Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:24:07 +0800, leo wrote: (snip) > Here is the helper process I propose to help more people to participate. > Suggestions and comments are welcomed. I think this seems mostly good. I will try to comment a bit. > 1) Developer who can't speak English or has a problem going through the I think early stage of developer may have "difficulty of using English". I think this may better than "can't speak". > submission process sends patches to the Language maintainer and cc the > local mail list provided. > 2) Language maintainer and experienced Linux developer on the local mail > list can review the patch and give comments in native language. In the review process, translated document of HOWTO, SubmittingPatches, CodingStyle and SummitChecklist are used in the local mail list. > 3) When the language maintainer thinks the patch is good in general, he > will pass the patch onto corresponding subsystem maintainer and mail > list for further review, cc the author and local list. > 4) The author communicates directly with the community. > 5) If the author has a problem understanding the comments or expressing > himself in English, he can ask for help in native language on the local > list. The language maintainer and the developers on the list are > responsible to help out. > 6) When the developer gets familiar with the submission process and can > go through it with no problem, he can then submit patch directly without > the helper process and probably join the mail list to help other new > developer. > > - Leo > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:24:07 +0800, leo wrote: (snip) Here is the helper process I propose to help more people to participate. Suggestions and comments are welcomed. I think this seems mostly good. I will try to comment a bit. 1) Developer who can't speak English or has a problem going through the I think early stage of developer may have difficulty of using English. I think this may better than can't speak. submission process sends patches to the Language maintainer and cc the local mail list provided. 2) Language maintainer and experienced Linux developer on the local mail list can review the patch and give comments in native language. In the review process, translated document of HOWTO, SubmittingPatches, CodingStyle and SummitChecklist are used in the local mail list. 3) When the language maintainer thinks the patch is good in general, he will pass the patch onto corresponding subsystem maintainer and mail list for further review, cc the author and local list. 4) The author communicates directly with the community. 5) If the author has a problem understanding the comments or expressing himself in English, he can ask for help in native language on the local list. The language maintainer and the developers on the list are responsible to help out. 6) When the developer gets familiar with the submission process and can go through it with no problem, he can then submit patch directly without the helper process and probably join the mail list to help other new developer. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 12:24:07 pm Li Yang wrote: > Here is the helper process I propose to help more people to participate. > Suggestions and comments are welcomed. > > 1) Developer who can't speak English or has a problem going through the > submission process sends patches to the Language maintainer and cc the > local mail list provided. > 2) Language maintainer and experienced Linux developer on the local mail > list can review the patch and give comments in native language. > 3) When the language maintainer thinks the patch is good in general, he > will pass the patch onto corresponding subsystem maintainer and mail > list for further review, cc the author and local list. > 4) The author communicates directly with the community. > 5) If the author has a problem understanding the comments or expressing > himself in English, he can ask for help in native language on the local > list. The language maintainer and the developers on the list are > responsible to help out. > 6) When the developer gets familiar with the submission process and can > go through it with no problem, he can then submit patch directly without > the helper process and probably join the mail list to help other new > developer. You know your area better than I do. If you think that will work, I certainly have no objections... > - Leo Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Tsugikazu Shibata wrote: On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:42:07 +0800, leo wrote: On 7/14/07, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. So the possibility is very little that a translator is needed between the Linux maintainer and a Chinese developer. Although sometimes help is needed when there is misunderstanding. After a brief talk with the Japanese translator, I think the case is similar for Japanese too. Yes, In Japan, situation is mostly the same. We are trying to increase number of Linux community developer with Linux Foundation Japan or CELF people in Japan. In our discussion, the problem is not only Language. In case of some developer, once he step forward (he try to send patch or comment on LKML), he got some comment and he can work with community even if it's slow (because of he was non-native). So, I thought if some key document are available in Japanese like HOWTO, that will help such early stage of developers. Therefore, in my opinion, language maintainer should be more a helper and promoter rather than a gatekeeper. I will give a proposed process later about how this helper mechanism works. I will be able to help this as a stand point of Japanese situation. Here is the helper process I propose to help more people to participate. Suggestions and comments are welcomed. 1) Developer who can't speak English or has a problem going through the submission process sends patches to the Language maintainer and cc the local mail list provided. 2) Language maintainer and experienced Linux developer on the local mail list can review the patch and give comments in native language. 3) When the language maintainer thinks the patch is good in general, he will pass the patch onto corresponding subsystem maintainer and mail list for further review, cc the author and local list. 4) The author communicates directly with the community. 5) If the author has a problem understanding the comments or expressing himself in English, he can ask for help in native language on the local list. The language maintainer and the developers on the list are responsible to help out. 6) When the developer gets familiar with the submission process and can go through it with no problem, he can then submit patch directly without the helper process and probably join the mail list to help other new developer. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
