Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: and this one: http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/uml/patches/2.6.18-rc4/uml-x11-fb which applied cleanly, but is not letting me set the option - Kconfig is beyond me: arch/um/Kconfig:144:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_FILLRECT' arch/um/Kconfig:145:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_COPYAREA' arch/um/Kconfig:146:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_IMAGEBLIT' Try adding source "drivers/video/Kconfig" to arch/um/Kconfig. Ahh, thanks for that, it did the trick. I also needed to add this to include/asm-um/pgtable.h: #define io_remap_pfn_range(vma, vaddr, pfn, size, prot) \ remap_pfn_range(vma, vaddr, pfn, size, prot) And replace config.h with autoconf.h in arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c Then I hit: arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:include/linux/input.h:1168: more undefined references to `input_event' follow So I added: "select INPUT" to Kconfig (starting with a defconfig might have done the trick too) Then I hit: arch/um/drivers/built-in.o: In function `x11_probe': arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c:442: undefined reference to `init_input_dev' So I replaced: init_input_dev(kd->mouse); with: kd->mouse = input_allocate_device(); That gave me a working kernel, but no x11 window appeared (I tried adding x11=640x480 to the command line too - no effect) I then tried this patch: http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/work/current/2.6/2.6.21-rc1/patches/x11-fb (fixing similar issues) I had to comment out the line containing "soft_cursor" (couldn't figure out where to get it from) It also required a lot of search and replace to change all instances of: kd->mouse.XXX to kd->mouse->XXX (same for kbd and changes to the initialization code) Looks like the CONFIG_FB_CFB_FILLRECT and friends should not be set: LD .tmp_vmlinux1 drivers/built-in.o: In function `cfb_copyarea': drivers/video/cfbcopyarea.c:344: multiple definition of `cfb_copyarea' arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:arch/um/drivers/../../../drivers/video/cfbcopyarea.c:344: first defined here drivers/built-in.o: In function `cfb_imageblit': drivers/video/cfbimgblt.c:263: multiple definition of `cfb_imageblit' arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:arch/um/drivers/../../../drivers/video/cfbimgblt.c:263: first defined here drivers/built-in.o: In function `cfb_fillrect': drivers/video/cfbfillrect.c:345: multiple definition of `cfb_fillrect' arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:arch/um/drivers/../../../drivers/video/cfbfillrect.c:345: Finally, this one pops up an X11 window, but it dies instantly: [...] Checking syscall emulation patch for ptrace...missing Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. kref_get (kref=0x5a5a5a5a5a5a5aa6) at lib/kref.c:32 32 WARN_ON(!atomic_read(>refcount)); (gdb) bt #0 kref_get (kref=0x5a5a5a5a5a5a5aa6) at lib/kref.c:32 #1 0x600f4aa2 in kobject_get (kobj=0x5a5a5a5a5a5a5a8a) at lib/kobject.c:394 #2 0x60109a95 in class_get (cls=) at include/linux/kobject.h:145 #3 0x6010a3e5 in class_device_add (class_dev=0x602c9b38) at drivers/base/class.c:594 #4 0x6010ff5d in input_register_device (dev=0x602c9488) at drivers/input/input.c:987 #5 0x6001ed60 in x11_probe () at arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c:482 #6 0x6000444d in x11_init () at arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c:504 #7 0x600015a6 in do_initcalls () at init/main.c:651 #8 0x60001690 in do_basic_setup () at init/main.c:695 #9 0x6000f9ce in init (unused=) at init/main.c:744 #10 0x600241ca in run_kernel_thread (fn=0x6000f985 , arg=0x0, jmp_ptr=) at arch/um/os-Linux/process.c:289 #11 0x600149b8 in new_thread_handler () at arch/um/kernel/skas/process.c:64 #12 0xa55a5a5a5a5a5a5a in ?? () #13 0x602bd100 in ?? () #14 0x60205f40 in ident_map () #15 0x in ?? () And I am now completely out of my depth! Antoine Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: > and this one: > http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/uml/patches/2.6.18-rc4/uml-x11-fb > which applied cleanly, but is not letting me set the option - Kconfig is > beyond me: > > arch/um/Kconfig:144:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to > undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_FILLRECT' > arch/um/Kconfig:145:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to > undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_COPYAREA' > arch/um/Kconfig:146:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to > undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_IMAGEBLIT' Try adding source "drivers/video/Kconfig" to arch/um/Kconfig. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: and this one: http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/uml/patches/2.6.18-rc4/uml-x11-fb which applied cleanly, but is not letting me set the option - Kconfig is beyond me: arch/um/Kconfig:144:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_FILLRECT' arch/um/Kconfig:145:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_COPYAREA' arch/um/Kconfig:146:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_IMAGEBLIT' Try adding source drivers/video/Kconfig to arch/um/Kconfig. