Re: Just an idea...
On Tue, 2010-07-06 at 14:39 +1200, Ryan McCoskrie wrote: Knowing a handful of extremely visual thinkers who dread the command line I have been thinking over the possibility of an application that uses a drag and drop interface to visually represent the concepts of piping and redirecting. At the moment I'm just in the day dream stage of development but I'm happy to start implementing if someone else is. Anyway, sorry if this is a considered a spam but I need to some how ask a largish number of people if I would be wasting my time on if I tried writing it. On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 16:41:24 you wrote: I think it's a good idea. Are you thinking of it as an educational tool, or something more like a shell script generator from a GUI? A script generator intended mainly for one liners. I had a brief look around freshmeat.net and didn't see anything like this. It may be that given the familiarity with the use of the command line by Linux user, such a tool is not needed. Or it may be that nobody thought of it before. I have had this idea in the back of my mind for a couple of years as something that could be done. The reason why I have bought it up now is because I've noticed that Unix has a massive bias against people with weak language skills. I have to say I've seen and worked with plenty of graphical tools to generate process flow and data flow from basic elements, with or without a target or specific language to generate the task in, but all had a specific purpose. Never seen something so close to the operating system as to use command line components. Basically what I want to be able to do with it is reply to people saying Linux is all unintuitive command line stuff from the 70's , with Look! A modern graphical command line!. It may be that you have uncovered something here. In a way I am hoping not. I'm scared of having to follow this up with a stable, maintainable implementation. We'd probably have to have a set of categorised tables with all of the common commands in there and a method for adding more. Also a dialogue for arguments and lots of documentation would be required. -- Quote of the login: In every non-trivial program there is at least one bug.
Re: Just an idea...
On 6 July 2010 18:19, Ryan McCoskrie ryan.mccosk...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-06 at 14:39 +1200, Ryan McCoskrie wrote: Knowing a handful of extremely visual thinkers who dread the command line I have been thinking over the possibility of an application that uses a drag and drop interface to visually represent the concepts of piping and redirecting. At the moment I'm just in the day dream stage of development but I'm happy to start implementing if someone else is. Anyway, sorry if this is a considered a spam but I need to some how ask a largish number of people if I would be wasting my time on if I tried writing it. On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 16:41:24 you wrote: I think it's a good idea. Are you thinking of it as an educational tool, or something more like a shell script generator from a GUI? A script generator intended mainly for one liners. I had a brief look around freshmeat.net and didn't see anything like this. It may be that given the familiarity with the use of the command line by Linux user, such a tool is not needed. Or it may be that nobody thought of it before. I have had this idea in the back of my mind for a couple of years as something that could be done. The reason why I have bought it up now is because I've noticed that Unix has a massive bias against people with weak language skills. Indeed it does, but would it not be a better idea to create a program which helped people improve their language and reeading skills, instead of creating a program which only made the unix command line environment available to the linguistically challenged. A much better use of the letters I and E - Illiteracy Exterminator than the more usual one. I have to say I've seen and worked with plenty of graphical tools to generate process flow and data flow from basic elements, with or without a target or specific language to generate the task in, but all had a specific purpose. Never seen something so close to the operating system as to use command line components. Basically what I want to be able to do with it is reply to people saying Linux is all unintuitive command line stuff from the 70's , with Look! A modern graphical command line!. i.e. A visual shell? It may be that you have uncovered something here. In a way I am hoping not. I'm scared of having to follow this up with a stable, maintainable implementation. You might care to look at:- http://www.squeakland.org/ http://www.squeak.org/ http://scratch.mit.edu/ for ideas. We'd probably have to have a set of categorised tables with all of the common commands in there and a method for adding more. Also a dialogue for arguments and lots of documentation would be required. Remembering your target audience, you'll have to produce a visual show instead of the more normal printed documentation. http://www.debugmode.com/wink/ Best of luck. -- Sincerely etc. Christopher Sawtell
Re: Just an idea...
