Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
One of the problems with it ... a lot of internal folks had a hard time figuring out why what was on the screen was not what was coming out of their printer. LOL! I take it, by internal folks you mean faculty types with, as one would expect, an education somewhat beyond a high school diploma. Not much hope for us external folks, then, is there? I ran into the same issue with my main clients. The woman that sends in reports of various grants was in the habit of printing off a copy of whatever she was writing about and sending that with the report. She was taken back the first time it didn't work. I ended up making a pdf and sending it to her, but it has taken me back because it threw me into a dilemna about how to deal with it all. I see her need and feel like its a legitimate need. and was I able to explain to her what was going on I don't think so! :) Other times I've put print this page button on the page because apparently no one knows how to print without that, much less to do print preview! (it doesn't help that the local newspaper has print this page which takes someone to a separate, all text, html page - style sheets? what are style sheets?) its a uphill road, i tell ya! BUT, I did get major points recently from a new site I did. I'd told her (and she's a good friend) that I was making print style sheets and she didn't have to understand what that was but it was a *good* thing. A bit later she'd had to do some research and was very underwhelmed at trying to print various pages and at using so much ink. All of a sudden she *got it* what I had done and like I said major points! So, sometimes the road levels out a bit. :) best Donna -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
One of the problems with it ... a lot of internal folks had a hard time figuring out why what was on the screen was not what was coming out of their printer. LOL! I take it, by internal folks you mean faculty types with, as one would expect, an education somewhat beyond a high school diploma. Not much hope for us external folks, then, is there? 70% of the complaints were from people that work on web content and wanted to print exactly what they saw in order to make edits. The other 30% are those in the general public that think the screen and paper should look identical We still have the print style sheets though. Once it is explained to people they generally support using less ink/paper. Jesse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
There is a few PHP (and php+perl/etc) things out there that do html to pdf but none of them are quite right. One will find that they need to spend a lot of time tweaking their output and if you are printing with complex floats even add additional markup to compensate for bugs. So thats not quite a good option yet either. Barney Carroll wrote: The preview looks decent but the php causes my browser to tell me that 'the page was replaced while you were trying to print it'... Google uses a similar process to decent effect - the same policy of just printing the main frame content with the logo and title pasted in at the top. I suspect the best way to create serious (from a design-for-print standpoint) web-to-print systems is to install a php-based pdf generator, because at the end of the day no matter how sophisticated web technologies get, printing from within the browser is always going to leave a world's worth of factors out of your control. I believe Adobe have a very nice system based on this principle. Had a fun experience recently when developing my own print stylesheet whereby my overflow:hidden properties caused the print to be limited to one page no matter what. Regards, Barney Raphael Martins wrote: Look at http://www.tsa.ind.br they have print styles, and also a php print preview, using the print CSS. Barney Carroll escreveu: CK wrote: Hi, After browsing some favored CSS sites, some by Standards Evangelist, there seems to be a decline in the use of print styles. Has some movement escaped my research? Decline? There are only two truly decent print styles I've ever seen, ala and bbc news. Every wonderful article I've ever read about print styles is all but illegible in physical form. It's a shame because if I know I'm going to be reading for over 3 minutes I far prefer to have physical copy. I would love to hear of other well-printed sites though. I strongly believe in css for print but have seen far too few good examples of it. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: There is a few PHP (and php+perl/etc) things out there that do html to pdf but none of them are quite right. One will find that they need to spend a lot of time tweaking their output and if you are printing with complex floats even add additional markup to compensate for bugs. So thats not quite a good option yet either. Ive been writing print stylesheets and then printing to PDF from the browser (firefox) with PrimoPDF (http://www.primopdf.com) to create pdf files when I or a client needs them, doesn't quite solve the problem but it comes in handy. I think those sites that use a stylesheet-switcher to switch to a printer-friendly version to make the layout and so on simpler, hiding useless/irrelevant objects from the printed page and still maintaining the look and feel of the sites formatting work very well on the whole. If we never use the print css tools people will never catch on and browser support will continue to be flaky. On the topic of weird and wonderful print css glitches never use white-space: pre; with IE6 print css because it's well... you guessed it, it's broken (at least in conjunction with lists that is). Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Rob O'Rourke wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: There is a few PHP (and php+perl/etc) things out there that do html to pdf but none of them are quite right. One will find that they need to spend a lot of time tweaking their output and if you are printing with complex floats even add additional markup to compensate for bugs. So thats not quite a good option yet either. Ive been writing print stylesheets and then printing to PDF from the browser (firefox) with PrimoPDF (http://www.primopdf.com) to create pdf files when I or a client needs them, doesn't quite solve the problem but it comes in handy. I think those sites that use a stylesheet-switcher to switch to a printer-friendly version to make the layout and so on simpler, hiding useless/irrelevant objects from the printed page and still maintaining the look and feel of the sites formatting work very well on the whole. If we never use the print css tools people will never catch on and browser support will continue to be flaky. On the topic of weird and wonderful print css glitches never use white-space: pre; with IE6 print css because it's well... you guessed it, it's broken (at least in conjunction with lists that is). Rob O I have certainly seen a few sites that do it really well, I don't think that the browser's support is that bad that its a huge problem. The only thing is that its a real pity that some of the paged media style rules have so little support, even in Firefox. Yeah it is annoying that print to pdf can work so well but its so hard to simulate your own. I guess thats because the browsers post script support is going to be finely tuned and the pdf converter just turns ps into pdf. I'm however quite happy with myself, dynamically generating pdfs on demand server side is quite kewl, even if it does take a bit of messing around. Steve. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