> Alan Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> preferred. Moreover, technical education is completely in English. I don't >> see much value in translating developer documentation into Indian >> languages. User documentation is another story. > I am not convinced that users do not become developers, nor that we > should have language barriers that make this unneccessarily hard. Again speaking only from the Indian context, we're somewhat unique when compared to China and Japan ;-). It's extremely unlikely that a non-english speaking user will become a developer. As I mentioned in my previous mail technical education is almost completely in English. Most Indian IT work places communicate almost exclusively in English, including verbal communication because of employees from all over India with different native languages. English is not a language barrier for developers or even technical users from India. Ganesan -- Ganesan Rajagopal - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: preferred. Moreover, technical education is completely in English. I don't see much value in translating developer documentation into Indian languages. User documentation is another story. I am not convinced that users do not become developers, nor that we should have language barriers that make this unneccessarily hard. Again speaking only from the Indian context, we're somewhat unique when compared to China and Japan ;-). It's extremely unlikely that a non-english speaking user will become a developer. As I mentioned in my previous mail technical education is almost completely in English. Most Indian IT work places communicate almost exclusively in English, including verbal communication because of employees from all over India with different native languages. English is not a language barrier for developers or even technical users from India. Ganesan -- Ganesan Rajagopal - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Tsugikazu Shibata wrote: On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:42:07 +0800, leo wrote: On 7/14/07, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. So the possibility is very little that a translator is needed between the Linux maintainer and a Chinese developer. Although sometimes help is needed when there is misunderstanding. After a brief talk with the Japanese translator, I think the case is similar for Japanese too. Yes, In Japan, situation is mostly the same. We are trying to increase number of Linux community developer with Linux Foundation Japan or CELF people in Japan. In our discussion, the problem is not only Language. In case of some developer, once he step forward (he try to send patch or comment on LKML), he got some comment and he can work with community even if it's slow (because of he was non-native). So, I thought if some key document are available in Japanese like HOWTO, that will help such early stage of developers. Therefore, in my opinion, language maintainer should be more a helper and promoter rather than a gatekeeper. I will give a proposed process later about how this helper mechanism works. I will be able to help this as a stand point of Japanese situation. Here is the helper process I propose to help more people to participate. Suggestions and comments are welcomed. 1) Developer who can't speak English or has a problem going through the submission process sends patches to the Language maintainer and cc the local mail list provided. 2) Language maintainer and experienced Linux developer on the local mail list can review the patch and give comments in native language. 3) When the language maintainer thinks the patch is good in general, he will pass the patch onto corresponding subsystem maintainer and mail list for further review, cc the author and local list. 4) The author communicates directly with the community. 5) If the author has a problem understanding the comments or expressing himself in English, he can ask for help in native language on the local list. The language maintainer and the developers on the list are responsible to help out. 6) When the developer gets familiar with the submission process and can go through it with no problem, he can then submit patch directly without the helper process and probably join the mail list to help other new developer. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 12:24:07 pm Li Yang wrote: Here is the helper process I propose to help more people to participate. Suggestions and comments are welcomed. 1) Developer who can't speak English or has a problem going through the submission process sends patches to the Language maintainer and cc the local mail list provided. 2) Language maintainer and experienced Linux developer on the local mail list can review the patch and give comments in native language. 3) When the language maintainer thinks the patch is good in general, he will pass the patch onto corresponding subsystem maintainer and mail list for further review, cc the author and local list. 4) The author communicates directly with the community. 5) If the author has a problem understanding the comments or expressing himself in English, he can ask for help in native language on the local list. The language maintainer and the developers on the list are responsible to help out. 6) When the developer gets familiar with the submission process and can go through it with no problem, he can then submit patch directly without the helper process and probably join the mail list to help other new developer. You know your area better than I do. If you think that will work, I certainly have no objections... - Leo Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
> preferred. Moreover, technical education is completely in English. I don't > see much value in translating developer documentation into Indian > languages. User documentation is another story. I am not convinced that users do not become developers, nor that we should have language barriers that make this unneccessarily hard. Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
What I would like to see is the Americans learning English as a FIRST language. Keith (England) - Original Message - From: "H. Peter Anvin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Li Yang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Rob Landley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gerrit Huizenga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Kunai, Takashi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Andrew Morton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer > Li Yang wrote: > > > > I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain > > the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is > > mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people > > learn other language as a second language. Therefore software > > developers who are almost educated should have the basic English > > skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or > > communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your > > second language learn in school for analogy. > > Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in > school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from > the British isles), and we don't have that problem. > > > Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause > > misunderstanding. This will > > reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If > > we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should > > maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. > > Translation will serve this purpose very well. > > What we have found in Europe, is that that it has limited value, and > that the closer to the core you are, the less value it is, because at > that stage you should be communicating more with other developers. > Putting yourself behind a wall of translation is unfortunately a > detriment in that way. > > -hpa > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-doc" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