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: and this one: http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/uml/patches/2.6.18-rc4/uml-x11-fb which applied cleanly, but is not letting me set the option - Kconfig is beyond me: arch/um/Kconfig:144:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_FILLRECT' arch/um/Kconfig:145:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_COPYAREA' arch/um/Kconfig:146:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_IMAGEBLIT' Try adding source drivers/video/Kconfig to arch/um/Kconfig. Ahh, thanks for that, it did the trick. I also needed to add this to include/asm-um/pgtable.h: #define io_remap_pfn_range(vma, vaddr, pfn, size, prot) \ remap_pfn_range(vma, vaddr, pfn, size, prot) And replace config.h with autoconf.h in arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c Then I hit: arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:include/linux/input.h:1168: more undefined references to `input_event' follow So I added: select INPUT to Kconfig (starting with a defconfig might have done the trick too) Then I hit: arch/um/drivers/built-in.o: In function `x11_probe': arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c:442: undefined reference to `init_input_dev' So I replaced: init_input_dev(kd-mouse); with: kd-mouse = input_allocate_device(); That gave me a working kernel, but no x11 window appeared (I tried adding x11=640x480 to the command line too - no effect) I then tried this patch: http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/work/current/2.6/2.6.21-rc1/patches/x11-fb (fixing similar issues) I had to comment out the line containing soft_cursor (couldn't figure out where to get it from) It also required a lot of search and replace to change all instances of: kd-mouse.XXX to kd-mouse-XXX (same for kbd and changes to the initialization code) Looks like the CONFIG_FB_CFB_FILLRECT and friends should not be set: LD .tmp_vmlinux1 drivers/built-in.o: In function `cfb_copyarea': drivers/video/cfbcopyarea.c:344: multiple definition of `cfb_copyarea' arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:arch/um/drivers/../../../drivers/video/cfbcopyarea.c:344: first defined here drivers/built-in.o: In function `cfb_imageblit': drivers/video/cfbimgblt.c:263: multiple definition of `cfb_imageblit' arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:arch/um/drivers/../../../drivers/video/cfbimgblt.c:263: first defined here drivers/built-in.o: In function `cfb_fillrect': drivers/video/cfbfillrect.c:345: multiple definition of `cfb_fillrect' arch/um/drivers/built-in.o:arch/um/drivers/../../../drivers/video/cfbfillrect.c:345: Finally, this one pops up an X11 window, but it dies instantly: [...] Checking syscall emulation patch for ptrace...missing Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. kref_get (kref=0x5a5a5a5a5a5a5aa6) at lib/kref.c:32 32 WARN_ON(!atomic_read(kref-refcount)); (gdb) bt #0 kref_get (kref=0x5a5a5a5a5a5a5aa6) at lib/kref.c:32 #1 0x600f4aa2 in kobject_get (kobj=0x5a5a5a5a5a5a5a8a) at lib/kobject.c:394 #2 0x60109a95 in class_get (cls=value optimized out) at include/linux/kobject.h:145 #3 0x6010a3e5 in class_device_add (class_dev=0x602c9b38) at drivers/base/class.c:594 #4 0x6010ff5d in input_register_device (dev=0x602c9488) at drivers/input/input.c:987 #5 0x6001ed60 in x11_probe () at arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c:482 #6 0x6000444d in x11_init () at arch/um/drivers/x11_kern.c:504 #7 0x600015a6 in do_initcalls () at init/main.c:651 #8 0x60001690 in do_basic_setup () at init/main.c:695 #9 0x6000f9ce in init (unused=value optimized out) at init/main.c:744 #10 0x600241ca in run_kernel_thread (fn=0x6000f985 init, arg=0x0, jmp_ptr=value optimized out) at arch/um/os-Linux/process.c:289 #11 0x600149b8 in new_thread_handler () at arch/um/kernel/skas/process.c:64 #12 0xa55a5a5a5a5a5a5a in ?? () #13 0x602bd100 in ?? () #14 0x60205f40 in ident_map () #15 0x in ?? () And I am now completely out of my depth! Antoine Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Antoine Martin wrote: Jeff Dike wrote: On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:22:00PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. I have Gerd's patch sitting in my tree, but it's never really worked for me, so I haven't pushed it. Yep, I tried them and it didn't work for me either, I'll try again though. I did try again, and I found this patch: http://dl.bytesex.org/patches/uml-2.6.11/uml-x11-fb Which applied (2 rejects by hand), but failed with "Mapping memory: Cannot allocate memory" in mmap64: os_map_memory [...] at arch/um/os-Linux/process.c:164 and this one: http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/uml/patches/2.6.18-rc4/uml-x11-fb which applied cleanly, but is not letting me set the option - Kconfig is beyond me: arch/um/Kconfig:144:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_FILLRECT' arch/um/Kconfig:145:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_COPYAREA' arch/um/Kconfig:146:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_IMAGEBLIT' So that's a non-starter for me... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 10:28:40AM +0200, roland wrote: > what is the real advantage to package uml-kernel and rootfs into a single > file ? > > If this needs to be distributed with additional script, that's two files, > anyway. If a common means of doing this were widespread, the script would be distributed separately (probably with the uml utilities). Analagous to the way bootloaders are separate from linux on real hardware. That way, the distributor of a virtual machine would only distribute that single system image. The user would boot it using the script according to his own host environment. Jason - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Blaisorblade wrote: On lunedì 2 aprile 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, Hmm... for that to be completely plug-and-play you need to make sure a dhcp server on the host exists. Vmware runs a separate DHCP server exactly for this, even if we should avoid that as much as possible. It is trivial to write a shell script that takes care of setting up the interface and checks for the presence of a dhcp server. (the dhcpd.conf can be generated easily) The problem lies with the configuration options, I have got a bunch of shell scripts to take care of that, but it is quite hard to make them suitable for global consumption by the average user: * even with just tap networking, I use 4 different ways of hooking them up the outside world * firewalling and mac address filtering * bridging issues and ebtables * tmpfs and memory issues * selinux and chrooting issues... etc... [snip] although it stopped working for me ages ago (probably for some UML bug). I built a Mandrake image (that I now lost) with Xnest configured. With a script on the host which passes the host IP and that calls xhost, it should work easily. And btw, we need a standard startup script anyway. It would work, but it's not a pretty solution, it requires customizations to the guest and it would not be intuitive to new users. I would much prefer the ability to just run any distro (even framebuffer based ones) without modifications using the virtual framebuffer. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Why not one management UI running from the host, a-la vmware? Yes ,that was what I had in mind. Possibly, with as much code as possible in scripting languages, for better transparency. Definitely, (see above) The management tools I have written export the guests' settings to the filesystem in the form of a shell script file, all the utility scripts just read those settings and do their stuff. (all in simple shell) Antoine Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On lunedì 2 aprile 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: > Jeff Dike wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: > >> I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the > >> user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. > > > > Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you > > don't have now. > > Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, Hmm... for that to be completely plug-and-play you need to make sure a dhcp server on the host exists. Vmware runs a separate DHCP server exactly for this, even if we should avoid that as much as possible. > it would allow users > to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without > understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. > We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, > which is why they download ready-made images. What about installing and pre-configuring Xnest on the image? With a suitable script calling xhost on the host, it just works. This project did it: http://umlbuilder.sourceforge.net/ although it stopped working for me ages ago (probably for some UML bug). I built a Mandrake image (that I now lost) with Xnest configured. With a script on the host which passes the host IP and that calls xhost, it should work easily. And btw, we need a standard startup script anyway. > It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, > hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Why not one management UI running from the host, a-la vmware? Possibly, with as much code as possible in scripting languages, for better transparency. > Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image > with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE > installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb > without risking your dev environment, etc... > > Antoine -- Inform me of my mistakes, so I can add them to my list! Paolo Giarrusso, aka Blaisorblade http://www.user-mode-linux.org/~blaisorblade - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
what is the real advantage to package uml-kernel and rootfs into a single file ? If this needs to be distributed with additional script, that's two files, anyway. the classical way would be 3 files: uml-kernel, rootfs, script - put into some tar.gz or tar.bz2 this could look as elegant like: linux-2.6.21-UML-TryMe-and-RunMe-Kit.tar.bz2 linux-2.6.21-start.sh (containing ./linux-2.6.21-kernel-um ubd0=linux-2.6.21-rootfs.) linux-2.6.21-kernel-um linux-2.6.21-rootfs regards roland ps: I've done the converse: package the uml kernel within the rootfs image, and use a script that plays the part of bootloader. With ext2 at least, it's fairly easy to use the debugfs 'cat' command for this. wicked, though! :) On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 05:44:34PM -0400, Jeff Dike wrote: There are sites (http://uml.nagafix.co.uk/ being the best one I know of) where, with two downloads, two uncompressions, and one command line later, you have a booted UML. The only way I know of to improve on this, aside from inprovements in the booted distro, is to package the filesystem as a rootfs within the UML kernel binary. I've considered this, but haven't done anything with it. I've done the converse: package the uml kernel within the rootfs image, and use a script that plays the part of bootloader. With ext2 at least, it's fairly easy to use the debugfs 'cat' command for this. That way, you simply distribute the fs image with a companion script that can boot any number of such images. Jason - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
