Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-29 Thread Chris Buechler
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Toni Garcia  wrote:

> well, no kernel crash ?
>
>
> no kernel crash after upgrade
>
>
> answering myself, seems to be this problem:
>
> https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/3749
>

It's definitely not that problem, that was specific to 2.2 alpha snapshots
6+ months ago only. The change you linked is in 2.2.

It sounds like the problem with limiters and HA, since you mentioned you
are using limiters.
https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/4310

Removing the limiters will work around, otherwise we'll get that fixed in
2.2.1 which will follow before long.
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Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-28 Thread Toni Garcia

Hi again, 





BQ_BEGIN


BQ_BEGIN

well, no kernel crash ? 



no kernel crash after upgrade 

BQ_END

answering myself, seems to be this problem: 

https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/3749 

I'll try the workaround at 

https://redmine.pfsense.org/projects/pfsense/repository/revisions/720c529f2890708c8dca6264924ec5b1afbf0daf
 

BQ_END

Definetly, my problem was due to this error in the upgrade log: 
x ./tmp/pre_upgrade_command: Cannot extract through symlink tmp 
tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors. 
chmod: /tmp/pre_upgrade_command: No such file or directory 
/tmp/pre_upgrade_command: Can't open /tmp/pre_upgrade_command: No such file or 
directory 

Because of my tmp was a symlink to /var/tmp, the pre_upgrade_command script 
couldn't be untared, and the situation was the same as of pfSense 2.1.4 (this 
is pfSense 2.1.5) as explained in the bug 3749. 

Now, my system is upgraded (and limiters disabled) 

Maybe can be checked this before upgrading (for pfSense 2.2.1), I can't 
remember if I manually tweaked /tmp or it was in this way when installed (as of 
pfSense 2.0.1) and survived on upgrades. 

Thanks again 

BQ_BEGIN




BQ_BEGIN


BQ_BEGIN



if kernel crashs: 
seems to me you did the same mistake like me: 
setup with HA and limiters ? 

BQ_END

i read the note, i'm using limiters on a separate VLAN (not LAN) and i thought 
to test if it crashes. 

i think we must wait this issue to be solved, isn't it? :( 

thanks and regards 


BQ_BEGIN



see: 
https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Upgrade_Guide#Limiters_with_High_Availability_not_working
 

br 
stephan 


2015-01-28 10:47 GMT+01:00 Toni Garcia < toni.gar...@sistel.es > : 

BQ_BEGIN

I'm trying to upgrade my HA firewall, starting from the secondary CARP member, 
but with no success. 

I tried from BUI and CLI (downloading and verifying md5 also) but after 
complete the firmware upgrade process, the device doesn't reboot by itself (and 
rebooting takes it to an inconsistent state, boot loop'ing...) 

This is the CLI output: 

0) Logout (SSH only) 8) Shell 
1) Assign Interfaces 9) pfTop 
2) Set interface(s) IP address 10) Filter Logs 
3) Reset webConfigurator password 11) Restart webConfigurator 
4) Reset to factory defaults 12) pfSense Developer Shell 
5) Reboot system 13) Upgrade from console 
6) Halt system 14) Disable Secure Shell (sshd) 
7) Ping host 15) Restore recent configuration 


Enter an option: 13 


Starting the pfSense console firmware update system.. 

1) Update from a URL 
2) Update from a local file 
Q) Quit 

Please select an option to continue: 2 

Enter the complete path to the .tgz or .img.gz update file: 
/root/pfSense-Full-Update-2.2-RELEASE-amd64.tgz 

One moment please... 

Broadcast Message from ad...@selene2.sistel.es 
(no tty) at 10:04 CET... 

Firmware upgrade in progress... 

Done.
 Rebooting... 

After this, the console menu reappears and every command fails with a "Out of 
file descriptors" message (also rebooting is impossible, only but pressing the 
power button) 

I've checked and no firmware process is running after the "Rebooting" message. 

Any idea on what could be the problem? There's a full upgrade log? 

Thanks 

-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 



TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 





Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 

___ 
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Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold 

BQ_END



___ 
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https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list 
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold 


BQ_END


-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 
Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 



TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 





Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 


Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-28 Thread Toni Garcia



De: "Toni Garcia"  
Para: "pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List"  
Enviados: Miércoles, 28 de Enero 2015 13:37:03 
Asunto: Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100 





BQ_BEGIN

well, no kernel crash ? 



no kernel crash after upgrade 

BQ_END

answering myself, seems to be this problem: 

https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/3749 

I'll try the workaround at 

https://redmine.pfsense.org/projects/pfsense/repository/revisions/720c529f2890708c8dca6264924ec5b1afbf0daf
 



BQ_BEGIN


BQ_BEGIN



if kernel crashs: 
seems to me you did the same mistake like me: 
setup with HA and limiters ? 