> Alan Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > That aside, please remember that Europe as a whole is a small place on the > bigger world stage. The total volume of potential developers in the huge > and rapidly modernising nations like India and China is vast, and there > are large highly skilled technical nations that don't teach English to > everyone technical by default. Speaking for India only, while the medium of instruction in primary and high school is available in native languages, English is almost universally preferred. Moreover, technical education is completely in English. I don't see much value in translating developer documentation into Indian languages. User documentation is another story. Ganesan -- Ganesan Rajagopal - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That aside, please remember that Europe as a whole is a small place on the bigger world stage. The total volume of potential developers in the huge and rapidly modernising nations like India and China is vast, and there are large highly skilled technical nations that don't teach English to everyone technical by default. Speaking for India only, while the medium of instruction in primary and high school is available in native languages, English is almost universally preferred. Moreover, technical education is completely in English. I don't see much value in translating developer documentation into Indian languages. User documentation is another story. Ganesan -- Ganesan Rajagopal - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
What I would like to see is the Americans learning English as a FIRST language. Keith (England) - Original Message - From: H. Peter Anvin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Gerrit Huizenga [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kunai, Takashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andrew Morton [EMAIL PROTECTED]; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer Li Yang wrote: I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. What we have found in Europe, is that that it has limited value, and that the closer to the core you are, the less value it is, because at that stage you should be communicating more with other developers. Putting yourself behind a wall of translation is unfortunately a detriment in that way. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-doc in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Tsugikazu Shibata wrote: > > Yes, In Japan, situation is mostly the same. > We are trying to increase number of Linux community developer with > Linux Foundation Japan or CELF people in Japan. > In our discussion, the problem is not only Language. > > In case of some developer, once he step forward (he try to send patch > or comment on LKML), he got some comment and he can work with > community even if it's slow (because of he was non-native). > So, I thought if some key document are available in Japanese like > HOWTO, that will help such early stage of developers. > I think you're absolutely right about that. The stuff that will help most of have translated is (kernel)newbie type documentation, the stuff one wants when being introduced to the community. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:42:07 +0800, leo wrote: > On 7/14/07, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: > > > On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > > > > +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in > > > > C, > > > > from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer > > > > translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the > > > > patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for > > > > inclusion > > > > in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such > > > > patches as part of the +patch review process. > > > > > > In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, > > > in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to > > > do. :) > > > First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. > > > Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. > > > > Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. > > > > I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language > > maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge > > their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a > > language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the > > creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to > > solve. > > > > To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of > > translating documentation. > > I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain > the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is > mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people > learn other language as a second language. Therefore software > developers who are almost educated should have the basic English > skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or > communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your > second language learn in school for analogy. Read in English will be > much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will > reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If > we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should > maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. > Translation will serve this purpose very well. > > So the possibility is very little that a translator is needed between > the Linux maintainer and a Chinese developer. Although sometimes help > is needed when there is misunderstanding. > > After a brief talk with the Japanese translator, I think the case is > similar for Japanese too. Yes, In Japan, situation is mostly the same. We are trying to increase number of Linux community developer with Linux Foundation Japan or CELF people in Japan. In our discussion, the problem is not only Language. In case of some developer, once he step forward (he try to send patch or comment on LKML), he got some comment and he can work with community even if it's slow (because of he was non-native). So, I thought if some key document are available in Japanese like HOWTO, that will help such early stage of developers. > Therefore, in my opinion, language maintainer should be more a helper > and promoter rather than a gatekeeper. I will give a proposed process > later about how this helper mechanism works. I will be able to help this as a stand point of Japanese situation. > - Leo > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On 07/15/2007 08:12 PM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: Li Yang wrote: I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. There is somewhat of a difference though: English and both our native languages are very much related. English, Dutch (my