[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:07 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players > to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning? No, it’s common practice to tune the diapasons to the fretted notes if tuning them to G, Ab, Bb, B, C, C#, Eb, E or F#. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Never ever. There seem to be people, though, who shift their 4th frets a bit down so as to get something close to the pure major third on the 1st to 6th courses. There's no need at all to do that IMHO as long as the lute is properly tuned. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Alain Veylit Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Datum: 23.07.2019, 18:07 Uhr An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning? To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
And not to forget Stefan Lundgren's chamber opera on that very incident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMkbZ3tfFjs Best wishes, David At 19:18 +0200 23/7/19, Lex van Sante wrote: The name of the violinist was Petit, who thought that his host (Weiss) had spoken against him when he was applying for a job in Dresden. Cheers, Lex Op 23 jul. 2019, om 17:58 heeft howard posner het volgende geschreven: The biter was a violinist. The bitee was Weiss. On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another musician? I can't remember the details- I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. They didn't have the internet back then. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
The name of the violinist was Petit, who thought that his host (Weiss) had spoken against him when he was applying for a job in Dresden. Cheers, Lex > Op 23 jul. 2019, om 17:58 heeft howard posner het > volgende geschreven: > > The biter was a violinist. The bitee was Weiss. > >> On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >> >> Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another >> musician? I can't remember the details- >> I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. >> They didn't have the internet back then. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
The biter was a violinist. The bitee was Weiss. > On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another > musician? I can't remember the details- > I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. > They didn't have the internet back then. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another musician? I can't remember the details- I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning. They didn't have the internet back then. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
sometimes even with bagpipes. RT On 7/22/2019 1:59 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments. so it is not a problem there. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What precisely is meant by 'meantone' temperament on the lute? was Re: Lute Temperaments
Martyn wrote: "Much is freely bandied with phrases about 1/4 comma, 1/6 comma, 1/8 comma and other unequal temperaments but rarely ... is it ever spelt out what precise numerical fretting positions are actually employed..." ..or what comma is used, one might add. It does make a difference, and also historically the two commas were differently favoured for calculating temperaments. Regards Stephan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Juli 2019 09:27 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list Betreff: [LUTE] What precisely is meant by 'meantone' temperament on the lute? was Re: Lute Temperaments Further to all this, but on a slightly different tack: what precisely is it that individuals mean when they advocate some particular form of unequal temperament on the lute? Much is freely bandied with phrases about 1/4 comma, 1/6 comma, 1/8 comma and other unequal temperaments but rarely (indeed never in this latest thread) is it ever spelt out what precise numerical fretting positions are actually employed by the writer (see below for an example in ET of the sort of thing I mean). Recently I enquired, off list to avoid possible embarrassment, of one contributor who seemed very firm in their convictions and asked precisely what fretting pattern they employed and later even sent an example (for ET) of the sort of simple numerical information I was asking about. Here it is (obviously, this theoretical example doesn't take into account the usual refinements necessary to adjust for take-off point at the bridge and the slight effect on pitch of displacement of a string when pressed down to the fingerboard): --- -- For example, in ET: fret distance to fret from bridge (to 4 significant figures) 0 (nut) 1. 1 0.9439 2 0.8909 3 0.8410 4 0.7938 5 0.7493 6 0.7072 7 0.6675 8 0.6301 9 0.5947 100.5614 etc.. --- It would surely be helpful in understanding an individual's preference for the particular temperament they advocate if the precise fretting positions were stated in any communication. Who knows, it might even lead to some sort of consensus MH On Tuesday, 23 July 2019, 00:15:45 BST, G. C. wrote: Dear Rainer, when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say, that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT versions. For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything. My + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or heavily indoctrinated. Best wishes G. On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1][1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote: Go to [2][2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 8 and press "Related Links". I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, but I cannot remember. Rainer PS We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has changed his mind :( -- References 1. mailto:[3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 2. [4]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 4. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] What precisely is meant by 'meantone' temperament on the lute? was Re: Lute Temperaments
Further to all this, but on a slightly different tack: what precisely is it that individuals mean when they advocate some particular form of unequal temperament on the lute? Much is freely bandied with phrases about 1/4 comma, 1/6 comma, 1/8 comma and other unequal temperaments but rarely (indeed never in this latest thread) is it ever spelt out what precise numerical fretting positions are actually employed by the writer (see below for an example in ET of the sort of thing I mean). Recently I enquired, off list to avoid possible embarrassment, of one contributor who seemed very firm in their convictions and asked precisely what fretting pattern they employed and later even sent an example (for ET) of the sort of simple numerical information I was asking about. Here it is (obviously, this theoretical example doesn't take into account the usual refinements necessary to adjust for take-off point at the bridge and the slight effect on pitch of displacement of a string when pressed down to the fingerboard): --- -- For example, in ET: fret distance to fret from bridge (to 4 significant figures) 0 (nut) 1. 1 0.9439 2 0.8909 3 0.8410 4 0.7938 5 0.7493 6 0.7072 7 0.6675 8 0.6301 9 0.5947 100.5614 etc.. --- It would surely be helpful in understanding an individual's preference for the particular temperament they advocate if the precise fretting positions were stated in any communication. Who knows, it might even lead to some sort of consensus MH On Tuesday, 23 July 2019, 00:15:45 BST, G. C. wrote: Dear Rainer, when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say, that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT versions. For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything. My + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or heavily indoctrinated. Best wishes G. On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1][1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> wrote: Go to [2][2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 8 and press "Related Links". I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, but I cannot remember. Rainer PS We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has changed his mind :( -- References 1. mailto:[3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 2. [4]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798 3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 4. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Some inspiring quotes: "I once had a lute whose frets were loose, and I could play nothing, nothing but the blues ... " (Robert Johnson) "Temperaments are affairs of taste, not affairs of state." (Talleyrand, quoting Rameau quoting Aristotle's lost treatise on music). "Playing a lute with loose frets is to music what driving a car without a steering wheel is to public safety. Highly hazardous." (Public knowledge, and the reason why Volkswagen recalled all its lutes manufactured in 2015). "Loose frets on a lute is why I play the guitar" (Eddie Van Halen) "You need a lot of guts to be playing the lute theses days" (anonymous sheep not wanting to get confused for a cat). "If your frets are in the spot your lute maker told you to put them, don't f---ink move them!", George Carlin. I agree with George, even though sometimes my lute will disagree... From personal experience, the more you move a fret, the more it will move of its own accord, and rarely a graceful one. Alain On 7/22/19 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory statement, barbs and all. But we dwell in an age that places far too much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations stand without remarks. We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have been on the public stage for many years. What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. And I do not value the manner in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus sales. As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us today as applied to our chosen repertory. Martyn H pointed out, as I have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. As for the lute, the frets move. Move them until the music sounds right. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence. As a person who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L25094-236TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
