RE: [WSG] XML driven websites
Relevant to the thread but not this message exactly - Apache Forrest (forrest.apache.org) is an XML Publishing Framework. Converts XDoc to (X)HTML. Worth a look for those considering using XML as a base Document format. Gav... -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Juergen Auer Sent: Friday, 5 January 2007 11:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] XML driven websites On 5 Jan 2007 at 13:44, David Dorward wrote: Client side XSLT isn't (generally) a great idea though. You do want search engines to be able to read the menu, don't you? All search engines and most of the browsers (all instead of IE6) get the Html-Version. The Xml-Version is blocked by the robots.txt. Users with the IE6 and activated JavaScript are redirected to the Xml- Version. Other can use the link at the page Xml-Praxis: Diese Website there is a german description. The Domain exists since 2003 in these two versions, only my Unicode- Database is plain XHtml (no Xml-Version). And I have enough of google- traffic, this may not be visible using google.com. Its easier to manage the complete domain, its like a small content management system. Regards Juergen Auer Jürgen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ Web-Datenbanken zum Mieten Friedenstr. 37, 10 249 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 / 420 200 60 Fax: +49 (0)30 / 420 198 19 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.5/616 - Release Date: 1/4/2007 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 08:58:55AM +0100, Mihael Zadravec wrote: I started using xml for certain parts of my online applications... Now, here is the question... If I would create a whole website using xml, would it be standard compliant? If you're serving up a proprietary XML dialect, then it would conform to the XML standard, but would still be a proprietary XML format. In more practical terms, you'd cut out a lot of support from clients, including most (if not all) search engine indexing bots. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Is this referring to the actual page being xml or source of data? Reason I ask is that I find I am increasingly using xml for data source and parsing it for webpages. Which seems the best way to go really, as the source of the data matters not, and the result is standard xhtml. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Mihael Zadravec To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: [WSG] XML driven websites Hello list! I started using xml for certain parts of my online applications... Now, here is the question... If I would create a whole website using xml, would it be standard compliant? thank you! Mihael (Slovenija) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
so, what you are saying, is that if I would code website with xml, search engines ( like google ), will not index the site as good as it would if it would be coded with xhtml? On 1/5/07, David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 08:58:55AM +0100, Mihael Zadravec wrote: I started using xml for certain parts of my online applications... Now, here is the question... If I would create a whole website using xml, would it be standard compliant? If you're serving up a proprietary XML dialect, then it would conform to the XML standard, but would still be a proprietary XML format. In more practical terms, you'd cut out a lot of support from clients, including most (if not all) search engine indexing bots. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
hm... actual page being xml. On 1/5/07, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this referring to the actual page being xml or source of data? Reason I ask is that I find I am increasingly using xml for data source and parsing it for webpages. Which seems the best way to go really, as the source of the data matters not, and the result is standard xhtml. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - *From:* Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Friday, January 05, 2007 2:58 AM *Subject:* [WSG] XML driven websites Hello list! I started using xml for certain parts of my online applications... Now, here is the question... If I would create a whole website using xml, would it be standard compliant? thank you! Mihael (Slovenija) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Quoth Bruce at 01/05/07 18:51... Is this referring to the actual page being xml or source of data? Reason I ask is that I find I am increasingly using xml for data source and parsing it for webpages. Which seems the best way to go really, as the source of the data matters not, and the result is standard xhtml. Agreed. One can use the most obscure XML internally but, with the right XSLT transformation, can turn it in to good XHTML (or even HTML). M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/05/07 18:57... hm... actual page being xml. Using anything but XHTML or HTML as the language served would cause major accessibility issues, especially for older user agents that do not understand XML and would not be able to refer to a DTD. Certainly, use it internally, but only serve what is being expected (XHTML