth. Something far worse that DANGEROUS. > Like: > > CRIPPLED BY LEGAL DURESS > > Or as I come to understand: > > The processes that would normally have fixed this driver by now > are broken by the vigorous defense of Microsoft's IP. > It will trash your disk! maybe not right now .. > > I couldn't understand why I hadn't seen any real movement on this driver. > Now it makes sense. Perhaps others might enjoy this understanding. This one is a must !! Let's put it in the kernel conf. Xav - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Daryll" == Daryll Strauss [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Daryll On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:34:59PM -0500, David Feuer wrote: For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same impression when I just see the word "dangerous". Daryll Why not call a spade a spade and label it BROKEN. I do think Daryll that's stronger than DANGEROUS. I doubt it will make any difference whatever we write. I have seen several times how users enable every single option because 'they don't want to miss out on anything'. It's at the order of someone with a Macintosh enabling something labelled "Atari internal serial port support" (theoretical example, no offense). Jes - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Daryll On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:34:59PM -0500, David Feuer wrote: For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same impression when I just see the word "dangerous". Daryll Why not call a spade a spade and label it BROKEN. I do think Daryll that's stronger than DANGEROUS. I doubt it will make any difference whatever we write. I have seen several times how users enable every single option because 'they don't want to miss out on anything'. It's at the order of someone with a Macintosh enabling something labelled "Atari internal serial port support" (theoretical example, no offense). How about reversed? The option comes enabled by default, but the coding is change to fit this below: M NTFS support [*] disable ntfs write support But after reading other comments, having it be a forced mount r/w is better. (just like I have to force other FS to be mounted r/o instead of default r/w) -- Lab tests show that use of micro$oft causes cancer in lab animals - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Alvord) said: [...] > If this was a business, and we were knowingly distributing software > that was known to be dangerous, we would probably be risking legal > action. Debatable. It is marked EXPERIMENTAL and DANGEROUS, and not enabled by default. > Why are we distributing such severely broken software? Heck, we seem > reluctant to include reiserfs, a pretty high quality, supported file > system. And we continue to distribute this !@#$%... There must be some > strange agenda going on to limit the use of Linux. It is just that NTFS has been in the kernel for ages, and rotted. Nobody has taken the time to remove it (would be a lot less than what has been wasted up to now discussing the matter here...). -- Horst von Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Casilla 9G, Vin~a del Mar, Chile +56 32 672616 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Alvord) said: [...] If this was a business, and we were knowingly distributing software that was known to be dangerous, we would probably be risking legal action. Debatable. It is marked EXPERIMENTAL and DANGEROUS, and not enabled by default. Why are we distributing such severely broken software? Heck, we seem reluctant to include reiserfs, a pretty high quality, supported file system. And we continue to distribute this !@#$%... There must be some strange agenda going on to limit the use of Linux. It is just that NTFS has been in the kernel for ages, and rotted. Nobody has taken the time to remove it (would be a lot less than what has been wasted up to now discussing the matter here...). -- Horst von Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Casilla 9G, Vin~a del Mar, Chile +56 32 672616 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Ren Haddock wrote: > I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled > DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking > off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say > 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' DANGEROUS == GO_FOR_IT_DUMB_ARSE_SCREW_YOURSELF_WILDLY This is the intent, when I put and started the DANGEROUS settings. Because the volitale nature of extreme alpha code in the beginning. However as time passed, people did not think it had meaning, but that is what it orginally was defined by me. This is UNIX, and to quote one of HPA's signatures, "unix gives you enough rope to hang yourself" My personal favorite: You are going to shoot yourself in the head, aim carefully! How well you aim determines if you get a second chance! Cheers, Andre Hedrick CTO Timpanogas Research Group EVP Linux Development, TRG Linux ATA Development PS: for the pc language crowd, note that I use "arse"!!! - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, 09 Dec 2000 21:34:59 -0500, David Feuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >At 08:12 PM 12/9/2000 -0600, Rene wrote: >>I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled >>DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking >>off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say >>'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' >> >>The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which >>leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. > >For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same >impression when I just see the word "dangerous". If this was a business, and we were knowingly distributing software that was known to be dangerous, we would probably be risking legal action. Why are we distributing such severely broken software? Heck, we seem reluctant to include reiserfs, a pretty high quality, supported file system. And we continue to distribute this !@#$%... There must be some strange agenda going on to limit the use of Linux. john alvord - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:34:59PM -0500, David Feuer wrote: > At 08:12 PM 12/9/2000 -0600, Rene wrote: > >I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled > >DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking > >off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say > >'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' > > > >The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which > >leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. > > For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same > impression when I just see the word "dangerous". Why not call a spade a spade and label it BROKEN. I do think that's stronger than DANGEROUS. - |Daryll - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
At 08:12 PM 12/9/2000 -0600, Rene wrote: >I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled >DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking >off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say >'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' > >The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which >leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same impression when I just see the word "dangerous". -- This message has been brought to you by the letter alpha and the number pi. Open Source: Think locally; act globally. David Feuer [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. Just my thoughts, Rene On Dec 08, Alan Cox wrote: > > Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. > > I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, > what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:38:03AM +0100, willy tarreau wrote: > > Perhaps we should more generally display a line at > boot > telling if there were EXPERIMENTAL or DANGEROUS code > compiled in the kernel. > Good idea. Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