native language) and Swedish (yours) are all Germanic languages -- English and Dutch both West Germanic and Swedish only slightly farther removed as North Germanic. Word for word translations not _too_ infrequently actually make okay or at least understandable Dutch... Other than Germanic, the Slavic (Polish, Czech, Russian, ...) and Latin (Italian, Spanish, French, ...) language families are two other direct Indo-European descendants that are fairly well represented in the kernel community but I believe it's a largely unsurprising observation that members of both these families have a somewhat harder time adopting English. And Chinese is not even Indo-European... However -- in Europe I notice culture might be even more important than school _or_ language family is and as such I believe the above argument isn't all that important anyway. English is the second language we learn in school here in the Netherlands but it's much more popular than say German, a language even closer to Dutch, due to us having heard English basically from the time we're old enough to hear music and watch TV. Most _Dutch_ bands sing in English and the ones that don't are for a part targetting the elderly and/or mentally handicapped... German is close enough to Dutch (and English itself) to rule out most differences related to native language, but in Germany a significantly smaller percentage of people speaks English well enough to be comfortable with it than in the Netherlands simply due to them producing more of their own culture. It's a larger language zone to market to and they dub the remaining English-language content on TV. Over here in the Netherlands we sub-title. France is another good example. While a bit farther removed from English family-wise, English has had lots of influences from French as well and in any case, learning English shouldn't be harder for a Frenchman than learning French is for a Dutchman (we are, or were when I was there, taught French in school as well) which is to say not very hard. Yet, mastery of English is extremely poor in France. Not as a coincedence, most _all_ of the French culture is in the French language including dubbed originally English songs for example. Both the German and, slower, French examples get less true with every new generation, but both still hold... Popular culture in the sense of music, tv and these days very much games is something you start to experience at a very young age, years younger than the Chinese will be taught English in school and age is extremely important in mastering a language -- the human brain is by far best at it at the time you start mastering your native language (in fact, this is what defines "native") and every single year after that makes it harder. That is -- let's just solve our Chinese translation problem by overthrowing the Chinese government and forcing the sub-titled Harry Potter film-series down the throat of the population... |-/ Seriously, I only wanted to say that both language family and (import of) culture are very important and as such, concentrating on schooling alone might not be all that sensible. I did not want to say that I feel that all these translations make a great deal of sense. Some of us have an easier time learning English than others do, the Chinese probably don't have an easy time at all, but a single common language is still the thing to aim for. The subset and semblance of English spoken on this list seems like something that should serve well as that common language, especially given the _help_ English language education gives in it. Also, I hear China is in fact fairly rapidly opening up to Western (American) popular culture which might be an argument if you have a generation or two to spare... Apologies for ranting... Cheers, Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
H. Peter Anvin wrote: Alan Cox wrote: Key documents in other languages is a big help, especially those about values, culture and standards because they are things that are not easy to understand if your use of English is technically oriented. In that sense, a translation of "Linux Kernel Internals" and the other books written on the Linux kernel is more useful. Several groups of people are translating the "important bits" (a different selection for each culture) of the kernelnewbies documentation to different languages already: http://kernelnewbies.org/RegionalNewbies I can easily set up additional wikis for anybody who wants to set up such a kernel documentation site in their language. -- Politics is the struggle between those who want to make their country the best in the world, and those who believe it already is. Each group calls the other unpatriotic. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Alan Cox wrote: > O> Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in >> school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from >> the British isles), and we don't have that problem. > > Not all those from the British Isles. A first language an English as > school language is not that uncommon for segments of the population, and > in Wales schooling may also be such that English is learned as a first > foreign language. > > That aside, please remember that Europe as a whole is a small place on the > bigger world stage. The total volume of potential developers in the huge > and rapidly modernising nations like India and China is vast, and there > are large highly skilled technical nations that don't teach English to > everyone technical by default. > > Key documents in other languages is a big help, especially those about > values, culture and standards because they are things that are not easy > to understand if your use of English is technically oriented. No doubt. My point was merely that the closer to the core of development, the less translated documents help as the emphasis on interaction *has* to increase. In that sense, a translation of "Linux Kernel Internals" and the other books written on the Linux kernel is more useful. That doesn't mean, of course, that there isn't documentation distributed with the kernel that is intended for users and therefore more useful in translation. However, I do feel that trying to keep up-to-date translations of design documentation is at least to some degree a fool's errand, which ends up having people rely on incomplete and outdated documentation, and cut them off from the overall community. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On 7/16/07, H. Peter Anvin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Li Yang wrote: > > I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain > the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is > mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people > learn other language as a second language. Therefore software > developers who are almost educated should have the basic English > skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or > communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your > second language learn in school for analogy. Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Then this could be the main reason for the disagreement we have on this topic. Many people here don't grasp English very well even after the English classes. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
O> Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in > school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from > the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Not all those from the British Isles. A first language an English as school language is not that uncommon for segments of the population, and in Wales schooling may also be such that English is learned as a first foreign language. That aside, please remember that Europe as a whole is a small place on the bigger world stage. The total volume of potential developers in the huge and rapidly modernising nations like India and China is vast, and there are large highly skilled technical nations that don't teach English to everyone technical by default. Key documents in other languages is a big help, especially those about values, culture and standards because they are things that are not easy to understand if your use of English is technically oriented. Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Li Yang wrote: > > I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain > the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is > mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people > learn other language as a second language. Therefore software > developers who are almost educated should have the basic English > skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or > communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your > second language learn in school for analogy. Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. > Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause > misunderstanding. This will > reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If > we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should > maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. > Translation will serve this purpose very well. What we have found in Europe, is that that it has limited value, and that the closer to the core you are, the less value it is, because at that stage you should be communicating more with other developers. Putting yourself behind a wall of translation is unfortunately a detriment in that way. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On 7/14/07, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: > On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > > +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, > > from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer > > translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the > > patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion > > in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such > > patches as part of the +patch review process. > > In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, > in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to > do. :) > First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. > Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. So the possibility is very little that a translator is needed between the Linux maintainer and a Chinese developer. Although sometimes help is needed when there is misunderstanding. After a brief talk with the Japanese translator, I think the case is similar for Japanese too. Therefore, in my opinion, language maintainer should be more a helper and promoter rather than a gatekeeper. I will give a proposed process later about how this helper mechanism works. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On 7/14/07, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. So the possibility is very little that a translator is needed between the Linux maintainer and a Chinese developer. Although sometimes help is needed when there is misunderstanding. After a brief talk with the Japanese translator, I think the case is similar for Japanese too. Therefore, in my opinion, language maintainer should be more a helper and promoter rather than a gatekeeper. I will give a proposed process later about how this helper mechanism works. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Li Yang wrote: I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. What we have found in Europe, is that that it has limited value, and that the closer to the core you are, the less value it is, because at that stage you should be communicating more with other developers. Putting yourself behind a wall of translation is unfortunately a detriment in that way. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
O Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Not all those from the British Isles. A first language an English as school language is not that uncommon for segments of the population, and in Wales schooling may also be such that English is learned as a first foreign language. That aside, please remember that Europe as a whole is a small place on the bigger world stage. The total volume of potential developers in the huge and rapidly modernising nations like India and China is vast, and there are large highly skilled technical nations that don't teach English to everyone technical by default. Key documents in other languages is a big help, especially those about values, culture and standards because they are things that are not easy to understand if your use of English is technically oriented. Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On 7/16/07, H. Peter Anvin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Li Yang wrote: I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Then this could be the main reason for the disagreement we have on this topic. Many people here don't grasp English very well even after the English classes. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Alan Cox wrote: O Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. Not all those from the British Isles. A first language an English as school language is not that uncommon for segments of the population, and in Wales schooling may also be such that English is learned as a first foreign language. That aside, please remember that Europe as a whole is a small place on the bigger world stage. The total volume of potential developers in the huge and rapidly modernising nations like India and China is vast, and there are large highly skilled technical nations that don't teach English to everyone technical by default. Key documents in other languages is a big help, especially those about values, culture and standards because they are things that are not easy to understand if your use of English is technically oriented. No doubt. My point was merely that the closer to the core of development, the less translated documents help as the emphasis on interaction *has* to increase. In that sense, a translation of Linux Kernel Internals and the other books written on the Linux kernel is more useful. That doesn't mean, of course, that there isn't documentation distributed with the kernel that is intended for users and therefore more useful in translation. However, I do feel that trying to keep up-to-date translations of design documentation is at least to some degree a fool's errand, which ends up having people rely on incomplete and outdated documentation, and cut them off from the overall community. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
