[LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Music from the 16th century is an interesting area as far as attributions are concerned. It is often difficult to distinguish between composer, arranger, intabulator, and publisher. Did Dowland compose My Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home, was the piece by Byrd, or did the piece exist before either of them put their gloss on it? On the question of arrangements, I would like to know more about how lute composers composed. I suspect that people like Dowland would have composed pieces in four or five parts in score, before arranging them as lute solos, with divisions and ornaments added last. I don't think they would have started with a lute on their lap and an empty tablature stave in front of them, but I could be wrong. I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
There were the wax tablets, but it seems likely that there were multiple systems for compositions. Sketches on paper show, obviously, that paper was used for sketches. These systems could have been used in combination Surely the keyboard was used by many composers Dowland most likely composed for a consort setting, with little or no divisions added. Dowland's self proclaimed reliance on the hexachord seems to be hold up under analysis Various charts and tables existed for transnotation. The good composers could easily hold four or even five parts in their heads, whether they then chose to sketch the material we may never know. The ornaments for almost all lute music can be found in the various tutors, although a complete picture requires the supposition of a missing english tutor or tutors whose contents can be formally derived from extant parts. The application of the ornaments invariably yeilds clues as to the author of the divisions, owing to the way in which the simple rules of voice leading are observed or unobserved. dt At 03:03 AM 6/8/2008, you wrote: Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Music from the 16th century is an interesting area as far as attributions are concerned. It is often difficult to distinguish between composer, arranger, intabulator, and publisher. Did Dowland compose My Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home, was the piece by Byrd, or did the piece exist before either of them put their gloss on it? On the question of arrangements, I would like to know more about how lute composers composed. I suspect that people like Dowland would have composed pieces in four or five parts in score, before arranging them as lute solos, with divisions and ornaments added last. I don't think they would have started with a lute on their lap and an empty tablature stave in front of them, but I could be wrong. I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dyeing/loading
Le 7 juin 08 à 21:02, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear Jaroslaw, I agree with everything you say - but my problem has always been that (a) I wanted to know how the old guys really did it and (b) I didn't like any of the options that were available. I admit that (a) is not necessarily relevant to modern audiences but (b) is a practical matter which impinges directly on the whole business of making music. Both (a) and (b) are unresolved, though I find myself moderately convinced by the loading hypothesis, and simultaneously sceptical about the practicalities, unless we all want to die from cinnabar poisoning Best to All, Martin Dear Martin As you all know by now, I would be quite incapable of putting it so succinctly. I also want to know how the old ones did things, and in any case have always loved archeology and recontruction. Of course I am less moderately convinced than you are by loading, but I do agree with the last point. The same problem occurs for restoring the hall of mirrors in Versaille. Luckily there were some spares, so no one had to inhale the mercury fumes. Perhaps some medical report on Saturnism in 17th century lute players could be added as evidence to string loading; although the lutists in question might just as well have been prone to licking the lead paint off the walls (apparently lead, is sweet, and that is why such paint is a danger to children). Fortinately, for me, Mimmo has not taken authenticity to that extreme, as I have just added a new Venice loaded string to my 7c Gerle with good results. Strangely, the sound of all the other strings has opened up, and have gained sustain. I suppose there is less impedance at the bridge, because of the very supple Venice core, and the Loaded string is also much more true than the previous string. Thus sympathetic resonances may be playing more of a role. Point (b), we all hope might be solved by research into point (a), loaded strings (and other historical solutions, low tension hightwist), I hope will allow us to forget wire wounds and the problem of thick Pistoys; Although Charles Besnainou, just as unsatisfied as yourself about wire-wounds and very thick Pistoys, went along the modern route of acoustic models and analysis, in his laboratory at the LAM, Laboratoire Acoustique Musicale, and has come up with some interesting solutions, that can be tried by synthetics users. Regards Anthony Jarosław Lipski wrote: Anthony, I am afraid you over interpreted my statement. Actually I wasn't really 100% serious writing it - maybe half serious.or so. But obviously there is some truth in every joke. How can we say things for 100% if we lack convincing evidence? As I said we have variety of strings at our disposal, we have technologies that were unconceivable for the old ones and whether we use them or not is a matter of taste I suppose. I may like plain