[LUTE] Re: 7 course English pieces
My dear friend, it actually seems that DR, and other friends missed the whole point. I never asked for someone to look pieces for me, I only asked for recommendation for pieces that can be found in Serge's and Wayne's websites. Unfortunately to me, I don't have libraries to get information from, the nearest library with early music is in Italy (maybe I can find something in Egypt or Turkey), my main source of information is my teacher, but he can't keep every piece of music ever written, I take from him almost every thing I can to study. What I can't take from him, I usually take from both sites, and If I can't find there, so I'm looking in few editions to buy, and I buy when I can. Some folks here plays many years, and I figured they have some recommendation for pieces. And if someone will ask me for some six- course german music, I will recommend instead of attacking him. On Feb 25, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Sounds like somebody may be a touch spoiled or impatient here- some of us old timers remember the days when we had to go to public libraries and get our music by HAND COPYING IT on staff pages- 5 line staves to which we hand ruled a 6th line if we didn't want it to be 5 line Attaignant style- from MICROFILM projections. That's how I got my Thomas Robinson, Dowland's LoST, Le Roy's English printing, Barley's book, Maynard's XII Wonders of the World and a few other things. I still have one of these books, that I sweated over for weeks- kind of like personal ms tabs from the real old days, before any of us were born. For other music, I had to learn to read lute music transcribed into double-staff notation for a G tenor lute, not easy for a guitarist used to E on a treble staff. (VALUABLE training!) I had to go out and BUY this music as hard copy entities from brick mortar music stores- or mail (not email) order my music. Some of us old farts occasionally still do this, in fact. I got my 7 course stuff right along with the 6, 8, 9, or 10 course music and was perfectly grateful to have it all, and sort it out. Even when my only lute was a medium quality nylon string guitar. Omer- I advise a little more patience, initiative; and better manners, please. Dan I'm looking in some few books, but thank you for being an a*** Omer, it is obvious that english is not your first language. DR's reply was remarkably polite, if a bit abrupt. Your counter was not only downright rude, but also inapropriate. To my knowledge three is no index of Lute sources which lists 7c pieces, much of the material published after 1500 is for either 6 or 7c instruments. Note that anything for a 6c instrument is playable on a 7c. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo group that was popular in France--a sort of portable organ. There is a fairly extensive literatature for three recorder continuo. But it is impossible to tell because the instrument is hidden. There are two very beautifully drawn scribe marks around the top, but these marks could be on any wind instrument. If it is a recorder, the windway is to the back, but that is not unusual. dt At 02:36 PM 2/22/2009, you wrote: The basoon first appeared about 1650. But obviously it could be a bass or tenor as well. Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre On Sat, Feb 21, 2009, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: Dear Dana, The reproduction doesn't show that detail particularly well because that area is very dark, but as far as I can remember it from the museum, the book stands on the table covered with some black fabric, and leaning against the basoon Perhaps a bit early to be called bassoon, and looks more to me like a shalm; extended tenor or bass to judge from the crook. Wonder what the shalm was braced with (I use x-legged dowels). Its clues like this that make possible replicas of the furniture in everyday use which is only preserved iconographically :-) -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
I didn't read this article also. But there is in German a big encyclopedia by Johann Georg Krünitz from the end of the 18th century. It was written from 1773-1858 and it can be accessed online ( http://www.kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/ ). It is called Oekonomische Encyklopädie oder allgemeines System der Staats- Stadt- Haus- und Landwirthschaft (something like economical encyclopedia or common system of the economy of state - , city-, house- and agri-culture). He describes the making of strings very detailed (the complete article has more than 7000 words). The article may be very late indeed, but anyway interesting. The colouring of strings is mentioned: Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht. Strings are colored in blue and red; blue, by drawing them through a cold broth of litmus with potash; red, be drawing them through the digestion of Turkish (?) paint cloth (?) and Potash. I didn't find there any hint on the loading of strings, but mentions that some of the strings had been overspun with a false silver wire. But there is also said, that the makers of musical strings are very cagey about the process of making ... Best regards Markus Monica Hall schrieb: I just wondered - do we know how readily available loaded strings were or how widely they were used? There was an article in the Galpin Society Journal 2006 about Roman and Neapolitan gut strings by Patrizio Barbieri and apparently he suggests that there is no historical evidence for loaded strings and that colouring them may have been a way of hiding blemishes. I haven't actually read the whole article yet - only a summary. I wondered whether anyone else had? Monica - Original Message - From: alexander voka...