H. Peter Anvin wrote: Alan Cox wrote: Key documents in other languages is a big help, especially those about values, culture and standards because they are things that are not easy to understand if your use of English is technically oriented. In that sense, a translation of Linux Kernel Internals and the other books written on the Linux kernel is more useful. Several groups of people are translating the important bits (a different selection for each culture) of the kernelnewbies documentation to different languages already: http://kernelnewbies.org/RegionalNewbies I can easily set up additional wikis for anybody who wants to set up such a kernel documentation site in their language. -- Politics is the struggle between those who want to make their country the best in the world, and those who believe it already is. Each group calls the other unpatriotic. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On 07/15/2007 08:12 PM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: Li Yang wrote: I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy Actually, I disagree. English *is* the second language learned in school for most European developers (except, obviously, the ones from the British isles), and we don't have that problem. There is somewhat of a difference though: English and both our native languages are very much related. English, Dutch (my native language) and Swedish (yours) are all Germanic languages -- English and Dutch both West Germanic and Swedish only slightly farther removed as North Germanic. Word for word translations not _too_ infrequently actually make okay or at least understandable Dutch... Other than Germanic, the Slavic (Polish, Czech, Russian, ...) and Latin (Italian, Spanish, French, ...) language families are two other direct Indo-European descendants that are fairly well represented in the kernel community but I believe it's a largely unsurprising observation that members of both these families have a somewhat harder time adopting English. And Chinese is not even Indo-European... However -- in Europe I notice culture might be even more important than school _or_ language family is and as such I believe the above argument isn't all that important anyway. English is the second language we learn in school here in the Netherlands but it's much more popular than say German, a language even closer to Dutch, due to us having heard English basically from the time we're old enough to hear music and watch TV. Most _Dutch_ bands sing in English and the ones that don't are for a part targetting the elderly and/or mentally handicapped... German is close enough to Dutch (and English itself) to rule out most differences related to native language, but in Germany a significantly smaller percentage of people speaks English well enough to be comfortable with it than in the Netherlands simply due to them producing more of their own culture. It's a larger language zone to market to and they dub the remaining English-language content on TV. Over here in the Netherlands we sub-title. France is another good example. While a bit farther removed from English family-wise, English has had lots of influences from French as well and in any case, learning English shouldn't be harder for a Frenchman than learning French is for a Dutchman (we are, or were when I was there, taught French in school as well) which is to say not very hard. Yet, mastery of English is extremely poor in France. Not as a coincedence, most _all_ of the French culture is in the French language including dubbed originally English songs for example. Both the German and, slower, French examples get less true with every new generation, but both still hold... Popular culture in the sense of music, tv and these days very much games is something you start to experience at a very young age, years younger than the Chinese will be taught English in school and age is extremely important in mastering a language -- the human brain is by far best at it at the time you start mastering your native language (in fact, this is what defines native) and every single year after that makes it harder. That is -- let's just solve our Chinese translation problem by overthrowing the Chinese government and forcing the sub-titled Harry Potter film-series down the throat of the population... |-/ Seriously, I only wanted to say that both language family and (import of) culture are very important and as such, concentrating on schooling alone might not be all that sensible. I did not want to say that I feel that all these translations make a great deal of sense. Some of us have an easier time learning English than others do, the Chinese probably don't have an easy time at all, but a single common language is still the thing to aim for. The subset and semblance of English spoken on this list seems like something that should serve well as that common language, especially given the _help_ English language education gives in it. Also, I hear China is in fact fairly rapidly opening up to Western (American) popular culture which might be an argument if you have a generation or two to spare... Apologies for ranting... Cheers, Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:42:07 +0800, leo wrote: On 7/14/07, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. I think you worried too much about this problem. :) Let me explain the situation here in China more clearly. Actually, English is mandatory in most schools and universities. Only very few people learn other language as a second language. Therefore software developers who are almost educated should have the basic English skill. However, that doesn't mean that they can read English or communicate with native English speaker very easily. Consider your second language learn in school for analogy. Read in English will be much slower and more likely to cause misunderstanding. This will reduce the likelihood greatly of English documentation being read. If we are promoting contribution to the Linux community, we should maximum the possibility that these key documents being read. Translation will serve this purpose very well. So the possibility is very little that a translator is needed between the Linux maintainer and a Chinese developer. Although sometimes help is needed when there is misunderstanding. After a brief talk with the Japanese translator, I think the case is similar for Japanese too. Yes, In Japan, situation is mostly the same. We are trying to increase number of Linux community developer with Linux Foundation Japan or CELF people in Japan. In our discussion, the problem is not only Language. In case of some developer, once he step forward (he try to send patch or comment on LKML), he got some comment and he can work with community even if it's slow (because of he was non-native). So, I thought if some key document are available in Japanese like HOWTO, that will help such early stage of developers. Therefore, in my opinion, language maintainer should be more a helper and promoter rather than a gatekeeper. I will give a proposed process later about how this helper mechanism works. I will be able to help this as a stand point of Japanese situation. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Tsugikazu Shibata wrote: Yes, In Japan, situation is mostly the same. We are trying to increase number of Linux community developer with Linux Foundation Japan or CELF people in Japan. In our discussion, the problem is not only Language. In case of some developer, once he step forward (he try to send patch or comment on LKML), he got some comment and he can work with community even if it's slow (because of he was non-native). So, I thought if some key document are available in Japanese like HOWTO, that will help such early stage of developers. I think you're absolutely right about that. The stuff that will help most of have translated is (kernel)newbie type documentation, the stuff one wants when being introduced to the community. -hpa - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: > On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > > Proposed patch adding Li Yang to MAINTAINERS, and Documentation > > describing what a language maintainer is. > > > > Signed-off-by: Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Signed-off-by: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yay! > > +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, > > from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer > > translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the > > patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion > > in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such > > patches as part of the +patch review process. > > In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, > in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to > do. :) > First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. > Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thursday 12 July 2007 4:02:47 pm Pavel Machek wrote: > Hi! > > > @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@ > > +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English. > > +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose > > choose? I was trying for past tense. > > +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, > > from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer > > translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the > > patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion > > in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such > > patches as part of the +patch review process. > > Poor person... I'm not sure this can work for non-trivial patches. We'll see. Personally, I'm more worried about how people who don't speak english are supposed to choose function and variable names. But translating _just_ the patch is not the end of it, and I wanted to make that clear. I suppose a translator can always push back and ask for a _concise_ review, for the sake of translation. But let's not invent problems before they actually occur... > Pavel Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > Proposed patch adding Li Yang to MAINTAINERS, and Documentation > describing what a language maintainer is. > > Signed-off-by: Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Signed-off-by: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > -- > > On Thursday 12 July 2007 9:53:54 am Li Yang-r58472 wrote: > > > > > I'm trying to establish. > > > > > > A list works fine as a point of contact. I note that in general, > > maintainers > > > are individuals (who delegate like mad, of course), because otherwise > > agenda > > > items languish with everyone thinking it's someone else's > > responsibility. > > > > Got it. I can do it as long as it doesn't consume too much time. :) > > Woot! See attached patch and sign-off-by if you want the job. :) > > The bit about "the maintainer forwards, not the list" is a suggestion to > prevent duplicates. It doesn't mean you can't delegate, just that if it's > open season on the list translating stuff _and_ forwarding it, then > linux-kernel will get dupes. (Plus other maintainers are more likely > to pay attention to somebody they've heard from before.) > > Greg KH had entire an OLS presentation about how the developer -> > maintainer -> subsystem -> anderew+linus forwarding is more > an ideal than a reality, but at least it gives us a frame of reference > to diverge from: > http://lwn.net/Articles/240402/ > > diff -r edfd2d6f670d MAINTAINERS > --- a/MAINTAINERS Tue Jul 10 17:51:13 2007 -0700 > +++ b/MAINTAINERS Thu Jul 12 11:51:19 2007 -0400 > @@ -2146,6 +2146,13 @@ W: http://auxdisplay.googlepages.com/ > W: http://auxdisplay.googlepages.com/ > S: Maintained > > +LANGUAGE (CHINESE) > +P: Li Yang > +M: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > +L: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > +W: http://zh-kernel.org > +S: Maintained > + > LAPB module > L: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > S: Orphan > --- /dev/null 2007-04-23 11:59:00.0 -0400 > +++ linux-2.6/Documentation/language-maintainers.txt 2007-07-12 > 11:49:20.0 -0400 > @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@ > +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English. > +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose > +to hold technical discussions in English.) > + > +The job of a language maintainer is to provide a point of contact for > +non-english speaking developers who wish to merge their patches into the > +Linux kernel. Each language needs a specific language maintainer, who > +accepts non-english patch submissions on behalf of the Linux kernel. > + > +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from > +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates > the > +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel > +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and > +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the > +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. > + > +Some language maintainers provide a mailing list as a point of contact, to > +distribute the translation work, but the maintainer is still the person who > +ultimately forwards the results (to prevent duplicates), and the one to > contact > +if patches and questions don't get translated and forwarded in a timely > fashion. > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@
> > +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English.
> > +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose
>
> choose?
>From `dict choose':
Choose \Choose\, v. t. [imp. {Chose}; p. p. {Chosen}, {Chose}
(Obs.); p. pr. & vb. n. {Choosing}.] [OE. chesen, cheosen,
AS. ce['o]san; akin to OS. kiosan, D. kiezen, G. kiesen,
Icel. kj[=o]sa, Goth. kiusan, L. gustare to taste, Gr. ?,
Skr. jush to enjoy. [root]46. Cf. {Choice}, 2d {Gust}.]
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, Pavel Machek wrote:
@@ -0,0 +1,20 @@
+The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English.
+(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose
choose?
From `dict choose':
Choose \Choose\, v. t. [imp. {Chose}; p. p. {Chosen}, {Chose}
(Obs.); p. pr. vb. n. {Choosing}.] [OE. chesen, cheosen,
AS. ce['o]san; akin to OS. kiosan, D. kiezen, G. kiesen,
Icel. kj[=o]sa, Goth. kiusan, L. gustare to taste, Gr. ?,
Skr. jush to enjoy. [root]46. Cf. {Choice}, 2d {Gust}.]