or HTML), unless you have total control of your audience, such as in an intranet situation. M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 09:25:06AM +0100, Mihael Zadravec wrote: so, what you are saying, is that if I would code website with xml, search engines ( like google ), will not index the site as good as it would if it would be coded with xhtml? If you serve application/xml or text/html then AFAIK all search engines will ignore it and you limit support to clients with XSLT support. If you serve application/xhtml+xml then AFAIK all search engines will ignore it (although some might have added support since I last checked) and you limit support to clients which support XHTML (which does *not* include Internet Explorer 7 or earlier). If you serve text/html then pretty much everything will be able to cope. In general, XML must not be served as text/html. The main exception is that XHTML 1.0 can be served as text/html under some circumstances, but last time anyone tried to find out what those were, there was a large discussion on [EMAIL PROTECTED] but (as far as I remember) no firm conclusions. The spec itself is unclear on the subject, and Appendix C is ugly. Serving XHTML 1.0 as text/html is a hack that depends on an incorrect implementation of HTML in clients in the first place. HTML 4.01 should only be served as text/html. Of course, there is nothing stopping you from using a proprietary XML format, or XHTML, or some other standard format that uses XML to author and/or store you data in. You can transform it to HTML at some point before the server delivers the data to the client. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
What would than be the right xslt transformation? Is than the source code of a web document xml or xhtml? Sorry for strange questions, but I am a bit confused :) On 1/5/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth Bruce at 01/05/07 18:51... Is this referring to the actual page being xml or source of data? Reason I ask is that I find I am increasingly using xml for data source and parsing it for webpages. Which seems the best way to go really, as the source of the data matters not, and the result is standard xhtml. Agreed. One can use the most obscure XML internally but, with the right XSLT transformation, can turn it in to good XHTML (or even HTML). M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/05/07 19:12... What would than be the right xslt transformation? Is than the source code of a web document xml or xhtml? Sorry for strange questions, but I am a bit confused :) If it is convenient for you to handle your data as XML, you can use any XML vocabulary you like, as this is purely internal. When you are presenting your content to the world, you need to change it to a form that the world recognises. As not all user agents (browsers) are able to handle XML stylesheets (XSLT), you need to write one that will transform your XML into XHTML; what your Web Server sends out would only be XHTML. Hope this makes it less confusing... Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 09:42:30AM +0100, Mihael Zadravec wrote: What would than be the right xslt transformation? It would depend on your desired input and output formats. Is than the source code of a web document xml or xhtml? Yes. The document you start with would be XML, and possibly XHTML (which would still be XML). The XSLT would be an XML document too. The document you serve to clients would be HTML, or possibly (but not usually ideally) XHTML (and if its XHTML then it is also XML). -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Actually it does... thank you. I am reading Myers book from Sitepoint No Nonsense XML Web Development With PHP and I needed to clear some thing out... So as I see, in chapter 4. he explains how to generate website using xml and php... and the final code presentet to browser is xhtml... so that is it. thank you! On 1/5/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/05/07 19:12... What would than be the right xslt transformation? Is than the source code of a web document xml or xhtml? Sorry for strange questions, but I am a bit confused :) If it is convenient for you to handle your data as XML, you can use any XML vocabulary you like, as this is purely internal. When you are presenting your content to the world, you need to change it to a form that the world recognises. As not all user agents (browsers) are able to handle XML stylesheets (XSLT), you need to write one that will transform your XML into XHTML; what your Web Server sends out would only be XHTML. Hope this makes it less confusing... Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Matthew Smith wrote: Agreed. One can use the most obscure XML internally but, with the right XSLT transformation, can turn it in to good XHTML (or even HTML). M Yuppers, or for us simple guys, (referring to myself and lack of time/patience/knowledge), I use the magpie parser on php4, much much prefer using SimpleXML in php5. Actually, just amazed myself by creating a SinpleXML parsed page from an rss file in about 20 minutes...methinks this is going to become much more commonplace in the field Bruce -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
