date:20160901

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

2016-09-01 Thread Markus Lutz

Seems as if my first message hadn't come directly to the lute list, 
except in Monicas reply down (I included the lute list with cc: ??):


One adding:
Possibly the Y (or sometimes V)-shaped -sign could mean a strum with the 
length of a half note, but I'm not sure about that, as there are no bar 
lines at all ...


Best regards
Markus



Am 01.09.2016 um 13:36 schrieb mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk:

Yes - I think the rather florid looking x or slash at the top of the
stave is a quaver or eighth note.  Should complement the dotted strokes.
The small x is an appoggiatura or upper note trill.
MOnica

Original Message
From: mar...@gmlutz.de
Date: 01/09/2016 9:07
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk",

Cc: "LutList"
Subj: Re: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

Probably the page is 62v - the numbering of the scans on the page is
quite misleading.

The x in this case probably mean an eigthth strum. That fits with
understanding the |. as a punctated strum.
In the manuscript there also seems to be a "x" for an appogiatura or
mordent from above.

Best regards
Markus


Am 01.09.2016 um 10:43 schrieb mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk:


Can't actually access the page you have given.  However I have a copy
of the ms.

The vertical dasshes below and above the highest line indicate the
strumming. Down from the line is a bass to treble stroke and up from
the line is a treble to bass stroke.
The open courses should be included in the chords provided that they
belong to the basic triad.  They don't include the "As" unless this

is

essential to make sense.
A dot after a stroke may indicate that it is a dotted note - but I
can't see which specific piece you are referring to.
An x is usually a descending appoggiatura from the note above.
Oblique dashes below the stave  usually mean that the chord is to be
sustained.
If you can tell me the page number or the title of the specific

pieces

I might be able to shed a bit more light.
BEst
Monica
Original Message
From: al...@musickshandmade.com
Date: 01/09/2016 8:05
To: "Lute List"
Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

I am hoping someone can help me understand some of the symbols on

this

   piece of Baroque guitar tablature - maybe Monica?
   Here is a facsimile copy:
   [1]http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page




   _0205.jpg
   1 ) Small vertical dashes above the first line: I understand this

is

an
   indication of strumming with the hand from the bottom up - or is

it

the
   other way?
   2) The dots after a vertical dash - like this "|."  : is that a
dotted
   (invisible) flag value -- or a bar line -- or?
   3) the 'x' - often following the dotted dash mentioned above:  a
shake
   or mordent??? If so it looks a little far away from its note...
   4) the 'y' that looks like the 'x' described above but more like a
'y'
   (or a 'v') and bigger: 
   5) Oblique dashes on the first and/or 5th line: no idea what these
   are...
   I am also kind of wondering if open strings are not sort of

implied

   within a chord ...
   Any help on any of the above appreciated. To me, it looks like
pretty
   amazing short-hand from someone who knew the instrument extremely
   well...
   Alain
   --

References

   1. 
http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page_0205.jpg






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html









--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

2016-09-01 Thread mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

I have never really studied this in detail. 
First of all the date. In the description at the beginning of the ms. 
it says 17th century with the date 1635 after the name  Isabel 
Langhenhove. I'm not sure if that is actually the date of the ms. Jim 
Tyler says mid-17th century and that seems a bit more likely especially 
as it includes some gavottes and at least one bourree which are more 
associated with Louis XIV and Lully - but I am not an expert on these 
things.
It is interesting that it is in French tablature because early French 
sources are few and far between.It uses Italian strumming symbols 
rather than the French system of putting note values on the stave. The 
earliest dated sources of this kind of notation are the Dupille mss.(F-
Psg ms. res. 2344/2349 and 2351). One of these is dated 1649. So 
Langhenhove might be slightly earlier.
I am not quite sure what you mean by the !Y! shape attached to the 
first line. The longer stroke marks followed by a dot are dotted 
quarter notes and the florid x symbol may be the complementary 8th 
note.
The music looks rather sketchy but is in what we (or I) refer to as 
"mixed" style - it combines strummed chords (most of which are the same 
as those represented by alfabeto in Italian sources) with plucked lute 
style passages. But it is a manuscript and possibly just a sort of aide 
memoire for the player. It is very difficult to judge these things for 
quality because the player may have elaborated on what is actually 
written.
Hope that is helpful.
Monica

Original Message
From: al...@musickshandmade.com
Date: 01/09/2016 16:28 
To: "LutList"
Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

Hi Monica,

Thank you for your science - the sequence seems to be : vertical dash 
with dot followed by the x, i.e. "|. x".

