[LUTE] Re: Rite of Spring (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 before being hijacked to India)
For a musical phrase found in music across genres, go to YouTube and search ‘the lick’. It is truly entertaining, and speaks to the universality of music. I would LOVE to find ‘the lick’ in an old lute tune. Anyone? Cheers ted jordan > On Jul 13, 2019, at 6:06 PM, howard posner wrote: > > >> On Jul 13, 2019, at 3:37 AM, Daniel Shoskes, with admirable conciseness, >> wrote: >> >> https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-of-spring/ > > I hear the correspondence of some of the notes of the opening of Rite of > Spring with the chorus of We Are the Champions, but don’t hear enough musical > similarity to get me speculating about whether there was an actual link. > > The first time I heard Rite of Spring, at age 11 or 12, I was struck > immediately by how similar the opening was to a phrase from the 1934 song, > “Little Man You’ve Had a Busy Day,” with which it shares a six-note sequence > starting with the second syllable of “crying:" > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0UVV0TNr_g=pl%2Cwn > > The song seems to have serious legs over the years. Eric Clapton recorded it > in 2016: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaFRAVyskwE=pl%2Cwn > > Rite of Spring is rightly considered a revolutionary work, but it’s also a > collection of really good tunes, and if you put Italian lyrics to that > opening solo and stuck it in a Puccini aria, it would fit right in. > > And of course, Freddie Mercury was heavily into early 20th-century Italian > opera. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Rite of Spring (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 before being hijacked to India)
On Jul 13, 2019, at 3:37 AM, Daniel Shoskes, with admirable conciseness, wrote: > https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-of-spring/ I hear the correspondence of some of the notes of the opening of Rite of Spring with the chorus of We Are the Champions, but don’t hear enough musical similarity to get me speculating about whether there was an actual link. The first time I heard Rite of Spring, at age 11 or 12, I was struck immediately by how similar the opening was to a phrase from the 1934 song, “Little Man You’ve Had a Busy Day,” with which it shares a six-note sequence starting with the second syllable of “crying:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0UVV0TNr_g=pl%2Cwn The song seems to have serious legs over the years. Eric Clapton recorded it in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaFRAVyskwE=pl%2Cwn Rite of Spring is rightly considered a revolutionary work, but it’s also a collection of really good tunes, and if you put Italian lyrics to that opening solo and stuck it in a Puccini aria, it would fit right in. And of course, Freddie Mercury was heavily into early 20th-century Italian opera. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. On Jul 13, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: I guess period documentation is out of the question for the moment. Though I find it very odd that the best match can be found in the music of Giovanni Gabrieli. His music or the process of composition is not really explained with the theorists. That is why one had to study with him personally. How he really taught his methods remains a mystery. But obviously, this sparked whole new schools all over Europe. The question is: did musicians get information about music in India, how was it transferred? I would love to dig into the archives of Venice, Florence etc. concerning trade agreements, embassies etc. I have no funds, I'll leave it to people compelled by the musical evidence. Indian Music is also taught only to disciples. This is still the case today, and the music has been preserved for 500 years and more. (Dagar family schools for example) We have the rare opportunity to study this music and learn something about Early Music this way, for example how Musica Ficta rules are established, or general things like tempi and rhythm. Even if it just heightens the senses and awareness of rhythmic cycles and hidden ostinato models. From 1600 onwards, it is much easier to find clear matches with Indian music. Logically this means something has changed *towards* it. The music is almost always of Venetian School heritage (Valentini, Bertali etc.), basically what one finds in Partiturbuch Ludwig and similar collections. I recently found someone from South India who is very good at suggesting Ragas for European Music. Some pieces just ring the bell instantly, for example this one: [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube. com_watch-3Fv-3DfLnp-2D1lgc44=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=Ijk ZZqW7jnnsWIdAvEMkLVl2zyq3-1pJFfX63F5N4e8=gyL6FGO2ToegrkSDCJjjGi4J3 BM9j_oZzM_7UP1sK9E= Raga Keeravani/Kirwani - a model set in the harmonic minor scale. But it is not the scale, but special phrases that make a Raga. In the Sonata you can hear quasi-glissandi (though written as discrete chromatic notes), which the musicians happily accept. It is not "sounds similar to Kirwani", it really is the exact structure and approach of the notes. Valentini gives it every polyphonic treatment possible within the boundaries of the model. When someone from India tells me that this is an exact and correct representation of the Raga, I'm inclined to believe him. Anyway, I will dig deeper and maybe find more convincing examples. On 13.07.19 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote: Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similaritiesâeven if granted to be strongâconstitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com _watch-3Fv-3D0J2QdDbelmY=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2 jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=IjkZZqW7 jnnsWIdAvEMkLVl2zyq3-1pJFfX63F5N4e8=XXmite3gqITctTXnzOo9FpLQoDkYFZ Kt0MS4sW6WhD4= On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.classicfm.c om_discover-2Dmusic_queen-2Dwe-2Dare-2Dchampions-2Drite-2Do=DwIFaQ =l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1f tlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=IjkZZqW7jnnsWIdAvEMkLVl2zyq3-1pJFfX63F5N4
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
