[LUTE] Density of Savarez KF Alliance Strings?
Dear all, Does anyone know the exact density of Savarez KF Alliance Strings? (to feed the string calculator with the correct info ;-)) That would be really helpful! Many thanks, Susanne Herre To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Arnolt Schlick
Thanks so much to you all! Merci! Am 29.04.2016 um 23:35 schrieb William Brohinsky: There is an arrangement (whether of the whole book or just selected pieces, I can't tell yet, things are slow today) on IMSLP for 2 lutes by Anton Hoeger (he spells it with o-with-umlaut) on the Transcriptions tab of [1]http://imslp.org/wiki/Tabulaturen_etlicher_Lobgesang_(Schlick,_Ar nolt). There is a web page that provides the table translating German lute tab to course-and-fret at [2]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C16/1512schli ck.html if you want to DIY. It is possible that Ron Andrico has made transcriptions into french tab of at least the Maria Zart von edler Art, which Mignarda recorded (you can find info here: [3]https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/maria-zart-von-edler-art-b y-arnolt-schlick-c-1455-1521 and info on his published books of tab here: [4]http://www.mignarda.com/editions/index.html). Back when I was playing with the UCONN Collegium Musicum, he was kind enough to send a copy of his edited french tab score for an Air de Court that I had to accompany on about 2 day's notice, so its possible, even if he hasn't included it in one of his anthologies (or has, for that matter) that he'd find a way to get something to you. ray On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Susanne Herre <[5]mandolinens...@web.de> wrote: Dear lute friends, Would someone know where to find some pieces by Arnolt Schlick in French tablature? Schlick, Arnolt. Tabulaturen Etlicher lobgesang und lidlein uff die orgeln und lauten [...]. Mainz: Peter Schoeffer 1512 Thanks a lot for any help, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links 1. http://imslp.org/wiki/Tabulaturen_etlicher_Lobgesang_(Schlick,_Arnolt) 2. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C16/1512schlick.html 3. https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/maria-zart-von-edler-art-by-arnolt-schlick-c-1455-1521 4. http://www.mignarda.com/editions/index.html 5. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html Hidden links: 8. http://imslp.org/wiki/Tabulaturen_etlicher_Lobgesang_%28Schlick,_Arnolt%29 9. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C16/1512schlick.html 10. https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/maria-zart-von-edler-art-by-arnolt-schlick-c-1455-1521 11. http://www.mignarda.com/editions/index.html
[LUTE] Arnolt Schlick
Dear lute friends, Would someone know where to find some pieces by Arnolt Schlick in French tablature? Schlick, Arnolt. Tabulaturen Etlicher lobgesang und lidlein uff die orgeln und lauten [...]. Mainz: Peter Schoeffer 1512 Thanks a lot for any help, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] tablature for 'pulchra es amica mea' by Palestrina
Dear all, Would someone have and be willing to share his/her tablature version of 'Pulchra es amica mea' by Palestrina, without the cantus (for lute in G)? Or could someone give me a hint to where I could find it? Many thanks in advance! All the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Sweet was the song
Dear all, Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sweet was the song
Dear Bernd and Markus, Thank you a lot! What a complicated lute part ;-) ! Did he use a plectrum? ;-) Have a nice evening, Susanne Am 07.05.2015 um 21:20 schrieb Markus Johann Mühlbauer: Dear Susanne, My Google-Fu says it's somewhere in the William Ballet Lute Book, which can be found in the library of Trinity College Dublin, a digital copy is here: http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=MS408_001 It is on page 76 (as numbered with pencil in the left upper corner), if you download the PDF it's on page 80 there. Best regards, Markus Am 07.05.2015 um 21:02 schrieb Susanne Herre: Dear all, Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Avoiding cracks and lute parts getting unglued - dry weather
Dear all, who helped! Thank you a lot! I will certainly try different of your proposals! One question which comes to me is: What is more dangerous: the dryness in itself and over a longer time or the sudden change from humid to dry? Because if I try to increase the humidity in the case and then I am unpacking the instrument in a dry place - it could be even more dangerous? (Referring also to what Martin wrote...) All the best, Susanne Am 11.01.2015 um 18:53 schrieb Charles Mokotoff: I've used the D'Addario system in my guitar case for a while now. It seems to work quite well. But there is really no warning system when theA humidpaksA need to be replaced. On the guitar you handle them daily since oneA actually goes in the soundhole, you extract it and put it back each time you play. But on the lute you just toss them inside the case. When you handle them you can tell they need to be replaced because they become hard, less gel-like then when you first get them. At that point, they are basically useless. If you keep your case closed and if you have a good case (it helps to have one with a rubber gasket all the way around, not sure if lute cases come this way?) the humidpaks will last longer, perhaps even all winter. If they become hard they need to be replaced. It is possible to recharge them with various methods if you would like to save some money, though I've had mixed results with that. I also keep one of these in my lute case, clips on nicely: [1]https://www.stringsbymail.com/oasis-case-humidifier-2121.html Regards, Charles On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:24 PM, stephen arndt [2]stephenwar...@verizon.net wrote: I am trying the D'Addario Two-Way Humidification System on my various instruments this winter. Since this is my first time using them, it is too early for me to say how well they work. I bought mine at the local Guitar Center, which probably doesn't exist where you live. You can order them at various places online, though. Here is one link, where you can read numerous customer reviews, which may help you to decide if you want to try it: [3]http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Waves-Humidipak-Automatic-Humidity/d p/B000OMG0KI/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t Good luck! Stephen -Original Message- From: Susanne Herre Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2015 8:52 AM To: LuteNet Subject: [LUTE] Avoiding cracks and lute parts getting unglued - dry weather Dear lute friends, It's winter time, so e.g. in Central Europe here it can be quite dry outside. As a result of a train trip on one of those dry days the table of my baroque mandolin loosened from the body although I avoided to put my instrument next to heatings and put some water inside the case. What might be the reasons of those things happening? Is it about the changing from the train to the outside e.g.? Is it the dryness inside the (often too strongly) heated train? Can it happen in a few seconds/minutes having laid the instrument next to a hidden heating? What are you doing to avoid those miseries? Is it better to loosen the strings? How much water and in which way do you put it into the case? Many thanks for helpful hints! Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.stringsbymail.com/oasis-case-humidifier-2121.html 2. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net 3. http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Waves-Humidipak-Automatic-Humidity/dp/B000OMG0KI/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Avoiding cracks and lute parts getting unglued - dry weather
Dear lute friends, It's winter time, so e.g. in Central Europe here it can be quite dry outside. As a result of a train trip on one of those dry days the table of my baroque mandolin loosened from the body although I avoided to put my instrument next to heatings and put some water inside the case. What might be the reasons of those things happening? Is it about the changing from the train to the outside e.g.? Is it the dryness inside the (often too strongly) heated train? Can it happen in a few seconds/minutes having laid the instrument next to a hidden heating? What are you doing to avoid those miseries? Is it better to loosen the strings? How much water and in which way do you put it into the case? Many thanks for helpful hints! Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] theorbo on airplane
Dear all, Sorry for a question which arises often here. I have to fly with my theorbo whose case is 1,63m long and I am wondering if it may fit on an extra seat. The body goes into the neck at approx. 56 cm and it is 40cm wide. Otherwise what are your experiences with theorboes in flightcases (in this case: the grey-white Czech one) in the storage of the plane? Would be nice if you could share your experiences! Thank you and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] si dolce è 'l tormento by Monteverdi