At 12/2/2006 09:15 PM, Jesse Rodgers wrote: ... a lot of internal folks had a hard time figuring out why what was on the screen was not what was coming out of their printer. Some people got really upset. They don't mind the click to a print version but the auto-format on print just freaks some people out. I think print styles aren't as common because it is just not what people seem to want, they want to print what they see on the screen exactly as it appears. My optimistic hope is that this kind of WYSINWYG shock is transitory, and after a while people will become accustomed to print styles differing from screen styles as more and more developers learn to style for print. For example, the people referenced above, having once experienced the bee-zarre screenprint phenomenon, will take it more in stride the next time it comes along and will be more likely to say, Oh, yeah, I've seen that, rather than exclaim, WTF! Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
On 12/1/06, Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect the best way to create serious (from a design-for-print standpoint) web-to-print systems is to install a php-based pdf generator, because at the end of the day no matter how sophisticated web technologies get, printing from within the browser is always going to leave a world's worth of factors out of your control. I believe Adobe have a very nice system based on this principle. I thought part of the whole web standards thing was joyously embracing the lack of control, and creating styles, for various formats (screen, print, etc) with the fore-knowledge of variety of devices? If we have embraced a lack of control on screen, why not also embrace the lack of control for print? Print has its own standards, and while CSS has some capabilities for it, PDF is an accepted standard that works well. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
After browsing some favored CSS sites, some by Standards Evangelist, there seems to be a decline in the use of print styles. Has some movement escaped my research? The University of Waterloo has print CSS that removes the left navigation and changes the layout to 100% from a fixed pixel width (fixes some odd printing quirks with some people). The idea was to save paper by not printing something that is totally useless on paper - navigation, search box, etc. One of the problems with it when it first appeared in the campus standard nearly two years ago was that a lot of internal folks had a hard time figuring out why what was on the screen was not what was coming out of their printer. Some people got really upset. They don't mind the click to a print version but the auto-format on print just freaks some people out. I think print styles aren't as common because it is just not what people seem to want, they want to print what they see on the screen exactly as it appears. Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications and Public Affairs +1 519 888 4567 x33874 [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Waterloo Waterloo, ON, Canada, N2L 3G1 http://www.uwaterloo.ca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Hi Jesse, You wrote: The University of Waterloo has print CSS ... ... not printing something that is totally useless on paper - navigation, search box, etc. One of the problems with it ... a lot of internal folks had a hard time figuring out why what was on the screen was not what was coming out of their printer. LOL! I take it, by internal folks you mean faculty types with, as one would expect, an education somewhat beyond a high school diploma. Not much hope for us external folks, then, is there? -- Regards, Gene Falck [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
CK wrote: Hi, After browsing some favored CSS sites, some by Standards Evangelist, there seems to be a decline in the use of print styles. Has some movement escaped my research? Decline? There are only two truly decent print styles I've ever seen, ala and bbc news. Every wonderful article I've ever read about print styles is all but illegible in physical form. It's a shame because if I know I'm going to be reading for over 3 minutes I far prefer to have physical copy. I would love to hear of other well-printed sites though. I strongly believe in css for print but have seen far too few good examples of it. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Look at http://www.tsa.ind.br they have print styles, and also a php print preview, using the print CSS. Barney Carroll escreveu: CK wrote: Hi, After browsing some favored CSS sites, some by Standards Evangelist, there seems to be a decline in the use of print styles. Has some movement escaped my research? Decline? There are only two truly decent print styles I've ever seen, ala and bbc news. Every wonderful article I've ever read about print styles is all but illegible in physical form. It's a shame because if I know I'm going to be reading for over 3 minutes I far prefer to have physical copy. I would love to hear of other well-printed sites though. I strongly believe in css for print but have seen far too few good examples of it. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Raphael Martins wrote: Look at http://www.tsa.ind.br they have print styles, and also a php print preview, using the print CSS. The preview looks decent but the php causes my browser to tell me that 'the page was replaced while you were trying to print it'... Google uses a similar process to decent effect - the same policy of just printing the main frame content with the logo and title pasted in at the top. I suspect the best way to create serious (from a design-for-print standpoint) web-to-print systems is to install a php-based pdf generator, because at the end of the day no matter how sophisticated web technologies get, printing from within the browser is always going to leave a world's worth of factors out of your control. I believe Adobe have a very nice system based on this principle. Had a fun experience recently when developing my own print stylesheet whereby my overflow:hidden properties caused the print to be limited to one page no matter what. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