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre People nowadays are much more conscious of the environmental toxins. Plus... Imagine Aquila sells lead and-or mercury loaded strings. The lawyers will swarm around lute players like sharks with offers of service. The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings (showing smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red color ) and instrument string-hole measurements. One point being argued, however, was whether some of lute strings, and possibly loaded basses, were made of silk rather then gut. That discussion was held in FoRMHI, and basically died with the demise of the Fellowship itself. From the point of leeching the metals out, silk binds more closely with lead and mercury salts (as well as tin salts, customarily used to apply all the fancy colors to silk garbs), and might be much safer as loaded strings, as well. alexander On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:41:33 + Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but according to my medical dictionary mercury poisoning was common in some trades in the past - in particular in the preparation of felt used in hats. That is where the expression mad as a hatter comes from. This may be a silly question because I have been following this thread very closely but is there any evidence that strings were loaded with mercury or anything else apart from the fact that some works of art show the lower courses differently coloured? Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com; Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if it were a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary reports of professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of any. But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small (unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with their fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist should be able to inform us MH --- On Mon, 23/2/09, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 23 February, 2009, 2:23 PM David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com schrieb: On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:26 AM, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: rarely touch it). With later providing you play a lot, the skin contact is enormous. You might consider playing with nails, then. On both hands? David No,
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
During my days of historical re-enactments, we were warned of the dangers of lead poisoning. Most of us used pewter tankards and plates. It was a big no-no to polish them as this exposed more lead into the food and drink. The drinking technique was to put both lips into the liquid, thus avoiding direct contact from the pewter with the mouth. Sometimes we gave demonstrations of making lead musket-balls, but only a few at a time and handling was kept to the bare minimum. They would be passed around for on-lookers to examine who would then wash their hands. Some of us had genuine musket-balls from the period, usually kept in a pouch and only handled with gloves. But we digress... Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Jaroslaw Lipski [mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:45 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre In general lead intoxication occurs after swallowing or inhalation of even small amounts of this element, however there are reports of ocupational intoxication as well: The major source of lead is occupational exposure from jobs dealing with lead and lead-based components; there is a high prevalence of lead toxicity in the population exposed to such activities. Occupational exposure of workers is seen in the manufacturing of lead batteries and cables, as well as rubber and plastic products. Soldering and foundry work, such as casting, forging, and grinding activities, are also associated with occupational exposures. Construction workers involved in painting or paint stripping, plumbing, welding, and cutting are also exposed to lead. So not only inhaling or swallowing is toxic but touching, rubbing, grinding activities as well. Even if we don't believe in skin penetration by small particules we still have a chance to rub our nose or touch unconciously our lips after some session of playing. If you have any doubts just read this: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/410113-overview Best Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre As compared to modern day's levels of mercury contamination in the air (in particular in such big places like London where hundreds of thousands, if not more, of strip lights and 'new generation' light bulbs are getting replaced and simply chucked off in skips daily!) the effect from the mercury / lead loaded strings would simply count next to nothing. By the way, I'm not a toxicologist :) So no responsibilities accepted ... AB Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if it were a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary reports of professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of any. But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small (unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with their fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist should be able to inform us MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
On Wednesday 25 February 2009, Ron Fletcher rattled on the keyboard: During my days of historical re-enactments, we were warned of the dangers of lead poisoning. Most of us used pewter tankards and plates. It was a big no-no to polish them as this exposed more lead into the food and drink. The drinking technique was to put both lips into the liquid, thus avoiding direct contact from the pewter with the mouth. Sometimes we gave demonstrations of making lead musket-balls, but only a few at a time and handling was kept to the bare minimum. They would be passed around for on-lookers to examine who would then wash their hands. Some of us had genuine musket-balls from the period, usually kept in a pouch and only handled with gloves. But we digress... Ron (UK) And you still remember your re-enactments ;-) Conclusion: we should ask Mimmo to make historical red strings because they cannot be that bad compared with environmental air pollution. (and perhaps blue ones too, if we have to believe Thomas Mace.) Such strings are only for the luteplayers who have guts. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7 course English pieces