Excellent reply, Tristan. Not that my opinion matters, but please do carry on. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 11:32 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar Thank you Ron for this encouragement. As always: sadly the music alone doesn't prove anything. But I encourage everyone to play with Indian musicians, even only tabla. One can learn a great deal about rhythmic cycles in lute music. On 13.07.19 16:43, Ron Andrico wrote: > I appreciate positive insights into similarities in music that in some > small way tie seemingly disparate cultures together. And I appreciate > the enthusiasm of discovery as expressed by younger lute fanciers. The > lute world is populated by far too many individuals who are absolutely > certain they have it all figured out, and who love to indulge in > cynical judgements when confronted by ideas emerging from outside their > zone of comfort. While research, time and experience instruct us to > temper the language with which we describe a discovery or an insight, I > prefer to encourage fresh ideas about old music. > > RA > __ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf > of Braig, Eugene > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 1:32 PM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar > > Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" > aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference > to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially > given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a > collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that > *would* be interesting. > I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similarities—even if > granted to be strong—constitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet > again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to > me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically > ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. > Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf > Of Tristan von Neumann > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar > This is no coincidence. > The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel > Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard > and loved it. > Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: > [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY > On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > > > [2]https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite > -o > > f-spring/ > > > >> > >> > >>> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] > >>> > >>> > >>> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. > >>> > >>> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: > >>> > >>> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga > >>> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. > >>> > >>> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. > >>> > >>> > >>> Both mashups can be heard here: > >>> > >>> > [3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar > >>> -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh > >>> > >>> > [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir > >>> itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix > >>> > >>> > >>> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. > >>> > >>> > >>> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - > >>> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is > >>> also easy. > >>> > >>> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. > >>> > >>> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the > >>> concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but > require adjustment. > >>> > >>> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought > (300+). > >>> > >>> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of > trolling. > >>> > >>> > >>> [Thank you for your attention.] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1.
[LUTE] Re: Kalmar 21068 manuscript
There is some information about the MS in my 1977 articles (in Swedish) at [1]http://www.tabulatura.com/kalmar725.pdf [2]http://www.tabulatura.com/kalmarorig.pdf An inventory of the MS can be found inJan Olof Rudén. Music in Tablature: A Thematic Index with Source Descriptions of Music in Sweden. Stockholm: Svenskt Musikhistoriskt Arkiv, 1981. Another inventory is to be found at [3]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=S-Klm21068=eng =all To my knowledge there is no facsimile of the MS. You have to ask for copies from the museum at [4]i...@kalmarlansmuseum.se Den tors 11 juli 2019 kl 11:24 skrev Mark Probert <[5]probe...@gmail.com>: Hello, all. I've finding it difficult to locate a facsimilie of the Kalmar KLM 21.068 manuscript. Can anyone enlighten me on the history of this ms? And, if possible, where I could get hold of a copy or e-copy? Many thanks .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Hälsning / Regards / Cordialement / Mit freundlichen Gruessen Kenneth Sparr Artillerigatan 63 S-114 45 Stockholm SVERIGE / SWEDEN / SUÃDE / SCHWEDEN eller / or / ou / oder Strömstigen 25 S-149 51 Nynäshamn SVERIGE / SWEDEN / SUÃDE / SCHWEDEN Mobile: 076-1380441 [7]kennethsp...@gmail.com [8]www.tabulatura.com -- References 1. http://www.tabulatura.com/kalmar725.pdf 2. http://www.tabulatura.com/kalmarorig.pdf 3. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=S-Klm21068=eng=all 4. mailto:i...@kalmarlansmuseum.se 5. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:kennethsp...@gmail.com 8. http://www.tabulatura.com/
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
Thank you Ron for this encouragement. As always: sadly the music alone doesn't prove anything. But I encourage everyone to play with Indian musicians, even only tabla. One can learn a great deal about rhythmic cycles in lute music. On 13.07.19 16:43, Ron Andrico wrote: I appreciate positive insights into similarities in music that in some small way tie seemingly disparate cultures together. And I appreciate the enthusiasm of discovery as expressed by younger lute fanciers. The lute world is populated by far too many individuals who are absolutely certain they have it all figured out, and who love to indulge in cynical judgements when confronted by ideas emerging from outside their zone of comfort. While research, time and experience instruct us to temper the language with which we describe a discovery or an insight, I prefer to encourage fresh ideas about old music. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Braig, Eugene Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 1:32 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similarities—even if granted to be strong—constitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > [2]https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite -o > f-spring/ > >> >> >>> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] >>> >>> >>> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. >>> >>> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: >>> >>> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga >>> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. >>> >>> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. >>> >>> >>> Both mashups can be heard here: >>> >>> [3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar >>> -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh >>> >>> [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir >>> itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix >>> >>> >>> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. >>> >>> >>> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - >>> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is >>> also easy. >>> >>> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. >>> >>> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the >>> concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. >>> >>> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). >>> >>> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. >>> >>> >>> [Thank you for your attention.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY 2. https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o 3. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar 4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I guess period documentation is out of the question for the moment. Though I find it very odd that the best match can be found in the music of Giovanni Gabrieli. His music or the process of composition is not really explained with the theorists. That is why one had to study with him personally. How he really taught his methods remains a mystery. But obviously, this sparked whole new schools all over Europe. The question is: did musicians get information about music in India, how was it transferred? I would love to dig into the archives of Venice, Florence etc. concerning trade agreements, embassies etc. I have no funds, I'll leave it to people compelled by the musical evidence. Indian Music is also taught only to disciples. This is still the case today, and the music has been preserved for 500 years and more. (Dagar family schools for example) We have the rare opportunity to study this music and learn something about Early Music this way, for example how Musica Ficta rules are established, or general things like tempi and rhythm. Even if it just heightens the senses and awareness of rhythmic cycles and hidden ostinato models. From 1600 onwards, it is much easier to find clear matches with Indian music. Logically this means something has changed *towards* it. The music is almost always of Venetian School heritage (Valentini, Bertali etc.), basically what one finds in Partiturbuch Ludwig and similar collections. I recently found someone from South India who is very good at suggesting Ragas for European Music. Some pieces just ring the bell instantly, for example this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLnp-1lgc44 Raga Keeravani/Kirwani - a model set in the harmonic minor scale. But it is not the scale, but special phrases that make a Raga. In the Sonata you can hear quasi-glissandi (though written as discrete chromatic notes), which the musicians happily accept. It is not "sounds similar to Kirwani", it really is the exact structure and approach of the notes. Valentini gives it every polyphonic treatment possible within the boundaries of the model. When someone from India tells me that this is an exact and correct representation of the Raga, I'm inclined to believe him. Anyway, I will dig deeper and maybe find more convincing examples. On 13.07.19 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote: Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similarities—even if granted to be strong—constitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o f-spring/ [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. Both mashups can be heard here: https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also easy. Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. [Thank you for your attention.] To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I'm OK with this approach and wouldn't want to be perceived as discouraging. I'd certainly prefer "insight" to "discovery" in these cases. I suppose I'm really just encouraging that language be realistically "tempered." Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:43 AM To: Braig, Eugene ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar I appreciate positive insights into similarities in music that in some small way tie seemingly disparate cultures together. And I appreciate the enthusiasm of discovery as expressed by younger lute fanciers. The lute world is populated by far too many individuals who are absolutely certain they have it all figured out, and who love to indulge in cynical judgements when confronted by ideas emerging from outside their zone of comfort. While research, time and experience instruct us to temper the language with which we describe a discovery or an insight, I prefer to encourage fresh ideas about old music. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Braig, Eugene Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 1:32 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similarities—even if granted to be strong—constitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > [2]https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite -o > f-spring/ > >> >> >>> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] >>> >>> >>> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. >>> >>> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: >>> >>> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga >>> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. >>> >>> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. >>> >>> >>> Both mashups can be heard here: >>> >>> [3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar >>> -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh >>> >>> [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir >>> itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix >>> >>> >>> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. >>> >>> >>> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - >>> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is >>> also easy. >>> >>> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. >>> >>> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the >>> concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. >>> >>> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). >>> >>> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. >>> >>> >>> [Thank you for your attention.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY 2. https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o 3. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar 4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I appreciate positive insights into similarities in music that in some small way tie seemingly disparate cultures together. And I appreciate the enthusiasm of discovery as expressed by younger lute fanciers. The lute world is populated by far too many individuals who are absolutely certain they have it all figured out, and who love to indulge in cynical judgements when confronted by ideas emerging from outside their zone of comfort. While research, time and experience instruct us to temper the language with which we describe a discovery or an insight, I prefer to encourage fresh ideas about old music. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Braig, Eugene Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 1:32 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similaritiesâeven if granted to be strongâconstitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > [2]https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite -o > f-spring/ > >> >> >>> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] >>> >>> >>> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. >>> >>> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: >>> >>> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga >>> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. >>> >>> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. >>> >>> >>> Both mashups can be heard here: >>> >>> [3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar >>> -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh >>> >>> [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir >>> itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix >>> >>> >>> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. >>> >>> >>> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - >>> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is >>> also easy. >>> >>> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. >>> >>> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the >>> concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. >>> >>> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). >>> >>> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. >>> >>> >>> [Thank you for your attention.