The 'Y' shape is attached to the first line, which I guess might mean 
some indication of strumming?

I just picked a random piece in the MS as an example -- it happens to 
be 
a saraband on p.205 of the microfilm - this may or may not correspond 
to 
anything outside the microfilm copy...

What is the overall quality of the music in that "Langhenhove" MS? It 
is 
dated 1635, which makes it fairly early but the notation seems to me 
very established and fluent.

Alain

On 09/01/2016 04:36 AM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> Yes - I think the rather florid looking x or slash at the top of the
> stave is a quaver or eighth note.  Should complement the dotted 
strokes.
> The small x is an appoggiatura or upper note trill.
> MOnica
>
> Original Message
> From: mar...@gmlutz.de
> Date: 01/09/2016 9:07
> To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk",
> 
> Cc: "LutList"
> Subj: Re: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature
>
> Probably the page is 62v - the numbering of the scans on the page is
> quite misleading.
>
> The x in this case probably mean an eigthth strum. That fits with
> understanding the |. as a punctated strum.
> In the manuscript there also seems to be a "x" for an appogiatura or
> mordent from above.
>
> Best regards
> Markus
>
>
> Am 01.09.2016 um 10:43 schrieb mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk:
>> Can't actually access the page you have given.  However I have a 
copy
>> of the ms.
>>
>> The vertical dasshes below and above the highest line indicate the
>> strumming. Down from the line is a bass to treble stroke and up from
>> the line is a treble to bass stroke.
>> The open courses should be included in the chords provided that they
>> belong to the basic triad.  They don't include the "As" unless this
> is
>> essential to make sense.
>> A dot after a stroke may indicate that it is a dotted note - but I
>> can't see which specific piece you are referring to.
>> An x is usually a descending appoggiatura from the note above.
>> Oblique dashes below the stave  usually mean that the chord is to be
>> sustained.
>> If you can tell me the page number or the title of the specific
> pieces
>> I might be able to shed a bit more light.
>> BEst
>> Monica
>> Original Message
>> From: al...@musickshandmade.com
>> Date: 01/09/2016 8:05
>> To: "Lute List"
>> Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature
>>
>> I am hoping someone can help me understand some of the symbols on
> this
>> piece of Baroque guitar tablature - maybe Monica?
>> Here is a facsimile copy:
>> [1]http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page

>> _0205.jpg
>> 1 ) Small vertical dashes above the first line: I understand 
this
> is
>> an
>> indication of strumming with the hand from the bottom up - or is
> it
>> the
>> other way?
>> 2) The dots after a vertical dash - like this "|."  : is that a
>> dotted
>> (invisible) flag value -- or a bar line -- or?
>> 3) the 'x' - often following the dotted dash mentioned above:  a
>> shake
>> or mordent??? If so it looks a little far away from its note...
>> 4) the 'y'

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

2016-09-01 Thread Alain


Hi Monica,

Thank you for your science - the sequence seems to be : vertical dash 
with dot followed by the x, i.e. "|. x".


The 'Y' shape is attached to the first line, which I guess might mean 
some indication of strumming?


I just picked a random piece in the MS as an example -- it happens to be 
a saraband on p.205 of the microfilm - this may or may not correspond to 
anything outside the microfilm copy...


What is the overall quality of the music in that "Langhenhove" MS? It is 
dated 1635, which makes it fairly early but the notation seems to me 
very established and fluent.


Alain





On 09/01/2016 04:36 AM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

Yes - I think the rather florid looking x or slash at the top of the
stave is a quaver or eighth note.  Should complement the dotted strokes.
The small x is an appoggiatura or upper note trill.
MOnica

Original Message
From: mar...@gmlutz.de
Date: 01/09/2016 9:07
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk",

Cc: "LutList"
Subj: Re: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

Probably the page is 62v - the numbering of the scans on the page is
quite misleading.

The x in this case probably mean an eigthth strum. That fits with
understanding the |. as a punctated strum.
In the manuscript there also seems to be a "x" for an appogiatura or
mordent from above.

Best regards
Markus


Am 01.09.2016 um 10:43 schrieb mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk:

Can't actually access the page you have given.  However I have a copy
of the ms.