On Feb 25, 2009, at 3:42 AM, Omer Katzir wrote: My dear friend, it actually seems that DR, and other friends missed the whole point. I never asked for someone to look pieces for me, I only asked for recommendation for pieces that can be found in Serge's and Wayne's websites. Unfortunately to me, I don't have libraries to get information from, the nearest library with early music is in Italy (maybe I can find something in Egypt or Turkey), my main source of information is my teacher, but he can't keep every piece of music ever written, I take from him almost every thing I can to study. What I can't take from him, I usually take from both sites, and If I can't find there, so I'm looking in few editions to buy, and I buy when I can. Some folks here plays many years, and I figured they have some recommendation for pieces. And if someone will ask me for some six- course german music, I will recommend instead of attacking him. Omer, I'm sure there are lots of people on this list who will recommend pieces from the lists you mention. If I miss the point of that, it's because I don't see it that way. To me, part of my education into lute playing is learning about the historical sources of the music, and where they can be found. Wayne's Lute Page and Sarge's website contain very convenient lists of pieces, but they are not designd to be a substitute for the historical source material. At least I hope not anyway. To find the historical sources, you have to do a little research, and also be willing to spend some money. My recommendation is: if you seriously want to find out about English lute music, contact the English Lute Society, the Lute Society of America, or for that matter any of the lute societies, and find out from them where the sources of the music can be found. DR dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] three recorder continuo
The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo group that was popular in France--a sort of portable organ. There is a fairly extensive literatature for three recorder continuo. I am not familiar with literature for 3 recorder continuo. Can you say more? Or give me pointers to some of the music? Thanks. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: three recorder continuo
There are pavans for 3 recorders and lute continuo on the Fronimo tablatures page M angevin...@att.net schrieb: The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo group that was popular in France--a sort of portable organ. There is a fairly extensive literatature for three recorder continuo. I am not familiar with literature for 3 recorder continuo. Can you say more? Or give me pointers to some of the music? Thanks. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A pile of chaconnes
Man, I love that stuff. Thank you, Danny. Personally, I find the Weiss more effective as duo. Sollscher recorded it as a solo as well. The chordal variations simply sound like accompaniment to me. Another notable reconstruction of the Weiss is that of the Ahlert-Schwab Duo for 6-course mandolino and lute. http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557716 Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Daniel Shoskes [mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 1:08 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] A pile of chaconnes Any way you want to spell it, here are some chaconnes/ciaconas: Two by Corbetta in C major: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E4TDAzyy4s Weiss g minor as solo: [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYm-Y-ioxA Same piece with Michel Cardin's flute reconstruction and a plucked viol for good measure: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNO8hCAlwik Danny -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E4TDAzyy4s 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYm-Y-ioxA 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNO8hCAlwik To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Here are closeups of the strings and the bocal cap http://voicesofmusic.org//images/bocal.jpg http://voicesofmusic.org//images/strings.jpg Robert is right, the cap is a tad slender. It does look more shawmy than recordery. The overall look does however remind me a bit of the Verona Collection which we just looked at--and played. Those recorders sound much better than the modern copies. I heartily recommend this article http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html There are two bevels on the cap. A very small one at the top, and another ones extending down to the double engraving rings near the top. However, something about the shape says reed, but there really is not much to see. The music is playable, as well. Perhaps someone can put the music in Fronimo? dt It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C recorders usually had a removable cap, often with a brass band on the end, similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the pepper-pot covering the little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were turned so that the window was facing away from you. The edge between the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is a bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm. Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts. (Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate pretty well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.) ...Bob I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument. FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad, but there could be other designs I'm not aware of. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