gut, somebody else may prefer loaded strings.fine! Let's make music! The public will asses what sounds good. But we should make a living music of our days (don't get me wrong again - I am not saying that the history doesn't matter, no, no). This is however not a museum of the dead music - musical fossils. We use the new historical findings to make us aware of how this music could really sound some hundreds years ago, but I think this is not a musical attitude to see somebody's performance only in a historical context. We have only hypothesis now. So presumably someone believes that the loaded strings really existed. But what will happen if somebody else proves they never ever existed? Shall we classify somebody's performance as not HIP and in consequence not worthy listening? As an example do listen to Magdalena Kozena singing Haendel aria Oh! Had I Jubal's Lyre and then interpretation of the same piece by Victoria de los Angeles (both on Youtube). One is more or less historically correct the other not so. But what would you like to listen to? Probably each one of us would answer differently. And this shows that historical correctness is not the most important factor in music making (I stress it - not the MOST important). This is why I said - let's make music!!! Now, back to the strings. I really have a big esteem for people that make a painstaking efforts in order to recreate the facts from the past. Nevertheless many questions still wait for answering. Meanwhile I wouldn't hesitate to get the best sounding strings for my lute. And this BEST SOUNDING probably will mean something different for each of us. Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:53 PM To: damian dlugolecki; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: dyeing/loading I can understand some lutists considering the historic question unimportant. I am thinking of what Jaroslaw said in an earlier
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Stewart, I expect Roman will answer properly, but Sautscheck is the surname of his grand mother. I saw a tomb with this name on it in Prague, in the cemetery of important persons, apparently it's a common name. In Italian all this ( wondering about the hidden meanings of it etc) is called dietrologia , no idea how to translate it into proper English. Look in the archives, he told the story in past mails to the list. Donatella P.S. I did not read the paper you are talking about, the message did not get to me. http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Music from the 16th century is an interesting area as far as attributions are concerned. It is often difficult to distinguish between composer, arranger, intabulator, and publisher. Did Dowland compose My Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home, was the piece by Byrd, or did the piece exist before either of them put their gloss on it? On the question of arrangements, I would like to know more about how lute composers composed. I suspect that people like Dowland would have composed pieces in four or five parts in score, before arranging them as lute solos, with divisions and ornaments added last. I don't think they would have started with a lute on their lap and an empty tablature stave in front of them, but I could be wrong. I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. Meant PHONEbook. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. No such connotations known in German. Perhaps he heard a Denglish combination of G. Sau (sow) + E. check. Yet to German ears, there's no connotation to the name Sautschek at all. All that you can hear is that it probably stems from Bohemia or Poland (-ek), and that is by no means pejorative. -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
- Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. No such connotations known in German. Perhaps he heard a Denglish combination of G. Sau (sow) + E. check. Yet to German ears, there's no connotation to the name Sautschek at all. All that you can hear is that it probably stems from Bohemia or Poland (-ek), and that is by no means pejorative. Schade, it would have been a good point for Sautscheck's detractors Donatella -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dyeing/loading
Damian I suppose you do know the work of Partizio Barbieri, and I assume you do not agree with his findings about Roman and Neapolitan gut string ropes. Patrizio Barbieri: Roman and Neapolitan gut strings, 1550-1590, GSJ, May 2006, pp 176-7. PB appears to have shown that roped strings were already in use on musical instruments as from mid of the 15th century (Ugolino of Orvieto: 'Declaratio musicae disciplinae' Liber quintus, Capitulum IX: 'De cordarum seu nervorm instrumentalium subtilitate et grossitie'. 1430-40 ca.) This seems to be confirmed by the presence of orditori (i.e. wheels with three or four rotating hooks used to make ropes) in some 16th century roman stringmakers workshop inventories. See this etching of such a machine, I suppose, here, it is not one for making a gut rope, but they would be basically the same. http://www.aquilacorde.com/orditori.jpg Indeed, I made such a gut rope as the one at the front, with Charles Besnainou. I played the role of the middle man, that you can see on the etching above. I looked at the illustrations in the Syntagma Musicum and saw roped strings. Likewise I saw ropes when I came upon J B Oudry's 'Basse de viole et Cahier de Musique.' Even helical tile patters in the 72nd St IRT subway station looked like roped strings to me. But now I am convinced that the artists were merely depicting the natural refraction of light on a well twisted string. Charles showed me paintings that