Dear lute lovers, I am searching si dolce è 'l tormento by Monteverdi from the collection Quarto scherzo delle ariose vaghezze by Carlo Milanuzzi, 1624. (the facsimile if possible) A tenor wants me to play an accompaniment for him and gave me the arranged version with an interesting combination of instruments ;-) Fisarmonica, Cornetto or Cor in Fa, tromba da tirarsi and theorbo... (you can find that in IMSLP). There is another version in ChoralWiki with only the voice and a written out continuo for a keyboard instrument, but I would really like to see the facsimile and play from it. It seems not so easy to find someone who owns this one. If one of you has access to this facsimile it would be very very kind if you could share a copy with me. All the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ancor che col partire
Thank you so much everyone who helped me with a version of Ancor! That was very kind of you all! All the best, Susanne Schon gehoert? WEB.DE hat einen genialen Phishing-Filter in die Toolbar eingebaut! [1]http://produkte.web.de/go/toolbar References 1. http://produkte.web.de/go/toolbar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ancor che col partire
Dear = all, Does anyone have an intavolation of all parts of Ancor = che col partire by Rore and would kindly share it with me? I have to = play it in a concert next week but only have the version without the sopran= o voice but have to accompany some trombone player who plays the diminution= s of the lowest voices... Thanks for any help! Best wishe= s, Susanne 3D Schon geh= ouml;rt? WEB.DE hat einen genialen Phishing-Filter in die = Toolbar eingebaut! [1]htt= p://produkte.web.de/go/toolbar References 1. 3Dhttp://produkte.web.de/go/toolbar; To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Dear David, Interesting points I never heard of before. In which way do the mss sources support your opinion of the fermata of the first note? What evidence do we have to play graces in pieces by Francesco? Why is it possible that the first statement is not a real statement? Best wishes, Susanne - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 There are several issues here. The first is that the opening note may be said to have an implied coronoa, or fermata in the historical sense, creating a time free zone (TFZ) which may be played longer or shorter, or with graces appropriate to beginning a piece. The mss sources support this. In this respect, the first note is like the last note. Second is that, similar to a tonal imitative answer there is a rhythmic imitative answer: in both cases the answer may be different than the opening statement. NB The first statement is not always the real statement It is tempting to correct No 33 according to No 34, but that makes two assumptions, one, that the first note is not qualitatively different in some respect, and, second, that there is some sort of urtext, e.g. the comopser's intent. The idea of an urtext has been largely discredited--the main reason is that the sources do not support it. Even Bach's cello suites do not have an urtext. Nonetheless, the two make a great pair of pieces, and I for one am grateful that there are different versions of these and other pieces. dt At 05:23 AM 11/24/2010, you wrote: We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Thank you for all your responses! Sorry I didn't write clearly. I know of three versions which were kindly given to me by David van Oijen: - Siena Manuscript - Intabolatura di Liuto di M. Francesco da Milano [...] Libro Terzo, Gardano 1562 - Theatrum Musicum - Petrus Phalesius, Antuerpiensi 1571 All these versions have the opening motif with a rhythm being semibreve-minima-minima I think it is strange to have an alternation of the motif as soon as in the first imitation and I was thinking of any reason of notation / printing problems. But my theory also seems not to be very convincing because they could have started the first imitation on an upbeat if they want to use bar lines. On his CD of 2008 Hopkinson Smith plays the version written in Siena, Gardano and Phalese. It is very interesting, Jean-Marie, to know about this english version with corrected opening motif. If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting to know about that. Thanks to all, Susanne - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com; Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? La Compagna, perfect, but not La Sosia ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the introductory motive are slightly, but significantly different. It seems impossible to me to adopt the same rhythmical symetry (semibreve, quarter, quarter) in the introduction and its answer in 33; I feel that Arthur's option, comforted by the English version in Cambridge Add Ms 3056, is more satisfactory and preserves the coherence in the imitation. But of course, that's only my twopence... :-) Among the recordings I could put my hands on, Paul O'Dette, Chris Wilson, Anthony Bailes, Massimo Lonardi, Hopkinson Smith share this opinion and all choose to play the rectified version (3 semi breves at the opening), perhaps it is not just a hasard ? Best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 14:25:10 == We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so
[LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandolin at Kedleston Hall
Dear Stewart, Eugene and all, Thanks for sharing this interesting painting! I think we cannot be sure that this a neapolitan mandolin. I suppose this instrument is more the older lute-like instrument because of the following aspects: - where the fingerboard passes into the belly - there are the points of the fingerboard (Deckenspitzen in German?), that's not typical for a neapolitan mandolin - there is no hint that the strings are attached to the end of the instrument, e.g. there is no decoration at the lower end of the belly - maybe what seems to a hint for the neapolitan mandolin is the board-shaped peg-box with backward fitted pegs but we also find that an lute-like mandolins (like instruments made by Stradivari) And indeed it would be really early for the neapolitan mandolin to have spread to England... But to make a more precise statement we should have a picture of a better quality or see the picture by ourselves. What is also very interesting: If we can call this instrument a baroque mandolin we then have one more example for quill technique on this instrument... Best wishes, Susanne - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin at Kedleston Hall Dear Eugene, Many thanks indeed. That is an interesting point - that the Neapolitan mandolin would be a comparatively new instrument for the young lady to be playing. Just for the record, my friend has told me that the painting is dated 1754, which is after the first mention of the instrument, but before the first tutor books were published. One wonders how quickly the mandolin spread in England at this time. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of EUGENE BRAIG IV Sent: 24 May 2010 01:07 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandolin at Kedleston Hall PS: Mid 18th-c. is right about right for extant instruments to begin appearing in decent numbers. The first wave of mandolin popularity (and almost all the first method books beginning in the 1760s) happened in Paris. Without knowing anything about the family's history, I suspect that portraying themselves with a mandolin this early in that movement was a demonstration of their cosmopolitan stylishness. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:00 pm Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin at Kedleston Hall To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Eugene, In view of this discussion of Neapolitan mandolins, would you or anyoneelse care to comment on a painting of what I believe to be a Neapolitan mandolin at Kedleston Hall in Derbyshire. I was recently sent the following query from a friend who is researching the music there. -o-O-o- If you go to http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w- findaplace/w-kedles tonhall then click on 'Meet the family' the first picture is of Lady Caroline Colyear (1733-1812) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Portmore, who married Nathaniel Curzon in 1750: there is a charming portrait in the Family Corridor of her playing the mandolin ?? , with Nathaniel standing, by Arthur Devis, dated 1754. Please could you identify the instrument! -o-O-o- Any observations would be much appreciated. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Eugene C. Braig IV Sent: 17 May 2010 18:19 To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Lute Dmth'; 'Susanne Herre' Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 5:50 AM To: Lute Dmth; Susanne Herre Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Did not violinists play the mandolin, especially the Neapolitan wire strung instrument tuned the same? [Eugene C. Braig IV] However, there isn't any evidence that the Neapolitan type existed until the mid 18th c. at the earliest. Instruments (some with somewhat dubious labels) don't appear until the 1740s and obvious designated repertoire not until the 1760s. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Sorry, I nearly don't know anything about the mandora. When I look up in Morey - he writes that the mandoras of a string length from 60 to 70 cms with a sickle-shaped peg-box which he examined were built from 1782 to 1798. That is pretty late, isn't it? 60 to 70 cms, that's like a bigger renaissance lute (alto or tenor) and I think this instrument Faustino holds doesn't look like a size of a big renaissance lute, does it? But of course we can suppose things and we can put all suppositions in question... Regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de; Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Thank you for this Mandoras came in a variety of sizes (and varying numbers of courses): the smallest extant of which I'm aware is around 60cm string length which looks pretty close to the instrument Faustina is depicted as holding. I'm unclear why because Hasse composed a mandolin concerto it should mean that his wife played the mandolin. Do we know the dedicatee of the concerto - was it Faustina? regards MH --- On Mon, 17/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 17 May, 2010, 19:27 Thank you! Sorry, but I can't understand why the instrument on the painting of Faustina Bordoni should be a mandora because it is much smaller and Hasse composed a mandolin concerto... Did he compose anything for mandora...? Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Lute List ; [3]Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Many thanks again for this latest. I hope you won't mind if I continue the discussion in this interesting area. What comes out of all this is that, leaving to one side Tyler's unsubstantiated assertion, there's no evidence that professional theorbo players 'often' also played the mandolin in performance. Incidentally, Faustina Bordoni is the famous wife of Hasse I mentioned earlier; whether she is playing a mandolin or a 5 course mandora in the well known painting is moot. To move on slightly. You say that historically 'It was common that musicians played many different instruments'; I'm afraid I'm also not sure that this really was the case. It is certainly true that a few professional 17thC guitarists also played theorbo (Bartolotti, de Visee) but as far as I'm aware there's no evidence that most did. Indeed, I don't think that there's any evidence most professional guitarists played anything else than the guitar, noteably of course the famous Corbetta (Monica ?). Similarly although we know that a few professional 18thc lute players also played theorbo (SL Weiss, Baron, F Conti) there's little evidence that this practice was general amongst other lutenists at the time (Weichenberger, Lauffensteiner, Count Losy et al), much less amongst the mid 17thC generation of lutenists such as the Gautiers, Dufault, et al where I can only think of Hurel and Hotman with theorbe pieces to their name (and some/all of the extant pieces attributed to the latter may be contemporary arrangements). On the contrary, instruments which we might think to be very similar (string length, tessitura) like the theorbo and the large continuo gallichon (in A), sought by Kuhnau for St Thomas's, seem to have had their own dedicated players. In short, other than some individual cases, I'm really not persuaded that there was ever historically the sort of wide and general interchangeability of instruments which we commonly try to practice nowadays. rgds MH --- On Mon, 17/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 17 May, 2010, 11:27 Thank you, Martyn. Yes, much more research is necessary! But it is good to have the questions. With this we can learn more and more but questions will never end what is a good thing. Agnolo Conti - you are right, I can't find any information that he was theorbo player despite of Tylers, he has it from Hammond (I didn't see that) - but there is at least one piece of him which is for solo mandolin (a bure in a tablature), I don't know of an opera piece... (where is it written?) Conti also wrote
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Thank you! That sounds interesting! I'm looking forward to hear about your paper und read it when you have finished it : ) Kind regards and best wishes, Susanne - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Thank you for this. The information on dates and sizes of mandoras from the source you quote is incorrect: you may care to look at the various papers on the mandora (gallichon) written by Donald Gill, Pietro Prosser, Dieter Kirsch and myself which contain much of what is actually known. I'm currently working on an extended paper which I hope to see published next year. Known extant instruments survive with string lengths ranging from 60cm up to 90cm (tuned in A), though even slightly smaller ones and larger ones than these were known historically. The earliest extant instrument is dated 1688 and is of the large continuo type (in nominal A or B). The earliest of the smaller instruments extant is dated 1700. The years of peak production of the small mandora were the 1740s. The painting of Faustina Bordoni by Bartolomeo Nazari is in the Handel House in London. I have examined it and a small mandora would certainly fit with the instrument represented in the depiction. regards MH --- On Tue, 18/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 18 May, 2010, 9:45 Sorry, I nearly don't know anything about the mandora. When I look up in Morey - he writes that the mandoras of a string length from 60 to 70 cms with a sickle-shaped peg-box which he examined were built from 1782 to 1798. That is pretty late, isn't it? 60 to 70 cms, that's like a bigger renaissance lute (alto or tenor) and I think this instrument Faustino holds doesn't look like a size of a big renaissance lute, does it? But of course we can suppose things and we can put all suppositions in question... Regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Susanne Herre [2]mandolinens...@web.de; Lute Dmth [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Thank you for this Mandoras came in a variety of sizes (and varying numbers of courses): the smallest extant of which I'm aware is around 60cm string length which looks pretty close to the instrument Faustina is depicted as holding. I'm unclear why because Hasse composed a mandolin concerto it should mean that his wife played the mandolin. Do we know the dedicatee of the concerto - was it Faustina? regards MH --- On Mon, 17/5/10, Susanne Herre [4]mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre [5]mandolinens...@web.de Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List [7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 17 May, 2010, 19:27 Thank you! Sorry, but I can't understand why the instrument on the painting of Faustina Bordoni should be a mandora because it is much smaller and Hasse composed a mandolin concerto... Did he compose anything for mandora...? Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Lute List ; [3]Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Many thanks again for this latest. I hope you won't mind if I continue the discussion in this interesting area. What comes out of all this is that, leaving to one side Tyler's unsubstantiated assertion, there's no evidence that professional theorbo players 'often' also played the mandolin in performance. Incidentally, Faustina Bordoni is the famous wife of Hasse I mentioned earlier; whether she is playing a mandolin or a 5 course mandora in the well known painting is moot. To move on slightly. You say that historically 'It was common that musicians played many different instruments'; I'm afraid I'm also not sure that this really was the case. It is certainly true that a few professional 17thC guitarists also played theorbo (Bartolotti, de Visee) but as far as I'm aware there's no evidence that most did. Indeed, I don't think that there's any evidence most professional
