[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Alfonso; I didn't read Arto's remarks to mean that you're lute was overpriced, just that the cost had generally risen to the point of putting these instruments out of the reach of the majority of players. The same thing has happened to many instruments, double basses for example have increased in value so much that investors are buying them as investments and storing them in warehouses while their value increases. Gary - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale Dear Arto and all, After the brief discussion about theorbo prices, I looked around for of other makers prices to reevaluate the worth of my theorbo by Nico van der Waals I am currently offering for sale for 7900€ (original price was 8250€ back in 2002). I am now certain that my asking price is quite fair for such a reputable maker and for an exceptionally good sounding instrument in mint condition. These are examples of similarly decorated instruments taken from up to date prices of three good makers including a Kingham case. I do not have information about Paul Tomson and Michael Lowe but I know these are much more expensive and their waiting list is even not considerable if you need an instrument in the near future. Stephen Barber 7,777€ Stephen Gottlieb 9,105 € Grant Tomlinson 9800 US $ = 7,604 € + 390 Kingham case = 7994 € (last years price) I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my asking price. Greetings, Alfonso On Feb 14, 2009, at 12:20 AM, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: On 2/13/2009, Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com wrote: I am offering my Theorbo by NIco van der Waals for sale. .. Selling price is 7900 . The instrument really looks very beautiful! But is this really the price level of today? 7800 euros for a quality theorbo? In that case I am a rich man! On the other hand we lutenists have been happy for years for the prices of our instruments - just take a look to all others, even to modern guitarists ordering hand made instruments... Happily I've bought my instruments in the times that were not so good to luthiers! ;-)Best wishes to Stephen B. and Sandy! ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1950 - Release Date: 02/12/09 18:46:00
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
I think you should charge whatever you want for the Theorbo! I would add to the list you have: Quite a few professionals play Andreas von Holst's Theorbos, they run about 5000 Euro, And I don't know what Hassenfuss is charging but I often see his instruments at gigs and they used to reasonable. dt At 01:02 AM 2/16/2009, you wrote: Alfonso; I didn't read Arto's remarks to mean that you're lute was overpriced, just that the cost had generally risen to the point of putting these instruments out of the reach of the majority of players. The same thing has happened to many instruments, double basses for example have increased in value so much that investors are buying them as investments and storing them in warehouses while their value increases. Gary - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale Dear Arto and all, After the brief discussion about theorbo prices, I looked around for of other makers prices to reevaluate the worth of my theorbo by Nico van der Waals I am currently offering for sale for 7900 (original price was 8250 back in 2002). I am now certain that my asking price is quite fair for such a reputable maker and for an exceptionally good sounding instrument in mint condition. These are examples of similarly decorated instruments taken from up to date prices of three good makers including a Kingham case. I do not have information about Paul Tomson and Michael Lowe but I know these are much more expensive and their waiting list is even not considerable if you need an instrument in the near future. Stephen Barber 7,777 Stephen Gottlieb 9,105 Grant Tomlinson 9800 US $ = 7,604 + 390 Kingham case = 7994 (last years price) I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my asking price. Greetings, Alfonso On Feb 14, 2009, at 12:20 AM, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: On 2/13/2009, Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com wrote: I am offering my Theorbo by NIco van der Waals for sale. .. Selling price is 7900 . The instrument really looks very beautiful! But is this really the price level of today? 7800 euros for a quality theorbo? In that case I am a rich man! On the other hand we lutenists have been happy for years for the prices of our instruments - just take a look to all others, even to modern guitarists ordering hand made instruments... Happily I've bought my instruments in the times that were not so good to luthiers! ;-)Best wishes to Stephen B. and Sandy! ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1950 - Release Date: 02/12/09 18:46:00
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