BQ_END

i read the note, i'm using limiters on a separate VLAN (not LAN) and i thought 
to test if it crashes. 

i think we must wait this issue to be solved, isn't it? :( 

thanks and regards 


BQ_BEGIN



see: 
https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Upgrade_Guide#Limiters_with_High_Availability_not_working
 

br 
stephan 


2015-01-28 10:47 GMT+01:00 Toni Garcia < toni.gar...@sistel.es > : 

BQ_BEGIN

I'm trying to upgrade my HA firewall, starting from the secondary CARP member, 
but with no success. 

I tried from BUI and CLI (downloading and verifying md5 also) but after 
complete the firmware upgrade process, the device doesn't reboot by itself (and 
rebooting takes it to an inconsistent state, boot loop'ing...) 

This is the CLI output: 

0) Logout (SSH only) 8) Shell 
1) Assign Interfaces 9) pfTop 
2) Set interface(s) IP address 10) Filter Logs 
3) Reset webConfigurator password 11) Restart webConfigurator 
4) Reset to factory defaults 12) pfSense Developer Shell 
5) Reboot system 13) Upgrade from console 
6) Halt system 14) Disable Secure Shell (sshd) 
7) Ping host 15) Restore recent configuration 


Enter an option: 13 


Starting the pfSense console firmware update system.. 

1) Update from a URL 
2) Update from a local file 
Q) Quit 

Please select an option to continue: 2 

Enter the complete path to the .tgz or .img.gz update file: 
/root/pfSense-Full-Update-2.2-RELEASE-amd64.tgz 

One moment please... 

Broadcast Message from ad...@selene2.sistel.es 
(no tty) at 10:04 CET... 

Firmware upgrade in progress... 

Done.
 Rebooting... 

After this, the console menu reappears and every command fails with a "Out of 
file descriptors" message (also rebooting is impossible, only but pressing the 
power button) 

I've checked and no firmware process is running after the "Rebooting" message. 

Any idea on what could be the problem? There's a full upgrade log? 

Thanks 

-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 



TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 





Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 

___ 
pfSense mailing list 
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list 
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold 

BQ_END



___ 
pfSense mailing list 
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list 
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold 


BQ_END


-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 



TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 





Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 

___ 
pfSense mailing list 
https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list 
Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold 


BQ_END


-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 



TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 



Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-28 Thread Toni Garcia
>> well, no kernel crash ?

> no kernel crash after upgrade

answering myself, seems to be this problem: 

https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/3749 

I'll try the workaround at 

https://redmine.pfsense.org/projects/pfsense/repository/revisions/720c529f2890708c8dca6264924ec5b1afbf0daf
 

>> if kernel crashs:
>> seems to me you did the same mistake like me:
>> setup with HA and limiters ?

> i read the note, i'm using limiters on a separate VLAN (not LAN) and i thought
> to test if it crashes.

> i think we must wait this issue to be solved, isn't it? :(

> thanks and regards

>> see:
>> https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Upgrade_Guide#Limiters_with_High_Availability_not_working

>> br
>> stephan

>> 2015-01-28 10:47 GMT+01:00 Toni Garcia < toni.gar...@sistel.es > :

>>> I'm trying to upgrade my HA firewall, starting from the secondary CARP 
>>> member,
>>> but with no success.

>>> I tried from BUI and CLI (downloading and verifying md5 also) but after 
>>> complete
>>> the firmware upgrade process, the device doesn't reboot by itself (and
>>> rebooting takes it to an inconsistent state, boot loop'ing...)

>>> This is the CLI output:

>>> 0) Logout (SSH only) 8) Shell
>>> 1) Assign Interfaces 9) pfTop
>>> 2) Set interface(s) IP address 10) Filter Logs
>>> 3) Reset webConfigurator password 11) Restart webConfigurator
>>> 4) Reset to factory defaults 12) pfSense Developer Shell
>>> 5) Reboot system 13) Upgrade from console
>>> 6) Halt system 14) Disable Secure Shell (sshd)
>>> 7) Ping host 15) Restore recent configuration

>>> Enter an option: 13

>>> Starting the pfSense console firmware update system..

>>> 1) Update from a URL
>>> 2) Update from a local file
>>> Q) Quit

>>> Please select an option to continue: 2

>>> Enter the complete path to the .tgz or .img.gz update file:
>>> /root/pfSense-Full-Update-2.2-RELEASE-amd64.tgz

>>> One moment please...