what is the real advantage to package uml-kernel and rootfs into a single file ? If this needs to be distributed with additional script, that's two files, anyway. the classical way would be 3 files: uml-kernel, rootfs, script - put into some tar.gz or tar.bz2 this could look as elegant like: linux-2.6.21-UML-TryMe-and-RunMe-Kit.tar.bz2 linux-2.6.21-start.sh (containing ./linux-2.6.21-kernel-um ubd0=linux-2.6.21-rootfs.) linux-2.6.21-kernel-um linux-2.6.21-rootfs regards roland ps: I've done the converse: package the uml kernel within the rootfs image, and use a script that plays the part of bootloader. With ext2 at least, it's fairly easy to use the debugfs 'cat' command for this. wicked, though! :) On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 05:44:34PM -0400, Jeff Dike wrote: There are sites (http://uml.nagafix.co.uk/ being the best one I know of) where, with two downloads, two uncompressions, and one command line later, you have a booted UML. The only way I know of to improve on this, aside from inprovements in the booted distro, is to package the filesystem as a rootfs within the UML kernel binary. I've considered this, but haven't done anything with it. I've done the converse: package the uml kernel within the rootfs image, and use a script that plays the part of bootloader. With ext2 at least, it's fairly easy to use the debugfs 'cat' command for this. That way, you simply distribute the fs image with a companion script that can boot any number of such images. Jason - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On lunedì 2 aprile 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, Hmm... for that to be completely plug-and-play you need to make sure a dhcp server on the host exists. Vmware runs a separate DHCP server exactly for this, even if we should avoid that as much as possible. it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, which is why they download ready-made images. What about installing and pre-configuring Xnest on the image? With a suitable script calling xhost on the host, it just works. This project did it: http://umlbuilder.sourceforge.net/ although it stopped working for me ages ago (probably for some UML bug). I built a Mandrake image (that I now lost) with Xnest configured. With a script on the host which passes the host IP and that calls xhost, it should work easily. And btw, we need a standard startup script anyway. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Why not one management UI running from the host, a-la vmware? Possibly, with as much code as possible in scripting languages, for better transparency. Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine -- Inform me of my mistakes, so I can add them to my list! Paolo Giarrusso, aka Blaisorblade http://www.user-mode-linux.org/~blaisorblade - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Blaisorblade wrote: On lunedì 2 aprile 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, Hmm... for that to be completely plug-and-play you need to make sure a dhcp server on the host exists. Vmware runs a separate DHCP server exactly for this, even if we should avoid that as much as possible. It is trivial to write a shell script that takes care of setting up the interface and checks for the presence of a dhcp server. (the dhcpd.conf can be generated easily) The problem lies with the configuration options, I have got a bunch of shell scripts to take care of that, but it is quite hard to make them suitable for global consumption by the average user: * even with just tap networking, I use 4 different ways of hooking them up the outside world * firewalling and mac address filtering * bridging issues and ebtables * tmpfs and memory issues * selinux and chrooting issues... etc... [snip] although it stopped working for me ages ago (probably for some UML bug). I built a Mandrake image (that I now lost) with Xnest configured. With a script on the host which passes the host IP and that calls xhost, it should work easily. And btw, we need a standard startup script anyway. It would work, but it's not a pretty solution, it requires customizations to the guest and it would not be intuitive to new users. I would much prefer the ability to just run any distro (even framebuffer based ones) without modifications using the virtual framebuffer. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Why not one management UI running from the host, a-la vmware? Yes ,that was what I had in mind. Possibly, with as much code as possible in scripting languages, for better transparency. Definitely, (see above) The management tools I have written export the guests' settings to the filesystem in the form of a shell script file, all the utility scripts just read those settings and do their stuff. (all in simple shell) Antoine Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 10:28:40AM +0200, roland wrote: what is the real advantage to package uml-kernel and rootfs into a single file ? If this needs to be distributed with additional script, that's two files, anyway. If a common means of doing this were widespread, the script would be distributed separately (probably with the uml utilities). Analagous to the way bootloaders are separate from linux on real hardware. That way, the distributor of a virtual machine would only distribute that single system image. The user would boot it using the script according to his own host environment. Jason - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Antoine Martin wrote: Jeff Dike wrote: On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:22:00PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. I have Gerd's patch sitting in my tree, but it's never really worked for me, so I haven't pushed it. Yep, I tried them and it didn't work for me either, I'll try again though. I did try again, and I found this patch: http://dl.bytesex.org/patches/uml-2.6.11/uml-x11-fb Which applied (2 rejects by hand), but failed with Mapping memory: Cannot allocate memory in mmap64: os_map_memory [...] at arch/um/os-Linux/process.c:164 and this one: http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/uml/patches/2.6.18-rc4/uml-x11-fb which applied cleanly, but is not letting me set the option - Kconfig is beyond me: arch/um/Kconfig:144:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_FILLRECT' arch/um/Kconfig:145:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_COPYAREA' arch/um/Kconfig:146:warning: 'select' used by config symbol 'X11_FB' refer to undefined symbol 'FB_CFB_IMAGEBLIT' So that's a non-starter for me... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 05:44:34PM -0400, Jeff Dike wrote: > There are sites (http://uml.nagafix.co.uk/ being the best one I know > of) where, with two downloads, two uncompressions, and one command > line later, you have a booted UML. > > The only way I know of to improve on this, aside from inprovements in > the booted distro, is to package the filesystem as a rootfs within the > UML kernel binary. I've considered this, but haven't done anything > with it. I've done the converse: package the uml kernel within the rootfs image, and use a script that plays the part of bootloader. With ext2 at least, it's fairly easy to use the debugfs 'cat' command for this. That way, you simply distribute the fs image with a companion script that can boot any number of such images. Jason - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 10:40:10PM +0200, roland wrote: > btw - i think besides that packaged uml+rootfs, the same thing could be > distributed in other formats, i.e. qemu, vmware, M$ virtual pc (add your > favourite v12n solution here) There are sites (http://uml.nagafix.co.uk/ being the best one I know of) where, with two downloads, two uncompressions, and one command line later, you have a booted UML. The only way I know of to improve on this, aside from inprovements in the booted distro, is to package the filesystem as a rootfs within the UML kernel binary. I've considered this, but haven't done anything with it. Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. mhh, i also think framebuffer would be nice, but the main idea behind my posting is have some recent linux kernel up and running without any effort - with main focus on kernel, not on apps. sure, it would be nice to have X for the unexperienced users, but if you run uml and get networking up and running, you just do ssh -X into your uml and then you have your X. those people who run the latest kernel for testing special things are not unexperienced, but having a packaged kernel+rootfs "ready to run" would also make _their_ life easier. think of testing several kernels in parallel to find/fix regressions. booting into something graphical with kdm/gdm login, firefox inside etc would be really nice, but that would be probably overkill for the purpose it should serve. framebuffer and X could be added later to uml, and i`m sure, it will exist one day. btw - i think besides that packaged uml+rootfs, the same thing could be distributed in other formats, i.e. qemu, vmware, M$ virtual pc (add your favourite v12n solution here) regards roland - Original Message - From: "Antoine Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jeff Dike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Blaisorblade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ? Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, which is why they download ready-made images. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Jeff Dike wrote: On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 11:21:43AM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. True, but I don't see that as being revolutionary. If people are going to run a VM, presumably they have some purpose in mind, but how often does that purpose involve having a GUI? I think the GUI is more important for new users than anyone else. Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Jeff Dike wrote: On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:22:00PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. I have Gerd's patch sitting in my tree, but it's never really worked for me, so I haven't pushed it. Yep, I tried them and it didn't work for me either, I'll try again though. Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 11:21:43AM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: > Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users > to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without > understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. True, but I don't see that as being revolutionary. If people are going to run a VM, presumably they have some purpose in mind, but how often does that purpose involve having a GUI? Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:22:00PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. > Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked > great when I gave it a try. > > I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml > last year. I have Gerd's patch sitting in my tree, but it's never really worked for me, so I haven't pushed it. Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked ^^ Sorry, this should have been `Knorr'. > great when I gave it a try. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: > Jeff Dike wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: > >> I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the > >> user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. > > > > Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you > > don't have now. > Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users > to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without > understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. > We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, > which is why they download ready-made images. > It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, > hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! > Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image > with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE > installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb > without risking your dev environment, etc... There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. A few years ago I tried doing one myself using gdk/gtk, but it didn't work reliably on all systems. My main motivation was doing development for different frame buffer memory organizations (think Amiga and Atari bitplanes) on UML. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, which is why they download ready-made images. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, which is why they download ready-made images. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Antoine Martin wrote: Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, which is why they download ready-made images. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. A few years ago I tried doing one myself using gdk/gtk, but it didn't work reliably on all systems. My main motivation was doing development for different frame buffer memory organizations (think Amiga and Atari bitplanes) on UML. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked ^^ Sorry, this should have been `Knorr'. great when I gave it a try. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:22:00PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. I have Gerd's patch sitting in my tree, but it's never really worked for me, so I haven't pushed it. Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 11:21:43AM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. True, but I don't see that as being revolutionary. If people are going to run a VM, presumably they have some purpose in mind, but how often does that purpose involve having a GUI? Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Jeff Dike wrote: On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 11:21:43AM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. True, but I don't see that as being revolutionary. If people are going to run a VM, presumably they have some purpose in mind, but how often does that purpose involve having a GUI? I think the GUI is more important for new users than anyone else. Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Jeff Dike wrote: On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 01:22:00PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: There are patches floating around for a UML frame buffer device. Gerd Kraxel^H^H^H^H^H^HHoffmann did one using plain X11, which worked great when I gave it a try. I suggest taking a look at Gerd's patches. IIRC, he posted them to lkml last year. I have Gerd's patch sitting in my tree, but it's never really worked for me, so I haven't pushed it. Yep, I tried them and it didn't work for me either, I'll try again though. Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. mhh, i also think framebuffer would be nice, but the main idea behind my posting is have some recent linux kernel up and running without any effort - with main focus on kernel, not on apps. sure, it would be nice to have X for the unexperienced users, but if you run uml and get networking up and running, you just do ssh -X into your uml and then you have your X. those people who run the latest kernel for testing special things are not unexperienced, but having a packaged kernel+rootfs ready to run would also make _their_ life easier. think of testing several kernels in parallel to find/fix regressions. booting into something graphical with kdm/gdm login, firefox inside etc would be really nice, but that would be probably overkill for the purpose it should serve. framebuffer and X could be added later to uml, and i`m sure, it will exist one day. btw - i think besides that packaged uml+rootfs, the same thing could be distributed in other formats, i.e. qemu, vmware, M$ virtual pc (add your favourite v12n solution here) regards roland - Original Message - From: Antoine Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeff Dike [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Blaisorblade [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; user-mode-linux-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ? Jeff Dike wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Just like the network auto-configuration via dhcp, it would allow users to download images+kernel and run them like appliances without understanding anything about X or UML, just click and run. We are all capable of setting up Xvfb here, but most users are not, which is why they download ready-made images. It would also make it a lot easier to focus on writing a management UI, hell if there isn't one shortly after, I'll do one myself! Think of a UML browser image (running IE via wine in a limited image with just X + wine + IE - I would much prefer that to having wine+IE installed locally), testing framebuffer apps like gtk-fb/cairo-fb without risking your dev environment, etc... Antoine - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 10:40:10PM +0200, roland wrote: btw - i think besides that packaged uml+rootfs, the same thing could be distributed in other formats, i.e. qemu, vmware, M$ virtual pc (add your favourite v12n solution here) There are sites (http://uml.nagafix.co.uk/ being the best one I know of) where, with two downloads, two uncompressions, and one command line later, you have a booted UML. The only way I know of to improve on this, aside from inprovements in the booted distro, is to package the filesystem as a rootfs within the UML kernel binary. I've considered this, but haven't done anything with it. Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 05:44:34PM -0400, Jeff Dike wrote: There are sites (http://uml.nagafix.co.uk/ being the best one I know of) where, with two downloads, two uncompressions, and one command line later, you have a booted UML. The only way I know of to improve on this, aside from inprovements in the booted distro, is to package the filesystem as a rootfs within the UML kernel binary. I've considered this, but haven't done anything with it. I've done the converse: package the uml kernel within the rootfs image, and use a script that plays the part of bootloader. With ext2 at least, it's fairly easy to use the debugfs 'cat' command for this. That way, you simply distribute the fs image with a companion script that can boot any number of such images. Jason - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: > I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the > user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel & rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
[...] in short: it`s quite some work to be done to have your uml 2.6.21 with root-fs up and running and working cleanly. whenever i search the net for some appropriate UML fs image, those i find are very often old and outdated... Hmm... I'd think we need a wizard for configuration. Plus some distro-like work for some specific issues - if I want to deploy a VM with hostname x, network config y, and with Xnest running, I need an easier way to do that. I think this can be solved by having the network auto-configure itself and make the startup scripts responsible for bringing up the interface and starting dhcp server on that interface. This is simple and does not require changes to the images. (it takes care of dns, ntp, smb, etc..) You can add settings on kernel command line and parse them inside UML - we need standard packaged utilities for that (one of the rootfs builder installed such stuff). That would certainly complicate things quite a bit. is there a project/website which is offering such ready to run "UML kernel+rootfs release bundles" for download (i.e. new kernel,generic root-fs, modules inside, sources inside, compiler inside - in sync with the latest stable vanilla) , or , would it make sense to establish such project ? i.e. besides releasing the kernel, also releasing sort of a kernel "runtime kit" and/or "devkit" ? The runtime kit is there on nagafix.co.uk. The devkit is a main idea - most of the work is to put something on the UML wiki and market well the idea - creating such an image would be easy. But I haven't clear what you're talking about - kernel development (why sources inside) or userspace development? Also integrating all possible debug stuff would be useful, but I don't know what's needed. i think this could be very helpful for linux-kernel, because it could be tested by more people more quickly, more easily and thus, more often. just download, do few steps for setup, start up