[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Thank you for this. You now write 'My thought is that I'm sure there must have been slight variations' and, indeed, no one would disagree with this. The point at issue was (see your earlier below) is that both Ron Andrico and you said there was no relationship what(so)ever between the tempo of a solo lute dance and the tempo at which it was actually danced. On the original matter, my personal speculation is that the significant sarabande tempo shift is linked to Louis XIV's youthful fascination for dancing and the influence Lully had in this and later on the formation of the AcadA(c)mie Royale de Danse (1661) and the resultant tendency towards stylisation of the court dances. It would naturally take time for these sort of changes to be reflected outside France, especially in England soon after the trauma of the interregnum, so conservative Mace and English composers like Locke would still be thinking about the earlier faster type of the dance even into the 1670s. Martyn __ From: David Rastall d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 16:41 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands On Dec 17, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ...are you quite sure that you yourself really intend to say (below) ' with no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes'? Of course, a modern player can do what they like: but I think the issue raised was more to do with evidence of historical practice - hence Thomas Walker's reasonable request for early sources. Yes, certainly a reasonable request. And yes, that is what I intended to say. My response to Thomas Walker's request is: evidence of historical practice would most likely take the form of evidence gleaned from dancing masters of how the dance itself was to be done. Soa|go to the dancing masters for that. As to what I intended to say, just exactly what performance tempo meant to a lone lutenist in the early 17th century I couldn't say, but I'm sure there was plenty of variety in the ways dance pieces were interpreted in the absence of any structured environment involving dancers. I took the issue raised to be: early sources as a guide to contemporary performance tempi. Hence the reference to a recording by Bailes. I could be completely wrong here; I'm treading on ground I know very little about. But surely dance music is every bit as ambiguous as, say, ricercars and fantasias. Or was there actually a set tempo for all sarabandes performed between 1610 and 1640? If so, there's the answer to Thomas Walker's question. My thought is that I'm sure there must have been slight variationsa|and in the absence of metronome markings even the original sources would have been ambiguous on the subject. Davis R Martyn __ From: David Rastall [2]d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Ron Andrico [4]praelu...@hotmail.com; Thomas Walker [5]twlute...@hotmail.com; Lute List [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 14:48 Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Ron did not say there was no relationship whatever between playing and dancing a sarabande. He used the word adapted. Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: yes in answer to MH's question. Given what we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: definitely yes. The original question concerned specifically the French school of 1610-1640 and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes were frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metronome marking for playing all of Ballard's Entrees? I hope not. The dancing masters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dance itself. It was also considered scandalous. Do you have a tempo for scandalous? There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with or without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts to preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. David R On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the lute has no
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
On Dec 18, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The point at issue was (see your earlier below) is that both Ron Andrico and you said there was no relationship what(so)ever between the tempo of a solo lute dance and the tempo at which it was actually danced. Sorry, Martyn, but those were your words. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Well, I suppose it must have been a different Ron Andrico who wrote 'since lutes are and were inaudible when dancers' feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes.'. and a different David Rastall who wrote'I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes.' (see earlier messages...) Martyn __ From: David Rastall d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 18 December 2014, 13:06 Subject: Re: [LUTE] those sarabands On Dec 18, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The point at issue was (see your earlier below) is that both Ron Andrico and you said there was no relationship what(so)ever between the tempo of a solo lute dance and the tempo at which it was actually danced. Sorry, Martyn, but those were your words. -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
Neither Ron nor I were saying that there is “no relationship whatever between dancing and playing. That is your personal distortion of our words, which you correctly (for a change) quote here. My reasons for agreeing with Ron’s observation are already stated. Bye now, have a nice day. D On Dec 18, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Well, I suppose it must have been a different Ron Andrico who wrote 'since lutes are and were inaudible when dancers' feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes.'. and a different David Rastall who wrote'I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes.' (see earlier messages...) Martyn __ From: David Rastall d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 18 December 2014, 13:06 Subject: Re: [LUTE] those sarabands On Dec 18, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The point at issue was (see your earlier below) is that both Ron Andrico and you said there was no relationship what(so)ever between the tempo of a solo lute dance and the tempo at which it was actually danced. Sorry, Martyn, but those were your words. -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