>>> Broadcast Message from ad...@selene2.sistel.es
>>> (no tty) at 10:04 CET...

>>> Firmware upgrade in progress...

>>> Done.
>>> Rebooting...

>>> After this, the console menu reappears and every command fails with a "Out 
>>> of
>>> file descriptors" message (also rebooting is impossible, only but pressing 
>>> the
>>> power button)

>>> I've checked and no firmware process is running after the "Rebooting" 
>>> message.

>>> Any idea on what could be the problem? There's a full upgrade log?

>>> Thanks

>>> --
>>> Toni Garcia
>>> Técnico de Sistemas

>>> Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist
>>> Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator
>>> Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator

>>> SISTEL

>>> Servicios Informáticos de Software
>>> y Telecomunicaciones
>>> Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE

>>> TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558
>>> www.sistel.es

>>> Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este
>>> e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing
>>> this e-mail.

>>> ___
>>> pfSense mailing list
>>> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
>>> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

>> ___
>> pfSense mailing list
>> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
>> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

> --
> Toni Garcia
> Técnico de Sistemas

> Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist
> Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator
> Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator

> SISTEL

> Servicios Informáticos de Software
> y Telecomunicaciones
> Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE

> TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558
> www.sistel.es

> Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este
> e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing
> this e-mail.

> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 

TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 

Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 
___

Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-28 Thread Toni Garcia
> De: "WolfSec-Support" 
> Para: "pfSense Support and Discussion Mailing List" 
> Enviados: Miércoles, 28 de Enero 2015 10:53:34
> Asunto: Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

> well, no kernel crash ?

no kernel crash after upgrade 

> if kernel crashs:
> seems to me you did the same mistake like me:
> setup with HA and limiters ?

i read the note, i'm using limiters on a separate VLAN (not LAN) and i thought 
to test if it crashes. 

i think we must wait this issue to be solved, isn't it? :( 

thanks and regards 

> see:
> https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Upgrade_Guide#Limiters_with_High_Availability_not_working

> br
> stephan

> 2015-01-28 10:47 GMT+01:00 Toni Garcia < toni.gar...@sistel.es > :

>> I'm trying to upgrade my HA firewall, starting from the secondary CARP 
>> member,
>> but with no success.

>> I tried from BUI and CLI (downloading and verifying md5 also) but after 
>> complete
>> the firmware upgrade process, the device doesn't reboot by itself (and
>> rebooting takes it to an inconsistent state, boot loop'ing...)

>> This is the CLI output:

>> 0) Logout (SSH only) 8) Shell
>> 1) Assign Interfaces 9) pfTop
>> 2) Set interface(s) IP address 10) Filter Logs
>> 3) Reset webConfigurator password 11) Restart webConfigurator
>> 4) Reset to factory defaults 12) pfSense Developer Shell
>> 5) Reboot system 13) Upgrade from console
>> 6) Halt system 14) Disable Secure Shell (sshd)
>> 7) Ping host 15) Restore recent configuration

>> Enter an option: 13

>> Starting the pfSense console firmware update system..

>> 1) Update from a URL
>> 2) Update from a local file
>> Q) Quit

>> Please select an option to continue: 2

>> Enter the complete path to the .tgz or .img.gz update file:
>> /root/pfSense-Full-Update-2.2-RELEASE-amd64.tgz

>> One moment please...

>> Broadcast Message from ad...@selene2.sistel.es
>> (no tty) at 10:04 CET...

>> Firmware upgrade in progress...

>> Done.
>> Rebooting...

>> After this, the console menu reappears and every command fails with a "Out of
>> file descriptors" message (also rebooting is impossible, only but pressing 
>> the
>> power button)

>> I've checked and no firmware process is running after the "Rebooting" 
>> message.

>> Any idea on what could be the problem? There's a full upgrade log?

>> Thanks

>> --
>> Toni Garcia
>> Técnico de Sistemas

>> Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist
>> Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator
>> Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator

>> SISTEL

>> Servicios Informáticos de Software
>> y Telecomunicaciones
>> Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE

>> TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558
>> www.sistel.es

>> Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este
>> e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing
>> this e-mail.

