[LUTE] Re: ...help !
Dear Arthur, Thank you very much for your kind and, as usual, very complete answer to my query. Your argumentation comforts my own conclusion. I had taken a look at the various sources I had at hand (your introductions to FdM's works, to the Siena ms, your Herwart's thesis, H. C. Slim's biography of FdM and also Suzanne Court's thesis on Terzi, plus Philipe Canguilhem's book on Galillei) and I always came to the same conclusion : B.M. remains the mystery man in Fronimo ! Hoppy and Paul were quite young at the time they recorded this Duetti Italiani record (1979) and they may have been a bit over enthusiastic about the attribution then... Never mind, their record is still very pleasant to listen to ! Well, now, B.M., a Florentine gentleman... Could he possibly be a member of the Medici family ? Thank you again, Arthur, and have a very good day, Jean-Marie === 18-09-2008 02:48:19 === - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:52 AM | Dear collective wisdom, | | Could anyone on this list give me some precisions about the attribution of some pieces in Galilei's Fronimo (1584 edition), namely 1 ricerecar and 2 Contrapunti at the end of the book, to a certain Bernardino Monzino. The table indeed gives the initials B.M. for these pieces, but nowhere does a complete name ever appear. How did some people (Paul O'Dette and Hopkinson Smith among them) reached the equation BM = Bernardino Monzino ? | If you have clues on that mysterious attribution I would be very grateful for your help. Arthur... ??? ;-) | | All the best, | | Jean-Marie | oo Dear Jean-Marie, I've been busy, so have had to put off responding to your question. The attribution Berdanrdino Monzino for pieces by B.M. in Galilei's Fronimo pieces comes from the duet LP that Paul and Hoppy released in 1979. I do not have it, so I do not know the thinking behind the attribution to Bernardo Monzino, Francesco da Milano's brother. (Francesco was also known as Monzino, after his birthplace, Monza in Milan, and some pieces of his are attributed to F.M which could mean Francesco Monzino.) Pieces attributed to a composer with the initials B.M. also occur in the Siena Lute Book and in the de Bellis Manuscript. On folio 24 of the Siena manuscript is a piece attributed to Monzino, which could refer to Francesco or to his brother. The piece is included in the HUP Francesco edition, as Appendix No. 26. Now a few folios earlier (folio 19v) is a piece attributed to B.M. and it _appears_ to be the Monzino piece. For that reason Hoppy and Paul may have concluded that the M of B.M. refers to Monzino, hence Bernardo (or Bernardino) Monzino. But it is only the first few measures of the two pieces that are alike, and both continue differently after measure 12. In other words, the two works are likely parody ricercars based on the same model. So the attribution to a person named Monzino is questionable. Thanks to Franco Pavan we now know a bit about Bernardo's biography. Francesco's family was associated with the French faction in Milan, and Bernardo traveled with the Parisian composer Jean Conseil and was in Rome with him, when he was in the Pope's private chapel, but otherwise Bernardo seems to have resided in Milan. He succeeded Francesco as canon at the basilica of San Nazaro in Broglio, when Francesco married. I can find no reference to Bernardo ever being in Florence, except fleetingly. Certainly he was not there long enough to be considered a Florentine. Galilei described B.M. as being a gentiluomo fiorentino, and that would exclude Bernardo being B.M. A Florentine gentleman might disguise his name, since the occupation of musician was beneath his station. Mariagrazia Carlone in a forthcoming article in JLSA suggests a member of a prominent Florentine dynastic family as being B.M., which would surely fit the sobriquet Florentine Gentleman. Dinko Fabris (iirc) has suggested another name, but I cannot find the reference. And one must remember that there were surely a great many Renaissance gentleman-lutenists with those initials. But until the evidence is stronger, I would suggest the Fronimo pieces be designated B.M., Florentine Gentleman. It is always dangerous to make attributions based on shallow, speculative evidence. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Brahms' Academic Festival Overture in C minor, Op. 80, performed by the Orchestre National Bordeaux Aquitaine; Alain Lombard, conductor. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
Hello, Approximately on the fret II are equal to a lute in G, with A = 415 Hz. Please, play it without fingernails! ;-) Best wishes, Jose Luis 2008/9/18, Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I've been plinking around on a cheap guitar I have, trying to get a sense of what it would be like to play a lute. I'm guessing that the likeness would be increased by using a capo. Does this sound right? Any suggestions on where to place the capo for the most lute-like experience, in terms of the biomechanics of playing? Are lute strings easier to fret than (acoustic) guitar strings? Is the action lower on a lute? Thanks for any info, Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