We use meantone in our ensemble for the singers and instrumentalists, for 17th century music, and I have a series of exercises to quickly get everyone locked in. Concerto Palatino plays exclusively in meantone with singers and instrumentalists--they are the best I have heard at it. Loekie Stardust used a moving tone center, close to just in way--they would often end up lower at the end of the piece than they started by using alternate fingerings. Amateur choral groups don't usually specify a tuning, but sometimes they do, depends on the conductor, I can't remember seeing a split key organ with choral groups--it must exist, though-- but I see it with some professional groups. If you are working in meantone, some of the notes will be out of tune from time to time because the string players are playing other gigs in Valotti or whatever. Whatever! dt At 01:55 PM 2/15/2009, you wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2009, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com said: Singers aren't so forced or so, ahem, 'nerdy' and often won't know what meantone we use. it varies, many of us dont have a clue as to much of much theory; but we all have ears, and some of us use them, both in play and with voice. Singers in small ensembles will adjust individual notes to make good harmony, sometimes this drfits the tuning of the whole ensemble. When dissonance is a feature of the music it helps if someone in the group has a strong internal memory of pitch, but that is not always obtained. From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly choose a specific meantone scale? amateur chorist more than pro, but a bit of both. Directors vary, and the quality of their chorists also vary, mosts directors try to get 'the most' out of the forces they command, but with a dose of reality as to expectation. As a player I have been asked to tune specific notes (both wind and lute), and I have seen viols etc similarly treated, I have also played in small ensembles sans directoire who had members who were sensitive and saw to it that we made the attempt. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] BWV 1025
Dear collective wisdom, I am interested in any recordings of BWV 1025, with lute. I did have the recording of Lutz Kirchoff playing, it. I recently saw in a catalogue a recording of this with Hille Perl and Lee Santana. Does anyone have this? I want to know if it is a good recording. I would like to buy it, but it is a bit expensive. Thanks, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] SLWeiss CD
Hello all, The CD that accompanied the July 2008 issue of the Italian music magazine “Amadeus” (a so-called ‘covermount-CD’) contains, according to the information I have received, 3 sonatas by S.L. Weiss, played by Francesco Romano. Such CDs are usually not readily available at normal retail outlets. I would very much like to acquire this CD, and would greatly appreciate any assistance anyone on this list (esp. those resident in Italy) can provide. I have tried to find an address of the magazine in question, but without success. Please reply off-list. Many thanks in advance. Peter Van Dessel Oud-Heverleestraat 35 B–3001 Leuven Belgium Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: BWV 1025
Buy with confidence, Ed. Hille is amazing, and Lee, her husband, is a great player too. It will be beautifully recorded too. Rob MacKillop 2009/2/16 Edward Martin [1...@gamutstrings.com Dear collective wisdom, I am interested in any recordings of BWV 1025, with lute. I did have the recording of Lutz Kirchoff playing, it. I recently saw in a catalogue a recording of this with Hille Perl and Lee Santana. Does anyone have this? I want to know if it is a good recording. I would like to buy it, but it is a bit expensive. Thanks, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [2...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 2. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Dear Howard, What do you mean by TOY theorbo? Have you seen the pictures? Do you think Nico van der Waals will ever make a TOY instrument? Sorry. I don't get it. Greetings, Alfonso On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:18 PM, howard posner wrote: On Feb 15, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Alfonso Marin wrote: I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my asking price. That would depend... It ain't one of them TOY theorbos, is it? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] the newest catalog lute sources
Dear membership, I'm searching for the catalog which contains all lute sources, but not Christian Meyer (Sources Manuscrites en Tablature), Ernst Pohlmann (Laute, Theorbe, Chitarrone...) RISM B VII(= work Wolfgang Boetticher). Does anybody know the newest catalogs of lute sources? Is it exist any better works than Meyers catalog? Gregory (Wroclaw) Twoja rodzina na bliscy.pl Zobacz: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fbliscy.htmlsid=647 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: BWV 1025