>> ___
>> pfSense mailing list
>> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
>> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 

TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 

Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 
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Re: [pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-28 Thread WolfSec-Support
well, no kernel crash ?

if kernel crashs:
seems to me you did the same mistake like me:
setup with HA and limiters ?

see:
https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Upgrade_Guide#Limiters_with_High_Availability_not_working

br
stephan


2015-01-28 10:47 GMT+01:00 Toni Garcia :

> I'm trying to upgrade my HA firewall, starting from the secondary CARP
> member, but with no success.
>
> I tried from BUI and CLI (downloading and verifying md5 also) but after
> complete the firmware upgrade process, the device doesn't reboot by itself
> (and rebooting takes it to an inconsistent state, boot loop'ing...)
>
> This is the CLI output:
>
> 0) Logout (SSH only)  8) Shell
> 1) Assign Interfaces  9) pfTop
> 2) Set interface(s) IP address   10) Filter Logs
> 3) Reset webConfigurator password11) Restart webConfigurator
> 4) Reset to factory defaults 12) pfSense Developer Shell
> 5) Reboot system 13) Upgrade from console
> 6) Halt system   14) Disable Secure Shell (sshd)
> 7) Ping host 15) Restore recent configuration
>
>
> Enter an option: 13
>
>
> Starting the pfSense console firmware update system..
>
> 1) Update from a URL
> 2) Update from a local file
> Q) Quit
>
> Please select an option to continue: 2
>
> Enter the complete path to the .tgz or .img.gz update file:
> /root/pfSense-Full-Update-2.2-RELEASE-amd64.tgz
>
> One moment please...
>
> Broadcast Message from ad...@selene2.sistel.es
> (no tty) at 10:04 CET...
>
> Firmware upgrade in progress...
>
> Done.
> Rebooting...
>
> After this, the console menu reappears and every command fails with a "Out
> of file descriptors" message (also rebooting is impossible, only but
> pressing the power button)
>
> I've checked and no firmware process is running after the "Rebooting"
> message.
>
> Any idea on what could be the problem? There's a full upgrade log?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Toni Garcia
> Técnico de Sistemas
>
> Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist
> Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator
> Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator
>
> SISTEL
>
> Servicios Informáticos de Software
> y Telecomunicaciones
> Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE
>
> TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558
> www.sistel.es
>
>
>
>
>
> Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir
> este e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before
> printing this e-mail.
>
> ___
> pfSense mailing list
> https://lists.pfsense.org/mailman/listinfo/list
> Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold
>
___
pfSense mailing list
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Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold

[pfSense] Problem upgrading pfSense on Sun Fire x4100

2015-01-28 Thread Toni Garcia
I'm trying to upgrade my HA firewall, starting from the secondary CARP member, 
but with no success. 

I tried from BUI and CLI (downloading and verifying md5 also) but after 
complete the firmware upgrade process, the device doesn't reboot by itself (and 
rebooting takes it to an inconsistent state, boot loop'ing...) 

This is the CLI output: 

0) Logout (SSH only) 8) Shell 
1) Assign Interfaces 9) pfTop 
2) Set interface(s) IP address 10) Filter Logs 
3) Reset webConfigurator password 11) Restart webConfigurator 
4) Reset to factory defaults 12) pfSense Developer Shell 
5) Reboot system 13) Upgrade from console 
6) Halt system 14) Disable Secure Shell (sshd) 
7) Ping host 15) Restore recent configuration 


Enter an option: 13 


Starting the pfSense console firmware update system.. 

1) Update from a URL 
2) Update from a local file 
Q) Quit 

Please select an option to continue: 2 

Enter the complete path to the .tgz or .img.gz update file: 
/root/pfSense-Full-Update-2.2-RELEASE-amd64.tgz 

One moment please... 

Broadcast Message from ad...@selene2.sistel.es 
(no tty) at 10:04 CET... 

Firmware upgrade in progress... 

Done.
 Rebooting... 

After this, the console menu reappears and every command fails with a "Out of 
file descriptors" message (also rebooting is impossible, only but pressing the 
power button) 

I've checked and no firmware process is running after the "Rebooting" message. 

Any idea on what could be the problem? There's a full upgrade log? 

Thanks 

-- 
Toni Garcia 
Técnico de Sistemas 

Oracle Linux 6 Certified Implementation Specialist 
Oracle Certified Professional Solaris 10 System Administrator 
Oracle Certified Associate Solaris 11 System Administrator 

SISTEL  

Servicios Informáticos de Software 
y Telecomunicaciones 
Avd. Los Jarales, 4 (03010) ALICANTE 



TLF 965930080 - FAX 901021558 
www.sistel.es 





Por favor recuerda tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir este 
e-mail. / Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing 
this e-mail. 
___
pfSense mailing list
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Support the project with Gold! https://pfsense.org/gold