The preview looks decent but the php causes my browser to tell me that 'the page was replaced while you were trying to print it'... Google uses a similar process to decent effect - the same policy of just printing the main frame content with the logo and title pasted in at the top. I suspect the best way to create serious (from a design-for-print standpoint) web-to-print systems is to install a php-based pdf generator, because at the end of the day no matter how sophisticated web technologies get, printing from within the browser is always going to leave a world's worth of factors out of your control. I believe Adobe have a very nice system based on this principle. Had a fun experience recently when developing my own print stylesheet whereby my overflow:hidden properties caused the print to be limited to one page no matter what. Regards, Barney Raphael Martins wrote: Look at http://www.tsa.ind.br they have print styles, and also a php print preview, using the print CSS. Barney Carroll escreveu: CK wrote: Hi, After browsing some favored CSS sites, some by Standards Evangelist, there seems to be a decline in the use of print styles. Has some movement escaped my research? Decline? There are only two truly decent print styles I've ever seen, ala and bbc news. Every wonderful article I've ever read about print styles is all but illegible in physical form. It's a shame because if I know I'm going to be reading for over 3 minutes I far prefer to have physical copy. I would love to hear of other well-printed sites though. I strongly believe in css for print but have seen far too few good examples of it. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Barney Carroll Text Matters Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ___ phone +44 (0)118 918 2382 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://www.textmatters.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Look at http://www.tsa.ind.br they have print styles, and also a php print preview, using the print CSS. I did that on my site years ago using ASP to find out *later* that browsers already had a Print Preview option :-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
The print preview uses my print styles...but some users don´t even look at it, because of the page´s colours and images. :D Thierry Koblentz escreveu: Look at http://www.tsa.ind.br they have print styles, and also a php print preview, using the print CSS. I did that on my site years ago using ASP to find out *later* that browsers already had a Print Preview option :-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
I have intended to build as many of my websites as I can that have printer friendly pages by using print styles. I have a couple of sites that I am particularly pleased with: http://escendency.com/study1.html This page prints out the content of the links that open as popup windows. http://atlasrail.co.uk This website uses php extensively but facilitates printer friendly pages only through style sheets. -- Chris Price On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 03:43 pm, Raphael Martins wrote: I would love to hear of other well-printed sites though. I strongly believe in css for print but have seen far too few good examples of it *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
I would love to hear of other well-printed sites though. I strongly believe in css for print but have seen far too few good examples of it. You may try http://grupoamnet.net. You may even select the print-style as alternate style-sheet in FireFox. Ciao Niels *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
I suspect the best way to create serious (from a design-for-print standpoint) web-to-print systems is to install a php-based pdf generator, because at the end of the day no matter how sophisticated web technologies get, printing from within the browser is always going to leave a world's worth of factors out of your control. I believe Adobe have a very nice system based on this principle. I thought part of the whole web standards thing was joyously embracing the lack of control, and creating styles, for various formats (screen, print, etc) with the fore-knowledge of variety of devices? If we have embraced a lack of control on screen, why not also embrace the lack of control for print? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles
Hi, After browsing some favored CSS sites, some by Standards Evangelist, there seems to be a decline in the use of print styles. Has some movement escaped my research? Hi, don't know about the Standards Evangelist but I do think people in general just haven't got there yet. For me, at least, there was a whole lot to learn before I approached making separate styles for print and I've just been doing it routinely very lately. That said, here's one I did just about a month ago that I'm particularly proud of and I just know that probably no one has seen this except me and the woman I did it for, so a bit of a chance to show it off (it was a conversion from an Excel sheet). As I look at it though, I also realize its probably not accessible for a screen reader, sigh ... the ones that other organizations did in Maine, though, were pretty much accessible to no one! http://www.katahdininstitute.org/scorecard-hs-lastname.html and here's one that I like, too. http://mainehumanities.org/onebook/books.html this whole area should print well. :) i got rid of the menu completely, substituted a black and white logo and took out color, etc. There was an issue with the logo substitution on a Mac in Firefox (if I'm remembering right) sort of shadowing itself. Ended up letting it go just because it would effect so few people. In looking at both of these, I see things I wish I had done differently, that's one of the problems with this work, one never seems to be able to get it perfect and i quickly become dissatisfied with work from only a few months ago. Anyway, I would like to see more discussion about print styles on these lists and problems/issues with the various browsers. cheers Donna -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