Ed, It is a really beautiful recording! The 1025 suite with viola da gamba and Baroque lute works really nicely. It is maybe, a little more introspective than the Kirchoff/Carmignola version. Both recordings are great. I like the balance and mic positioning in the Perl/Santana version which seems more natural but Carmignola seems to be doing some really beautiful stuff too, backing off to match the lute. The cd also has a great version of the 995/1011 Suite on gamba. Best, Jason Yoshida -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:47 AM To: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] BWV 1025 Dear collective wisdom, I am interested in any recordings of BWV 1025, with lute. I did have the recording of Lutz Kirchoff playing, it. I recently saw in a catalogue a recording of this with Hille Perl and Lee Santana. Does anyone have this? I want to know if it is a good recording. I would like to buy it, but it is a bit expensive. Thanks, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Dear Alfonso, A small theorbo is called a 'toy' theorbo when, because of its relatively small size which only really requires the first course to be at the lower octave, the second is also unnecessarily lowered: it's all down to how the individual player strings it, not some inherent characteristic of the instrument itself. Why some players do it is a mystery; although, of course, the use of modern overwpound strings (if you like them) allows a fairly strong bass even with a small fingered string length. I believe Howard Posner favours these small instruments in such a tuning - hence his advocacy of them I presume. There is much more, with historical evidence etc, in the archives of this list. Good to see, incidentally, that all the double-rentrant theorbos Barber (amongst others) offers are large instruments (except for his own design!) which do, indeed, require both courses to be lowered the octave. MH --- On Mon, 16/2/09, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 16 February, 2009, 5:36 PM On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:35 AM, Alfonso Marin wrote: What do you mean by TOY theorbo? Have you seen the pictures? Do you think Nico van der Waals will ever make a TOY instrument? Sorry. I don't get it. Where have you been? You missed all the fun. The toy theorbo is a recurring topic around here, and something of a running joke. If you're curious, you can start with: http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat10.htm and search inaccurate and then google toy theorbo or Buchenberg containing a shawm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Martyn, --- On Mon, 2/16/09, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Why some players do it is a mystery; although, of course, the use of modern overwpound strings (if you like them) allows a fairly strong bass even with a small fingered string length. I currently have plain gut on my A-tuned 76cm theorbo. Its quite loud down to the 6th course - just as loud as when I had an overspun on there and definitely comparable to any larger theorbo. (I've had other instruments not nearly as loud.) Works great for both solo and ensemble. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
On Feb 16, 2009, at 11:50 AM, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: I currently have plain gut on my A-tuned 76cm theorbo. Is that what you were using on the Hurel recording? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
The web gremlins made my equals sings into chutney. On Feb 16, 2009, at 12:10 PM, howard posner wrote: As far as I can tell, if Martyn thought about such things, he would say my theorbo is a toy at A92, definitely not a toy at AD0, and probably not a toy at AA5, before realizing that there was something wrong with his categorical one-size-fits-all construct. But he doesn't think of such things. Hence the joke. Try it this way: he would say my theorbo is a toy at A equals 392, definitely not a toy at A eqauls 440, and probably not a to at A equals 415... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
On Feb 16, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: A small theorbo is called a 'toy' theorbo when, because of its relatively small size As I recall, toy is your own appellation, rather than some general historical definition. which only really requires the first course to be at the lower octave, the second is also unnecessarily lowered: it's all down to how the individual player strings it, not some inherent characteristic of the instrument itself. You're saying that size brings about the necessity to use double reentrant tuning. But that's not to say that people with smaller instruments do it unnecessarily. I'm sure many of us (myself included) do it because of the way double reentrant tuning sounds. My theorbo is small enough at 79cm on the fretboard to use single reentrant tuning, but I personally prefer the sound of double reentrant over single. With single reentrant there's too much second- string sound, at least in my mind anyway. Besides, double reentrant provides the characteristic uniqueness of the theorbo! It's what makes a theorbo a theorbo, regardless of size. I can tune my 10- course in double reentrant if I want to. That would truly be a toy theorbo! Davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Toy therboes, director's cuts, Chaconnes and de Visee