XML is a set of rules for building a language, it's not a language itself, so it doesn't really make sense to send XML to the browser without choosing a particular XML language. XHTML, DocBook, RSS, TEI and XTM are just a few of the thousands of XML-compliant languages. Some languages use title to express a heading, others use h1 and others simply h. Of course it's pointless to publish any XML-compliant language if the users can't read it. If the software doesn't understand that your language uses link url='' for a hyperlink then it won't be able to do what you expect (it won't be able to show people a clickable link, or tell a search engine about another page). On the web, search engines do not understand much other than HTML (sure some have support for RSS, and non-XML formats like DOC/PDF, but HTML is the dominant format). Modern browsers (IE5.5+, Firefox, Safari) understand a conversion system called 'XML Processing Instructions' which allow conversion from one XML format to another via XSLT. So a browser that doesn't understand DocBook XML can follow the conversion instructions in XSLT and make HTML. The user sees the same page, and many accessibility features (keyboard access) will behave as normal. That's why these example pages have their source in a foreign XML format, but the browser can display the page as expected. http://alazanto.org/xml/style2.xml http://alazanto.org/xml/style3.xml Search engines and older browsers however do not understand XML Processing Instructions (PI) and so sending any XML format with a PI isn't recommended. Also accessibility software that taps into the source may not understand non-HTML languages. If you're using XML and XSLT on the server though and only send out HTML then the user will never know and there won't be any problems. XML driven websites presumably also include ones that just use XML internally. Server-side XML processing can either be ad-hoc transformations (XSLT, STX), or more powerful techniques like XML Pipelines, http://norman.walsh.name/2004/06/20/pipelines .Matthew Cruickshank http://docvert.org Convert your MS Word documents to XML and any HTML. It's Open Source. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
Hi Mihael, On 5 Jan 2007 at 8:58, Mihael Zadravec wrote: I started using xml for certain parts of my online applications... Now, here is the question... If I would create a whole website using xml, would it be standard compliant? if you use Xml in the background and create Html using a Xsl-File, then you can create it standard compilant. My complete website exists in two versions - Xml/Xsl at http://www.sql-und-xml.de/xml/index.xml and Html at http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ The Html-Version is created using an own freeware tool (xml-batch- converter), this creates static Html-files. Using the IE6 or IE7 shows all pages complete. FF/Opera have some limitations. Using Xml/Xsl allows a lot of things without PHP/Perl: The menu (all filenames, link content, accesskey-definitions) is outsourced into a single file. Its like a template - without any programming language. Regards, Juergen Auer Jürgen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ Web-Datenbanken zum Mieten Friedenstr. 37, 10 249 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 / 420 200 60 Fax: +49 (0)30 / 420 198 19 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 02:33:24PM +0100, Juergen Auer wrote: Using Xml/Xsl allows a lot of things without PHP/Perl: The menu (all filenames, link content, accesskey-definitions) is outsourced into a single file. Its like a template - without any programming language. XSL is a programming language, its turing complete at least. Client side XSLT isn't (generally) a great idea though. You do want search engines to be able to read the menu, don't you? Preprocessing solutions work well if you have no server side programming environment available on the server. They also have other advantages, such as making it easier to handle cache control headers. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML driven websites
On 5 Jan 2007 at 13:44, David Dorward wrote: Client side XSLT isn't (generally) a great idea though. You do want search engines to be able to read the menu, don't you? All search engines and most of the browsers (all instead of IE6) get the Html-Version. The Xml-Version is blocked by the robots.txt. Users with the IE6 and activated JavaScript are redirected to the Xml- Version. Other can use the link at the page Xml-Praxis: Diese Website there is a german description. The Domain exists since 2003 in these two versions, only my Unicode- Database is plain XHtml (no Xml-Version). And I have enough of google- traffic, this may not be visible using google.com. Its easier to manage the complete domain, its like a small content management system. Regards Juergen Auer Jürgen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ Web-Datenbanken zum Mieten Friedenstr. 37, 10 249 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0)30 / 420 200 60 Fax: +49 (0)30 / 420 198 19 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