really do look like ropes on musical instruments, including one in which the rope is not tied to the bowed instruments string hole, but fixed with a hook. It is easy to understand how a rope might be hooked in this way (even if it is a little strange), but much more difficult to explain if it is a high twist. Now, my father-in-law taught me to recognize edible fungi; and I was surprised later to notice that I saw many more in the woods and fields than I did previously. I began to have an expert eye. On the other hand, I also did spy delicious mushrooms that turned out to be autumn leaves. I agree that ropes on paintings, might turned out to be like those Autumn leaves, if we were able to see the original. The human mind does look for patterns, and a man with a theory does often try to fit everything he sees into the pattern of his thoughts, but that does go for us all, you, Damian, just as much as me, or any other person interested in this topic. In historical linguistics, a linguist will, frequently, hypothesize a form that he has never seen or heard in the language. Generally, this form will be shown starred in historical studies, as you will see in the OED, for Early Germanic forms postulated for that early languages. The form (or rather set of forms) in question is postulated through a comparative study of the patterns of forms in related languages. The starred form will probably never be observed, but the more data that the linguist can gather that can only be accounted for by this form having existed, the better we consider the analysis. Historical reconstruction is perhaps, not quite like that; but the more indirect evidence we can find to back-up the hypothesis the safer it is, short of actually finding the thing itself. I agree, that just a few paintings of red strings, or rope-like shapes, would not make a hypothesis safe. The more indications we discover that tie up with the hypothesis, the safer it becomes. Perhaps, loaded strings should still be considered as starred forms, but that does not make the topic uninteresting and unworthy of discussion. Like Alexander B. I have just tried one of the new loaded strings, and very much liked it; but this is no proof of its historic authenticity. Although it does mean that there is positive fall-out from all this research, from which, I for one, am very glad to be able to profit. I have not had the good fortune to try one of your high twist strings, but I don't doubt that they are excellent. You also consider that this is as close as you can get at present to an authentic historic string. Yours may very well be the most authentic string around at the moment. Even then, we know that they are necessarily your interpretation, and different from actual historical strings. I would hope that historical string research will bring more openness to new- old sounds and string types, and not just turn into a politically- historically correct game from which none of us will gain very much. Of course, just as Darwinism does not show that everything new is better than everything old, we would not necessarily expect the inverse proposition to be any truer. I do just have the intuition that during the great period when intense lute-making and string- making coexisted, evolving together, and dragging each other along, surely some very interesting sympathetic formulas must have developed, on both
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] new POM - oops
Sorry I forgot to say, the new Piece of the Month is in the usual place: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm I also forgot to apologize for the lack of an MP3 for the second piece - I just felt it was too much of a handful to play on 9c, when it's written for 10. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Dear Donatella, Thanks for your message. I'm afraid I made the same old mistake of mixing up the various lists. Roman's message was to the Baroque Lute Net, and I accidentally replied to the Lute Net. His original message was: An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT It is quote a long paper, but there are some interesting things included. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Donatella Galletti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 11:12 To: Lute Net; Stewart McCoy Subject: [LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics Stewart, I expect Roman will answer properly, but Sautscheck is the surname of his grand mother. I saw a tomb with this name on it in Prague, in the cemetery of important persons, apparently it's a common name. In Italian all this ( wondering about the hidden meanings of it etc) is called dietrologia , no idea how to translate it into proper English. Look in the archives, he told the story in past mails to the list. Donatella P.S. I did not read the paper you are talking about, the message did not get to me. http://web.tiscali.it/awebd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/load ed/Demi-filé
Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/load ed/Demi-filé
Oh I may have misunderstood. I thought Segerman's calculations were with a rope, but if they were with a low twist then the results Mimmo and Segerman mention include Martyn's results at between 1,2kg and 1,5kg, Martyn is just at the higher side of this calculation. It remains that the drop in tension supposed by Mimmo relates to his considering that a rope would be used in this context, and due to the stretch the value would drop. Martyn is saying that a high twist can work at this level of tension, i.e. at 1,5kg. My question remains to Martyn, as previously stated. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?
- Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008 8:39 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make? To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu On Jun 6, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: My experiences with ironing goose quill, at least a split quill, have not been good. Maybe you should try removing it from the goose first. -- But that removes so much of the flavor. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: new POM - oops
Dear Martin, on your web page you say: Altogether it appears in nine sources Well, I have: Source Page/No.Title in source Schele 64/1 Corante Mercurij A[nn]o 1615. Schele 87/2 Courante Aegidius 99rCourante Basel F.IX.53 11r-12r Courante 402211v/3 [Cou]rant Aegidius122v-123r Courante Fuhrmann162/2 COurante 2. M. L. 25r/2 Corant 33748 I 29v Corandt Turin 5v-6r Courente Herbert 65r/1 Courante Saman Werl91r No Title VarietieQ2v Mounsier Saman his Coranto. / Coranto. 4 Moy 1631R2v Courante Rainer Martin Shepherd wrote: Sorry I forgot to say, the new Piece of the Month is in the usual place: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm I also forgot to apologize for the lack of an MP3 for the second piece - I just felt it was too much of a handful to play on 9c, when it's written for 10. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
--- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. Indeed, the inharmonicity is less (as Segerman in fact demonstrated many years ago) MH This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? I think you mistake my position if you think I'm uncritically advocating this sort of stringing, I merely wish to draw attention to it as an option to loaded and which can perhaps too easily be overlooked (some others have also made the same point). I have, however, strung a trial lute this way (a 9 course at 64cm in the old tuning C D F G c f a d g with the 9th down to C at A415). I'm not wholly satisfied with the result but this may well be because I devote insufficient continuous time to developing the necessary low tension technique (v close to bridge etc) since I use more 'normal' tensions for concert (ie mostly continuo) work. In fact my subjective preference continues to lean towards loaded basses but, as said, I think it important that we try to explore all reasonable avenues. MH PS I have no recording facilities! More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL
[LUTE] Palestrina's lute (was Musical Crimes etc)
On Jun 8, 2008, at 3:03 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. If you google palestrina lute mass into google (without the quotes) you should pull up a page of Jessie Ann Owens' The composer at work from Amazon that quotes letters about Palestrina using the lute to compose. Oor try this: http://books.google.com/books? id=9Xc_EXNgf00Cpg=PA293lpg=PA293dq=palestrina+lute +masssource=webots=cAz_AAI-amsig=PslpZZMII4v9Qh51ZArJ- t_YI60hl=en#PPA294,M1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double head ed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Thanks Martyn for these precisions. It seems a fair point to say that technique has to adapt to a string type. Indeed loaded strings also call for a change in technique. I have found that even with the loaded string on my 7c, very much as people have been saying of low tension strings, I need to move my thumb a little further back to have more control on the movement of this string. That is probably because the thin Venice core remains quite stretchy. It is not what I would call Baroque thumb-out (the little finger for the moment has not moved very far back), but the thumb itself seems to go further back away from the index, which is not quite so able to follow. This could perhaps become more extreme if I add a 6th loaded course. You are right the question has to remain open, as to whether it is possible to obtain an acceptable sound with a high twist and 1K5, until someone is seriously willing to give it a go, as Satoh did for the higher tension Pistoy (However, Satoh's tension is far above what we are discussing, here, I believe.) Like yourself, I think no avenue of research should be closed until it is shown to be an impasse. Some directions do seem more promising than others, and I think it is perfectly normal that we draw attention to the huge work that Mimmo has achieved recently (not just on the loaded string issue, by the way). However, many people did predict that it was actually impossible to achieve a good loaded string, with an even spread of the load. This would either have meant that lutists in the past put up with quite untrue strings, or that the technology would have been quickly abandoned, if it had ever tried. Mimmo kept at this issue for the last 25 years and finally seems to have discovered how to obtain this. Again, it is not because Mimmo has made this break through that we can necessarily conclude that it already occurred before, but it does open a door (as it were), and whether or not lutists believe this technology was historic, the loaded string is now available, perhaps, I can say timidly, once again; but I will be cautious and just leave it at, available. I hope other string makers, including those who feel they have good reason for sticking to high-twist, or ropes, or whatever, will feel free to talk about their point of view, without feeling it is necessary to ignore the work of others. Robust debate and even polemic discussion can lead to clarification of all views, and a better understanding as the dust settles. At least I hope so. Regards Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 17:26, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : --- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi- filé To: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease
[LUTE] Re: dyeing/loading
Hi Anthony, I don't know Patrizio Barbieri's article. I will look it up and read it. But the fact that there was an industry of ropemaking in every port city, and nearly every large city, is not evidence that this technology extended to the art of making music strings from lamb gut. I know the illustration you attached, and there is a similar one in Diderot's Encyclopedie, but there is absolutely no evidence that one craft borrowed from the other. I experienced the same temptation at one time; to conflate the two. Here in Diderot's own words: Si l'on fabriquoit des cordes de coton, de crin, de brins, , on ne s'y prendroit pas autrement pour celles de chanvre; ainsi on peut rapporter à cette main d'oeuvre tout ce qui concerneroit celle de ces cordes. Mais il n'en est pas de même des cordes qu'on tire des substances animales, comme les cordes à boyau, les cordes de nerfs, les cordes d'instrumens de musique, . Celles-ci demandent des préparations un travail particuliers; nous en allons traiter séparément. I'm sorry that I don't have time to provide a translation for the list, but you get the gist of it. DD Damian I suppose you do know the work of Partizio Barbieri, and I assume you do not agree with his findings about Roman and Neapolitan gut string ropes. Patrizio Barbieri: Roman and Neapolitan gut strings, 1550-1590, GSJ, May 2006, pp 176-7. PB appears to have shown that roped strings were already in use on musical instruments as from mid of the 15th century (Ugolino of Orvieto: 'Declaratio musicae disciplinae' Liber quintus, Capitulum IX: 'De cordarum seu nervorm instrumentalium subtilitate et grossitie'. 1430-40 ca.) This seems to be confirmed by the presence of orditori (i.e. wheels with three or four rotating hooks used to make ropes) in some 16th century roman stringmakers workshop inventories. See this etching of such a machine, I suppose, here, it is not one for making a gut rope, but they would be basically the same. http://www.aquilacorde.com/orditori.jpg Indeed, I made such a gut rope as the one at the front, with Charles Besnainou. I played the role of the middle man, that you can see on the etching above. I looked at the illustrations in the Syntagma Musicum and saw roped strings. Likewise I saw ropes when I came upon J B Oudry's 'Basse de viole et Cahier de Musique.' Even helical tile patters in the 72nd St IRT subway station looked like roped strings to me. But now I am convinced that the artists were merely depicting the natural refraction of light on a well twisted string. Charles showed me paintings that really do look like ropes on musical instruments, including one in which the rope is not tied to the bowed instruments string hole, but fixed with a hook. It is easy to understand how a rope might be hooked in this way (even if it is a little strange), but much more difficult to explain if it is a high twist. Now, my father-in-law taught me to recognize edible fungi; and I was surprised later to notice that I saw many more in the woods and fields than I did previously. I began to have an expert eye. On the other hand, I also did spy delicious mushrooms that turned out to be autumn leaves. I agree that ropes on paintings, might turned out to be like those Autumn leaves, if we were able to see the original. The human mind does look for patterns, and a man with a theory does often try to fit everything he sees into the pattern of his thoughts, but that does go for us all, you, Damian, just as much as me, or any other person interested in this topic. In historical linguistics, a linguist will, frequently, hypothesize a form that he has never seen or heard in the language. Generally, this form will be shown starred in historical studies, as you will see in the OED, for Early Germanic forms postulated for that early languages. The form (or rather set of forms) in question is postulated through a comparative study of the patterns of forms in related languages. The starred form will probably never be observed, but the more data that the linguist can gather that can only be accounted for by this form having existed, the better we consider the analysis. Historical reconstruction is perhaps, not quite like that; but the more indirect evidence we can find to back-up the hypothesis the safer it is, short of actually finding the thing itself. I agree, that just a few paintings of red strings, or rope-like shapes, would not make a hypothesis safe. The more indications we discover that tie up with the hypothesis, the safer it becomes. Perhaps, loaded strings should still be considered as starred forms, but that does not make the topic uninteresting and unworthy of discussion. Like Alexander B. I have just tried one of the new loaded strings, and very much liked it; but this is no proof of its historic authenticity. Although it does mean that there is positive fall-out from all this research,
[LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Dear Roman, Saying that I could not be sure who wrote the paper, was meant as a joke, since the paper is about dodgy attributions. It is clearly by Daniel Hill. I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. All this, of course, is irrelevant, since, whatever the etymology of the name may have been originally, there is no hidden meaning in your use of it. Sautscheck is simply one of your family names, and, as such, a perfectly reasonable pseudonym to use. Best wishes, Stewart -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 12:30 To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Palestrina's lute (was Musical Crimes etc)
Dear Howard, Many thanks indeed. The Amazon site gives a lot of detail about Palestrina, and confirms that he used the lute while composing. Jessie Owens' book certainly looks a good read. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 16:36 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Palestrina's lute (was Musical Crimes etc) On Jun 8, 2008, at 3:03 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. If you google palestrina lute mass into google (without the quotes) you should pull up a page of Jessie Ann Owens' The composer at work from Amazon that quotes letters about Palestrina using the lute to compose. Oor try this: http://books.google.com/books? id=9Xc_EXNgf00Cpg=PA293lpg=PA293dq=palestrina+lute +masssource=webots=cAz_AAI-amsig=PslpZZMII4v9Qh51ZArJ- t_YI60hl=en#PPA294,M1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. Please excuse my rude wording, but that is pure non-sense (in the very sense of the word) because there are no bridges from -tscheck to Tscheche (Czech) in German, neither phonetically nor etymologically, since -ck- is a mute while the 2nd -ch- in Tscheche is a fricative (there is no corresponding sound in English, I'd describe it as something between -ch- in loch and -y- in yes). The two phonemes sound entirely different. Besides, the modifying use of the prefix sau- is fairly confined to the estates of Bavaria, btw not always pejorative (saugut, saugeil). Most other parts of German speaking countries use Arsch- or Scheisz- instead (arschkalt, Scheiszwetter, both pretty rude). -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Let me assure that the mere Sautscheck word evokes no pejorative undertones at all to me although the Sau- prefix is pretty common here and means just what Stewart says. It is not very rude, though. Can be used talking to your mother-in-law without any risk. Sautscheck merely sounds vaguely slavonic which is more or less synonymic here with probably ok but take care of your car. What a silly thing all those prejudices are, aren't they? g I have only been wondering why the more common spelling Sautschek has not one hit in the phone directory and Sautscheck has seven just as Roman says! On 08.06.2008, at 23:38, Stewart McCoy wrote: I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Palestrina's lute (was Musical Crimes etc)
On Jun 8, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: The Amazon site gives a lot of detail about Palestrina, and confirms that he used the lute while composing. Jessie Owens' book certainly looks a good read. I was mistaken in saying it was an Amazon site, BTW. It's Google Book Search. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. All this, of course, is irrelevant, since, whatever the etymology of the name may have been originally, there is no hidden meaning in your use of it. Sautscheck is simply one of your family names, and, as such, a perfectly reasonable pseudonym to use. Best wishes, Stewart Indeed, especially considering that late 18th century lutenist with the same surname active in Dutch Limburg (no surviving music). RT -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 12:30 To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution! http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Besides, the modifying use of the prefix sau- is fairly confined to the estates of Bavaria, btw not always pejorative (saugut, saugeil). Most other parts of German speaking countries use Arsch- or Scheisz- instead (arschkalt, Scheiszwetter, both pretty rude). -- Mathias Interesting. I wonder if similarly functioning Italian modifier SCROFA, is a calque of that, via South Tirol. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Stewart, You might be happy to know that your neologism has been recorded: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sautscheckerei RT - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 5:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics Dear Roman, Saying that I could not be sure who wrote the paper, was meant as a joke, since the paper is about dodgy attributions. It is clearly by Daniel Hill. I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. All this, of course, is irrelevant, since, whatever the etymology of the name may have been originally, there is no hidden meaning in your use of it. Sautscheck is simply one of your family names, and, as such, a perfectly reasonable pseudonym to use. Best wishes, Stewart -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 12:30 To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dyeing/loading