> Alan has spoken. If DANGEROUS doesn't get their > attention, what will? Jeff, I know that, but I was speaking about people who use these features while they don't know they're dangerous just because someone else has compiled the kernel for them. There are people who claim to know linux better than anyone and consider they are better than anyone at making kernels or distros. these people are dangerous for people who trust them blindly. In this case, a warning at mount time may save ignorant victims. Perhaps we should more generally display a line at boot telling if there were EXPERIMENTAL or DANGEROUS code compiled in the kernel. I myself have built kernels with NTFS R/W enabled a long time ago to try to recover a crashed NT (bad dll). as a chance, I've never gave those kernels to anyone, but it may have been possible that I accidentely reuse the boot disk for something else ... Willy ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Pour dialoguer en direct avec vos amis, Yahoo! Messenger : http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:03:22PM -0700, Eric W. Biederman wrote: > "Jeff V. Merkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hmm. If this is the case then shouldn't someone point this out. To the > antitrust lawyers. You present this as a clear case of deliberately > preventing interoperability between NT and linux. > > The generous side of me suggests that they might be trying to fix some > mistakes, or enhance things. Linux isn't standing still on the fs > format issue either. > > Eric I think the anitrust issues are moot -- they have had their way already with Microsoft. They've been left beaten and crippled in the eyes of the general public. Large Customers seem to not be swallowing .NET. Their behavior is inconsistent with the Trial Judge's ruling. Technically, by pursuing .NET, they are not observing the spirit of the ruling. If you get a ruling put on you by a court, you are supposed to observe what it says and correct your behavior, even if the execution order was stayed by the court pending appeal. The Judge did not set aside the ruling -- it's still there. Because of this, any investment in Microsoft strategies by large enterprise customers are an unknown until the appeals court makes a determination. Microsoft is also setting itself up for a contempt order by doing this. The trial court told them to stay out of the internet business with their operating systems business unit. Their compliance has been illusionary with the court's ruling, and unless the appeals court vacates the ruling, they could be in big trouble. If I were the DOJ, I would already be putting together an OFC for filing with the trial court. They are also doing the worst possible thing you can do while a case is on appeal, which is to ignore the trial court's rulings, and resorting to character assisination of the trial judge. Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Jeff V. Merkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:00:29PM +, Alan Cox wrote: > > > Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > > > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > > > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > > > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > > > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > > > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. > > > > I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read > manuals, > > > what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. > > We should put in a nastier message then. It WILL DESTROY DATA IRREPARABLY > and I've got even more bad news -- because it's in Linux, Microsoft is already > altering the on-disk structures again, so it's about to be broken in R/O > mode as well when Whistler comes out. Hmm. If this is the case then shouldn't someone point this out. To the antitrust lawyers. You present this as a clear case of deliberately preventing interoperability between NT and linux. The generous side of me suggests that they might be trying to fix some mistakes, or enhance things. Linux isn't standing still on the fs format issue either. Eric - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:49:00PM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote: Alan has spoken. If DANGEROUS doesn't get their attention, what will? Jeff > One problem with warnings at compile time is that in many cases, administrators > use kernels provided by friends or collegues that "know linux better than them". > If an admin uses a kernel in which write support has been activated to mount > an NTFS file system without providing any option, he will get it mount R/W > without any warning, then may destroy it at the first mistake or so. > > perhaps we should add an option such as "force" to mount an NTFS r/w, and as > suggested by JBG, print a KERN_EMERG message when attempting to mount it r/w > without the "force" option. > > we could also add a static counter which will make the first r/w mount always > fail, to ensure people will read the message, and which would prevent people > from mounting r/w from fstab. > > just my $0.02. > > BTW, I like the message about microsoft preventing from fixing the driver ;-) > > Cheers, > Willy > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:49:00PM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote: > One problem with warnings at compile time is that in many cases, administrators > use kernels provided by friends or collegues that "know linux better than them". > If an admin uses a kernel in which write support has been activated to mount > an NTFS file system without providing any option, he will get it mount R/W > without any warning, then may destroy it at the first mistake or so. > > perhaps we should add an option such as "force" to mount an NTFS r/w, and as > suggested by JBG, print a KERN_EMERG message when attempting to mount it r/w > without the "force" option. > > we could also add a static counter which will make the first r/w mount always > fail, to ensure people will read the message, and which would prevent people > from mounting r/w from fstab. > > just my $0.02. > > BTW, I like the message about microsoft preventing from fixing the driver ;-) :-) I can fix it in 14 months. Jeff > > Cheers, > Willy > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
One problem with warnings at compile time is that in many cases, administrators use kernels provided by friends or collegues that "know linux better than them". If an admin uses a kernel in which write support has been activated to mount an NTFS file system without providing any option, he will get it mount R/W without any warning, then may destroy it at the first mistake or so. perhaps we should add an option such as "force" to mount an NTFS r/w, and as suggested by JBG, print a KERN_EMERG message when attempting to mount it r/w without the "force" option. we could also add a static counter which will make the first r/w mount always fail, to ensure people will read the message, and which would prevent people from mounting r/w from fstab. just my $0.02. BTW, I like the message about microsoft preventing from fixing the driver ;-) Cheers, Willy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
One problem with warnings at compile time is that in many cases, administrators use kernels provided by friends or collegues that "know linux better than them". If an admin uses a kernel in which write support has been activated to mount an NTFS file system without providing any option, he will get it mount R/W without any warning, then may destroy it at the first mistake or so. perhaps we should add an option such as "force" to mount an NTFS r/w, and as suggested by JBG, print a KERN_EMERG message when attempting to mount it r/w without the "force" option. we could also add a static counter which will make the first r/w mount always fail, to ensure people will read the message, and which would prevent people from mounting r/w from fstab. just my $0.02. BTW, I like the message about microsoft preventing from fixing the driver ;-) Cheers, Willy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:49:00PM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote: One problem with warnings at compile time is that in many cases, administrators use kernels provided by friends or collegues that "know linux better than them". If an admin uses a kernel in which write support has been activated to mount an NTFS file system without providing any option, he will get it mount R/W without any warning, then may destroy it at the first mistake or so. perhaps we should add an option such as "force" to mount an NTFS r/w, and as suggested by JBG, print a KERN_EMERG message when attempting to mount it r/w without the "force" option. we could also add a static counter which will make the first r/w mount always fail, to ensure people will read the message, and which would prevent people from mounting r/w from fstab. just my $0.02. BTW, I like the message about microsoft preventing from fixing the driver ;-) :-) I can fix it in 14 months. Jeff Cheers, Willy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:49:00PM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote: Alan has spoken. If DANGEROUS doesn't get their attention, what will? Jeff One problem with warnings at compile time is that in many cases, administrators use kernels provided by friends or collegues that "know linux better than them". If an admin uses a kernel in which write support has been activated to mount an NTFS file system without providing any option, he will get it mount R/W without any warning, then may destroy it at the first mistake or so. perhaps we should add an option such as "force" to mount an NTFS r/w, and as suggested by JBG, print a KERN_EMERG message when attempting to mount it r/w without the "force" option. we could also add a static counter which will make the first r/w mount always fail, to ensure people will read the message, and which would prevent people from mounting r/w from fstab. just my $0.02. BTW, I like the message about microsoft preventing from fixing the driver ;-) Cheers, Willy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:03:22PM -0700, Eric W. Biederman wrote: "Jeff V. Merkey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmm. If this is the case then shouldn't