[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room
If you are able to read German, there is also "Lautenbau" by Ekkehard Sachs, an engineer and avid luthier. His book covers many lute construction aspects, also the one in question. I did not regret buying it. On 01.07.19 16:40, Ron Andrico wrote: It seems excessively harsh to state that "We need to be wary of statements in Lundberg’s book, inasmuch as he died without finishing it...". My reference to Lundberg's comments were gleaned personal conversation with Lundberg. Yes, he was working hard on completing the book before he passed, and he very likely would have made further refinements, but the book was really a distillation of lengthy series of highly detailed articles previously published in American Lutherie, the quarterly journal of the Guild of American Luthiers. It is unkind to call into question an entire important body of work due to a sentence that was likely misplaced by a hasty editor. Apply your standard to other publications out there and we are compelled to discount the value of many works that have been given monumental status despite being rife with errors. Francesco. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:06 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Plucking Room We need to be wary of statements in Lundberg’s book, inasmuch as he died without finishing it and the publisher(s) chose to present it as is, although there are some things in it that he could not possibly have meant, such as “The one lute-family instrument being built during this period is the theorbo.†(p. 12) He seems to have been referring to the 1600-1680, but there was never a time for which that statement would be true. I don’t know he was trying to say. > On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:07 PM, ron.ba...@rwbanks.com wrote: > > While I'm a big fan of Lundberg's body of work, we'll need to agree to > disagree which camp the belly/soundboard it fits into. For what it's worth, > violin makers commonly refer to their tops as bellies as well...taxonomy > among luthiers can be very generic. > > Let's also not forget that Lundberg made the comment on the banjo and the > importance of sustain, when discussing the early development of the lute. > He also said the following on page 30 of Historical Lute Construction: > "However, the need to sustain some notes, thereby adding a new dimension to > changes in rhythm and phrasing, became more and more important; so much so > that the main direction of tonal development through the Renaissance periods > and into the Baroque period was towards increasing sustain." (Lundberg, > Robert. Historical Lute Construction. Tacoma Washington: Guild of American > Luthiers, 2002) > > Sustain with lutes is at best a relative term. I've played some lutes that > were as efficient as a Quaker Oats box, and some that would easily sustain > for 3-4 seconds. What I was driving at was that unlike membrane tops, a > conscious effort was made to match the energy driven into the soundboard > (belly) with a system that provided a proper match to keep that energy from > dissipating too quickly. Plate tuning, bar shape, bar location, and > possibly even belly scooping contribute to final outcome...which might be a > much more complex set of subsystems than a tensioned membrane. > > Let's also consider that like guitars, and unlike banjo's, Renaissance and > later lute bellies are structural and act both in tension and compression. > Membrane tops on the other hand, require a self-supporting structure, and > function using tension. Unless turned into cuir bouilli, membranes really > can't act in compression. > > I'll not hazard a guess regarding the violin comments, as YMMV. The violin > community does that instrument enough damage seeking pseudoscience answers > to shortcut time and good craftsmanship. > > Seriously though, I appreciate your comments, and am glad to be a part of > this community. I certainly don't hold the source of all truth regarding > the lute, so I'll gladly call myself out when my ideas go into attic Strad > territory. > > Ron Banks > Fort Worth, TX To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tailpieces (was Plucking Room)
> On Jul 1, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > Is the typo intentional? (Just wondering how much irreparable damage shawms > and tubas can really cause…) Judging from the editorial accuracy of my posts last night, the damage was to my eyes. > On 6/30/19 7:43 PM, howard posner wrote: >> At an LSA seminar ears ago we had an ad hoc band in which Bob Clair played >> shawm and Gus Denhard played tuba with a group of lutes ... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room
It seems excessively harsh to state that "We need to be wary of statements in Lundbergâs book, inasmuch as he died without finishing it...". My reference to Lundberg's comments were gleaned personal conversation with Lundberg. Yes, he was working hard on completing the book before he passed, and he very likely would have made further refinements, but the book was really a distillation of lengthy series of highly detailed articles previously published in American Lutherie, the quarterly journal of the Guild of American Luthiers. It is unkind to call into question an entire important body of work due to a sentence that was likely misplaced by a hasty editor. Apply your standard to other publications out there and we are compelled to discount the value of many works that have been given monumental status despite being rife with errors. Francesco. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:06 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Plucking Room We need to be wary of statements in Lundbergâs book, inasmuch as he died without finishing it and the publisher(s) chose to present it as is, although there are some things in it that he could not possibly have meant, such as âThe one lute-family instrument being built during this period is the theorbo.â (p. 12) He seems to have been referring to the 1600-1680, but there was never a time for which that statement would be true. I donât know he was trying to say. > On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:07 PM, ron.ba...@rwbanks.com wrote: > > While I'm a big fan of Lundberg's body of work, we'll need to agree to > disagree which camp the belly/soundboard it fits into. For what it's worth, > violin makers commonly refer to their tops as bellies as well...taxonomy > among luthiers can be very generic. > > Let's also not forget that Lundberg made the comment on the banjo and the > importance of sustain, when discussing the early development of the lute. > He also said the following on page 30 of Historical Lute Construction: > "However, the need to sustain some notes, thereby adding a new dimension to > changes in rhythm and phrasing, became more and more important; so much so > that the main direction of tonal development through the Renaissance periods > and into the Baroque period was towards increasing sustain." (Lundberg, > Robert. Historical Lute Construction. Tacoma Washington: Guild of American > Luthiers, 2002) > > Sustain with lutes is at best a relative term. I've played some lutes that > were as efficient as a Quaker Oats box, and some that would easily sustain > for 3-4 seconds. What I was driving at was that unlike membrane tops, a > conscious effort was made to match the energy driven into the soundboard > (belly) with a system that provided a proper match to keep that energy from > dissipating too quickly. Plate tuning, bar shape, bar location, and > possibly even belly scooping contribute to final outcome...which might be a > much more complex set of subsystems than a tensioned membrane. > > Let's also consider that like guitars, and unlike banjo's, Renaissance and > later lute bellies are structural and act both in tension and compression. > Membrane tops on the other hand, require a self-supporting structure, and > function using tension. Unless turned into cuir bouilli, membranes really > can't act in compression. > > I'll not hazard a guess regarding the violin comments, as YMMV. The violin > community does that instrument enough damage seeking pseudoscience answers > to shortcut time and good craftsmanship. > > Seriously though, I appreciate your comments, and am glad to be a part of > this community. I certainly don't hold the source of all truth regarding > the lute, so I'll gladly call myself out when my ideas go into attic Strad > territory. > > Ron Banks > Fort Worth, TX To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tailpieces (was Plucking Room)
Is the typo intentional? (Just wondering how much irreparable damage shawms and tubas can really cause...) On 6/30/19 7:43 PM, howard posner wrote: At an LSA seminar ears ago we had an ad hoc band in which Bob Clair played shawm and Gus Denhard played tuba with a group of lutes ... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