The vertical dasshes below and above the highest line indicate the
strumming. Down from the line is a bass to treble stroke and up from
the line is a treble to bass stroke.
The open courses should be included in the chords provided that they
belong to the basic triad.  They don't include the "As" unless this

is

essential to make sense.
A dot after a stroke may indicate that it is a dotted note - but I
can't see which specific piece you are referring to.
An x is usually a descending appoggiatura from the note above.
Oblique dashes below the stave  usually mean that the chord is to be
sustained.
If you can tell me the page number or the title of the specific

pieces

I might be able to shed a bit more light.
BEst
Monica
Original Message
From: al...@musickshandmade.com
Date: 01/09/2016 8:05
To: "Lute List"
Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

I am hoping someone can help me understand some of the symbols on

this

piece of Baroque guitar tablature - maybe Monica?
Here is a facsimile copy:
[1]http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page
_0205.jpg
1 ) Small vertical dashes above the first line: I understand this

is

an
indication of strumming with the hand from the bottom up - or is

it

the
other way?
2) The dots after a vertical dash - like this "|."  : is that a
dotted
(invisible) flag value -- or a bar line -- or?
3) the 'x' - often following the dotted dash mentioned above:  a
shake
or mordent??? If so it looks a little far away from its note...
4) the 'y' that looks like the 'x' described above but more like a
'y'
(or a 'v') and bigger: 
5) Oblique dashes on the first and/or 5th line: no idea what these
are...
I am also kind of wondering if open strings are not sort of

implied

within a chord ...
Any help on any of the above appreciated. To me, it looks like
pretty
amazing short-hand from someone who knew the instrument extremely
well...
Alain
--

References

1. 
http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page_0205.jpg


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

2016-09-01 Thread mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

Yes - I think the rather florid looking x or slash at the top of the 
stave is a quaver or eighth note.  Should complement the dotted strokes.
The small x is an appoggiatura or upper note trill.
MOnica

Original Message
From: mar...@gmlutz.de
Date: 01/09/2016 9:07 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk", 

Cc: "LutList"
Subj: Re: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

Probably the page is 62v - the numbering of the scans on the page is 
quite misleading.

The x in this case probably mean an eigthth strum. That fits with 
understanding the |. as a punctated strum.
In the manuscript there also seems to be a "x" for an appogiatura or 
mordent from above.

Best regards
Markus


Am 01.09.2016 um 10:43 schrieb mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk:
>
> Can't actually access the page you have given.  However I have a copy
> of the ms.
>
> The vertical dasshes below and above the highest line indicate the
> strumming. Down from the line is a bass to treble stroke and up from
> the line is a treble to bass stroke.
> The open courses should be included in the chords provided that they
> belong to the basic triad.  They don't include the "As" unless this 
is
> essential to make sense.
> A dot after a stroke may indicate that it is a dotted note - but I
> can't see which specific piece you are referring to.
> An x is usually a descending appoggiatura from the note above.
> Oblique dashes below the stave  usually mean that the chord is to be
> sustained.
> If you can tell me the page number or the title of the specific 
pieces
> I might be able to shed a bit more light.
> BEst
> Monica
> Original Message
> From: al...@musickshandmade.com
> Date: 01/09/2016 8:05
> To: "Lute List"
> Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature
>
> I am hoping someone can help me understand some of the symbols on 
this
>piece of Baroque guitar tablature - maybe Monica?
>Here is a facsimile copy:
>[1]http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page

>
>_0205.jpg
>1 ) Small vertical dashes above the first line: I understand this 
is
> an
>indication of strumming with the hand from the bottom up - or is 
it
> the
>other way?
>2) The dots after a vertical dash - like this "|."  : is that a
> dotted
>(invisible) flag value -- or a bar line -- or?
>3) the 'x' - often following the dotted dash mentioned above:  a
> shake
>or mordent??? If so it looks a little far away from its note...
>4) the 'y' that looks like the 'x' described above but more like a
> 'y'
>(or a 'v') and bigger: 
>5) Oblique dashes on the first and/or 5th line: no idea what these
>are...
>I am also kind of wondering if open strings are not sort of 
implied
>within a chord ...
>Any help on any of the above appreciated. To me, it looks like
> pretty
>amazing short-hand from someone who knew the instrument extremely
>well...
>Alain
>--
>
> References
>
>1. 
> http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page_0205.jpg

>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>


-- 

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[LUTE] was Baroque guitar tablature - now follow a link