someone point this out. To the antitrust lawyers. You present this as a clear case of deliberately preventing interoperability between NT and linux. The generous side of me suggests that they might be trying to fix some mistakes, or enhance things. Linux isn't standing still on the fs format issue either. Eric I think the anitrust issues are moot -- they have had their way already with Microsoft. They've been left beaten and crippled in the eyes of the general public. Large Customers seem to not be swallowing .NET. Their behavior is inconsistent with the Trial Judge's ruling. Technically, by pursuing .NET, they are not observing the spirit of the ruling. If you get a ruling put on you by a court, you are supposed to observe what it says and correct your behavior, even if the execution order was stayed by the court pending appeal. The Judge did not set aside the ruling -- it's still there. Because of this, any investment in Microsoft strategies by large enterprise customers are an unknown until the appeals court makes a determination. Microsoft is also setting itself up for a contempt order by doing this. The trial court told them to stay out of the internet business with their operating systems business unit. Their compliance has been illusionary with the court's ruling, and unless the appeals court vacates the ruling, they could be in big trouble. If I were the DOJ, I would already be putting together an OFC for filing with the trial court. They are also doing the worst possible thing you can do while a case is on appeal, which is to ignore the trial court's rulings, and resorting to character assisination of the trial judge. Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Alan has spoken. If DANGEROUS doesn't get their attention, what will? Jeff, I know that, but I was speaking about people who use these features while they don't know they're dangerous just because someone else has compiled the kernel for them. There are people who claim to know linux better than anyone and consider they are better than anyone at making kernels or distros. these people are dangerous for people who trust them blindly. In this case, a warning at mount time may save ignorant victims. Perhaps we should more generally display a line at boot telling if there were EXPERIMENTAL or DANGEROUS code compiled in the kernel. I myself have built kernels with NTFS R/W enabled a long time ago to try to recover a crashed NT (bad dll). as a chance, I've never gave those kernels to anyone, but it may have been possible that I accidentely reuse the boot disk for something else ... Willy ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Pour dialoguer en direct avec vos amis, Yahoo! Messenger : http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:38:03AM +0100, willy tarreau wrote: Perhaps we should more generally display a line at boot telling if there were EXPERIMENTAL or DANGEROUS code compiled in the kernel. Good idea. Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. Just my thoughts, Rene On Dec 08, Alan Cox wrote: Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
At 08:12 PM 12/9/2000 -0600, Rene wrote: I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same impression when I just see the word "dangerous". -- This message has been brought to you by the letter alpha and the number pi. Open Source: Think locally; act globally. David Feuer [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:34:59PM -0500, David Feuer wrote: At 08:12 PM 12/9/2000 -0600, Rene wrote: I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same impression when I just see the word "dangerous". Why not call a spade a spade and label it BROKEN. I do think that's stronger than DANGEROUS. - |Daryll - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, 09 Dec 2000 21:34:59 -0500, David Feuer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:12 PM 12/9/2000 -0600, Rene wrote: I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' The 'DANGEROUS' label seems to suggest that it -may- destroy data, which leads to the 'it won't happen to me' mentality. For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with this. I have the same impression when I just see the word "dangerous". If this was a business, and we were knowingly distributing software that was known to be dangerous, we would probably be risking legal action. Why are we distributing such severely broken software? Heck, we seem reluctant to include reiserfs, a pretty high quality, supported file system. And we continue to distribute this !@#$%... There must be some strange agenda going on to limit the use of Linux. john alvord - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Ren Haddock wrote: I think part of the problem is that there are other things labeled DANGEROUS that actually do work fairly reliably (offhand, I'm thinking off the IDE config stuff..). Perhaps it needs to explicitely say 'This is broken and is gauranteed to destroy your data. Do not use it' DANGEROUS == GO_FOR_IT_DUMB_ARSE_SCREW_YOURSELF_WILDLY This is the intent, when I put and started the DANGEROUS settings. Because the volitale nature of extreme alpha code in the beginning. However as time passed, people did not think it had meaning, but that is what it orginally was defined by me. This is UNIX, and to quote one of HPA's signatures, "unix gives you enough rope to hang yourself" My personal favorite: You are going to shoot yourself in the head, aim carefully! How well you aim determines if you get a second chance! Cheers, Andre Hedrick CTO Timpanogas Research Group EVP Linux Development, TRG Linux ATA Development PS: for the pc language crowd, note that I use "arse"!!! - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
>I agree that if you give a mentally unbalanced person a firearm, they might >shoot themselves with it. I am suggesting we take away their firearm. Write >support for NTFS is useful for migrating from Linux to NT, R/O support is >useful for migrating NT to Linux. We won't be giving anything up. I think >just putting in a nastier warning message would suffice. > >Jeff You could just tell people the truth. Something far worse that DANGEROUS. Like: CRIPPLED BY LEGAL DURESS Or as I come to understand: The processes that would normally have fixed this driver by now are broken by the vigorous defense of Microsoft's IP. It will trash your disk! maybe not right now .. I couldn't understand why I hadn't seen any real movement on this driver. Now it makes sense. Perhaps others might enjoy this understanding. Mark - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:42:45PM -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote: > "Jeff V. Merkey" wrote: > > We don't need any messages. If (DANGEROUS) is not sufficient, then > disable the feature unconditionally. Someone hacking on the code will > be smart enough to enable the stuff while they are debugging. > > Jeff > You guys make the call. I will be here to catch the 100+ messages that would normally be posting to the kernel list with "Linux destroyed my data", and I have been handling them. I am just alerting you guys that the numbers of people needing this are increasing, which is an indication more and more people are using Linux to migrate NT to Linux, and vice-versa, and getting themselves into trouble. We need to brainstorm a more long term solution for this problem. I suspect if I post these tools on our FTP server for free download, MS will promptly show up with attorneys. Normally, this is what I would do, but these tools were developed via access to MS IP, and so long as I am helping MS customers recover data in a "consulting" capacity, I do not believe they will interfere, particularly since everytime this happens, Linux gets a great big black eye with the affected customer. But very soon (like after 2.4 ships) the numbers of folks needing this may increase to a capacity I cannot support properly without dumping these tools into general distribution -- then the shit will hit the fan with MS if I do this. :-) Jeff > -- > Jeff Garzik | > Building 1024 | These are not the J's you're lookin' for. > MandrakeSoft| It's an old Jedi mind trick. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Jeff V. Merkey" wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:00:29PM +, Alan Cox wrote: > > > Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > > > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > > > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > > > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > > > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > > > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. > > > > I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, > > what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. > > We should put in a nastier message then. It WILL DESTROY DATA IRREPARABLY > and I've got even more bad news -- because it's in Linux, Microsoft is already > altering the on-disk structures again, so it's about to be broken in R/O > mode as well when Whistler comes out. We don't need any messages. If (DANGEROUS) is not sufficient, then disable the feature unconditionally. Someone hacking on the code will be smart enough to enable the stuff while they are debugging. Jeff -- Jeff Garzik | Building 1024 | These are not the J's you're lookin' for. MandrakeSoft| It's an old Jedi mind trick. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:55:43PM +, Alan Cox wrote: > > somewhere in the thousands. Is NTFS write stable enough now in 2.4 to > > fix these problems, if so, can we DISABLE by REMOVING write code in the > > It says DANGEROUS in big letters on the configuration option. We are now > down to the level of people who don't understand 'smoking kills you' in big > letters on packaging, and people using very old trees that merely warned you > that it was a very bad idea I agree that if you give a mentally unbalanced person a firearm, they might shoot themselves with it. I am suggesting we take away their firearm. Write support for NTFS is useful for migrating from Linux to NT, R/O support is useful for migrating NT to Linux. We won't be giving anything up. I think just putting in a nastier warning message would suffice. Jeff > > Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:00:29PM +, Alan Cox wrote: > > Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. > > I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, > what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. We should put in a nastier message then. It WILL DESTROY DATA IRREPARABLY and I've got even more bad news -- because it's in Linux, Microsoft is already altering the on-disk structures again, so it's about to be broken in R/O mode as well when Whistler comes out. :-) Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:34:09PM +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: [...] > Maybe that can prevent pupils^H^H^H^H^Heople from shooting their > foots... Nothing can "prevent" them from shooting themselves in the foot, even taking away their guns and ammunition (removing it from the kernel) is rarely sufficient for the really skillfull and determined foot shooters (they want it, they'll patch it back in and complain about the inconvenience). We can make it more difficult and make sure they understand that it's a self inflicted injury when it happens to them, but we can not prevent it. Application Programmers Saying: "Software development is a race between software engineers who are attempting to create fool proof programs and the Universe which is attempting to create bigger and better fools." Software Engineers Saying: "So far, the Universe is winning." > MfG, JBG > > -- > Fehler eingestehen, Größe zeigen: Nehmt die Rechtschreibreform zurück!!! > /* Jan-Benedict Glaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- +49-177-5601720 */ > keyID=0x8399E1BB fingerprint=250D 3BCF 7127 0D8C A444 A961 1DBD 5E75 8399 E1BB > "insmod vi.o and there we go..." (Alexander Viro on linux-kernel) Mike -- Michael H. Warfield| (770) 985-6132 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Mad Wizard) | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/ NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471| possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: > They'd prolly blast through it without reading (You don't think they > read teh MS agreement when istalling windows do you?) but I bet we > could argue that they accepted the agreement to protect us. tristate 'NTFS file system support (read only)' CONFIG_NTFS_FS dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_NTFS_FS $CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL if [ "$CONFIG_NTFS_RW" = "y" ] ; then string ' Enter the magic text to really enable NTFS write' CONFIG_NTFS_MAGICTEXT fi #ifdef CONFIG_NTFS_RW #if CONFIG_NTFS_MAGICTEXT != "I know it will eat my filesystem" #error you got the magic text wrong #endif #endif -- dwmw2 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Rik van Riel wrote: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Alan Cox wrote: > > > I am very firmly against removing something because people do > > not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. > > I must say I like the CONFIG_MORON though. By setting that the > (l)user exposes his true identity and leaves little for us to > doubt ;) > > Added to the Patch of the Month page as suggested by David > Weinehall: > > http://www.surriel.com/potm/ > > regards, > Question. Which of the following files will first be executed if found in a distribution? Script started on Fri Dec 8 09:34:17 2000 # pwd /DANGER/DANGER/DANGER # ls -la total 3128 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Dec 8 09:34 . drwxrwxrwx 3 root root 4096 Dec 8 09:32 .. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 corruption -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 death -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:32 do_not_execute -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 this_can_break_your_machine -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 this_is_harmful # exit exit Script done on Fri Dec 8 09:34:39 2000 Answer; Anything that looks exciting. I'd go for death, but the less bold might try corruption first. Things that are only harmful get no attention at all. In the 'olden' days, stuff in /sbin was considered off-limits without the explicit written documentation at hand (Try to partition a hard- disk under Ultrix). When asked; "Do you want to write (Y/N)?", the answers were not Y/N! You had to look in the documentation and find that the only way to commit the write was by typing "Yes, absolutely, positively!" This helped keep the learners from destroying their systems. Cheers, Dick Johnson Penguin : Linux version 2.4.0 on an i686 machine (799.54 BogoMips). "Memory is like gasoline. You use it up when you are running. Of course you get it all back when you reboot..."; Actual explanation obtained from the Micro$oft help desk. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
You know, couldn't we do something like prompting the (l)user with an disclaimer/agreement or something when selecting the option or maybe even when doing a make dep? They'd prolly blast through it without reading (You don't think they read teh MS agreement when istalling windows do you?) but I bet we could argue that they accepted the agreement to protect us. Rik: I got a little diff happy ;-P --- index.html.old Fri Dec 8 09:35:58 2000 +++ index.html Fri Dec 8 09:38:03 2000 @@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ If you spot a gem that's suitable for placement on this page, please mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mail me. -Rik van Riel, feb 11 2000 +Rik van Riel, dec 08 2000 Back to surriel.com @@ -31,14 +31,14 @@ -April 2000: fs/Config.in by +December 2000: fs/Config.in by Peter Samuelson. +June 2000: kernel/sys.c patch by +Dominik Rothert. April 2000: drivers/block/floppy.c by Tim Waugh. February 2000: mm/swapfile.c patch by Aaron Botsis. -June 2000: kernel/sys.c patch by -Dominik Rothert. On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Rik van Riel wrote: > I must say I like the CONFIG_MORON though. By setting that the > (l)user exposes his true identity and leaves little for us to > doubt ;) > > Added to the Patch of the Month page as suggested by David > Weinehall: > > http://www.surriel.com/potm/ > -- = Mohammad A. Haque http://www.haque.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Project Lead Don't drink and derive." --Unknown http://wm.themes.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] = - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:43:42PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote: > On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:19:46AM -0500, David Relson wrote: > > At 11:54 PM 12/7/00, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: > No amount of warnings can prevent morons from f**king up. Unix gives > you enough rope et al. I'm not arguing for removal of any warning, but > seriously, if we have a loud (DANGEROUS) warning in the config-system > aand a warning in the help-text that the write-support probably will > mess up your fs, how much more can you do? I bet that if we remove the Well, simply insert sth. like this into ./fs/ntfs/fs.c:parse_options() printk(KERN_EMERG "You're likely to crash your NTFS if you do any " "write attempts to it. NTFS write support is broken and for " "developers *only*. Do only use this if you're debugging it, " "never ever use this on data you'd like to see tomorrow " "again!!! Please remount in read-only mode *now* or don't " "complain afterwards!"); Maybe that can prevent pupils^H^H^H^H^Heople from shooting their foots... MfG, JBG -- Fehler eingestehen, Größe zeigen: Nehmt die Rechtschreibreform zurück!!! /* Jan-Benedict Glaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- +49-177-5601720 */ keyID=0x8399E1BB fingerprint=250D 3BCF 7127 0D8C A444 A961 1DBD 5E75 8399 E1BB "insmod vi.o and there we go..." (Alexander Viro on linux-kernel) PGP signature