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY 2. https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o 3. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar 4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similarities—even if granted to be strong—constitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o > f-spring/ > >> >> >>> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] >>> >>> >>> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. >>> >>> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: >>> >>> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga >>> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. >>> >>> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. >>> >>> >>> Both mashups can be heard here: >>> >>> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar >>> -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh >>> >>> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir >>> itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix >>> >>> >>> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. >>> >>> >>> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - >>> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is >>> also easy. >>> >>> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. >>> >>> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the >>> concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require >>> adjustment. >>> >>> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). >>> >>> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. >>> >>> >>> [Thank you for your attention.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > >
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-of-spring/ [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. Both mashups can be heard here: https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also easy. Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. [Thank you for your attention.] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I'll answer with a happy: Sit Tight For Unnecessarities! I see people have not changed. Talking about Julian Breams and some guys's lost gig and nails all in a circle, but everyone has to weigh in with non-relevant commentary. On 13.07.19 11:42, Matthew Daillie wrote: You seem to have a short memory Tristan. On April 24 of this year you wrote: '..yes, I'm back... But I will not talk about India.' Best, Matthew Le 13 juil. 2019 à 08:55, Tristan von Neumann a écrit : [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. Both mashups can be heard here: https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also easy. Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. [Thank you for your attention.] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I’m not surprised: many lutenists have had lunch at Curry-In-a-Hurry on Lexington Ave in NYC! RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jul 13, 2019, at 2:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] > > > A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. > > I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: > > The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga > Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. > > The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. > > > Both mashups can be heard here: > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix > > > If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. > > > Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - > probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also > easy. > > Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. > > There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts > are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. > > The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). > > I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. > > > [Thank you for your attention.] > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-of-spring/ > > > >> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] >> >> >> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. >> >> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: >> >> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga >> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. >> >> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. >> >> >> Both mashups can be heard here: >> >> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh >> >> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix >> >> >> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. >> >> >> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - >> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also >> easy. >> >> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. >> >> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts >> are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. >> >> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). >> >> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. >> >> >> [Thank you for your attention.] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
You seem to have a short memory Tristan. On April 24 of this year you wrote: '..yes, I'm back... But I will not talk about India.' Best, Matthew Le 13 juil. 2019 à 08:55, Tristan von Neumann a écrit : > [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] > > > A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. > > I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: > > The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga > Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. > > The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. > > > Both mashups can be heard here: > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix > > > If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. > > > Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - > probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also > easy. > > Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. > > There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts > are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. > > The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). > > I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. > > > [Thank you for your attention.] > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
[News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. Both mashups can be heard here: https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also easy. Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. [Thank you for your attention.] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
