[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Ciell Wikipedia]

Thanks Nick!
Best,
Ciell


Op do 16 nov 2023 om 19:17 schreef Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
nwil...@wikimedia.org>:

> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 1:11 AM Ciell Wikipedia 
> wrote:
>
>> In the old system we could use regex strings to avoid the most obvious
>> spam: am I reading it correctly we should now enter these strings under the
>> 'banned addresses' tab? Do we have a quick-guide on how to compose these
>> strings? (I think my lists lost these settings in the upgrade, and my regex
>> knowledge is insufficient to write them myself.)
>>
>
> I believe that is correct, and the details in this section should be
> uptodate:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Auto-discarding_spam
> (I.e. They were added after the Mailman3 migration, and edited by multiple
> people, so hopefully any errors have already been corrected!)
> However, they could perhaps be improved with more examples?
> (If anyone has questions about specific examples, perhaps ask on the
> talkpage there?)
>
> Op do 16 nov 2023 om 03:23 schreef Platonides :
>>
>>> PS: I see some outdated pieces on
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration
>>> 
>>> that are no longer applicable on mailman 3
>>>
>>
> Please boldly edit the page to remove/update anything inaccurate, or raise
> concerns on the talkpage!
> +1 to your other comments.
>
> I hope that helps,
> Quiddity
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Nick Wilson (Quiddity)]

On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 1:11 AM Ciell Wikipedia 
wrote:

> In the old system we could use regex strings to avoid the most obvious
> spam: am I reading it correctly we should now enter these strings under the
> 'banned addresses' tab? Do we have a quick-guide on how to compose these
> strings? (I think my lists lost these settings in the upgrade, and my regex
> knowledge is insufficient to write them myself.)
>

I believe that is correct, and the details in this section should be
uptodate:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Auto-discarding_spam
(I.e. They were added after the Mailman3 migration, and edited by multiple
people, so hopefully any errors have already been corrected!)
However, they could perhaps be improved with more examples?
(If anyone has questions about specific examples, perhaps ask on the
talkpage there?)

Op do 16 nov 2023 om 03:23 schreef Platonides :
>
>> PS: I see some outdated pieces on
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration
>> 
>> that are no longer applicable on mailman 3
>>
>
Please boldly edit the page to remove/update anything inaccurate, or raise
concerns on the talkpage!
+1 to your other comments.

I hope that helps,
Quiddity
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Ciell Wikipedia]

Hi,

I am an admin for a few smaller lists and recognize the increase in spam
caught in the filters: though these emails will not go to the lists, they
need to be checked manually to make sure they aren't 'serieus' emails that
we do want to accept.

In the old system we could use regex strings to avoid the most obvious
spam: am I reading it correctly we should now enter these strings under the
'banned addresses' tab? Do we have a quick-guide on how to compose these
strings? (I think my lists lost these settings in the upgrade, and my regex
knowledge is insufficient to write them myself.)

Best,
Ciell


Op do 16 nov 2023 om 03:23 schreef Platonides :

> Hello MusikAnimal
>
> First of all, regarding Google group mailing lists, they are somewhat
> "elitist".
> Supposedly, it is possible to use those mailing lists without a google
> account, but in practice my experience is that it varies between requiring
> jumping through some hoops (*if* you actually find the needed hoops) to
> not possible at all.
>
> Second, if you hosted a wikimedia mailing list on Google groups it would
> not be possible to manage the subscription on https://lists.wikimedia.org,
> it wouldn't be listed there, nor would their archives...
>
> Not to mention it might have implications to the privacy policy.
>
> As for the actual spam problem. I don't know which list you are referring
> to but, is it allowing open posting? Does it need to allow that? Are they
> going through or getting stopped? In my experience, allowing only the
> subscribers to post to the mailing list is the most effective antispam
> measure.
>
> It should be possible to configure spamassassin to include the
> X-Spam-Score header even for lower scores (and thus filtering mails with
> lower values), although I would focus first on why it is not giving them
> higher score, or other traits that could allow blocking such messages.
>
> Regards
>
> PS: I see some outdated pieces on
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration
> 
> that are no longer applicable on mailman 3
>
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Platonides]

Hello MusikAnimal

First of all, regarding Google group mailing lists, they are somewhat
"elitist".
Supposedly, it is possible to use those mailing lists without a google
account, but in practice my experience is that it varies between requiring
jumping through some hoops (*if* you actually find the needed hoops) to not
possible at all.

Second, if you hosted a wikimedia mailing list on Google groups it would
not be possible to manage the subscription on https://lists.wikimedia.org,
it wouldn't be listed there, nor would their archives...

Not to mention it might have implications to the privacy policy.

As for the actual spam problem. I don't know which list you are referring
to but, is it allowing open posting? Does it need to allow that? Are they
going through or getting stopped? In my experience, allowing only the
subscribers to post to the mailing list is the most effective antispam
measure.