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Alan Cox wrote: > I am very firmly against removing something because people do > not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. I must say I like the CONFIG_MORON though. By setting that the (l)user exposes his true identity and leaves little for us to doubt ;) Added to the Patch of the Month page as suggested by David Weinehall: http://www.surriel.com/potm/ regards, Rik -- Hollywood goes for world dumbination, Trailer at 11. http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com.br/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
> Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
> somewhere in the thousands. Is NTFS write stable enough now in 2.4 to > fix these problems, if so, can we DISABLE by REMOVING write code in the It says DANGEROUS in big letters on the configuration option. We are now down to the level of people who don't understand 'smoking kills you' in big letters on packaging, and people using very old trees that merely warned you that it was a very bad idea Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:19:46AM -0500, David Relson wrote: > At 11:54 PM 12/7/00, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: > > > >Linux today monitors this list. Some public education may be the best > >route. How do we post a security advisory warning people that will get > >posted? I'm sure folks see the DANGEROUS comments, but they don't seem > >to stick in their heads. Then they get themselves into trouble, and > >fortunately for them, I'm around. I am just concerned about the scope > >of the black eye that will just keep getting bigger and bigger for Linux > >NTFS. > > > FWIW, Mandrake Linux includes a tool MandrakeUpdate which allows > downloading of "Normal Updates" or "Development Updates". If you chose > Devel Upd, you get the following warning: > > Caution ! These packages are NOT well tested. > You really can screw up your system > by installing them. > > Perhaps the configure tools could recognize a DANGEROUS status (or keyword > or ???) and would display such a message ... No amount of warnings can prevent morons from f**king up. Unix gives you enough rope et al. I'm not arguing for removal of any warning, but seriously, if we have a loud (DANGEROUS) warning in the config-system aand a warning in the help-text that the write-support probably will mess up your fs, how much more can you do? I bet that if we remove the config-option, people will still enable it manually, then go "Wa, your stupid kernel messed up my filesystem, Linux sucks!" But I kind of liked the Enable write support (DANGEROUS) Really enable write support (DANGEROUS) Are you f**king nuts?! approach anyway. A strong candidate for Rik van Riel's patch-of-the-month homepage. /David _ _ // David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> /> Northern lights wander \\ // Project MCA Linux hacker// Dance across the winter sky // \> http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
At 11:54 PM 12/7/00, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: >Linux today monitors this list. Some public education may be the best >route. How do we post a security advisory warning people that will get >posted? I'm sure folks see the DANGEROUS comments, but they don't seem >to stick in their heads. Then they get themselves into trouble, and >fortunately for them, I'm around. I am just concerned about the scope >of the black eye that will just keep getting bigger and bigger for Linux >NTFS. FWIW, Mandrake Linux includes a tool MandrakeUpdate which allows downloading of "Normal Updates" or "Development Updates". If you chose Devel Upd, you get the following warning: Caution ! These packages are NOT well tested. You really can screw up your system by installing them. Perhaps the configure tools could recognize a DANGEROUS status (or keyword or ???) and would display such a message ... David - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
At 11:54 PM 12/7/00, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: Linux today monitors this list. Some public education may be the best route. How do we post a security advisory warning people that will get posted? I'm sure folks see the DANGEROUS comments, but they don't seem to stick in their heads. Then they get themselves into trouble, and fortunately for them, I'm around. I am just concerned about the scope of the black eye that will just keep getting bigger and bigger for Linux NTFS. FWIW, Mandrake Linux includes a tool MandrakeUpdate which allows downloading of "Normal Updates" or "Development Updates". If you chose Devel Upd, you get the following warning: Caution ! These packages are NOT well tested. You really can screw up your system by installing them. Perhaps the configure tools could recognize a DANGEROUS status (or keyword or ???) and would display such a message ... David - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:19:46AM -0500, David Relson wrote: At 11:54 PM 12/7/00, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: Linux today monitors this list. Some public education may be the best route. How do we post a security advisory warning people that will get posted? I'm sure folks see the DANGEROUS comments, but they don't seem to stick in their heads. Then they get themselves into trouble, and fortunately for them, I'm around. I am just concerned about the scope of the black eye that will just keep getting bigger and bigger for Linux NTFS. FWIW, Mandrake Linux includes a tool MandrakeUpdate which allows downloading of "Normal Updates" or "Development Updates". If you chose Devel Upd, you get the following warning: Caution ! These packages are NOT well tested. You really can screw up your system by installing them. Perhaps the configure tools could recognize a DANGEROUS status (or keyword or ???) and would display such a message ... No amount of warnings can prevent morons from f**king up. Unix gives you enough rope et al. I'm not arguing for removal of any warning, but seriously, if we have a loud (DANGEROUS) warning in the config-system aand a warning in the help-text that the write-support probably will mess up your fs, how much more can you do? I bet that if we remove the config-option, people will still enable it manually, then go "Wa, your stupid kernel messed up my filesystem, Linux sucks!" But I kind of liked the Enable write support (DANGEROUS) Really enable write support (DANGEROUS) Are you f**king nuts?! approach anyway. A strong candidate for Rik van Riel's patch-of-the-month homepage. /David _ _ // David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] / Northern lights wander \\ // Project MCA Linux hacker// Dance across the winter sky // \ http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao// Full colour fire / - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
somewhere in the thousands. Is NTFS write stable enough now in 2.4 to fix these problems, if so, can we DISABLE by REMOVING write code in the It says DANGEROUS in big letters on the configuration option. We are now down to the level of people who don't understand 'smoking kills you' in big letters on packaging, and people using very old trees that merely warned you that it was a very bad idea Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Alan Cox wrote: I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. I must say I like the CONFIG_MORON though. By setting that the (l)user exposes his true identity and leaves little for us to doubt ;) Added to the Patch of the Month page as suggested by David Weinehall: http://www.surriel.com/potm/ regards, Rik -- Hollywood goes for world dumbination, Trailer at 11. http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com.br/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:43:42PM +0100, David Weinehall wrote: On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 08:19:46AM -0500, David Relson wrote: At 11:54 PM 12/7/00, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: No amount of warnings can prevent morons from f**king up. Unix gives you enough rope et al. I'm not arguing for removal of any warning, but seriously, if we have a loud (DANGEROUS) warning in the config-system aand a warning in the help-text that the write-support probably will mess up your fs, how much more can you do? I bet that if we remove the Well, simply insert sth. like this into ./fs/ntfs/fs.c:parse_options() printk(KERN_EMERG "You're likely to crash your NTFS if you do any " "write attempts to it. NTFS write support is broken and for " "developers *only*. Do only use this if you're debugging it, " "never ever use this on data you'd like to see tomorrow " "again!!! Please remount in read-only mode *now* or don't " "complain afterwards!"); Maybe that can prevent pupils^H^H^H^H^Heople from shooting their foots... MfG, JBG -- Fehler eingestehen, Größe zeigen: Nehmt die Rechtschreibreform zurück!!! /* Jan-Benedict Glaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +49-177-5601720 */ keyID=0x8399E1BB fingerprint=250D 3BCF 7127 0D8C A444 A961 1DBD 5E75 8399 E1BB "insmod vi.o and there we go..." (Alexander Viro on linux-kernel) PGP signature
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