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Thank you, Martyn. Yes, much more research is necessary! But it is good to have the questions. With this we can learn more and more but questions will never end what is a good thing. Agnolo Conti - you are right, I can't find any information that he was theorbo player despite of Tylers, he has it from Hammond (I didn't see that) - but there is at least one piece of him which is for solo mandolin (a bure in a tablature), I don't know of an opera piece... (where is it written?) Conti also wrote a sonata for mandolin and bass, in tablature Of course we don't know who has written this in tablature... Was it Conti? Maybe Sauli? Was Sauli only a mandolin player? Or did he also play theorbo as Tyler writes (from Zuth?) Hasse was married to Faustina Bordoni who played the mandolin (there is a painting) You are right about Colista. Of course I don't think that people who wrote opera parts or mandolin concertos a.s.o. must have been mandolin players... But I think as there are tablatures for mandolin it seems likely that there were at least some players who played lute/theorbo and mandolin. It was common that musicians played many different instruments. Especially if they played plucked instrument than they maybe played more than one... So they have more variation of colours... We didn't find any music for mandolin by Johann Sigismund Weiss yet but at least we know that he seems to have been playing lute, mandolin, bass viol and oboe etc... in one concert in London 1718... Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute Dmth Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Many thanks for this. It as an interesting and largely unexplored area which I think we both feel needs much more good research. Regarding the names you list, I don't see that this actually makes the necessary link between professional theorbo/lute players and those also recognised as playing the mandolin. In short, because an 18th century composer wrote pieces with mandolin, in an opera say, does not require him to play the instrument. As you'll be aware, there was a fashion in this period ie early 18th century (persisting through to Mozart's time) for writing obbligato mandolin parts to, for example, operatic arias and many composers seemed to have responded to this popular demand. This, of course, doesn't mean they played the mandolin much less played it professionally or, for that matter, that they played the theorbo if this was listed for BC in one of their works. To take a few examples: - Agnolo Conti who wrote a piece with 'mandolino' in one of his operas was not necessarily a mandolin player. Nor was he known, as far as I'm aware, as a tiorba player, but his more famous composer namesake Francesco Conti certainly was. Francesco himself wrote at least one aria with 'mandolino' as the taste of the day demanded, but this doesn't mean he played the instrument. - the immensely celebrated opera composer Hasse certainly wrote for mandolin and scored for theorbo in operas but there's no evidence he played either instrument; but there is indeed a picture of his equally famous wife (mentioned in the list) playing a large mandolin type instrument (tho' it has been suggested it might be a 5 course mandora) but no evidence that she played theorbo. - Colista is known as a theorbo player but I can't find any mandolin music by him much less that he was a recognised mandolin player. Much the same appears to apply to the other names listed. Two composers mentioned in the list may have been known for playing the mandolin since there are a few extant solos by them: Ceccherini and Cappelini. Tyler says they were also known as theorbo players but all I can find is that Ceccherini scored for tiorba in the BC; moreover these two flourished in the mid-17th century. I think the problem may arise from things like Tyler's unsubstantiated (as far as I'm aware) assertion that 'Very little is known of Filippo Sauli, except.like Conti and many other composers and players of the mandola/mandolino he was also a theorbist'. This also directly equates composing for mandolin with actually playing it professionally and hence, as suggested earlier, to inferences which might not be justified. What I was asking for was some documentary (or other) evidence describing the same person playing both the mandolin and the lute/theorbo professionally. I'd be delighted if we can identify closer recorded links between the two but, in the absence of clear evidence, I think the question, whether theorbo players 'often' played the mandolin
[LUTE] Re: Piccinini-thumb-index
Thank you. You are right about questions : ) - Original Message - From: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Piccinini-thumb-index Hi Susanne, Questions make us tick, answers are usually boring, aren't they? You're right about Piccinini. He was a follower of the then fashionable TO technique. Dowland, Laurencini, Howett and others seem to have used TO , although Dowland is said to have started his career using TI.. At least, that is what Stobeaus wants us to believe. 1. Von der Rechten Handt. Die Rechte Hand soll kurtz für dem Stege gehalten u. d. kleine finger steif aufgesetzet u. gehalten werden. D. daume soll starck ausgestrecket werden, das er fast ein glied den andern fingern vorgehe. Es sollen auch die finger einwertz unter den daumen fein zu sich gezogen werden, dz der _resonans_ fein starck klinge. Der daume soll auswertz nit einwertz, geschlagen werden, wie die Alten zu thun pflegen, u. gemeinlich die Niederländer und Alte Teutschen. Denn es _probiret_ worden, das es weit besser den daumen auswertz zuschlagen, klinget reiner scherffer u. heller, dz ander klinget gar faull u. dümpffig. Auswertz gebrauchen den daumen diese Berümbte Lautenisten, _In Germania: Gregorius Ruwet [Huwet], d. Dulandus Anglus,_ welcher doch anfänglich einwendig den daumen gebraucht. _In Italia:_ Zu Rohm _Laurentinus,_ zu _Padua Hortensius._ _In Gallia_ Borquet , Mercurius Polandus_ u. andere mehr. Wenn volle griffe zuschlagen, gebraucht man alle 4 finger. Wenn _Coloraturen,_ bisweilen mit dem daumen und Zeiger, bisweilen d. Zeiger u. mittelste finger wie drunten bey den _Coloraturen_ soll gedacht werden. --From Donna May Arnold, The Lute Music and Related Writing in the Stammbuch of Johann Stobaeus, Ph.D. diss., No. Texas State University, 1982, pp. 102-3. She provides only a summary, no translation. I don't think the instructions should be attr. to Stobaeus. He may simply have acquired an already completed book (his name is squeezed onto one page), or had a teacher or someone write them into his Stammbuch (a S'buch is a kind of autograph book, or commonplace book). They seem to be related to Besard's instructions. The S'buch also has another set of instructions in the older style of Waissel. ajn (boston). here is a translation by Stewart McCoy, June, 2001 [amendment by Markus Lutz] 1. On the Right Hand. The right hand is to be held close to the bridge, and the little finger firmly placed and held down. The thumb is to be stretched out strongly, so that it stands out almost as a limb [so that it stands out one knuckle] to the other fingers. The fingers are to be pulled cleanly inwards under the thumb, so that the sound resonates cleanly and strongly. The thumb is to be struck outwards, not inwards like the people in the past used to do, and commonly the Dutch and old Germans. For it has been proved that it is far better to strike the thumb outwards, it sounds purer, sharper, and brighter, the other sounds quite rotten and muffled. These famous lutenists used the thumb outside: In Germany: Gregorius Ruwet [=Huwet], Dowland the Englishman, who at first used his thumb the other way. In Italy: in Rome Laurencini, in Padua Hortensius. In France Bocquet, Mercure the Pole, and many more. If you strike full chords, you use all four fingers [=three fingers + thumb]; for divisions, [p! lay] sometimes with the thumb and index finger, sometimes with the index and middle finger, see below under Divisions. Nowadays most players stick to one technique, usually TI. Nigel North is a notable exception (not anchoring his pinky on the belly BTW). Fact is we play a much wider ranging repertoire than the players of old. I've tried to use both techniques but this has proven to be not very practical. So I stick to TI. Cheers, Lex Op 15 mei 2010, om 20:25 heeft Susanne Herre het volgende geschreven: Piccinini Cap. X Per far questi Gruppi, e tirate col Police Indice come ordinariamente s'usa, si deve tenere il Police molto in fuori e l'indice molto sotto, come una croce... Do I understand right that he doesn't mean thumb-in here but thumb-out...? The thumb should be outward and the index below it...? Sorry for many questions... Kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Thank you! Sorry, but I can't understand why the instrument on the painting of Faustina Bordoni should be a mandora because it is much smaller and Hasse composed a mandolin concerto... Did he compose anything for mandora...? Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Lute List ; [3]Susanne Herre Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Many thanks again for this latest. I hope you won't mind if I continue the discussion in this interesting area. What comes out of all this is that, leaving to one side Tyler's unsubstantiated assertion, there's no evidence that professional theorbo players 'often' also played the mandolin in performance. Incidentally, Faustina Bordoni is the famous wife of Hasse I mentioned earlier; whether she is playing a mandolin or a 5 course mandora in the well known painting is moot. To move on slightly. You say that historically 'It was common that musicians played many different instruments'; I'm afraid I'm also not sure that this really was the case. It is certainly true that a few professional 17thC guitarists also played theorbo (Bartolotti, de Visee) but as far as I'm aware there's no evidence that most did. Indeed, I don't think that there's any evidence most professional guitarists played anything else than the guitar, noteably of course the famous Corbetta (Monica ?). Similarly although we know that a few professional 18thc lute players also played theorbo (SL Weiss, Baron, F Conti) there's little evidence that this practice was general amongst other lutenists at the time (Weichenberger, Lauffensteiner, Count Losy et al), much less amongst the mid 17thC generation of lutenists such as the Gautiers, Dufault, et al where I can only think of Hurel and Hotman with theorbe pieces to their name (and some/all of the extant pieces attributed to the latter may be contemporary arrangements). On the contrary, instruments which we might think to be very similar (string length, tessitura) like the theorbo and the large continuo gallichon (in A), sought by Kuhnau for St Thomas's, seem to have had their own dedicated players. In short, other than some individual cases, I'm really not persuaded that there was ever historically the sort of wide and general interchangeability of instruments which we commonly try to practice nowadays. rgds MH --- On Mon, 17/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 17 May, 2010, 11:27 Thank you, Martyn. Yes, much more research is necessary! But it is good to have the questions. With this we can learn more and more but questions will never end what is a good thing. Agnolo Conti - you are right, I can't find any information that he was theorbo player despite of Tylers, he has it from Hammond (I didn't see that) - but there is at least one piece of him which is for solo mandolin (a bure in a tablature), I don't know of an opera piece... (where is it written?) Conti also wrote a sonata for mandolin and bass, in tablature Of course we don't know who has written this in tablature... Was it Conti? Maybe Sauli? Was Sauli only a mandolin player? Or did he also play theorbo as Tyler writes (from Zuth?) Hasse was married to Faustina Bordoni who played the mandolin (there is a painting) You are right about Colista. Of course I don't think that people who wrote opera parts or mandolin concertos a.s.o. must have been mandolin players... But I think as there are tablatures for mandolin it seems likely that there were at least some players who played lute/theorbo and mandolin. It was common that musicians played many different instruments. Especially if they played plucked instrument than they maybe played more than one... So they have more variation of colours... We didn't find any music for mandolin by Johann Sigismund Weiss yet but at least we know that he seems to have been playing lute, mandolin, bass viol and oboe etc... in one concert in London 1718... Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute Dmth Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Many thanks for this. It as an interesting and largely unexplored area which I think we both feel needs
[LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin
Dear Davide, Thank you for your comments! I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because we don't have much evidence. - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? It is possible to play with a quill... I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all in all we don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) where there seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture without any year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is a quill and I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this picture is played with it... I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the loudness of different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also depends on different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different concert rooms) But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the sound will maybe go easier to the listeners. But it is interesting to read about your experience! I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says that playing with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... I was just considering that there were persons who maybe played the mandolin but not the lute or the theorbo. For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, maybe. It is just a theory as all is what we try to find out. I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a diversity of things and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised what is possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the early times ; ) fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy, sound is more smooth quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, sound is more bright So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more possibilities we have, the better... Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast scales with thumb and index. But some things are easier to do with middle finger... So I think the best is maybe a combination. If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of thumb and index, did he? So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because the mandolin has other musical tasks and really less strings... ; ) I agree with you about milanese, lombardo etc. but I'm tired of talking about that... ; ) But I think the nomenclature of mandolino and mandolin is also not very helpful because it is only a question of the language... At the moment I prefer baroque mandolin and neapolitan mandolin. I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please tell me when you will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...? And please tell me how your book is developing. Kind regards and thanks! Susanne - Original Message - From: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it To: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Dear Susanne, thanks for your email and your suggestions. First of all I would say that while there is evidence that baroque mandolino was played with finger tips ( music, iconography) - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it could be played with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. My experience is just the opposite of what Edward Martin wrote and I wonder if he performed with a baroque orchestra or a modern one or if he used modern plectrums. By the way I would suggest everyboby to stop using the term mandolino LOMBARDO or MILANESE which is a modern (XIX th century) term referred to the 6 single string mandoline that developed and was played in the XIX century untill the beginning of the XX century ( played with a cherrybark plectrum). It is a very common mistake also here in Italy ( museums, exhibition catalogues, mandoline makers ect) very misleading. When I started playing the baroque mandolino, more than 20 years ago - having previously played the neapolitan with the plectrum - I thought just like you and I tried to play chamber music with a quill for some pieces which didin't require fingers for polyphonic passages, because I thought it could be louder, but then I realized it is not. I also tried to play the same piece in a concert or concert-lecture using the two different tecniques and every body ( musicians, audience, instrument makers...) noticed that if you play with fingers it is much louder and sounds better than with any plectrum plectrum. Apart form the loudness you cannot compare the quality of sound you get with finger tips. Unless you have a bad instrument you will agree, if you try.( I read you have an Hasenfuss so I suppose it is good and loud enough) The mandolino plucked with finger tips is very loud, louder
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
About lute players/theorbo players at courts: I think of
Agniolo Conti, Florence
Lelio Colista
Niccolò Ceccherini
Pietro Paolo Cappelini
Filippo Sauli and Francesco Bartolomeo Conti, Vienna
Johann Sigismund Weiss
But there where others who played other plucked instruments like guitar,
harp a.s.o. and the mandolin.
And there was the singer Faustina Bordoni.
Some amateurs like:
Marchese Guido Bentivoglio, Don Bartolomeo Ruspoli.
You can find that in Tyler.
But I'm talking about what I would call the baroque mandolin (and Tyler
calls the mandolino), which was tuned in fourths - not the neapolitan
mandolin with the fifth tuning which was often played by violin players
right.
Sorry I was not precise about tablature -staff notation. Yes, I meant: Can
we say this about the development in Italy...? Because I thought we were
only talking about Italy...
I have the Dalla Casa and the Tyler, thanks!
All the best,
Susanne
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Susanne Herre
mandolinens...@web.de
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:50 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
I'm not sure it's quite right to say that lute and theorbo players were
the ones who 'often' played mandolin because a few may be recorded.
What's the evidence for this? What named players ('court musicians') do
you have in mind? Did not violinists play the mandolin, especially the
Neapolitan wire strung instrument tuned the same?
