[BAROQUE-LUTE] Letter to the Editor
On Mar 2, 2008, at 9:36 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: For those of us who don't have (and who have never had) teachers, this is a great way to learn. Stephen's comment brings to mind something I have been thinking about for some time: how many of us in the lute world can claim to have studied with a teacher for any substantial length of time? Is the idea of studying an instrument with someone an impractical notion nowadays? It seems to me that most of the instruction on the lute, at least that most people talk about, is received at seminar workshop weeks, master-class weekends etc., mostly in informal settings. It's a bit like the folk music world: mention almost anything that constitutes a formal background in music, and the cry goes up: I don't need that! I don't need to know theory. I don't need notation. I don't need to know this, I don't need to know that. (in the lute world we do know history, I'll give us that!) If you're an independent music teacher, I'm sure you have heard people say, I don't want to learn music. I just want to learn the (fill in the name of the instrument). In the old days of learning classical guitar in the 60's, there was very little opportunity to study with anyone unless you happened to live near a big city, and there just happened to be a teacher nearby who could give you instruction. Today the infrastructure is in place to study the guitar formally: national- and state-certified educators with advanced degrees and considerable performing experience are working in colleges and universities throughout the world teaching music on the guitar. I wonder if the lute world will ever advance that far. We don't seem to have moved much further forward in developing this type of infrastructure for lute-related studies than we were 35 years ago. Lutenists may not be as thick on the ground yet as guitarists, but there are more and more of us every year, and we're getting higher visibility than ever before. Perhaps the movers and shakers in the lute world need to address this. As far as I know, there are very few places one can go to receive a formal education on the lute, and even fewer to learn how to teach the lute. If I wanted to become a guitar teacher, a piano teacher, even at my age it's obvious where I would go for my education. But if I wanted to become a lute teacher where would I go? Where do I look to find somebody who can teach me to teach the lute? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Letter to the Editor
On Mar 3, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: How much did lute players learn about music (not just lute playing) in the Renaissance and Baroque periods? They learned what other musicians learned, and were educated in the same ways. In the renaissance, they'd learn singing, the practice of hexachords, modal theory, counterpoint and enough of the seven liberal arts to understand the philosophical underpinnings of music. See, for example, the first page of the dialogue that begins Robinson's Schoole of Musicke. In the 18th century, they learned continuo practice as well. They certainly didn't occupy the sort of peripheral position that classical guitarists occupied in the 20th century. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ode for St Cecilia's Day
Original lute music by Handel and Mozart on the same day! What a thrill! How disappointing to look at the Neue Mozart Ausgabe ( http://dme.mozarteum.at/DME/nma/start.php?l=) and discover that the Mozart lute cadenza is crossed out in the manuscript and that 'it remains uncertain whether it is by Mozart himself'. I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though. Browsing further through the Munich library website I was delighted to find a string trio by Francesco Zappa. I don't believe in reincarnation but http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb3239/images/index.html P On 02/03/2008, Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mozart added a lute part to the flute ad libitum in the end: more broken chords. I guess this is Mozart's collected output of lute music!? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty --
[LUTE] Re: Letter to the Editor
Good email, David. I had four lute lessons, two from Jacob Lindberg, two from David Miller. Learned enough to realise that these guys could play better than they could teach. Been stumbling on my own for years now. Made my own mistakes. Found my own voice (for better or worse). I think it would be a shame if we started to emulate classical guitar pedagogy. Every year there are AMAZING guitarists coming out of these institutions, far more than we ever hear about. There is no work for 99.99per cent of them. Most of the ones I've heard sound like wannabe David Russell's. I like the fact that every lute player sounds different. The less streamlining the better, IMHO. We can learn a lot from these newsgroups, I know I have. With a little less bitching, a little more sharing, we could all learn a lot more from each other. Especially now more players are utilising video. I intend to try it myself sometime. How much did lute players learn about music (not just lute playing) in the Renaissance and Baroque periods? As for your last paragraph - there are of course already quite a few institutions with a formal lute programme. They tend to be in capital cities. Do we really NEED more? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings
On Mar 3, 2008, at 5:16 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: ...Gesture is important in all music, be it blues, jazz, or French Baroque, and I feel that composers did not notate it simply because it was hard to capture on paper without performers making it sound too automated, Much like swing in jazz. We have a big problem here. Ever listened to classical musicians playing jazz? The notes might be right, but the feel is different from a 'true' jazzer, someone who has grown up with the whole sound world. But students of jazz can listen to recordings, go to gigs, have lessons with these players. We can't. And when it comes to something as subtle as dotting in French baroque, we naturally find it very difficult, and don't necessarily know when we have got it 'right'. Jazz musicians have their own issues with period performance practice when they play be-bop. Even with all the recordings available, and the influence of bandleaders and soloists from back in the day, there is still plenty of disagreement on how be-bop should be played. So we have to be practical. Experiment. Play what we feel is right. Let's not forget Lully and his mace. I think we can do whatever we like between the pulses, but the pulses themselves have to be rock solid. Baroque music is supposed to reflect the architecture of the day. Look at Versailles: what does it look like on the outside? what does it look like on the inside? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute Bream Rubio?
Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
Looks like it's in excellent condition. I've never seen an 8-course with a treble rider and both 1st and 2nd single strings. David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mar 3, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
My old Steiner furniture lute had a similar treble rider, and I've seen them on other instruments of that type and vintage. Perhaps they got the idea from the Bream instrument. It had only seven courses and a single chanterelle, though. Guy -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 1:06 PM To: Anthony Hind Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? Looks like it's in excellent condition. I've never seen an 8-course with a treble rider and both 1st and 2nd single strings. David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mar 3, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Typical of Lutes before the advent of traditional historically accurate instruments. When I went to Oakland University the school owned a Rubio and it was a dog musically. This was in the mid 70's and apparently this Rubio was more historically correct and did not have the metal frets. - Original Message - From: Guy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'David Rastall' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Anthony Hind' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? My old Steiner furniture lute had a similar treble rider, and I've seen them on other instruments of that type and vintage. Perhaps they got the idea from the Bream instrument. It had only seven courses and a single chanterelle, though. Guy -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 1:06 PM To: Anthony Hind Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? Looks like it's in excellent condition. I've never seen an 8-course with a treble rider and both 1st and 2nd single strings. David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mar 3, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date: 3/3/2008 10:01 AM
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
Roger Traversac on the French lute list said he bought almost the same Rubio lute for 3000 francs (448 Euro ) in 1997/1999. It was on sale through the magazine Les cahiers de la guitare. Anthony Le 3 mars 08 =E0 22:05, David Rastall a ecrit : Looks like it's in excellent condition. I've never seen an 8- course with a treble rider and both 1st and 2nd single strings. David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mar 3, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
On Mar 3, 2008, at 4:24 PM, vance wood wrote: No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Hi Vance, Yes I noticed the frets. As soon as I saw the back of the neck I said, what's wrong with this picture? I like Rubio's monogram BTW. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
No one can argue that this is not a beautiful instrument, and if Bream owned it I am sure it has a wonderful sound, if not a bit Guitar like. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? On Mar 3, 2008, at 4:24 PM, vance wood wrote: No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Hi Vance, Yes I noticed the frets. As soon as I saw the back of the neck I said, what's wrong with this picture? I like Rubio's monogram BTW. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date: 3/3/2008 10:01 AM
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
On 3/3/08 19:57, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html I actually played this instrument, or at least tried to, many years ago. Sometime in the late 1980s it went to Sotheby's and whilst viewing another instrument I spotted the Rubio. I recall it being quite heavy, the metal frets felt like guitar frets. It was well made but for clearly a guitarist - heavy strings with robust sound for a concert hall - no compromise. I was playing a 62cm lute at the time and remember the Rubio being longer. hdf chords were a struggle, fbd chords were impossible on it (for me!) DF
[LUTE] Re: Letter to the Editor
On Mar 3, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I think it would be a shame if we started to emulate classical guitar pedagogy. Every year there are AMAZING guitarists coming out of these institutions, far more than we ever hear about. There is no work for 99.99per cent of them. Most of the ones I've heard sound like wannabe David Russell's. Well, there's nothing actually, y'know, wrong? with being able to play like David Russell; after all, the guy *can* play the paint off the walls! ;-) I like the fact that every lute player sounds different. The less streamlining the better, IMHO. In Baroque lute, purely a personal preference, I do look for some amount of standardization. DR, to some extent playing the devil's advocate... [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
- Original Message From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 3, 2008 5:35:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? On Mar 3, 2008, at 4:24 PM, vance wood wrote: No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Hi Vance, Yes I noticed the frets. As soon as I saw the back of the neck I said, what's wrong with this picture? I like Rubio's monogram BTW. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
Pushed the button way too soon on my last post. Sorry! What I meant to say was-- A couple other guitar-like qualities include the classical guitar-like bridge, complete with saddle raised toward the bass end, the fingerboard height is actually above the level of the belly, and to my eye, the bridge looks like it's set a little far up the belly. Interesting treatment of the rose and back of neck decoration, though. Steve - Original Message From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 3, 2008 5:35:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio? On Mar 3, 2008, at 4:24 PM, vance wood wrote: No one has mentioned, though I suppose some have noticed, it has metal frets. Hi Vance, Yes I noticed the frets. As soon as I saw the back of the neck I said, what's wrong with this picture? I like Rubio's monogram BTW. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Bream Rubio?
Perhaps it was guitar size. Lute makers are constantly telling us that 60cm lutes as standard are well below the size of standard guitars. Another point noted, the first two single strings, obviously do appear on 11c lutes, and also we often compromise on the 9c type lute that frequently did have a double 1c set-up. Roger Traversac, actually bought the Rubio for a guiraist friend, who wanted to play in the Bream manner. Anthony Le 4 mars 08 à 00:02, Dante Ferrara a écrit : On 3/3/08 19:57, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Lutists One small advantage of playing withouth the RH little finger on the lute belly, is a perfectly clean lute with absolutely no trace on the soundboard. http://www.theguitarsalon.com/guitars/Rubio_1967Lute.html This is a pity, if like me you hope to study the trace of lutists on the soundboard of their lutes, but I suppose it is good for the value, so long as you are also Julian Bream, and I must admit the woodwork does look superb. I suppose this David Rubio lute, must be a collector's item. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html I actually played this instrument, or at least tried to, many years ago. Sometime in the late 1980s it went to Sotheby's and whilst viewing another instrument I spotted the Rubio. I recall it being quite heavy, the metal frets felt like guitar frets. It was well made but for clearly a guitarist - heavy strings with robust sound for a concert hall - no compromise. I was playing a 62cm lute at the time and remember the Rubio being longer. hdf chords were a struggle, fbd chords were impossible on it (for me!) DF