On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:40:08 Christopher Sawtell wrote: Indeed it does, but would it not be a better idea to create a program which helped people improve their language and reeading skills, instead of creating a program which only made the unix command line environment available to the linguistically challenged. A much better use of the letters I and E - Illiteracy Exterminator than the more usual one. ... Where did that come from? I'm not talking about people who are lazy in their spelling, I'm talking about those who think in heavily visual terms. Trust me on this point, I know a couple who are very technically minded but can not cope with a system that is built around language. i.e. A visual shell? I'm pretty sure that I've seen that term used in a broader sense. -- Quote of the login: In every non-trivial program there is at least one bug.
Re: Just an idea...
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Ryan McCoskrie ryan.mccosk...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:40:08 Christopher Sawtell wrote: Indeed it does, but would it not be a better idea to create a program which helped people improve their language and reeading skills, instead of creating a program which only made the unix command line environment available to the linguistically challenged. A much better use of the letters I and E - Illiteracy Exterminator than the more usual one. ... Where did that come from? I'm not talking about people who are lazy in their spelling, I'm talking about those who think in heavily visual terms. Trust me on this point, I know a couple who are very technically minded but can not cope with a system that is built around language. i.e. A visual shell? I'm pretty sure that I've seen that term used in a broader sense. -- Quote of the login: In every non-trivial program there is at least one bug. Man I have tried to help a dyslexic est up a mythtv system. I must admit I glossed over the setup very quickly, he wouldn't have learned a lot from that. But phone support: Nick: type sudo aptitude Unnamed Assistee: Is that with a 's' or a 'c' N: ess-you-dee-oh U: ess you - what's next N: dee-oh-space-aptitude - it's a word in the dictionary... U: Do I type out ess-pee-aaa-see-eee or just hit the space bar etc Lack of language skills that go with his disability made it very difficult. Not his fault. But click on the button that looks like blah is far easier in that situation.
Re: Just an idea...
On 6 July 2010 14:39, Ryan McCoskrie ryan.mccosk...@gmail.com wrote: Knowing a handful of extremely visual thinkers who dread the command line I have been thinking over the possibility of an application that uses a drag and drop interface to visually represent the concepts of piping and redirecting. At the moment I'm just in the day dream stage of development but I'm happy to start implementing if someone else is. Anyway, sorry if this is a considered a spam but I need to some how ask a largish number of people if I would be wasting my time on if I tried writing it. Vaguely related -- have you played with http://pipes.yahoo.com/ at all? Drag-and-drop data manipulation. Somewhat OT as not Open.
Re: Just an idea...
On Tue, 2010-07-06 at 20:18 +1200, Ryan McCoskrie wrote: On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:40:08 Christopher Sawtell wrote: Indeed it does, but would it not be a better idea to create a program which helped people improve their language and reeading skills, instead of creating a program which only made the unix command line environment available to the linguistically challenged. A much better use of the letters I and E - Illiteracy Exterminator than the more usual one. ... Where did that come from? I'm not talking about people who are lazy in their spelling, I'm talking about those who think in heavily visual terms. Trust me on this point, I know a couple who are very technically minded but can not cope with a system that is built around language. i.e. A visual shell? I'm pretty sure that I've seen that term used in a broader sense. Actually, I have that problem with my wife. She is almost entirely visual and to teach her anything with a computer is completely frustrating. A visual shell would be a godsend. Cheers Chris T
Workshop 7.30pm tonight
Hi all, monthly notice, Jul.7: Tonight is the Sydenham GNU/Linux Users' workshop, 7.30-9.30pm (first Wednesday of each month, February to December), at the South Learning Centre http://www.library.christchurch.org.nz/South/, (rear door) South Christchurch Library, 66 Colombo Street, Beckenham. BYO distro, liveCD show tell, exchange tuition. Ubuntu is the default distro used. A chance to meet other *nix users, have installation questions answered, get on-line security tips, etc. Venue is home base for: Saturday 18 September 2010 Software Freedom Day http://www.softwarefreedomday.org International Free Open-Source Software Festival. All welcome. Kind regards, Rik Tindall