Hi Mike, I don't play with fingernails, but many lute players do (and did) so come to your own decision about that. I think the majority of us play with flesh. Also, many Renaissance lutes had long string lengths, even longer than your classical guitar, so you do not need to play with a capo at all. However, many classical guitarists use a capo on position II or sometimes III as they think it gets them closer to a lute sound - which of course it doesn't ;-) Importantly, the string spacing for both hands is narrower on a lute. Try out a 12-string guitar in your local guitar shop. That will give a much better idea of what it is to play a lute, including octave basses. Rob 2008/9/18 Jose Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, Approximately on the fret II are equal to a lute in G, with A = 415 Hz. Please, play it without fingernails! ;-) Best wishes, Jose Luis 2008/9/18, Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I've been plinking around on a cheap guitar I have, trying to get a sense of what it would be like to play a lute. I'm guessing that the likeness would be increased by using a capo. Does this sound right? Any suggestions on where to place the capo for the most lute-like experience, in terms of the biomechanics of playing? Are lute strings easier to fret than (acoustic) guitar strings? Is the action lower on a lute? Thanks for any info, Mike To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
- Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] pre-newbie question A capo will put you in the correct pitch but do little in giving you a feel for the Lute. The Lute is double strung, the Guitar is as you know single strung. The tension on Lute strings is significantly lower than that of the Guitar and because of that the technique is different, especially with the right hand. The advantage of using a Guitar at this point is in getting a feeling for the music and whether or not you enjoy playing it. If you are at that point where you can actually play Lute music on the Guitar and enjoy doing it then the Guitar has served its purpose. This is how I came to the Lute, by way of the Guitar. This is also how I can tell you that it is different in many ways. The strings set closer to the sound board. You can not play the Lute with the same heavy hand that you can get away with on the Guitar. - Original Message - From: Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] pre-newbie question I've been plinking around on a cheap guitar I have, trying to get a sense of what it would be like to play a lute. I'm guessing that the likeness would be increased by using a capo. Does this sound right? Any suggestions on where to place the capo for the most lute-like experience, in terms of the biomechanics of playing? Are lute strings easier to fret than (acoustic) guitar strings? Is the action lower on a lute? Thanks for any info, Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1677 - Release Date: 9/17/2008 5:07 PM
[LUTE] Balalaika
Not exactly lute, but perhaps of interest to players of fretted instruments: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMsqaaCG0X4feature=related Stewart McCoy. -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMsqaaCG0X4feature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
Thanks to all for your helpful replies. I didn't really say it, but I don't know how to play the guitar either, beyond being able to tune it and find notes on it. I'm just using one we have laying around the house as a lute simulator. :-) One problem I've noticed when toying with a guitar or especially an electric base is that it's very difficult for me to turn my left hand completely over, which makes it difficult to finger notes that require a reach, up near the first fret. Just looking at the pictures, I'm thinking/hoping that the stretch for a lute is much smaller, and would be easier for me, mechanically. I'm guessing that the distance between the first and second frets on a lute are approximately like the distance between 8th and 9th frets on a guitar--if so, then maybe capo'ing my guitar at the 8th fret would make it feel more like a lute. I'm not so concerned about pitch--I just want to know what a lute feels like. The suggestion to try out a 12-string guitar is interesting--I'll give that a try. I noticed that the UK lute society has a set of lutes for rent--wish we had that over here (USA). I'm not wealthy, so my options look a little daunting. With any luck I'll talk myself out of it before it comes to that. ;-) Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question [Scanned]
The frets might be closer on a lute than a guitarbut the neck is a lot wider if you buy an 8 course ren. As for chords and stretch, some of the chords on guitar are easy, the same chords on a ( 8 course ) can be a stretch. Either way the lute is a great instrument to play. N. -Original Message- From: Mike Coleman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 September 2008 16:09 To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question Thanks to all for your helpful replies. I didn't really say it, but I don't know how to play the guitar either, beyond being able to tune it and find notes on it. I'm just using one we have laying around the house as a lute simulator. :-) One problem I've noticed when toying with a guitar or especially an electric base is that it's very difficult for me to turn my left hand completely over, which makes