that virtual machine and there you go testing, hacking into the sources, do all that things you never would do on your main system, whatever it would probably also add benefit to UML itself. We need three things: a) more performance b) more users c) more developers a) leads to c), and b) too. does this sound dumb? i don`t know, so please comment. No, it's not dumb. I'm even wanting to have a "Vmware-like" interface. Or at least standard scripts for guest management. I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. my 2p Cheers Antoine regards roland PS: ok, this would be some 500M to 1G download, but there`s lot`s of bandwidth today - and P2P/Bittorrent. uml.nagafix.co.uk has some good kernels + images. With compression, they're even as little as 50 Mb. However, making UML easier to use, and marketing it for more application, is very important. Various project do exist but they're not integrated, and they do not try to (netkit is for network experimentation, but is also better as VM management tool). In short, we'd need somebody helping out really with the website (there is the wiki but you must request an account via email, and it's not the main website), with uml-utilities, and with new uml-utilities (you know dm-snapshot is a faster COW? Something to setup it automatically would be good). There would be more to say on this, but I can't right now (I've other stuff to do). - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
[...] in short: it`s quite some work to be done to have your uml 2.6.21 with root-fs up and running and working cleanly. whenever i search the net for some appropriate UML fs image, those i find are very often old and outdated... Hmm... I'd think we need a wizard for configuration. Plus some distro-like work for some specific issues - if I want to deploy a VM with hostname x, network config y, and with Xnest running, I need an easier way to do that. I think this can be solved by having the network auto-configure itself and make the startup scripts responsible for bringing up the interface and starting dhcp server on that interface. This is simple and does not require changes to the images. (it takes care of dns, ntp, smb, etc..) You can add settings on kernel command line and parse them inside UML - we need standard packaged utilities for that (one of the rootfs builder installed such stuff). That would certainly complicate things quite a bit. is there a project/website which is offering such ready to run UML kernel+rootfs release bundles for download (i.e. new kernel,generic root-fs, modules inside, sources inside, compiler inside - in sync with the latest stable vanilla) , or , would it make sense to establish such project ? i.e. besides releasing the kernel, also releasing sort of a kernel runtime kit and/or devkit ? The runtime kit is there on nagafix.co.uk. The devkit is a main idea - most of the work is to put something on the UML wiki and market well the idea - creating such an image would be easy. But I haven't clear what you're talking about - kernel development (why sources inside) or userspace development? Also integrating all possible debug stuff would be useful, but I don't know what's needed. i think this could be very helpful for linux-kernel, because it could be tested by more people more quickly, more easily and thus, more often. just download, do few steps for setup, start up that virtual machine and there you go testing, hacking into the sources, do all that things you never would do on your main system, whatever it would probably also add benefit to UML itself. We need three things: a) more performance b) more users c) more developers a) leads to c), and b) too. does this sound dumb? i don`t know, so please comment. No, it's not dumb. I'm even wanting to have a Vmware-like interface. Or at least standard scripts for guest management. I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. my 2p Cheers Antoine regards roland PS: ok, this would be some 500M to 1G download, but there`s lot`s of bandwidth today - and P2P/Bittorrent. uml.nagafix.co.uk has some good kernels + images. With compression, they're even as little as 50 Mb. However, making UML easier to use, and marketing it for more application, is very important. Various project do exist but they're not integrated, and they do not try to (netkit is for network experimentation, but is also better as VM management tool). In short, we'd need somebody helping out really with the website (there is the wiki but you must request an account via email, and it's not the main website), with uml-utilities, and with new uml-utilities (you know dm-snapshot is a faster COW? Something to setup it automatically would be good). There would be more to say on this, but I can't right now (I've other stuff to do). - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [uml-devel] [RFC] UML kernel rootfs bundle with every kernel release ?
On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 08:58:45PM +0100, Antoine Martin wrote: I reckon that one critical thing which could drastically increase the user base would be to have a working virtual framebuffer implementation. Why? I've never understood what a framebuffer gives you that you don't have now. Jeff -- Work email - jdike at linux dot intel dot com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/