Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner]

Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers"  wrote:

> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped
> the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect
> all the sub projects.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
> conversations about this would be great.
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal 
> wrote:
>
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner  w
>> rote:
>>
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
>>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>> about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>> that a month ago
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>> release announcements.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what
>>> that list is for).
>>>
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
 “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

 From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
 separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
 to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

 Ralph

 On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner  wrote:

 The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
 that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
 the current state of the vote:

 log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
 d...@logging.apache.org

 Matt Sicker: +1
 Ralph Goers: +1
 Stefan Bodewig: +1
 Sven Rautenverg: -1
 Thorsten Schöning: -0
 Ivan Habunek: -0
 Dominik Psenner: +1
 Remko Popma: +1
 Mikael Ståldal: +0

 Totals so far:
 +1: 5
 +0: 1
 -0: 2
 -1: 1

 log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
 u...@logging.apache.org

 Matt Sicker: -1
 Ralph Goers: +1
 Stefan Bodewig: -1
 Sven Rautenverg: -1
 Thorsten Schöning: -0
 Ivan Habunek: -0
 Dominik Psenner: +1
 Remko Popma: +1
 Mikael Ståldal: -1

 Totals so far:
 +1: 3
 +0: 0
 -0: 2
 -1: 4

 Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

 On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:

 I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
 half of them less than five minutes ago.

 This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
 lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

 log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
 d...@logging.apache.org
 log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
 u...@logging.apache.org

 commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

 The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
 the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
 distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

 [java]
 [net]
 [cxx]
 [php]

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers]

This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the 
other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the 
sub projects.

Ralph


> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary 
> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his 
> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
> 
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't 
> really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin 
> systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations 
> about this would be great.
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal  > wrote:
> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we 
> support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner  > wrote:
> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar 
> configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging 
> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the 
> form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all 
> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev 
> mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to 
> the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all 
> of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two 
> user mailing lists I follow:
> 
> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about 
> two weeks ago
> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a 
> month ago
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of 
>> general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release 
>> announcements.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause 
>>> any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev 
>>> lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe 
>>> to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is 
>>> for).
>>> 
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers >> > wrote:
>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are 
>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>> 
>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate 
>>> isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be 
>>> discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
 On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner >>> > wrote:
 
 The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I 
 didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the 
 current state of the vote:
 
 log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
 d...@logging.apache.org 
 Matt Sicker: +1
 Ralph Goers: +1
 Stefan Bodewig: +1
 Sven Rautenverg: -1
 Thorsten Schöning: -0
 Ivan Habunek: -0
 Dominik Psenner: +1
 Remko Popma: +1
 Mikael Ståldal: +0
 
 Totals so far:
 +1: 5
 +0: 1
 -0: 2
 -1: 1
 
 log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
 u...@logging.apache.org 
 
 Matt Sicker: -1
 Ralph Goers: +1
 Stefan Bodewig: -1
 Sven Rautenverg: -1
 Thorsten Schöning: -0
 Ivan Habunek: -0
 Dominik Psenner: +1
 Remko Popma: +1
 Mikael Ståldal: -1
 
 Totals so far:
 +1: 3
 +0: 0
 -0: 2
 -1: 4
 Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
 
 On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half 
> of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> d...@logging.apache.org 
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> u...@logging.apache.org 
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner]

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very 
similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache 
Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification 
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means 
all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good 
reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same 
use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing 
lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just 
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:


log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that 
about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before 
that a month ago


Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be 
of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just 
release announcements.


Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker > wrote:


Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't 
cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should 
merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all 
devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't 
know what that list is for).


On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers > wrote:


You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things
that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph


On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->d...@logging.apache.org 


Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ 
->u...@logging.apache.org 

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:

I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
d...@logging.apache.org 
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@ -> u...@logging.apache.org


commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any
future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot.
The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker mailto:boa...@gmail.com>>







--
Matt Sicker mailto:boa...@gmail.com>>