2016-09-01 Thread wayne lute

Hi Monica -

  The lute mail list robot often messes up links in the body of the message, 
but 
down at the bottom of the message is a âReferences: section with the correct 
link.
The Referenced link just worked for me, but your mail reader might be different.

http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page_0205.jpg 


 Wayne


> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature
> Date: September 1, 2016 at 4:43:01 AM EDT
> To: 
> Cc: LutList 
> 
> 
> Can't actually access the page you have given.  However I have a copy 
> of the ms.
> 
> The vertical dasshes below and above the highest line indicate the 
> strumming. Down from the line is a bass to treble stroke and up from 
> the line is a treble to bass stroke.
> The open courses should be included in the chords provided that they 
> belong to the basic triad.  They don't include the "As" unless this is 
> essential to make sense.  
> A dot after a stroke may indicate that it is a dotted note - but I 
> can't see which specific piece you are referring to.
> An x is usually a descending appoggiatura from the note above.
> Oblique dashes below the stave  usually mean that the chord is to be 
> sustained.
> If you can tell me the page number or the title of the specific pieces 
> I might be able to shed a bit more light.
> BEst
> Monica
> Original Message
> From: al...@musickshandmade.com
> Date: 01/09/2016 8:05 
> To: "Lute List"
> Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature
> 
> I am hoping someone can help me understand some of the symbols on this
>   piece of Baroque guitar tablature - maybe Monica?
>   Here is a facsimile copy:
>   [1]http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page
> 
>   _0205.jpg
>   1 ) Small vertical dashes above the first line: I understand this is 
> an
>   indication of strumming with the hand from the bottom up - or is it 
> the
>   other way?
>   2) The dots after a vertical dash - like this "|."  : is that a 
> dotted
>   (invisible) flag value -- or a bar line -- or?
>   3) the 'x' - often following the dotted dash mentioned above:  a 
> shake
>   or mordent??? If so it looks a little far away from its note...
>   4) the 'y' that looks like the 'x' described above but more like a 
> 'y'
>   (or a 'v') and bigger: 
>   5) Oblique dashes on the first and/or 5th line: no idea what these
>   are...
>   I am also kind of wondering if open strings are not sort of implied
>   within a chord ...
>   Any help on any of the above appreciated. To me, it looks like 
> pretty
>   amazing short-hand from someone who knew the instrument extremely
>   well...
>   Alain
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page_0205.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

2016-09-01 Thread mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk


Can't actually access the page you have given.  However I have a copy 
of the ms.

The vertical dasshes below and above the highest line indicate the 
strumming. Down from the line is a bass to treble stroke and up from 
the line is a treble to bass stroke.
The open courses should be included in the chords provided that they 
belong to the basic triad.  They don't include the "As" unless this is 
essential to make sense.  
A dot after a stroke may indicate that it is a dotted note - but I 
can't see which specific piece you are referring to.
An x is usually a descending appoggiatura from the note above.
Oblique dashes below the stave  usually mean that the chord is to be 
sustained.
If you can tell me the page number or the title of the specific pieces 
I might be able to shed a bit more light.
BEst
Monica
Original Message
From: al...@musickshandmade.com
Date: 01/09/2016 8:05 
To: "Lute List"
Subj: [LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

I am hoping someone can help me understand some of the symbols on this
   piece of Baroque guitar tablature - maybe Monica?
   Here is a facsimile copy:
   [1]http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page

   _0205.jpg
   1 ) Small vertical dashes above the first line: I understand this is 
an
   indication of strumming with the hand from the bottom up - or is it 
the
   other way?
   2) The dots after a vertical dash - like this "|."  : is that a 
dotted
   (invisible) flag value -- or a bar line -- or?
   3) the 'x' - often following the dotted dash mentioned above:  a 
shake
   or mordent??? If so it looks a little far away from its note...
   4) the 'y' that looks like the 'x' described above but more like a 
'y'
   (or a 'v') and bigger: 
   5) Oblique dashes on the first and/or 5th line: no idea what these
   are...
   I am also kind of wondering if open strings are not sort of implied
   within a chord ...
   Any help on any of the above appreciated. To me, it looks like 
pretty
   amazing short-hand from someone who knew the instrument extremely
   well...
   Alain
   --

References

   1. 
http://signtracks.com/facsimiles/Guitar/Baroque/Langhenhove/319_page_0205.jpg



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

[LUTE] was Baroque guitar tablature - now follow a link

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar tablature

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