Hi lute gang, I played (well, ok, it is just only public premature rehearsing, I'm afraid) a Chaconne by de Visee, to the two tubes. And the piece (nearly 5 minutes) needed some cuttings, too. I only can cut _off_ by Quicktime - not paste anything - so had to play some sections extra times; when a bass note went wrong or such... Not so severe in live, but irritating, when canned. I planned to work much more before recording this piece to the tubes, but I did not... ;-( The piece is, btw, very good and actually very clever, too, much more clever than my playing, but perhaps you anyhow get the clever ideas of de Visee? And my instrument really is one of those by Barber's own design. And I do really use those two re-entrant strings in an instrument of only 76cm:8x1/140cm:6x1. And I am even tuning in a, when a'=415Hz. And all synthetics... Horrible? ;-)) So it is really now a question of a toy theorbo and probably also a toy player? ;-) And/but it seems to work well; I mean the instrument, not the player... ;) You'll find the recordings in YouTube: (seems to be slow tonight. I'll send the address later!) Vimeo: http://www.vimeo.com/3243140 And also the music - as facsimile ms. - is there; in case you want to try it by yourself, see page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/ and play it better! :-) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Theorbo Relativity
While I think that Howard has made an excellent beginning on a theory of Relativity of Theorbo Toyness, I think it's incomplete as it stands. To completely specify whether the theorbo is toy or not we need to know if the theorbo is in motion relative to the listener, the speed, whether the theorbo is oriented perpendicular of parallel to the direction of motion (if parallel, the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction will affect the string length) and whether the theorbo is approaching or receding (the Doppler effect will modify the pitch standard). You can have hours of fun by guessing exactly what relatively small size makes a theorbo a toy under Martin's criteria, then changing the assumed pitch level and doing it again. Martin misses the fun because he doesn't acknowledge that pitch is relevant to the question of instrument size, which spares him a lot of work with the more advanced branches of mathematics, such as multiplication and division. The part about Martyn's view of what size theorbos I favor -- as if I actually had theorbo preferences based on size, and there were someone else on the planet who cared what those preferences were -- is new, I think, and is silly without being funny. As far as I can tell, if Martyn thought about such things, he would say my theorbo is a toy at A92, definitely not a toy at AD0, and probably not a toy at AA5, before realizing that there was something wrong with his categorical one-size-fits-all construct. But he doesn't think of such things. Hence the joke. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thought Provoking
I've remarked about this story numerous times on various forums. It was set up to show a certain point of view. As a former busker, let me just say that choosing the pitch (place to play) is the first task of any busker and no busker in their right mind would choose morning rush hour. I will also say that busking is the most democratic artist- audience relationship there is: the artist either holds people's attention or not. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo Relativity
I only play a toy theorbo in public. The Lorenz Fitzgerald contractions. Horrible. dt At 07:47 PM 2/16/2009, you wrote: And then, since we are in a gravity well, you'll need to account for the local curvature of space... -Original Message- From: Robert Clair [mailto:rcl...@elroberto.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 7:29 PM To: Lute List Cc: howard posner Subject: [LUTE] Theorbo Relativity While I think that Howard has made an excellent beginning on a theory of Relativity of Theorbo Toyness, I think it's incomplete as it stands. To completely specify whether the theorbo is toy or not we need to know if the theorbo is in motion relative to the listener, the speed, whether the theorbo is oriented perpendicular of parallel to the direction of motion (if parallel, the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction will affect the string length) and whether the theorbo is approaching or receding (the Doppler effect will modify the pitch standard). You can have hours of fun by guessing exactly what relatively small size makes a theorbo a toy under Martin's criteria, then changing the assumed pitch level and doing it again. Martin misses the fun because he doesn't acknowledge that pitch is relevant to the question of instrument size, which spares him a lot of work with the more advanced branches of mathematics, such as multiplication and division. The part about Martyn's view of what size theorbos I favor -- as if I actually had theorbo preferences based on size, and there were someone else on the planet who cared what those preferences were -- is new, I think, and is silly without being funny. As far as I can tell, if Martyn thought about such things, he would say my theorbo is a toy at A92, definitely not a toy at AD0, and probably not a toy at AA5, before realizing that there was something wrong with his categorical one-size-fits-all construct. But he doesn't think of such things. Hence the joke. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