Regarding use of staff notation for lute music: one needs to be careful
about Europe-wide generalisations since the picture seems to have been
significantly different according to instrument, location, precise
time, etc. As said, in Italy staff notation appears mostly to have
displaced tabulature for the lute in the early 18th century; other
parts generally continued to use tabulature (in particular, of course,
the German speaking states, Bohemia, Moravia, etc) tho' there are a
few sporadic attempts to use staff notation elsewhere (eg examples in
the BL 'Straube' lute book). The 'baroque' mandora/gallichon also
continued to use tablature right up to its demise (ie
slightly post-1800) but, similarly, a few extant 'mandora' MS employ
staff notation (octave transposing G2 clef) around this time. The 5
course guitar also used tablature for much of the 18th century
but generally started to employ to staff notation (again, octave
transposing G2 clef) in the later decades.
Incidentally, if you haven't seen a copy of the Dalla Casa MS you may
find it particularly useful with your interest in the mandolin of the
period since, in addition to the lute music mentioned earlier, it also
includes several pieces for 'mandola' and 'mandolino' (by Vaccari,
Fontanelli, anon) in G2 clef with BC for lute in F2 clef. A cheap but
perfectly useable facsimile is published by SPES (Archivum Musicum
series No 62).
I presume you have ' The Early Mandolin' by Tyler and Sparks which
addresses some of the areas you're asking about. Tho' some of their
observations (eg those on the 'Large Mandola' and the 18th century
'Mandora'), need to be taken with a pinch of salt it's still probably
the best single volume summary of the instrument.
MH
--- On Sat, 15/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote:
From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de
Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th
century
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 15 May, 2010, 18:43
Dear Martyn,
Thank you, that is interesting indeed!
Yes, in fact I wanted to understand how the common
lutenists/theorbists played etc. because it was often them who played
the mandolin. Often we find that e.g. theorbo players of a court also
played mandolin.
It was very helpful to read the articles of Dinko Fabris and Victor
Anand Coelho in performance on lute, guitar and vihuela, Cambridge
studies.
It is interesting to know that it seems to have been common to write in
staff notation (after Zamboni). Can we say that there is a general
change from writing in tablature to writing in staff notation and in
which period of time would that be? But there is not conveyed much
music in staff notation ...?
About Vivaldi there could be a longer discussion. But that
was happening here before...
Kind regards,
Susanne
- Original Message -
From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
To: [2]Lute List ; [3]Susanne Herre
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th
century
If you mean the lute proper, rather than instruments like the mandolin,
there is no significant music in tablature after Zamboni (1718). There
are, of course, the Vivaldi pieces with 'liuto' in staff notation which
seem
[LUTE] Re: Ricci - guitar print
Dear Arto, I don't know if you mean myself with this statement but as you may have read I'm doing some research about baroque mandolin. I'm really not well informed about the baroque guitar although I think it is a really nice instrument because of this special re-entrant tuning. Anyway I now understand that Ricci seems to have used the system of Foscarini and that the bass line seems to be in F4 clef. I'm just wondering while there is also a G clef behind the F clef. All the best, Susanne - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Cc: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ricci - guitar print Is it really possible that someone is researching the history of guitar music without knowing the principles of the alphabeto system? Just a poor lutenist wondering the strange world... ;-) Best, Arto On Fri, 14 May 2010 22:44:47 +0200, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: Thank you so much, Stuart! It is great to see this music. It sounds nice : ) Yes, strange about the accompaniment... By the way, which clef was actually intended for the chitarra: F or G? I don't know which chords are intended. Maybe he gives the explanations somewhere else in his book or does he adopt the symbols from some other guitar book? THANK YOU! Susanne - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Ricci - guitar print Monica Hall wrote: The British Library have a copy of it and the Lute Society of America have a microfilm of it. It hasn't been published in facsimile. It includes 2 Belletti for mandola - a single melodic line in treble clef. Monica Here they are: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/MandolaRicci/ Stuart - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Ricci - guitar print Hi all, Does anyone know where to get Giovanni Pietro Ricci - Scuola d'intavolatura (for the Chitarriglia Spagnuola)? On page 49 there is: SONATE NUOVE DI MANDOLA, CON UNA GHIRLANDA DI VARIE VILLANELLE RACCOLTE, Accompagnate con le Lettere DELLA CHITARRA. I only found this: [1]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.ht ml But I would like to see the music for the mandola. Kind regards, Susanne -- References 1. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
expand the range of scale lengths a little on either end. Be certain to look up the Tyler and Sparks text and perhaps the earlier article by Tyler. Be warned that nomenclature of baroque-era mandolin kin was a bit of a mess, and some repertoire claimed for mandolins in some recent literature might be based upon name alone. ..And enjoy! Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3] mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:45 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Dear Lute Wisdom, It would be great if you could help me. I'm doing some research on the baroque mandolin. I would like to know which italian baroque music for lute instruments do we have from the first half of the 18th century? Which composers are represented? Which kinds of instruments are preferred? What is known about playing technique? More thumb-in or thumb-out? Two-voice-chords- how will they be played? How high is the thumb going? Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [5]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Representing: FROM WALES - Crasdant Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe Jez Lowe The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths Morrongiello Young Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [6]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30154097l=8ef3a743a3id=1044223851 2. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26768.html 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 6. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Dear Martyn, Thank you, that is interesting indeed! Yes, in fact I wanted to understand how the common lutenists/theorbists played etc. because it was often them who played the mandolin. Often we find that e.g. theorbo players of a court also played mandolin. It was very helpful to read the articles of Dinko Fabris and Victor Anand Coelho in performance on lute, guitar and vihuela, Cambridge studies. It is interesting to know that it seems to have been common to write in staff notation (after Zamboni). Can we say that there is a general change from writing in tablature to writing in staff notation and in which period of time would that be? But there is not conveyed much music in staff notation ...? About Vivaldi there could be a longer discussion. But that was happening here before... Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Lute List ; [3]Susanne Herre Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century If you mean the lute proper, rather than instruments like the mandolin, there is no significant music in tablature after Zamboni (1718). There are, of course, the Vivaldi pieces with 'liuto' in staff notation which seem to require the old G (or A) lute which, as outlined below, seems to have persisted in Italy throughout the 18th century. There are also a few other known MS sources and I've copies of various chamber works from the 1720s, also in staff notation (octave transposing G2 treble clef with F4 bass clef for occassional BC passages). These include anonymous works like a 'Concertino per Cammera/con Arciliuto obligato/ violoni e Basso' which Bob Spencer kindly and with typical fine generosity copied for me (and I've no doubt others) from his superb collection (now in the RAM and - alas -with problems of access/copying). An extract from the work can be seen in Bob's important paper in Early Music October 1976 p.418. In a slightly later period than that in which you expressed an interest (ie first half of the 18th century), the Dall Casa MS (and other similar contemporary MSs) from the mid-century also eschews tablature and shows what Italian lutenists played at that time: staff notation (octave transposing G2 clef ), not tablature, which significantly opens up the range of possibilities to include violin music and the like. There are also