it difficult to finger notes that require a reach, up near the first fret. Just looking at the pictures, I'm thinking/hoping that the stretch for a lute is much smaller, and would be easier for me, mechanically. I'm guessing that the distance between the first and second frets on a lute are approximately like the distance between 8th and 9th frets on a guitar--if so, then maybe capo'ing my guitar at the 8th fret would make it feel more like a lute. I'm not so concerned about pitch--I just want to know what a lute feels like. The suggestion to try out a 12-string guitar is interesting--I'll give that a try. I noticed that the UK lute society has a set of lutes for rent--wish we had that over here (USA). I'm not wealthy, so my options look a little daunting. With any luck I'll talk myself out of it before it comes to that. ;-) Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] new to the lute
Greetings to everyone, I've only joined this list a week or so ago and finally have worked up the nerve to ask a few questions as a potential beginner. I play classical guitar at an intermediate level, although I have been drawn to the lute for many years. And while I am thankful for the renaissance and baroque lute repertoire which has been transcribed for the guitar, I hunger for the opportunity to play them on their original instruments. Cost, finding a suitable teacher, and the thought of cutting my nails are all reasons I have not taken the plunge before now. My hope is that you might help me with a few questions. First, I am torn between the Renaissance and the Baroque, making it hard for me to narrow down my search for an appropriate lute (probably 8 course renaissance or 13 course baroque.) As I am disabled and live on a fixed income, cost seems to to be pushing me toward the 8 course. I'm sure others have struggled with this question and I am curious about your suggestions for a first lute. Next I wanted to ask about the inexpensive EMS lutes. Are they playable instruments and what do they sound like? I know they have nylon frets (not preferable), but that could be changed in time I suppose. I also wonder if anyone has purchased a baroque lute from Rob Dorsey at Lutecraft.com and what is your opinion. They seem to be quite inexpensive compared to other Baroque instruments. Also, about the nail question. Are there those of you who play both the guitar and the lute? I have found that I can keep my nails relatively short when I play the guitar to good effect if I slightly change my angle of attach. Finally, I am considering moving to the Asheville, NC area. Does anyone know of good teachers in that area? Greetings once again! Duffy Get educated. Click here for Adult Education programs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifm9SxcKCBOUH3a5vqfTY4ymGzelOtOOvMHA5LSPIF3P6dpt/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: new to the lute
On Thursday 18 September 2008 17:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] rattled on the keyboard: Greetings to everyone, I've only joined this list a week or so ago and finally have worked up the nerve to ask a few questions as a potential beginner. I play classical guitar at an intermediate level, although I have been drawn to the lute for many years. And while I am thankful for the renaissance and baroque lute repertoire which has been transcribed for the guitar, I hunger for the opportunity to play them on their original instruments. Cost, finding a suitable teacher, and the thought of cutting my nails are all reasons I have not taken the plunge before now. My hope is that you might help me with a few questions. First, I am torn between the Renaissance and the Baroque, making it hard for me to narrow down my search for an appropriate lute (probably 8 course renaissance or 13 course baroque.) As I am disabled and live on a fixed income, cost seems to to be pushing me toward the 8 course. I'm sure others have struggled with this question and I am curious about your suggestions for a first lute. Next I wanted to ask about the inexpensive EMS lutes. Are they playable instruments and what do they sound like? I know they have nylon frets (not preferable), but that could be changed in time I suppose. I also wonder if anyone has purchased a baroque lute from Rob Dorsey at Lutecraft.com and what is your opinion. They seem to be quite inexpensive compared to other Baroque instruments. Also, about the nail question. Are there those of you who play both the guitar and the lute? I have found that I can keep my nails relatively short when I play the guitar to good effect if I slightly change my angle of attach. Finally, I am considering moving to the Asheville, NC area. Does anyone know of good teachers in that area? Greetings once again! Duffy Hi, If you've a limited budget I would suggest you take a look at second hand lutes offered on the site of wayne cripps http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html Opinions about the the lutemaker you can always ask on this list. It's often better to have an old quality instrument than a bad cheap new one. A good second hand is however not necessarily cheap. 