You know, couldn't we do something like prompting the (l)user with an disclaimer/agreement or something when selecting the option or maybe even when doing a make dep? They'd prolly blast through it without reading (You don't think they read teh MS agreement when istalling windows do you?) but I bet we could argue that they accepted the agreement to protect us. Rik: I got a little diff happy ;-P --- index.html.old Fri Dec 8 09:35:58 2000 +++ index.html Fri Dec 8 09:38:03 2000 @@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ pIf you spot a gem that's suitable for placement on this page, please a href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"mail me/a. -paddressRik van Riel, feb 11 2000/address +paddressRik van Riel, dec 08 2000/address table width=100%tr tda href="/"Back to surriel.com/a @@ -31,14 +31,14 @@ hr ul -liApril 2000: a href="dec2000.shtml"fs/Config.in/a by +liDecember 2000: a href="dec2000.shtml"fs/Config.in/a by Peter Samuelson. +liJune 2000: a href="jun2000.shtml"kernel/sys.c patch/a by +Dominik Rothert. liApril 2000: a href="apr2000.shtml"drivers/block/floppy.c/a by Tim Waugh. liFebruary 2000: a href="feb2000.shtml"mm/swapfile.c patch/a by Aaron Botsis. -liJune 2000: a href="jun2000.shtml"kernel/sys.c patch/a by -Dominik Rothert. /ul /body On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Rik van Riel wrote: I must say I like the CONFIG_MORON though. By setting that the (l)user exposes his true identity and leaves little for us to doubt ;) Added to the Patch of the Month page as suggested by David Weinehall: http://www.surriel.com/potm/ -- = Mohammad A. Haque http://www.haque.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Project Lead Don't drink and derive." --Unknown http://wm.themes.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] = - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Rik van Riel wrote: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Alan Cox wrote: I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. I must say I like the CONFIG_MORON though. By setting that the (l)user exposes his true identity and leaves little for us to doubt ;) Added to the Patch of the Month page as suggested by David Weinehall: http://www.surriel.com/potm/ regards, Question. Which of the following files will first be executed if found in a distribution? Script started on Fri Dec 8 09:34:17 2000 # pwd /DANGER/DANGER/DANGER # ls -la total 3128 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Dec 8 09:34 . drwxrwxrwx 3 root root 4096 Dec 8 09:32 .. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 corruption -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 death -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:32 do_not_execute -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 this_can_break_your_machine -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 634503 Dec 8 09:33 this_is_harmful # exit exit Script done on Fri Dec 8 09:34:39 2000 Answer; Anything that looks exciting. I'd go for death, but the less bold might try corruption first. Things that are only harmful get no attention at all. In the 'olden' days, stuff in /sbin was considered off-limits without the explicit written documentation at hand (Try to partition a hard- disk under Ultrix). When asked; "Do you want to write (Y/N)?", the answers were not Y/N! You had to look in the documentation and find that the only way to commit the write was by typing "Yes, absolutely, positively!" This helped keep the learners from destroying their systems. Cheers, Dick Johnson Penguin : Linux version 2.4.0 on an i686 machine (799.54 BogoMips). "Memory is like gasoline. You use it up when you are running. Of course you get it all back when you reboot..."; Actual explanation obtained from the Micro$oft help desk. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: They'd prolly blast through it without reading (You don't think they read teh MS agreement when istalling windows do you?) but I bet we could argue that they accepted the agreement to protect us. tristate 'NTFS file system support (read only)' CONFIG_NTFS_FS dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_NTFS_FS $CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL if [ "$CONFIG_NTFS_RW" = "y" ] ; then string ' Enter the magic text to really enable NTFS write' CONFIG_NTFS_MAGICTEXT fi #ifdef CONFIG_NTFS_RW #if CONFIG_NTFS_MAGICTEXT != "I know it will eat my filesystem" #error you got the magic text wrong #endif #endif -- dwmw2 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:34:09PM +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: [...] Maybe that can prevent pupils^H^H^H^H^Heople from shooting their foots... Nothing can "prevent" them from shooting themselves in the foot, even taking away their guns and ammunition (removing it from the kernel) is rarely sufficient for the really skillfull and determined foot shooters (they want it, they'll patch it back in and complain about the inconvenience). We can make it more difficult and make sure they understand that it's a self inflicted injury when it happens to them, but we can not prevent it. Application Programmers Saying: "Software development is a race between software engineers who are attempting to create fool proof programs and the Universe which is attempting to create bigger and better fools." Software Engineers Saying: "So far, the Universe is winning." MfG, JBG -- Fehler eingestehen, Größe zeigen: Nehmt die Rechtschreibreform zurück!!! /* Jan-Benedict Glaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +49-177-5601720 */ keyID=0x8399E1BB fingerprint=250D 3BCF 7127 0D8C A444 A961 1DBD 5E75 8399 E1BB "insmod vi.o and there we go..." (Alexander Viro on linux-kernel) Mike -- Michael H. Warfield| (770) 985-6132 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Mad Wizard) | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/ NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471| possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Jeff V. Merkey" wrote: On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:00:29PM +, Alan Cox wrote: Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. We should put in a nastier message then. It WILL DESTROY DATA IRREPARABLY and I've got even more bad news -- because it's in Linux, Microsoft is already altering the on-disk structures again, so it's about to be broken in R/O mode as well when Whistler comes out. We don't need any messages. If (DANGEROUS) is not sufficient, then disable the feature unconditionally. Someone hacking on the code will be smart enough to enable the stuff while they are debugging. Jeff -- Jeff Garzik | Building 1024 | These are not the J's you're lookin' for. MandrakeSoft| It's an old Jedi mind trick. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:00:29PM +, Alan Cox wrote: Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. I am very firmly against removing something because people do not read manuals, what is next fdisk , mkfs ?. We should put in a nastier message then. It WILL DESTROY DATA IRREPARABLY and I've got even more bad news -- because it's in Linux, Microsoft is already altering the on-disk structures again, so it's about to be broken in R/O mode as well when Whistler comes out. :-) Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 12:42:45PM -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote: "Jeff V. Merkey" wrote: We don't need any messages. If (DANGEROUS) is not sufficient, then disable the feature unconditionally. Someone hacking on the code will be smart enough to enable the stuff while they are debugging. Jeff You guys make the call. I will be here to catch the 100+ messages that would normally be posting to the kernel list with "Linux destroyed my data", and I have been handling them. I am just alerting you guys that the numbers of people needing this are increasing, which is an indication more and more people are using Linux to migrate NT to Linux, and vice-versa, and getting themselves into trouble. We need to brainstorm a more long term solution for this problem. I suspect if I post these tools on our FTP server for free download, MS will promptly show up with attorneys. Normally, this is what I would do, but these tools were developed via access to MS IP, and so long as I am helping MS customers recover data in a "consulting" capacity, I do not believe they will interfere, particularly since everytime this happens, Linux gets a great big black eye with the affected customer. But very soon (like after 2.4 ships) the numbers of folks needing this may increase to a capacity I cannot support properly without dumping these tools into general distribution -- then the shit will hit the fan with MS if I do this. :-) Jeff -- Jeff Garzik | Building 1024 | These are not the J's you're lookin' for. MandrakeSoft| It's an old Jedi mind trick. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