contemporary Italian paintings from this period showing simple 6, 7 and 8 course lutes being played often in domestic circumstances and, indeed, we even have extant examples of such 18th century Italian lutes such as the instrument by Guiseppe Radice (Milan 1775). Much work still needs to be done in this area on things like tuning but, because of the modest size of these instruments and depictions, I've speculated that the old rennaissance tuning in a nominal G (as also specified by Dalla Casa) continued throught the century. Tyler suggests that the mandora tuning (ie 19th century guitar-like in nominal E or D) was used but I think this unlikely in view of the sizes and other evidence. Regarding technique, I know of of nothing in the early 18th century to suggest significant changes to lute technique around this time from that used earlier in Italy . However, slightly later, Dalla Casa advocates nails (at least on his thumb) though wether he was exceptional is not known. Much work still to be done.. MH --- On Thu, 13/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 13 May, 2010, 11:45 Dear Lute Wisdom, It would be great if you could help me. I'm doing some research on the baroque mandolin. I would like to know which italian baroque music for lute instruments do we have from the first half of the 18th century? Which composers are represented? Which kinds of instruments are preferred? What is known about playing technique? More thumb-in or thumb-out? Two-voice-chords- how will they be played? How high is the thumb going? Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Dear Davide, Thanks! About the use of the quill: I think we can't be sure if they didn't use it before the neapolitan mandolin became popular. The lute in middle ages was also played with a quill as well as the mandore in the renaissance. The quill could have been very useful in chamber music and opera. I don't think that ALL mandolin players where also lute and theorbo players. There were also amateurs who maybe not played the lute or theorbo. Or maybe professionel people who just played mandolin, or, or... And as there is no evidence we can't generally say that the playing technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could also have been middle plus index or a mixture... Don't you think? Best wishes, Susanne - Original Message - From: davide.rebuffa davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it To: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Dear Susanne the baroque mandolino ( 4, 5, 6 course) was played with finger tips at least untill the middle of the XVIII century: Afterwards, as the roman and neapolitan mandolines became popular, they started playing the six course tuned in fourths also with the plectrum, Always thumb out like the baroque lute because all the mandolino palyers were acyuaslly lute and theorbo players. Thum and index alternated for fast notes, arpeggios and 2 or 3 notes chords with thumb out. In case you are interested I have a class of baroque mandolino in Vicenza, Italy, which is the only one in Italy and one of the very few in Europe. I hope this may help, Best regards, Davide - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Dear Lute Wisdom, It would be great if you could help me. I'm doing some research on the baroque mandolin. I would like to know which italian baroque music for lute instruments do we have from the first half of the 18th century? Which composers are represented? Which kinds of instruments are preferred? What is known about playing technique? More thumb-in or thumb-out? Two-voice-chords- how will they be played? How high is the thumb going? Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Piccinini-thumb-index
Piccinini Cap. X Per far questi Gruppi, e tirate col Police Indice come ordinariamente s'usa, si deve tenere il Police molto in fuori e l'indice molto sotto, come una croce... Do I understand right that he doesn't mean thumb-in here but thumb-out...? The thumb should be outward and the index below it...? Sorry for many questions... Kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Thank you very much for your comments and links, Eugene! I will answer you soon. Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Susanne Herre' mandolinens...@web.de; 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:24 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Almost nothing is documented on playing technique of 4th-tuned mandolin/o other than iconography, and techniques so portrayed can pretty diverse looking. One of the clearest and most performance-ready painting from the mid 1700s is Longhi's Little concert. It shows a pair of ladies playing 5-course instruments thumb-out with the right hand in a very guitar-like position. That stance is not uncommon to iconography and that's ordinarily how I approach mine. Unlike modern guitar technique, I take fast scalar passages mostly alternating p and i, even on treble-most courses. Here is some very recent iconography (i.e., me): http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30154097l=8ef3a743a3id=1044223851 In general, it seems an appropriate assumption that punteado techniques probably held sway into the mid 18th c. and plectrum techniques probably came to dominate from the mid 18th c. Written documentation on technique doesn't really appear until gut-strung, 4th-tuned mandolins receive peripheral mention in the Parisian method books published beginning in the 1760s specifically for Neapolitan-type, wire-strung, 5th-tuned mandolins. In writing on plectrum techniques appropriate to wire-strung Neapolitan mandolins, those authors simply applied similar to the older gut-strung, 4th-tuned types. Most of the rest I would type in reply and more, I already typed in December 2008. Click here if curious: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26768.html From that rant, I would probably expand the range of scale lengths a little on either end. Be certain to look up the Tyler and Sparks text and perhaps the earlier article by Tyler. Be warned that nomenclature of baroque-era mandolin kin was a bit of a mess, and some repertoire claimed for mandolins in some recent literature might be based upon name alone. ...And enjoy! Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Susanne Herre Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:45 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century Dear Lute Wisdom, It would be great if you could help me. I'm doing some research on the baroque mandolin. I would like to know which italian baroque music for lute instruments do we have from the first half of the 18th century? Which composers are represented? Which kinds of instruments are preferred? What is known about playing technique? More thumb-in or thumb-out? Two-voice-chords- how will they be played? How high is the thumb going? Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Thank you also, Martyn! I will answer you soon as well. Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 11:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century If you mean the lute proper, rather than instruments like the mandolin, there is no significant music in tablature after Zamboni (1718). There are, of course, the Vivaldi pieces with 'liuto' in staff notation which seem to require the old G (or A) lute which, as outlined below, seems to have persisted in Italy throughout the 18th century. There are also a few other known MS sources and I've copies of various chamber works from the 1720s, also in staff notation (octave transposing G2 treble clef with F4 bass clef for occassional BC passages). These include anonymous works like a 'Concertino per Cammera/con Arciliuto obligato/ violoni e Basso' which Bob Spencer kindly and with typical fine generosity copied for me (and I've no doubt others) from his superb collection (now in the RAM and - alas -with problems of access/copying). An extract from the work can be seen in Bob's important paper in Early Music October 1976 p.418. In a slightly later period than that in which you expressed an interest (ie first half of the 18th century), the Dall Casa MS (and other similar contemporary MSs) from the mid-century also eschews tablature and shows what Italian lutenists played at that time: staff notation (octave transposing G2 clef ), not tablature, which significantly opens up the range of possibilities to include violin music and the like. There are also contemporary Italian paintings from this period showing simple 6, 7 and 8 course lutes being played often in domestic circumstances and, indeed, we even have extant examples of such 18th century Italian lutes such as the instrument by Guiseppe Radice (Milan 1775). Much work still needs to be done in this area on things like tuning but, because of the modest size of these instruments and depictions, I've speculated that the old rennaissance tuning in a nominal G (as also specified by Dalla Casa) continued throught the century. Tyler suggests that the mandora tuning (ie 19th century guitar-like in nominal E or D) was used but I think this unlikely in view of the sizes and other evidence. Regarding technique, I know of of nothing in the early 18th century to suggest significant changes to lute technique around this time from that used earlier in Italy . However, slightly later, Dalla Casa advocates nails (at least on his thumb) though wether he was exceptional is not known. Much work still to be done.. MH --- On Thu, 13/5/10, Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de wrote: From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 13 May, 2010, 11:45 Dear Lute Wisdom, It would be great if you could help me. I'm doing some research on the baroque mandolin. I would like to know which italian baroque music for lute instruments do we have from the first half of the 18th century? Which composers are represented? Which kinds of instruments are preferred? What is known about playing technique? More thumb-in or thumb-out? Two-voice-chords- how will they be played? How high is the thumb going? Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ricci - guitar print