Hi Anthony Stringmakers use machines to add torsion to strings as they dry. There are illustrations of these in Bachmann, Alberto 'Encyclopedia of the Violin' 1925. But they are not the same as the machines used to make rope. I don't know what more evidence you don't need. Here is Diderot, who set out to describe and define the different 'Arts et Metiers' of his time, drawing a clear distinction between the technology used to make rope and that which is used in making music strings, saying in plain language, that they are totally distinct in their technologies even though they are both labelled 'cordes'. I really don't think there is anything more to discover. If roped strings were so great they would have lasted through the 19th century when all of the orchestral instruments still used gut. There was really nothing to disrupt a tradition or method of this distinct type. if it was truly successful, yet no evidence at all exists. DD Hello Damian But what about those machines that were in the inventory of the string makers? You are right that Diderot says that cordes à boyau are not made in the same way as those made of cotton etc, but can we take that to mean that there absolutely were no type of ropes? I am open to the argument, but I think there is more to discover. Someone also mentioned the existence of a Portuguese text that contains description of gut rope making. Perhaps there were no ropes that were not somehow smoothed, in the case of lutes, but I have seen paintings of bowed instruments that do seem to have ropes. If Charles allows me I will send you one, but I need his permission, I don't know where he got it from. AH Le 8 juin 08 à 23:27, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Hi Anthony, I don't know Patrizio Barbieri's article. I will look it up and read it. But the fact that there was an industry of ropemaking in every port city, and nearly every large city, is not evidence that this technology extended to the art of making music strings from lamb gut. I know the illustration you attached, and there is a similar one in Diderot's Encyclopedie, but there is absolutely no evidence that one craft borrowed from the other. I experienced the same temptation at one time; to conflate the two. Here in Diderot's own words: Si l'on fabriquoit des cordes de coton, de crin, de brins, , on ne s'y prendroit pas autrement pour celles de chanvre; ainsi on peut rapporter à cette main d'oeuvre tout ce qui concerneroit celle de ces cordes. Mais il n'en est pas de même des cordes qu'on tire des substances animales, comme les cordes à boyau, les cordes de nerfs, les cordes d'instrumens de musique, . Celles-ci demandent des préparations un travail particuliers; nous en allons traiter séparément. I'm sorry that I don't have time to provide a translation for the list, but you get the gist of it. DD Damian I suppose you do know the work of Partizio Barbieri, and I assume you do not agree with his findings about Roman and Neapolitan gut string ropes. Patrizio Barbieri: Roman and Neapolitan gut strings, 1550-1590, GSJ, May 2006, pp 176-7. PB appears to have shown that roped strings were already in use on musical instruments as from mid of the 15th century (Ugolino of Orvieto: 'Declaratio musicae disciplinae' Liber quintus, Capitulum IX: 'De cordarum seu nervorm instrumentalium subtilitate et grossitie'. 1430-40 ca.) This seems to be confirmed by the presence of orditori (i.e. wheels with three or four rotating hooks used to make ropes) in some 16th century roman stringmakers workshop inventories. See this etching of such a machine, I suppose, here, it is not one for making a gut rope, but they would be basically the same. http://www.aquilacorde.com/orditori.jpg Indeed, I made such a gut rope as the one at the front, with Charles Besnainou. I played the role of the middle man, that you can see on the etching above. I looked at the illustrations in the Syntagma Musicum and saw roped strings. Likewise I saw ropes when I came upon J B Oudry's 'Basse de viole et Cahier de Musique.' Even helical tile patters in the 72nd St IRT subway station looked like roped strings to me. But now I am convinced that the artists were merely depicting the natural refraction of light on a well twisted string. Charles showed me paintings that really do look like ropes on musical instruments, including one in which the rope is not tied to the bowed instruments string hole, but fixed with a hook. It is easy to understand how a rope might be hooked in this way (even if it is a little strange), but much more difficult to explain if it is a high twist. Now, my father-in-law taught me to recognize edible fungi; and I was surprised later to notice that I saw many more in the woods and fields than I did previously. I began to have an expert eye. On the other hand, I also did spy delicious mushrooms that turned out to be autumn