It should be possible to configure spamassassin to include the X-Spam-Score
header even for lower scores (and thus filtering mails with lower values),
although I would focus first on why it is not giving them higher score, or
other traits that could allow blocking such messages.

Regards

PS: I see some outdated pieces on
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration

that are no longer applicable on mailman 3
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[MusikAnimal]

Hello again! I've had my list rejecting emails with a x-spam-score of 4 or
higher since late April 2023. I *think* it helped, but now things are way
worse than ever. We get 2-3 spam emails a day. According to <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Spam_filters>,
it would seem it's not possible to filter for values lower than 4. Is that
correct? If so, what else can be done to prevent spam?

It's getting to the point that maintaining this list is more trouble than
it's worth.

How could I go about migrating my list to using Google Groups? From my
experience as a member of another such email list, Google Groups seems to
come with spam prevention features, so I'd like to give that a try.

Thanks,

~ MusikAnimal

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 4:36 AM Tommy Kronkvist 
wrote:

> Hi Edo de Roo.
> Please see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Unsubscribing for
> information about how to unsubscribe from any of the Wikimedia mailing
> lists.
>
> Best regards, Tommy Kronkvist
> < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Tommy_Kronkvist >
>
>
> 25 apr. 2023 kl. 06:04 skrev Edo de Roo :
>
> Can I be removed from these list(s)
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 21:23 MusikAnimal  wrote:
>
>> Amazing! Thank you both! I wish I had known about x-spam-score a long
>> time ago. It's a bit amusing that we're using AbuseFilter-esque rules to
>> filter out spam from a mailing list devoted to AbuseFilter, hehe! But hey,
>> whatever works :)
>>
>> As advised, I have it set to 4, with "Reject (with notification)", so I
>> assume I will be emailed when something is rejected. I have some worries
>> that given the nature of this list, we might have legitimate emails that
>> are *about* spam and may get flagged as spam itself. I will monitor and
>> tweak accordingly.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> ~ MusikAnimal
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:02 PM Bryan Davis  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:49 AM MusikAnimal 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hello! I am an admin of the
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/
>>> mailing list. Starting some months ago, we get spam more or less on a daily
>>> basis. We have all messages automatically held for approval, so our readers
>>> aren't seeing the spam, rather myself and the other admin are burdened with
>>> logging in and rejecting the emails every day.
>>> >
>>> > Is there any advice on how to prevent this from happening?
>>>
>>> The use of the x-spam-score header is not described in your current
>>> attempts to keep spam from the list, so
>>> <
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Spam_filters
>>> >
>>> may be worth looking at.
>>>
>>> Bryan
>>> --
>>> Bryan Davis  Technical Engagement  Wikimedia Foundation
>>> Principal Software Engineer   Boise, ID USA
>>> [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  irc: bd808
>>> ___
>>> Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create
>>> a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
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>
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Tommy Kronkvist]

Hi Edo de Roo.
Please see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Unsubscribing 
 for information 
about how to unsubscribe from any of the Wikimedia mailing lists.

Best regards, Tommy Kronkvist 
< https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Tommy_Kronkvist 
 >


> 25 apr. 2023 kl. 06:04 skrev Edo de Roo :
> 
> Can I be removed from these list(s)
> 
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 21:23 MusikAnimal  > wrote:
> Amazing! Thank you both! I wish I had known about x-spam-score a long time 
> ago. It's a bit amusing that we're using AbuseFilter-esque rules to filter 
> out spam from a mailing list devoted to AbuseFilter, hehe! But hey, whatever 
> works :)
> 
> As advised, I have it set to 4, with "Reject (with notification)", so I 
> assume I will be emailed when something is rejected. I have some worries that 
> given the nature of this list, we might have legitimate emails that are about 
> spam and may get flagged as spam itself. I will monitor and tweak accordingly.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> ~ MusikAnimal
> 
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:02 PM Bryan Davis  > wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:49 AM MusikAnimal  > wrote:
> >
> > Hello! I am an admin of the 
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/
> >  
> > 
> >  mailing list. Starting some months ago, we get spam more or less on a 
> > daily basis. We have all messages automatically held for approval, so our 
> > readers aren't seeing the spam, rather myself and the other admin are 
> > burdened with logging in and rejecting the emails every day.
> >
> > Is there any advice on how to prevent this from happening?
> 
> The use of the x-spam-score header is not described in your current
> attempts to keep spam from the list, so
>  >
> may be worth looking at.
> 
> Bryan
> -- 
> Bryan Davis  Technical Engagement  Wikimedia Foundation
> Principal Software Engineer   Boise, ID USA
> [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  irc: bd808
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> 
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> task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists 
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Edo de Roo]

Can I be removed from these list(s)

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 21:23 MusikAnimal  wrote:

> Amazing! Thank you both! I wish I had known about x-spam-score a long time
> ago. It's a bit amusing that we're using AbuseFilter-esque rules to filter
> out spam from a mailing list devoted to AbuseFilter, hehe! But hey,
> whatever works :)
>
> As advised, I have it set to 4, with "Reject (with notification)", so I
> assume I will be emailed when something is rejected. I have some worries
> that given the nature of this list, we might have legitimate emails that
> are *about* spam and may get flagged as spam itself. I will monitor and
> tweak accordingly.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> ~ MusikAnimal
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:02 PM Bryan Davis  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:49 AM MusikAnimal 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello! I am an admin of the
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/
>> mailing list. Starting some months ago, we get spam more or less on a daily
>> basis. We have all messages automatically held for approval, so our readers
>> aren't seeing the spam, rather myself and the other admin are burdened with
>> logging in and rejecting the emails every day.
>> >
>> > Is there any advice on how to prevent this from happening?
>>
>> The use of the x-spam-score header is not described in your current
>> attempts to keep spam from the list, so
>> <
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Spam_filters
>> >
>> may be worth looking at.
>>
>> Bryan
>> --
>> Bryan Davis  Technical Engagement  Wikimedia Foundation
>> Principal Software Engineer   Boise, ID USA
>> [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  irc: bd808
>> ___
>> Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>
>> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a
>> task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[MusikAnimal]

Amazing! Thank you both! I wish I had known about x-spam-score a long time
ago. It's a bit amusing that we're using AbuseFilter-esque rules to filter
out spam from a mailing list devoted to AbuseFilter, hehe! But hey,
whatever works :)

As advised, I have it set to 4, with "Reject (with notification)", so I
assume I will be emailed when something is rejected. I have some worries
that given the nature of this list, we might have legitimate emails that
are *about* spam and may get flagged as spam itself. I will monitor and
tweak accordingly.

Thanks again,

~ MusikAnimal

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:02 PM Bryan Davis  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:49 AM MusikAnimal 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello! I am an admin of the
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailing list. Starting some months ago, we get spam more or less on a daily
> basis. We have all messages automatically held for approval, so our readers
> aren't seeing the spam, rather myself and the other admin are burdened with
> logging in and rejecting the emails every day.
> >
> > Is there any advice on how to prevent this from happening?
>
> The use of the x-spam-score header is not described in your current
> attempts to keep spam from the list, so
>  >
> may be worth looking at.
>
> Bryan
> --
> Bryan Davis  Technical Engagement  Wikimedia Foundation
> Principal Software Engineer   Boise, ID USA
> [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  irc: bd808
> ___
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[Bryan Davis]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:49 AM MusikAnimal  wrote:
>
> Hello! I am an admin of the 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/
>  mailing list. Starting some months ago, we get spam more or less on a daily 
> basis. We have all messages automatically held for approval, so our readers 
> aren't seeing the spam, rather myself and the other admin are burdened with 
> logging in and rejecting the emails every day.
>
> Is there any advice on how to prevent this from happening?

The use of the x-spam-score header is not described in your current
attempts to keep spam from the list, so

may be worth looking at.

Bryan
-- 
Bryan Davis  Technical Engagement  Wikimedia Foundation
Principal Software Engineer   Boise, ID USA
[[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  irc: bd808
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[List admins] Re: Spam prevention

[MarcoAurelio]

 Hello,

Have you tried with header filters at <
https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/header-matches/
>?

E.g. you may create a filter for the X-Spam-Score header added by
SpamAssasin, and set a value such as [^+]*[+]{4,} so all emails with a
x-spam-score value equal or more than 4 get rejected/discarded (at the
admins' wish).

I don't quite remember right now, but I think mailman3 header filters do
apply to subscribers as well, even if their moderation policy is set to
"accept immediately", as apparently these rules seem to apply on top of
every other rule/setting and one must be careful, but a SpamAssasin value
of 4 or more should be pretty safe/accurate though.

What I miss in mailman3 (and existed in mailman2 IIRC) is the possibility
to hold for moderation messages from new subscribers only (getting
automatically removed from the moderation queue after X days and/or Y
accepted posts), instead of the current all-or-none approach (I've been
looking for that option but it seems not to exist anymore).

Best regards, M.

El lun, 24 abr 2023 a las 19:49, MusikAnimal ()
escribió:

> Hello! I am an admin of the
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikipedia-en-editfilters.lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailing list. Starting some months ago, we get spam more or less on a daily
> basis. We have all messages automatically held for approval, so our readers
> aren't seeing the spam, rather myself and the other admin are burdened with
> logging in and rejecting the emails every day.
>
> Is there any advice on how to prevent this from happening? I am aware some
> lists have moved to Google Groups. Would that help, you think? If so, how
> might I go about migrating my mailing list to it? We have long banned the
> email addresses, but it seems rarely we get spam from the same email twice,
> so this tactic has not been very effective.
>
> Thanks for any help you can provide,
>
> ~ MusikAnimal
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