Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On 07/22/2013 09:02 PM, Luck, Tony wrote: > Some thoughts on the format of the discussion at KS: > > ... > 5) Volunteers are under-represented at Kernel Summit Volunteers are the "dark matter" of Linux Kernel contribution. They are not the "usual suspects" who nearly all have full time jobs now, allowing them the time investment to raise their profile sufficiently to gain a place at the KS round table. They may not be very vocal. They are most probably the first to depart for more pleasant pastures when the interaction becomes less than fun. In part because they do not have an employer who requires them to stay engaged no matter what. How do we represent the viewpoint of volunteers? Which for many of us is a former life, the memory of which may be starting to fade. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > Let's shift this discussion away from the terms "abuse" and > "professionalism" to "respect" and "civility". And Daniel Philips replied: > Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we > all try to demonstrate the real meaning of respect and civility, by > practising it henceforth on LKML +1 from me too. Using the right terms will help us have a discussion that focusses on the issues that matter - and avoid getting side-tracked by things that don't. Some thoughts on the format of the discussion at KS: 1) Keep it real We could come up with hypothetical scenarios on what things people *might* say, and how you *might* react and talk for days. Let's stick to things that actually happened. (people's feelings/emotions on seeing specific posts count as "actually happened" for this - even if they didn't post a reply ... perhaps especially if they didn't post). 2) Keep it personal An extension of keeping it real - none of us represents the thoughts and opinions of *every* other developer with whom we share some attribute. Sarah doesn't speak for all young cool programmers any more than I speak for all old uncool ones :-). So stick to your own stories, or those of specific people that can't be at KS but ask for their tales to be told. [Not sure how well I expressed this one ... I'm trying to avoid the issue where someone gets fired up with indignation on behalf of someone else ... who isn't actually bothered by whatever happened]. 3) Don't bring up ancient history From the discussions on this, it looks like many people believe that things are better than they were just a few years ago. Unless someone has the desire to do some month-by-month survey and disproves this perception - let's pretend we have a one or two year statute of limitations and not keep feuds going for (internet) generations. 4) Perfect is the enemy of good Or "You can't please all of the people all of the time". No matter what we do there will still be some unhappy people. Life is like that. But we can almost certainly make more of the people happier for most of the time. So our goal isn't to solve every possible problem (we need to save some topics for future KS :-) we just want to make things better than they are, while still allowing for criticism of code. -Tony -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: Let's shift this discussion away from the terms abuse and professionalism to respect and civility. And Daniel Philips replied: Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we all try to demonstrate the real meaning of respect and civility, by practising it henceforth on LKML +1 from me too. Using the right terms will help us have a discussion that focusses on the issues that matter - and avoid getting side-tracked by things that don't. Some thoughts on the format of the discussion at KS: 1) Keep it real We could come up with hypothetical scenarios on what things people *might* say, and how you *might* react and talk for days. Let's stick to things that actually happened. (people's feelings/emotions on seeing specific posts count as actually happened for this - even if they didn't post a reply ... perhaps especially if they didn't post). 2) Keep it personal An extension of keeping it real - none of us represents the thoughts and opinions of *every* other developer with whom we share some attribute. Sarah doesn't speak for all young cool programmers any more than I speak for all old uncool ones :-). So stick to your own stories, or those of specific people that can't be at KS but ask for their tales to be told. [Not sure how well I expressed this one ... I'm trying to avoid the issue where someone gets fired up with indignation on behalf of someone else ... who isn't actually bothered by whatever happened]. 3) Don't bring up ancient history From the discussions on this, it looks like many people believe that things are better than they were just a few years ago. Unless someone has the desire to do some month-by-month survey and disproves this perception - let's pretend we have a one or two year statute of limitations and not keep feuds going for (internet) generations. 4) Perfect is the enemy of good Or You can't please all of the people all of the time. No matter what we do there will still be some unhappy people. Life is like that. But we can almost certainly make more of the people happier for most of the time. So our goal isn't to solve every possible problem (we need to save some topics for future KS :-) we just want to make things better than they are, while still allowing for criticism of code. -Tony -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On 07/22/2013 09:02 PM, Luck, Tony wrote: Some thoughts on the format of the discussion at KS: ... 5) Volunteers are under-represented at Kernel Summit Volunteers are the dark matter of Linux Kernel contribution. They are not the usual suspects who nearly all have full time jobs now, allowing them the time investment to raise their profile sufficiently to gain a place at the KS round table. They may not be very vocal. They are most probably the first to depart for more pleasant pastures when the interaction becomes less than fun. In part because they do not have an employer who requires them to stay engaged no matter what. How do we represent the viewpoint of volunteers? Which for many of us is a former life, the memory of which may be starting to fade. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > Let's shift this discussion away from the terms "abuse" and > "professionalism" to "respect" and "civility". Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we all try to demonstrate the real meaning of respect and civility, by practising it henceforth on LKML? KS ought to be about clarification, reinforcement and specific techniques, as opposed to the question of whether respect and civility are desirable in the first place. Nobody needs to wait for KS to learn the basic truth they already know in their heart. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: Let's shift this discussion away from the terms abuse and professionalism to respect and civility. Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we all try to demonstrate the real meaning of respect and civility, by practising it henceforth on LKML? KS ought to be about clarification, reinforcement and specific techniques, as opposed to the question of whether respect and civility are desirable in the first place. Nobody needs to wait for KS to learn the basic truth they already know in their heart. Regards, Daniel -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