I think you were - the relevant quotes are taken exactly from the emails you sent earlier (now deleted from your reply) and were not edited by me in any way! Ah well - but good that it's finally now agreed there ought to be some relationship between a solo lute performance of a dance and the tempo at which was danced. Martyn __ From: David Rastall d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 18 December 2014, 13:48 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands Neither Ron nor I were saying that there is no relationship whatever between dancing and playing. That is your personal distortion of our words, which you correctly (for a change) quote here. My reasons for agreeing with Ron's observation are already stated. Bye now, have a nice day. D On Dec 18, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Well, I suppose it must have been a different Ron Andrico who wrote 'since lutes are and were inaudible when dancers' feet scrape the floor, the music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes.'. and a different David Rastall who wrote'I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes.' (see earlier messages...) Martyn __ From: David Rastall [2]d_lu...@comcast.net To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 18 December 2014, 13:06 Subject: Re: [LUTE] those sarabands On Dec 18, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The point at issue was (see your earlier below) is that both Ron Andrico and you said there was no relationship what(so)ever between the tempo of a solo lute dance and the tempo at which it was actually danced. Sorry, Martyn, but those were your words. -- References 1. mailto:[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:d_lu...@comcast.net 3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 6. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
I am very glad that you were all sarabound to get out of that sarabind. It's been a very interesting educational discussion, addressing an annoying little uncertainty that has never been so directly comprehensively addressed to my satisfaction before. Way back in the 1980's my wife and I were a bass viol virginal duo named Sarabande, we played gigs all over the SE Pennsylvania, southern New Jersey northern Delaware region. For wedding gigs we had to adapt pavins, allemandes, (even the occasional saraband) and Masque dances to actual movements; processionals and somewhat more vigorous recessionals. No lute problems, never used my lutes for these gigs! The highlight engagement was an all-out period gig at the Dupont estate- live candles all over a huge fir tree, and more candles throughout the rooms as the only source of illumination (reading the music was a chore, one learns why earlier generations went to bed or early or went blind if they worked late) thousands of yards of 18 century drapes, table cloths, clothing in a Colonial era wooden mansion. I had my eyes on the fastest escape routes all through the evening. Dan On 12/18/2014 6:06 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: I think you were - the relevant quotes are taken exactly from the emails you sent earlier (now deleted from your reply) and were not edited by me in any way! Ah well - but good that it's finally now agreed there ought to be some relationship between a solo lute performance of a dance and the tempo at which was danced. Martyn __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: those sarabands
I would like to add that dance tempo changes still happen as music usage composer's whims dictate. Astor Piazzolla scandalized the traditional tango world with his Tango Nuevo (however he phrased it) There are now some very dark, slow, rhythmically variable tangos out there now. Some can even work on a good lute. Dan On 12/18/2014 8:41 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: I am very glad that you were all sarabound to get out of that sarabind. It's been a very interesting educational discussion, addressing an annoying little uncertainty that has never been so directly comprehensively addressed to my satisfaction before. Way back in the 1980's my wife and I were a bass viol virginal duo named Sarabande, we played gigs all over the SE Pennsylvania, southern New Jersey northern Delaware region. For wedding gigs we had to adapt pavins, allemandes, (even the occasional saraband) and Masque dances to actual movements; processionals and somewhat more vigorous recessionals. No lute problems, never used my lutes for these gigs! The highlight engagement was an all-out period gig at the Dupont estate- live candles all over a huge fir tree, and more candles throughout the rooms as the only source of illumination (reading the music was a chore, one learns why earlier generations went to bed or early or went blind if they worked late) thousands of yards of 18 century drapes, table cloths, clothing in a Colonial era wooden mansion. I had my eyes on the fastest escape routes all through the evening. Dan On 12/18/2014 6:06 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: I think you were - the relevant quotes are taken exactly from the emails you sent earlier (now deleted from your reply) and were not edited by me in any way! Ah well - but good that it's finally now agreed there ought to be some relationship between a solo lute performance of a dance and the tempo at which was danced. Martyn __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