8 course lutes are popular but there is actually not much music for this instrument although you can of course play almost everything until 1610 on this instrument. On the other hand many 8 courses are offered second hand, so there is more choice there. This question occurs many times on this list so you can find also answers in the archive of this list. A 10 course renaissance lute is actually already a baroque lute. I play on one but it's less suited for early renaissance and even Dowland, but the ideal situation is a costly business: 6 course, 7 course, 10 course, 11 course baroque, 13 course baroque, theorbo.. Welcome to an expensive hobby. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: When you say it is difficult for you to turn your left hand completely over, I don't understand what you mean, Nor I, but it reminds me of The Exorcist. but if you mean it is difficult to reach around and touch the frets, you are probably doing something not quite right. You shouldn't have to bend the wrist excessively. I think you would do well to get some lessons in the beginning stage when habits are formed. No lie. But in the meantime, relax your left arm and let it drop. Then raise it to about shoulder height so you're looking at your palm and the fingers are in a relaxed curve. The second knuckles of the fourth, third and second fingers should describe something like a rising diagonal line. When the neck of the instrument is between your thumb and fingers, it should be roughly at that height and roughly parallel with that line. Keep your left thumb low enough on the back of the neck so your palm doesn't touch the neck -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo stringing
I was wondering about the 15 and 16 course theorbos in this respect. I think the last 2 courses are tuned to the high F# and G#. And then there is the 19 course theorbo with even more chromatic notes. Sterling - Original Message From: David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute mailing list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:04:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo stringing I had mine 8 + 6. For F# and G#, indeed, very usefull when playing continuo. But after changing to gut I was not satisfied with 7 and 8 (I know: too small a theorbo in the first place, but that has its advantages, too). So had 7 + 7 for a while and then 6 + 8. Sound is so much better now. Theorbos are all about low basses, so it does make sense. And I can live without F# and G#, after all. David On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even though most surviving theorbos are strung 6 + 8, does anyone know of any originals strung 8 + 6 as many modern players seem to prefer? Certainly being able to stop the 7th and 8th courses (i.e. Gsharp and F sharp) makes life easier, but you don't benefit of course from the wonderful presence of the long basses. Anyway, just wondering Nigel To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New to the lute
Oh I don't know Stewart, My 8 course ren is from EMS and I'm quite happy with it, but you are right you get what you pay for. A couple of years back I paid £3000 for a Gibson Les Paul, but I have been playing guitar for nearly 40 years. How much Lute would 3 grand buy?. No point in paying a kings ransom for an instrument if you lose interest in it. Best Regards Neil -Original Message- From: Stewart McCoy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 September 2008 21:32 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] New to the lute Dear Duffy, You ask about inexpensive lutes, such as those by EMS, which are indeed very cheap. Like so many things in this world, you get what you pay for. I would advise buying the best lute you can afford, and not one where you have to make adjustments to make it playable. It is better to ask a teacher for advice, than buy something on your own before going for lessons. As far as choosing between a renaissance and baroque lute is concerned, you should consider the music you want to play. If the answer is both renaissance and baroque music, I would start with a renaissance lute, because that instrument is closer to your familiar guitar. Guitar chord shapes are the same on the renaissance lute, but one string lower. If you bought a baroque lute, having to cope with lots of strings, an unfamiliar (D minor) tuning, and difficult music, might put you off. Lute players in the past played without nails, although we know there were some who played with nails. If you play with nails, you tend to catch just one string of each pair, which is unsatisfactory. Playing with nails works well with a single-strung theorbo, just as it does on the modern guitar. If your instrument has strings in pairs, it is better to play without nails, because you are more likely then to strike both strings of a course. Watching a good player should convince you. Good luck with it all. If you have more questions, this is the place to ask. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 September 2008 16:34 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] new to the lute Greetings to everyone, I've only joined this list a week or so ago and finally have worked up the nerve to ask a few questions as a potential beginner. I play classical guitar at an intermediate level, although I have been drawn to the lute for many years. And while I am thankful for the renaissance and baroque lute repertoire which has been transcribed for the guitar, I hunger for the opportunity to play them on their original instruments. Cost, finding a suitable teacher, and the thought of cutting my nails are all reasons I have not taken the plunge before now. My hope is that you might help me with a few questions. First, I am torn between the Renaissance and the Baroque, making it hard for me to narrow down my search for an appropriate lute (probably 8 course renaissance or 13 course baroque.) As I am disabled and live on a fixed income, cost seems to to be pushing me toward the 8 course. I'm sure others have struggled with this question and I am curious about your suggestions for a first lute. Next I wanted to ask about the inexpensive EMS lutes. Are they playable instruments and what do they sound like? I know they have nylon frets (not preferable), but that could be changed in time I suppose. I also wonder if anyone has purchased a baroque lute from Rob Dorsey at Lutecraft.com and what is your opinion. They seem to be quite inexpensive compared to other Baroque instruments. Also, about the nail question. Are there those of you who play both the guitar and the lute? I have found that I can keep my nails relatively short when I play the guitar to good effect if I slightly change my angle of attach. Finally, I am considering moving to the Asheville, NC area. Does anyone know of good teachers in that area? Greetings once again! Duffy Get educated. Click here for Adult Education programs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifm9SxcKCBOUH3a5vqfTY4 ymGzelOtOOvMHA5LSPIF3P6dpt/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] learning to play
Thanks to everyone who responded to my earlier posting..much food for thought! One final question, if I am unable to find a local teacher, is it possible to begin learning from texts, video, etc.? I've even heard of teachers of other instruments who teach over the distance using vidcams. Thoughts? Duffy Click to find out what your future holds. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieOomK3bWeToFrvwW98H71C4cuQV8adQGzTsFaPB7rUXCLHR/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: California lute instructor--San Francisco Bay Area/Peninsula?
LuteNet list members David Tayler and Richard Savino are in the bay area and possibly Robert Strizich if he is still teaching. On Sep 18, 2008, at 8:51 AM, Her Majestys Noyse wrote: Hello, If possible, I would like to be forwarded contact information for lute instructors in the San Francisco Bay area located in the peninsula region (eg, Palo Alto, San Mateo). Many thanks in advance, Todd -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
[LUTE] Re: pre-newbie question
I played with this a little more tonight, and it seems that the key for me is to bring the neck of the guitar near to vertical. It's reasonably comfortable, for example, if I'm sighting exactly along the third fret, with my nose about three inches from the near end of it. I doesn't seem like many people play that way, but I did run across some pictures of a classical guitarist named Paul Galbraith (http://www.paul-galbraith.com/fotos/), who appears to have started out with a pretty steep incline and later decided to go vertical, like a cello. This, on the other hand, I simply cannot do with my left hand. It feels like a pain-compliance hold. http://www.guitarprinciples.com/Guitar_Technique/Classical.jpg Mike On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Mike Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No doubt my knowledge is lacking, but here is an example of what I meant: if I imagine where the nut/first fret of a guitar would be located in space, put my hand there, palm open, and then turn it counter-clockwise (as if turning a doorknob), it becomes uncomfortable to turn it more than about 30 degrees beyond vertical. By turning over my hand, I mean holding it out palm horizontal, as if doing the Macarena, for example. The main result, at least when I was toying with an electric bass, is that it's difficult to get my pinky onto the fretboard when fretting a low-pitched string with my first finger (esp near the nut). Hopefully this is a problem I'll be able to work out. On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:27 PM, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 18, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: When you say it is difficult for you to turn your left hand completely over, I don't understand what you mean, Nor I, but it reminds me of The Exorcist. but if you mean it is difficult to reach around and touch the frets, you are probably doing something not quite right. You shouldn't have to bend the wrist excessively. I think you would do well to get some lessons in the beginning stage when habits are formed. No lie. But in the meantime, relax your left arm and let it drop. Then raise it to about shoulder height so you're looking at your palm and the fingers are in a relaxed curve. The second knuckles of the fourth, third and second fingers should describe something like a rising diagonal line. When the neck of the instrument is between your thumb and fingers, it should be roughly at that height and roughly parallel with that line. Keep your left thumb low enough on the back of the neck so your palm doesn't touch the neck -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