I don't use a strap, but I like the way the buttons look :) dt At 10:51 AM 2/23/2009, you wrote: I like the idea of the tapes a lot better than buttons. If the lutes were tied to buttons, we would have a lot of old museum lutes with scratches on their backs. But I suppose if the old players routinely wore the same clothes we see in the paintings, there would have been scratches on the backs of the instruments - almost all of the baroque clothes have rows of buttons down the front. Contrastlingly Vermeer and some of the other Dutch painters show a lot of women holding lutes, dressed in slippery satin-type skirts, no tapes or buttons in view. Another topic for a lot more reasearch Nancy At 12:21 AM 2/22/2009, Martyn Hodgson wrote: The 'white spot' will be a small ivory button round which the holding gut or tape is looped. Incidentally, there's some doubt that the gut (or tape) fastened round a coat button: a contemporary engraving shows thin tapes (or ribbons) coming from the coat buttons (or cld be from inside the coat ie maybe round the player's back) and leading to the ivory button. A picture is in the archives MH --- On Sat, 21/2/09, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 21 February, 2009, 10:00 PM BTW, am I right that the gut is fixed with some glue near the neck (white spot)? JL - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Laurent de La Hyre Dear Jaroslav, You hook the gut on to one of the buttons of your coat to stabilise the lute while you are holding it. I seem to remember Mersenne mentioning it. See also Robert Spencer's article on the theorbo in Early Music. It is likely that Mouton is holding his lute this way in the famous picture of him. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Jaros^3aw Lipski [[1] mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: 21 February 2009 18:06 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Oh, I've forgot 2 other interesting details. The frets are double (except last 2), made of a thin gut with knots on the treble side. Both theorbo and the lute on the table has a folded double piece of gut going in the middle of the back (longside). It starts from the end pin (which is visible on the theorbo) and ends on the white spot (glue?) close to the place where the body meets the neck. There is a loop attached to the long gut - maybe some sort of the system for keeping the instrument while playing. I don't think it served for hanging the instrument on the wall. They wouldn't waist such a long piece of gut for this purpose. I hang it with a very short piece of used string attached to the peg box. Best Jaroslaw -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [3]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 4. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: three recorder continuo
The three recorders play a sort of organ continuo part--in three voices, of course, and the bass is an octave higher, like a four foot stop. It is a great sound for early french music if you have the players who can do it, or you can write out their parts. http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html dt At 08:29 AM 2/25/2009, you wrote: The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo group that was popular in France--a sort of portable organ. There is a fairly extensive literatature for three recorder continuo. I am not familiar with literature for 3 recorder continuo. Can you say more? Or give me pointers to some of the music? Thanks. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: three recorder continuo
Here is one of my favorite pix: Recorder continuo, with two colasciones http://www.recorderhomepage.net/inline/teofane.jpg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roman Turovsky wrote: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) RT Good point. The photo of the Hans Ott gittern isn't a good start for an entry on the mandore. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1969 - Release Date: 02/24/09 06:43:00
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Hello! I seem to have lost (read deleted) the link to this picture and can't seem to get back to it. Could someone volunteer to repost the web address? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams On 2/25/09 2:39 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Here are closeups of the strings and the bocal cap http://voicesofmusic.org//images/bocal.jpg http://voicesofmusic.org//images/strings.jpg Robert is right, the cap is a tad slender. It does look more shawmy than recordery. The overall look does however remind me a bit of the Verona Collection which we just looked at--and played. Those recorders sound much better than the modern copies. I heartily recommend this article http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html There are two bevels on the cap. A very small one at the top, and another ones extending down to the double engraving rings near the top. However, something about the shape says reed, but there really is not much to see. The music is playable, as well. Perhaps someone can put the music in Fronimo? dt It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C recorders usually had a removable cap, often with a brass band on the end, similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the pepper-pot covering the little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were turned so that the window was facing away from you. The edge between the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is a bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm. Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts. (Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate pretty well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.) ...Bob I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument. FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad, but there could be other designs I'm not aware of. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just now added, as I'm not a native speaker. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hi, all, Thanks, Mathias. Since you ask, I'd recommend using the more commonly understood string length as opposed to mensur in writing for general consumption. Otherwise, looks great to this mandore-illiterate but interested party. Best to all, and keep playing, Chris. Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de 2/25/2009 4:45 PM Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just now added, as I'm not a native speaker. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Here you are http://tinyurl.com/conmfc regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 10:23 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Hello! I seem to have lost (read deleted) the link to this picture and can't seem to get back to it. Could someone volunteer to repost the web address? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams On 2/25/09 2:39 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Here are closeups of the strings and the bocal cap http://voicesofmusic.org//images/bocal.jpg http://voicesofmusic.org//images/strings.jpg Robert is right, the cap is a tad slender. It does look more shawmy than recordery. The overall look does however remind me a bit of the Verona Collection which we just looked at--and played. Those recorders sound much better than the modern copies. I heartily recommend this article http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html There are two bevels on the cap. A very small one at the top, and another ones extending down to the double engraving rings near the top. However, something about the shape says reed, but there really is not much to see. The music is playable, as well. Perhaps someone can put the music in Fronimo? dt It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C recorders usually had a removable cap, often with a brass band on the end, similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the pepper-pot covering the little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were turned so that the window was facing away from you. The edge between the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is a bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm. Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts. (Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate pretty well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.) ...Bob I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument. FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad, but there could be other designs I'm not aware of. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Myself, I would probably differentiate between mandora/mandore and mandola based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just now added, as I'm not a native speaker. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Have a go on it, Euge! I'm no expert on the 1600 mandore. M Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu schrieb: Myself, I would probably differentiate between mandora/mandore and mandola based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just now added, as I'm not a native speaker. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bellman concert NYC
From: Daniel Swenberg Sorry about the last minute announcement. But, I thought I would mention a fun and free concert I am playing tonight at Columbia. It is music and texts by Carl Michael Bellman, the Swedish Rococo poet/ composer. The songs are fun and mostly acted, usually having to do with drinking, and women -- he formed a society for Bacchus... the deutsches Haus is between Amsterdam and Morniside on 116 Concert at 7 http://www.polyphony.com/polyphony.asp Daniel Swenberg http://web.me.com/theorboy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) my email client breaks that link, revealing another article that also needs a tweak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore relates a breif history of the region called Mandore. It has a section of related links which needs expansion to include a link to our article. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I may...if I can ever break away from invasive fishes. One day... Eugene -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:21 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'Roman Turovsky'; 'Lutelist' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Have a go on it, Euge! I'm no expert on the 1600 mandore. M Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu schrieb: Myself, I would probably differentiate between mandora/mandore and mandola based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just now added, as I'm not a native speaker. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net said: The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. A labium on the front of the instrument would tell us for certain, but this is obscured. by the music. I would expect Bass and quart bass recorders to use chanelling rather than a crook, too easy to lose a crook, and you already need a seperate piece to cover the block and form the windway. The crook is more natural to a shalm, and the very large head coupled to an alto/tenorish length puts me in mind of a shalm. The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo group that was popular in France--a sort of portable organ. yes, but is that music in that genre? The smaller recorders could just as easily be pitch pipes, quiet things for practice, or something left by an absent playing partner. If it is a recorder, the windway is to the back, but that is not unusual. for larger recorders it is the norm, only on small instruments can one bring the lips to a beak while fingering the tone holes. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Should we really describe it as a 'forerunner of the mandolin'? Surely a different family? I'm tired and it's near bedtime, otherwise I would add info about the Skene ms... Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Actually, the mandolin is quite a different instrument than the mandolin...in comparing Vivaldi to Calace. That of Vivaldi certainly carries many similarities to the soprano mandore of ca. 1600. I'm also tired and wishing it was bedtime here. Alas, several hours yet to go. Eugene -Original Message- From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:44 PM To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Should we really describe it as a 'forerunner of the mandolin'? Surely a different family? I'm tired and it's near bedtime, otherwise I would add info about the Skene ms... Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us said: On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net said: The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. A labium on the front of the instrument would tell us for certain, but this is obscured. by the music. after a fresh look at the painting (thanks for posting the link) I am certain this is not a recorder, enough of the head is shown that a labium would be visible if there, even if it was a great bass instrument (which it doesnt have room to be). -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
It really seems that the crook ends with the reed. I know that you exclued the basoon, but can we be sure if the rest of the instrument is not visible? Please have a look at Andrew Watts's early basoon: http://www.earlymusica.permutation.com/about_Andrew_Watts.htm .Here the crook looks longer, however on the picture we see it at the angle, thus looking shorter. They were in use as early as 1650. The shawm doesn't seem to fit the whole set of these instruments. But I don't insist. Just a thought :-) Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net said: The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder. A labium on the front of the instrument would tell us for certain, but this is obscured. by the music. I would expect Bass and quart bass recorders to use chanelling rather than a crook, too easy to lose a crook, and you already need a seperate piece to cover the block and form the windway. The crook is more natural to a shalm, and the very large head coupled to an alto/tenorish length puts me in mind of a shalm. The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo group that was popular in France--a sort of portable organ. yes, but is that music in that genre? The smaller recorders could just as easily be pitch pipes, quiet things for practice, or something left by an absent playing partner. If it is a recorder, the windway is to the back, but that is not unusual. for larger recorders it is the norm, only on small instruments can one bring the lips to a beak while fingering the tone holes. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's not near my bedtime, I'm not tired and looking forward to a guitar trio rehearsal. I don't dare say that I'll be rehearsing to play the lute (organologically speaking) that dare not say it's name on this list at a Shakespeare festival. However, I'd rather Eugene worked on his invasive fishes than a Wikipedia article. Assuming he's trying to keep them from invading, that is. Best to all, and keep playing. C. Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu 2/25/2009 5:57 PM Actually, the mandolin is quite a different instrument than the mandolin...in comparing Vivaldi to Calace. That of Vivaldi certainly carries many similarities to the soprano mandore of ca. 1600. I'm also tired and wishing it was bedtime here. Alas, several hours yet to go. Eugene -Original Message- From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:44 PM To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Should we really describe it as a 'forerunner of the mandolin'? Surely a different family? I'm tired and it's near bedtime, otherwise I would add info about the Skene ms... Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: It really seems that the crook ends with the reed. I know that you exclued the basoon, but can we be sure if the rest of the instrument is not visible? dulcians preceeded and overlapped the bassoon, dulcians are usually made from one or more pieces not intended to disasemble; bassoons are often jointed. The upper end of the one you posted has a brass cap surounding the ends of both ascending and descending bores, this is unusual, more commonly the descending bore is shorter. The laurent instrument's end shows one central bore, tapered to take the thread-lapped bocal. Praetorius is relevant here. The shawm doesn't seem to fit the whole set of these instruments. neither does a Dulcian or Bassoon, but a wind player is plausibly familiar with all of them. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - not Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maybe you could have a look there : http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html . I put this up a few months ago to introduce the French mandore. So, obviously enough, it's in French, well most of it ! Best, Jean-Marie === 25-02-2009 23:20:46 === Myself, I would probably differentiate between mandora/mandore and mandola based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net schrieb: Anyone feels like doing something useful? This need our attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument) Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just now added, as I'm not a native speaker. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 26-02-2009