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: Proposed patch adding Li Yang to MAINTAINERS, and Documentation describing what a language maintainer is. Signed-off-by: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- On Thursday 12 July 2007 9:53:54 am Li Yang-r58472 wrote: I'm trying to establish. A list works fine as a point of contact. I note that in general, maintainers are individuals (who delegate like mad, of course), because otherwise agenda items languish with everyone thinking it's someone else's responsibility. Got it. I can do it as long as it doesn't consume too much time. :) Woot! See attached patch and sign-off-by if you want the job. :) The bit about the maintainer forwards, not the list is a suggestion to prevent duplicates. It doesn't mean you can't delegate, just that if it's open season on the list translating stuff _and_ forwarding it, then linux-kernel will get dupes. (Plus other maintainers are more likely to pay attention to somebody they've heard from before.) Greg KH had entire an OLS presentation about how the developer - maintainer - subsystem - anderew+linus forwarding is more an ideal than a reality, but at least it gives us a frame of reference to diverge from: http://lwn.net/Articles/240402/ diff -r edfd2d6f670d MAINTAINERS --- a/MAINTAINERS Tue Jul 10 17:51:13 2007 -0700 +++ b/MAINTAINERS Thu Jul 12 11:51:19 2007 -0400 @@ -2146,6 +2146,13 @@ W: http://auxdisplay.googlepages.com/ W: http://auxdisplay.googlepages.com/ S: Maintained +LANGUAGE (CHINESE) +P: Li Yang +M: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +L: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +W: http://zh-kernel.org +S: Maintained + LAPB module L: [EMAIL PROTECTED] S: Orphan --- /dev/null 2007-04-23 11:59:00.0 -0400 +++ linux-2.6/Documentation/language-maintainers.txt 2007-07-12 11:49:20.0 -0400 @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@ +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English. +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose +to hold technical discussions in English.) + +The job of a language maintainer is to provide a point of contact for +non-english speaking developers who wish to merge their patches into the +Linux kernel. Each language needs a specific language maintainer, who +accepts non-english patch submissions on behalf of the Linux kernel. + +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. + +Some language maintainers provide a mailing list as a point of contact, to +distribute the translation work, but the maintainer is still the person who +ultimately forwards the results (to prevent duplicates), and the one to contact +if patches and questions don't get translated and forwarded in a timely fashion. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thursday 12 July 2007 4:02:47 pm Pavel Machek wrote: Hi! @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@ +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English. +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose choose? I was trying for past tense. +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. Poor person... I'm not sure this can work for non-trivial patches. We'll see. Personally, I'm more worried about how people who don't speak english are supposed to choose function and variable names. But translating _just_ the patch is not the end of it, and I wanted to make that clear. I suppose a translator can always push back and ask for a _concise_ review, for the sake of translation. But let's not invent problems before they actually occur... Pavel Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Friday 13 July 2007 8:43:03 am Li Yang wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 12:05 -0400, Rob Landley wrote: Proposed patch adding Li Yang to MAINTAINERS, and Documentation describing what a language maintainer is. Signed-off-by: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yay! +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. In addiction to this responsibility, I would like to add two more which, in my opinion, are more important. And these are what I'm trying to do. :) First, promoting contribution to Linux kernel in local language. Second, coordinate the translation effort of key kernel documents. Cool. It's good to do that, but not the problem I'm worried about solving. I was trying to describe the minimum requirements for being a language maintainer, I.E. what non-english users need in order to be able to merge their patches. Because without someone to contribute patches to (I.E a language maintainer), documentation in non-english languages promotes the creation of patches that can't be merged. That's the problem I'm trying to solve. To me, finding language maintainers is the flip side of the coin of translating documentation. Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Hi! > @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@ > +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English. > +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose choose? > +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from > +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates > the > +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel > +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and > +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the > +patch review process. Poor person... I'm not sure this can work for non-trivial patches. Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, Rob Landley wrote:
> --- /dev/null 2007-04-23 11:59:00.0 -0400
> +++ linux-2.6/Documentation/language-maintainers.txt 2007-07-12
> 11:49:20.0 -0400
> @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@
> +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English.
^
languages
> +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose
> +to hold technical discussions in English.)
> +
> +The job of a language maintainer is to provide a point of contact for
> +non-english speaking developers who wish to merge their patches into the
> +Linux kernel. Each language needs a specific language maintainer, who
> +accepts non-english patch submissions on behalf of the Linux kernel.
^^^
non-English
> +
> +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from
> +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates
> the
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, Rob Landley wrote:
--- /dev/null 2007-04-23 11:59:00.0 -0400
+++ linux-2.6/Documentation/language-maintainers.txt 2007-07-12
11:49:20.0 -0400
@@ -0,0 +1,20 @@
+The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English.
^
languages
+(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose
+to hold technical discussions in English.)
+
+The job of a language maintainer is to provide a point of contact for
+non-english speaking developers who wish to merge their patches into the
+Linux kernel. Each language needs a specific language maintainer, who
+accepts non-english patch submissions on behalf of the Linux kernel.
^^^
non-English
+
+A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from
+authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates
the
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese Language Maintainer
Hi! @@ -0,0 +1,20 @@ +The langauges in which the Linux kernel is developed are C and English. +(Note that Linus Torvalds' native language is Swedish, yet he chose choose? +A language maintainer accepts patches to the Linux kernel, written in C, from +authors who do not also speak English. The language maintainer translates the +description of each patch into English, forwards the patches to linux-kernel +and to the appropriate maintainers for inclusion in the Linux kernel, and +translates questions and replies about such patches as part of the +patch review process. Poor person... I'm not sure this can work for non-trivial patches. Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
