[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Martyn, Just another scenario. I've carefully checked where all the lines go, and it began to dawn on me that it was a painting procedure which went wrong. So lets try to reconstruct the process of painting this picture. Pesne knows very well that he can't ask Eleonore to sit for a very long time with her lute, so on the first session he makes a sketch of the whole figure marking only where the lute should be, and drawing approximate shape without any detail at all (this would take a reality short time for a skillful artist). The big robe apparently wasn't used as one can see the shape of her body around the waist area showing through the brown color of the lute. During the next session she would be asked to sit without a lute and he would be concentrating on her face solely using already oil paint or maybe putting a wash first. Another time he would paint her torso, without proceeding further than the top edge of the lute (but including it). Alternatively he could ask her to hold the lute for a moment to paint the upper part of the belly trying to find a proper color rather than focusing on any details like strings (the neck and lower part of the belly would be omitted). And now we are com! ing to the most important part where things went wrong! The last thing he would need her to pose were her hands. During that session he was painting her left hand only (right side of the picture), however he couldn't have done it without her holding the lute. Because he didn't want her to sit for long, he painted only lute's head and her palm ending on her pinky's side (including her lace-trimmed robe cuff). I made a very big close up on my 24 inch monitor, took a ruler and started measuring from the nut. Instantly it became obvious that if you prolonged the bottom line of the fingerboard's edge around a nut area you would end up where it should be (it would be absolutely parallel to the 1st string on the whole length with a proper distance from the edge as if 2 strings were missing). So this is what he intended to paint. On that particular day Eleonore brought her lute in continuo tuning because latter in the evening she was to accompany the Queen. Pesne painted some details of the lute that he could notice - like red strings beginning from the third course and the lack of 1st (and 2nd?) courses. It was rather tiring for her to keep the lute still in one position, so Pesne stopped painting after making sure that he can finish this area without her. Then there was the last session he needed her to pose. The right hand. And here the problems began. On that day she must have come with a lute set for solo playing. Pesne hasn't noticed it not being a lute player, and Eleonore didn't let him know as she (not having any experience as a painter) hadn't realized importance of this change. So Pesne started with the bottom area of the lute going up towards first 2 courses. He confidently painted the end of the bridge and her fingers proceeding diagonally along the lower part of the belly. At some point he wanted to connect this area of the picture with her left hand. He then drew the line of the first course aand..disaster!!! Sudenly he realized something went wrong. The discussion with the model starts, Eleonore is very surprised, he becomes more and more confused, but not wanting to disappoint the client he decides to hide his mistake especially that he (not being a lute player himself) doesn't feel it was his fault. Th! en he makes big efforts to cover this up and save the painting. In the first place he asks Elonore to raise the lute a little bit so he is able to connect two points of the first string nut groove -bridge hole. Note that the oval of the bottom edge of the belly does not have a perfect shape (in comparison to upper) as if he was correcting it not being sure where it should go. Then there was this most difficult part to hide. The bottom edge of the fingerboard. Pesne didn't know how to get himself out of this trouble, so he decided to put as dark paint in this area as possible so that it wouldn't be so obvious where the edge really should be. The rest was painted without Eleonore. The upper part of the lute (it looks quite artificial against her torso), strings, etc. he didn't care about any angles at that time because there was nothing to be done already. After adding the background, lower part of the robe and making finishing touches he showed his picture to Eleonore. She w! as very happy, because Pesne did his best to show her real bea! uty. She was flattered and even didn't notice that there was something wrong with her lute. And even if she did, she wouldn't mind as the painting had exceeded her most daring expectations. The happy end! This very likely story and the end result which for some of you may seem challenging the whole stringing idea behind this lute, could even confirm one that the dual purpose of this setting (solo-continu
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes
Thanks for this latest...! Very interesting. I have to say that in my experience it is the staff in these establishments who like piped music especially young men. To hell with the customers! I am pleased to report that at a recent concert in Hyde Park featuring Paul McCartney and Bruce Springsteen the organizer turned off the sound system at 10.30 p.m. sharp to comply with Westminster's health and safety requirements. Not a minute too soon either. This has sparked some controversy but it not only disturbs the residents but ruins the park. On the other hand the tube station which I travel from regularly (Caledonian Road) plays classical music - to deter local youth from congregating there and causing trouble and it seems to work! It's nice to have a few bars of Mozart as one waits for the lift and on Maundy Thursday we were actually treated to a little Palestrina! Whoever choses it is obviously on the ball! Monica - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 7:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Saturday morning quotes We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week more on loud versus quiet. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-sG Ron & Donna -- References Visible links 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-sG Hidden links: 2. http://http://wp.me/p15OyV-sG To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Dear Martyn, Obviously everything is possible. We could invent lots of scenarios on the spot. What I am trying to do however, is to simplify things. I can sense your reluctance in accepting that this particular instrument could have been the real thing and I can understand this as there are some features that are difficult to explain, but my attitude would be rather to find things that make sense and find what could be the reason for someone to do so. No one carefully restrings a lute in a very unusual but careful and logical way just to make a prop for a painting (or maybe she knew I would discover it and we will be talking about it and now she is laughing hearing it somewhere in the sky - it was just a pun of hers). If the picture was from 16th century Italy, I'd say it's a fake, but in 1745 Germany it seems to make sense. So what is that we don't like about it. As far as your objections are concerned I can see that it's mainly the angle of the strings and the bridge. Dealing with the ! bridge issue is easier as it is not as much off center as it may seem from the first impression. I measured the distance between the last bass string - top edge of the belly and compared to the distance from the first string - bottom edge of the belly. The difference isn't very significant, so it could be either painter's error or Eleonore moved all strings up from bass towards treble side. The angle of the strings is a little bit skewed, but again we could find many explanations for this too. One could be that Pesne didn't get it right because he didn't care if the strings show on the fingerboard or not. As for your and Louis's concerns about posing I can tell you (as my wife is a painter) that there are thousand ways to arrange a posing session without causing much fatigue for a model. As an Englishman probably you are familiar with the collection of the Royal family paintings in the National Portrait Gallery in London (close to Leicester Square tube station). Some of them have explanations underneath that the portrait was made only from the sketches made during very short posing sessions as the King was too busy to sit for a longer period of time. If I didn't read it I would never ever say it was made from some sketches. Some portraits look as if a painter spent many hours with the model. Absolutely unbelievable, but people knew their profession and ways to deal with difficult situations. Regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 21 lip 2012, o godz. 08:49: > > Dear Jaroslaw, > > It's clear that none us can present a definitive case about this > instrument. > > But just one other thought: a noble sitter would not expect to pose > indefinitely for their portrait and mostly only the face and general > physique would have been taken from life. You suggest it would have > been just the background: I suspect the clothes etc and any other > appendages (such as an instrument) would probably also have been > painted in separately. Is it not possible that even if the lute were > Elizabeth's own instrument it was lent to Pesne in a state without the > top two courses (possibly the strings had broken) - but he, realising > that strings ought to come from the bridge, made his own corrections > there but not at the nut.. All speculation of course. > > Mouton was a celebrated professional lutenist and we can > reasonably expect him to be have been concerned about the precise > depiction of his (sole?) means of income. > > regards > > Martyn > --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski wrote: > > From: JarosAA'aw Lipski > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 21:00 > > Luis, > We live in very different times. In past people were accustomed to > things that we wouldn't tolerate. As far as I know many people were > portrait with real instruments, otherwise we could say that all > iconography is rubbish. Is portrait of Moutton just a rubbish? Was he > holding a prop? A very reputable lute maker made an exact copy of that > instrument by making computer calculations on measurements taken from > the very picture. > As far as painting as an art is concerned there are ways to make things > much easier for a model like taking some sketches and then assembling > everything afterwards without a model. Then some corrections are made > by confronting it with reality. I am sure she wasn't posing in her > garden as can be seen on the picture. The whole background was added > independently. The whole beauty of Rococo (obviously if you like it) is > in that mixture of reality of figures and fantasy of landscapes. A > little bit soppy it is, but this is the way people loved it at that > time. > About your concerns on the dirty soundboard I'd say that one has to be > very cautious in making such statements as the text
[LUTE] A Collection of Italian Lute Trios (Various)
Hi, I uploaded new lute single line (Einstimmige) Lute-Trios at IMSLP A Collection of Italian Lute Trios (Various) 1.1.1 Giovanni Bassano: 7 Fantasias 1.1.2 Giovanni Briccio: In medio Ecclesiae 1.1.3 Adrian Willaert: Ricercar 1 1.1.4 Adrian Willaert: Ricercar 2 1.1.5 Adrian Willaert: Ricercar 9 1.1.6 Adrian Willaert: Qui veult aymer 1.1.7 Vincenzo Ruffo: La Desperata 1.1.8 Vincenzo Ruffo: Dormendo un Giorno 1.1.9 Vincenzo Ruffo: La Brava 1.1.10 Pietro Vinci: Agatha laetissime Enjoy them Anton link: http://imslp.org/wiki/A_Collection_of_Italian_Lute_Trios_%28Various%29 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lapicida, Erasmus - Tandernaken
Hi, I have uploaded a very beuttiful Tandernaken from Lapicida, Erasmus - Tandernaken There is a lot work inside! Enjoy it. score parts mp3 file (Because most of my Intavolations are never heard before, I decided to make a simple computer synthesized audio file for hearing control.) http://imslp.org/wiki/Tandernaken_%28Erasmus,_Lapicida%29#IMSLP243307 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Gabrieli, Giovanni - Ricercar added mp3 file
hi, I added a mp3 file for my new intavolation for lute duet (Ad Quartam) (Because most of my Intavolations are never heard before, I decided to make a simple computer synthesized audio file for hearing control.) --- Gabrieli, Giovanni - Ricercar -- Enjoy it Anton http://imslp.org/wiki/Ricercare_%28Canzon%29_%28Gabrieli,_Giovanni%29 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes
Thanks, well-spoken. David On 21 July 2012 08:55, Ron Andrico wrote: >We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week more on loud >versus quiet. >[1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-sG >Ron & Donna > >-- > > References > >Visible links >1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-sG > >Hidden links: >2. http://http://wp.me/p15OyV-sG > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