I agree that if you give a mentally unbalanced person a firearm, they might shoot themselves with it. I am suggesting we take away their firearm. Write support for NTFS is useful for migrating from Linux to NT, R/O support is useful for migrating NT to Linux. We won't be giving anything up. I think just putting in a nastier warning message would suffice. Jeff You could just tell people the truth. Something far worse that DANGEROUS. Like: CRIPPLED BY LEGAL DURESS Or as I come to understand: The processes that would normally have fixed this driver by now are broken by the vigorous defense of Microsoft's IP. It will trash your disk! maybe not right now .. I couldn't understand why I hadn't seen any real movement on this driver. Now it makes sense. Perhaps others might enjoy this understanding. Mark - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Peter Samuelson wrote:" > [Michael Warfield] > > This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. > > It's live and active only through three acts of commision. > > We could make it *four* acts of commission. (: (: (: > > diff -urk~ fs/Config.in > --- fs/Config.in~ Mon Nov 13 01:43:42 2000 > +++ fs/Config.in Thu Dec 7 23:00:34 2000 > @@ -37,7 +37,8 @@ > tristate 'Minix fs support' CONFIG_MINIX_FS > > tristate 'NTFS file system support (read only)' CONFIG_NTFS_FS > -dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_NTFS_FS >$CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL > +dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_MORON $CONFIG_NTFS_FS >$CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL > +dep_bool 'Are you sure? I hope you dont care about your NTFS filesystems' >CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_MORON > > tristate 'OS/2 HPFS file system support' CONFIG_HPFS_FS Of course, you know that it *WILL NOT* work as CONFIG_MORON is nowhere defined ... ? Andrzej -- === Andrzej M. Krzysztofowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (48)(58) 347 14 61 Faculty of Applied Phys. & Math., Technical University of Gdansk - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[Michael Warfield] > This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. > It's live and active only through three acts of commision. We could make it *four* acts of commission. (: (: (: diff -urk~ fs/Config.in --- fs/Config.in~ Mon Nov 13 01:43:42 2000 +++ fs/Config.inThu Dec 7 23:00:34 2000 @@ -37,7 +37,8 @@ tristate 'Minix fs support' CONFIG_MINIX_FS tristate 'NTFS file system support (read only)' CONFIG_NTFS_FS -dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_NTFS_FS $CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL +dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_MORON $CONFIG_NTFS_FS +$CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL +dep_bool 'Are you sure? I hope you dont care about your NTFS filesystems' +CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_MORON tristate 'OS/2 HPFS file system support' CONFIG_HPFS_FS - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Michael H. Warfield" wrote: > > Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. > > Huh? > > How disabled do you want it. It can't even be enabled unless > you enabled experimental code options. Then, it's disabled by default > and you first have to enable the R/O NTFS. Then you have to explicitly > select the option to enable RW access that is clearly labeled DANGEROUS. > This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. It's > live and active only through three acts of commision. > > About the only thing left, short of removing it from the kernel > entirely, is to make the option a hidden control option, like some of the > debugging options, that requires editing a header file or a Makefile to > enable. Is that what you are looking for? > Linux today monitors this list. Some public education may be the best route. How do we post a security advisory warning people that will get posted? I'm sure folks see the DANGEROUS comments, but they don't seem to stick in their heads. Then they get themselves into trouble, and fortunately for them, I'm around. I am just concerned about the scope of the black eye that will just keep getting bigger and bigger for Linux NTFS. :-) Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:43:24PM -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: > Peter Samuelson wrote: > > > > [Jeff Merkey] > > > Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need > > > to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know > > > are busted. > > Here's an idea: let's make r/w support a separate CONFIG option, and > > label it "DANGEROUS". > > Oh wait, we already do that. > > Perhaps we should warn users to back up their NTFS partitions before > > trying this option. Put that warning in the help text for > > CONFIG_NTFS_RW. > > Oh wait, we already do that too. > > How stupid does one have to be in order to enable an option labeled > > "DANGEROUS" for a non-experimental system? > Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs > (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start > charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a > lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of > copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of > our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. Huh? How disabled do you want it. It can't even be enabled unless you enabled experimental code options. Then, it's disabled by default and you first have to enable the R/O NTFS. Then you have to explicitly select the option to enable RW access that is clearly labeled DANGEROUS. This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. It's live and active only through three acts of commision. About the only thing left, short of removing it from the kernel entirely, is to make the option a hidden control option, like some of the debugging options, that requires editing a header file or a Makefile to enable. Is that what you are looking for? > Jeff > Jeff > > > > Peter Mike -- Michael H. Warfield| (770) 985-6132 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Mad Wizard) | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/ NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471| possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Peter Samuelson wrote: > > [Jeff Merkey] > > Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need > > to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know > > are busted. > > Here's an idea: let's make r/w support a separate CONFIG option, and > label it "DANGEROUS". > > Oh wait, we already do that. > > Perhaps we should warn users to back up their NTFS partitions before > trying this option. Put that warning in the help text for > CONFIG_NTFS_RW. > > Oh wait, we already do that too. > > How stupid does one have to be in order to enable an option labeled > "DANGEROUS" for a non-experimental system? Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits > 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. Jeff Jeff > > Peter - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[Jeff Merkey] > Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need > to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know > are busted. Here's an idea: let's make r/w support a separate CONFIG option, and label it "DANGEROUS". Oh wait, we already do that. Perhaps we should warn users to back up their NTFS partitions before trying this option. Put that warning in the help text for CONFIG_NTFS_RW. Oh wait, we already do that too. How stupid does one have to be in order to enable an option labeled "DANGEROUS" for a non-experimental system? Peter - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Linux/Linus/Anton/Alan, I am still sending out the NTFS repair tools for Linux trashed volumes, and I've lost count now relative to how many I've sent out, but it's somewhere in the thousands. Is NTFS write stable enough now in 2.4 to fix these problems, if so, can we DISABLE by REMOVING write code in the VFS tables for those versions in other trees we know will trash people's drives. I am sending out over 100 copies a week now (I could make a business out of fixing NTFS drives trashed by Linux) and the numbers are getting higher instead of lower of people asking for these tools, which woul indicate more people's data is getting trashed. Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know are busted. I enjoy helping NT customers get their data back and helping with this problem, but at some point, the NTFS driver either needs to get sync'd or WRITE disabled. What I'm doing here is like trying to put a bandaid over the mouth of the amazon river, and as Linux grows and grows and grows, this problem will just get larger, and to a point where I don't have the bandwidth to support it properly. I will keep providing this service, but I am only treating the symptons of the illness and not curing the patient. Based upon the level of contamination of TRG with Microsoft IP, I have been advised if I post an NTFS replacement before the 18 month doctrine of inevitability "window" is past, Microsoft will most certainly sue us, and win. I strongly recommend stubbing our the file_write() calls in the NTFS VFS until this gets fixed, until I can get working NTFS out there, or Anton can get one out there (which will be another year and a half if it comes from us based on the agreements we have with Microsoft). :-) Jeff I have been using a PC which dual boots Linux/NT. Linux seems to have trashed the ntfs partition when it ran out of space while writing to it. The partition is data only but was not backed up. A search on the net indicated that this is a common problem and that you may be able to point me at or provide tools which could help repair the partition. I would be grateful for any help, Lynn -- Lynn Evans Department of Earth Sciences P.O. Box 28E Monash University Melbourne, VIC 3800 Australia Phone +61 (3) 9905 1527 Fax +61 (3) 9905 4903 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Linux/Linus/Anton/Alan, I am still sending out the NTFS repair tools for Linux trashed volumes, and I've lost count now relative to how many I've sent out, but it's somewhere in the thousands. Is NTFS write stable enough now in 2.4 to fix these problems, if so, can we DISABLE by REMOVING write code in the VFS tables for those versions in other trees we know will trash people's drives. I am sending out over 100 copies a week now (I could make a business out of fixing NTFS drives trashed by Linux) and the numbers are getting higher instead of lower of people asking for these tools, which woul indicate more people's data is getting trashed. Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know are busted. I enjoy helping NT customers get their data back and helping with this problem, but at some point, the NTFS driver either needs to get sync'd or WRITE disabled. What I'm doing here is like trying to put a bandaid over the mouth of the amazon river, and as Linux grows and grows and grows, this problem will just get larger, and to a point where I don't have the bandwidth to support it properly. I will keep providing this service, but I am only treating the symptons of the illness and not curing the patient. Based upon the level of contamination of TRG with Microsoft IP, I have been advised if I post an NTFS replacement before the 18 month doctrine of inevitability "window" is past, Microsoft will most certainly sue us, and win. I strongly recommend stubbing our the file_write() calls in the NTFS VFS until this gets fixed, until I can get working NTFS out there, or Anton can get one out there (which will be another year and a half if it comes from us based on the agreements we have with Microsoft). :-) Jeff I have been using a PC which dual boots Linux/NT. Linux seems to have trashed the ntfs partition when it ran out of space while writing to it. The partition is data only but was not backed up. A search on the net indicated that this is a common problem and that you may be able to point me at or provide tools which could help repair the partition. I would be grateful for any help, Lynn -- Lynn Evans Department of Earth Sciences P.O. Box 28E Monash University Melbourne, VIC 3800 Australia Phone +61 (3) 9905 1527 Fax +61 (3) 9905 4903 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[Jeff Merkey] Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know are busted. Here's an idea: let's make r/w support a separate CONFIG option, and label it "DANGEROUS". Oh wait, we already do that. Perhaps we should warn users to back up their NTFS partitions before trying this option. Put that warning in the help text for CONFIG_NTFS_RW. Oh wait, we already do that too. How stupid does one have to be in order to enable an option labeled "DANGEROUS" for a non-experimental system? Peter - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
Peter Samuelson wrote: [Jeff Merkey] Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know are busted. Here's an idea: let's make r/w support a separate CONFIG option, and label it "DANGEROUS". Oh wait, we already do that. Perhaps we should warn users to back up their NTFS partitions before trying this option. Put that warning in the help text for CONFIG_NTFS_RW. Oh wait, we already do that too. How stupid does one have to be in order to enable an option labeled "DANGEROUS" for a non-experimental system? Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. Jeff Jeff Peter - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:43:24PM -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: Peter Samuelson wrote: [Jeff Merkey] Do folks not know this NTFS driver will trash hard drives? We need to alert folks DO NOT USE WRITE NTFS MODE in those versions we know are busted. Here's an idea: let's make r/w support a separate CONFIG option, and label it "DANGEROUS". Oh wait, we already do that. Perhaps we should warn users to back up their NTFS partitions before trying this option. Put that warning in the help text for CONFIG_NTFS_RW. Oh wait, we already do that too. How stupid does one have to be in order to enable an option labeled "DANGEROUS" for a non-experimental system? Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. Huh? How disabled do you want it. It can't even be enabled unless you enabled experimental code options. Then, it's disabled by default and you first have to enable the R/O NTFS. Then you have to explicitly select the option to enable RW access that is clearly labeled DANGEROUS. This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. It's live and active only through three acts of commision. About the only thing left, short of removing it from the kernel entirely, is to make the option a hidden control option, like some of the debugging options, that requires editing a header file or a Makefile to enable. Is that what you are looking for? Jeff Jeff Peter Mike -- Michael H. Warfield| (770) 985-6132 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Mad Wizard) | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/ NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471| possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Michael H. Warfield" wrote: Agree. We need to disable it, since folks do not read the docs (obviously). Of course, we could leave it on, and I could start charging money for these tools -- there's little doubt it would be a lucrative business. Perhaps this is what I'll do if the numbers of copies keeps growing. When it hits 100 per week, it's taking a lot of our time to support, so I will have to start charging for it. Huh? How disabled do you want it. It can't even be enabled unless you enabled experimental code options. Then, it's disabled by default and you first have to enable the R/O NTFS. Then you have to explicitly select the option to enable RW access that is clearly labeled DANGEROUS. This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. It's live and active only through three acts of commision. About the only thing left, short of removing it from the kernel entirely, is to make the option a hidden control option, like some of the debugging options, that requires editing a header file or a Makefile to enable. Is that what you are looking for? Linux today monitors this list. Some public education may be the best route. How do we post a security advisory warning people that will get posted? I'm sure folks see the DANGEROUS comments, but they don't seem to stick in their heads. Then they get themselves into trouble, and fortunately for them, I'm around. I am just concerned about the scope of the black eye that will just keep getting bigger and bigger for Linux NTFS. :-) Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
[Michael Warfield] This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. It's live and active only through three acts of commision. We could make it *four* acts of commission. (: (: (: diff -urk~ fs/Config.in --- fs/Config.in~ Mon Nov 13 01:43:42 2000 +++ fs/Config.inThu Dec 7 23:00:34 2000 @@ -37,7 +37,8 @@ tristate 'Minix fs support' CONFIG_MINIX_FS tristate 'NTFS file system support (read only)' CONFIG_NTFS_FS -dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_NTFS_FS $CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL +dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_MORON $CONFIG_NTFS_FS +$CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL +dep_bool 'Are you sure? I hope you dont care about your NTFS filesystems' +CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_MORON tristate 'OS/2 HPFS file system support' CONFIG_HPFS_FS - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Fwd: NTFS repair tools]
"Peter Samuelson wrote:" [Michael Warfield] This thing is not armed and dangerous due to an act of ommision. It's live and active only through three acts of commision. We could make it *four* acts of commission. (: (: (: diff -urk~ fs/Config.in --- fs/Config.in~ Mon Nov 13 01:43:42 2000 +++ fs/Config.in Thu Dec 7 23:00:34 2000 @@ -37,7 +37,8 @@ tristate 'Minix fs support' CONFIG_MINIX_FS tristate 'NTFS file system support (read only)' CONFIG_NTFS_FS -dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_NTFS_FS $CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL +dep_mbool ' NTFS write support (DANGEROUS)' CONFIG_MORON $CONFIG_NTFS_FS $CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL +dep_bool 'Are you sure? I hope you dont care about your NTFS filesystems' CONFIG_NTFS_RW $CONFIG_MORON tristate 'OS/2 HPFS file system support' CONFIG_HPFS_FS Of course, you know that it *WILL NOT* work as CONFIG_MORON is nowhere defined ... ? Andrzej -- === Andrzej M. Krzysztofowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (48)(58) 347 14 61 Faculty of Applied Phys. Math., Technical University of Gdansk - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