Hi all, Does anyone know where to get Giovanni Pietro Ricci - Scuola d'intavolatura (for the Chitarriglia Spagnuola)? On page 49 there is: SONATE NUOVE DI MANDOLA, CON UNA GHIRLANDA DI VARIE VILLANELLE RACCOLTE, Accompagnate con le Lettere DELLA CHITARRA. I only found this: [1]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.ht ml But I would like to see the music for the mandola. Kind regards, Susanne -- References 1. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] mandore - brussels manuscript
To all mandore/mandora/gallichon etc... experts: Does anyone know if this manuscript: Recueil de pieces pour la mandore, en tablature franc,aise XVIIIe siecle. [Brussels, Bibl. Conservatoire Royal, mus. ms. 5619]. contains music for the little mandore of the 17th century or for the bigger Mandora /Gallichon of the 18th century? I guess the latter one was meant but I didn't see the manuscript or the facsimile. Kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ricci - guitar print
Thank you! This single melodic line, does it have signs for how to play the line (dots, slurs, symbols for ornamentation, etc..)? Susanne - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Ricci - guitar print The British Library have a copy of it and the Lute Society of America have a microfilm of it. It hasn't been published in facsimile. It includes 2 Belletti for mandola - a single melodic line in treble clef. Monica - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Ricci - guitar print Hi all, Does anyone know where to get Giovanni Pietro Ricci - Scuola d'intavolatura (for the Chitarriglia Spagnuola)? On page 49 there is: SONATE NUOVE DI MANDOLA, CON UNA GHIRLANDA DI VARIE VILLANELLE RACCOLTE, Accompagnate con le Lettere DELLA CHITARRA. I only found this: [1]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.ht ml But I would like to see the music for the mandola. Kind regards, Susanne -- References 1. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ricci - guitar print
Thank you so much, Stuart! It is great to see this music. It sounds nice : ) Yes, strange about the accompaniment... By the way, which clef was actually intended for the chitarra: F or G? I don't know which chords are intended. Maybe he gives the explanations somewhere else in his book or does he adopt the symbols from some other guitar book? THANK YOU! Susanne - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Ricci - guitar print Monica Hall wrote: The British Library have a copy of it and the Lute Society of America have a microfilm of it. It hasn't been published in facsimile. It includes 2 Belletti for mandola - a single melodic line in treble clef. Monica Here they are: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/MandolaRicci/ Stuart - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Ricci - guitar print Hi all, Does anyone know where to get Giovanni Pietro Ricci - Scuola d'intavolatura (for the Chitarriglia Spagnuola)? On page 49 there is: SONATE NUOVE DI MANDOLA, CON UNA GHIRLANDA DI VARIE VILLANELLE RACCOLTE, Accompagnate con le Lettere DELLA CHITARRA. I only found this: [1]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.ht ml But I would like to see the music for the mandola. Kind regards, Susanne -- References 1. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/music/guitar/1677ricci.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy 18th century
Dear Lute Wisdom, It would be great if you could help me. I'm doing some research on the baroque mandolin. I would like to know which italian baroque music for lute instruments do we have from the first half of the 18th century? Which composers are represented? Which kinds of instruments are preferred? What is known about playing technique? More thumb-in or thumb-out? Two-voice-chords- how will they be played? How high is the thumb going? Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] guitar chanterelle - string material
Dear lute and guitar friends, I'm really sorry to ask my question maybe on the wrong list. Does anyone know what is written in guitar treatises around 1750 to 1780 or maybe earlier which material was used for the chanterelle? Was it gut? Thank you for any help! Kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Closure of VA Instrument Gallery
Here is the petition! [1]http://www.PetitionOnline.com/22210/petition.html Please sign! Kind regards, Susanne Ketil Haugsand wrote on facebook: Dear friends of Bach, the harpsichord, antique historically significant musical instruments - and me - I really don't want to spam you here on FB (or any other place, for that matter!) - but my message today is serious enough and I hope you lend me an ear and act accordingly! Closing the Instrument Collection of the WA could result in a stow-away of priceless antique musical instruments in a miserable and degrading manner - and make the serious musical world - and Early Music in particular - bereft of exceedingly important organologic documentation! Some of these instruments are of the most unique specimens of their type - and robbing the public - and, possibly, professional access to these is downright a State Crime! Alas - the attitude that allows decision-taking like this tells a lot about the ignorance and priority in an unmusical and partly uncultivated mind of the decision-makers! This should indeed not be allowed - and must be reversed, in order to prevent lasting damage and loss of objects we cannot afford to loose! Therefore - PLEASE - SIGN THIS VERY IMPORTANT PETION!!! CLICK HERE: [2]http://www.PetitionOnline.com/22210/petition.html With sincerest regards - yours Ketil Haugsand -- References 1. http://www.PetitionOnline.com/22210/petition.html 2. http://www.PetitionOnline.com/22210/petition.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Wilbye - Fantasia a 6
Dear lute wisdom, Does anybody know where to find the facsimile of John Wilbye - Fantasia a 6? The original is in the Marsh Library, Dublin, but I can't even find it in their catalogue... Any help very welcome! Kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wilbye - Fantasia a 6
Thank you so much!! - Original Message - From: Matteo Turri matteo.o.tu...@googlemail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wilbye - Fantasia a 6 Musica Britannica Vol. 9, No. 84. In general, for questions like this, the reference is the the Thematic Index of the VdGS, here: [1]http://www.vdgs.org.uk/publications-ThematicIndex.html freely downloadable. M. 2009/5/11 Susanne Herre [2]mandolinens...@web.de Dear lute wisdom, Does anybody know where to find the facsimile of John Wilbye - Fantasia a 6? The original is in the Marsh Library, Dublin, but I can't even find it in their catalogue... Any help very welcome! Kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.vdgs.org.uk/publications-ThematicIndex.html 2. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vallet - thumb or middle finger?
Very interesting! Thank you, Andreas and Sean! Susanne - Original Message - From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vallet - thumb or middle finger? It's a notation to use the middle finger. The [ ] is the cipher used to signify two dots. NV was surrounded by 9 and 10 -course lutes by that time and many (most?) players would have been using thumb-out for the larger bridged lutes. The 10-c doesn't make the thumb-under of older players at the time impossible but the next generation were certainly leaning towards thumb-out. Sean On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:32 AM, Susanne Herre wrote: Dear Lutenists, I just played Vallet. He uses this sign II very often. I'm wondering if it means to play with the thumb or the middle finger. Is there already a change in playing technique on the 10 course-lute (running passages perhaps to be played as alternation of middle finger and index finger) or is it still the way you would play a lute with six or seven courses (alternation of thumb and index finger)? I'm just wondering because I can't see the reason why he should still write which finger the player should use if this is the way the lutenists already played more than 100 years before Vallets pieces. A great year 2009 for everyone! Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lutemusic/Early Music in Missoula, Spokane, SEATTLE
Dear Lutelovers, At the moment I have the luck to be in the US for some weeks. On Wednesday, 13th of August, I will arrive in Missoula, on Thursday in Spokane and on Friday to Sunday I will be in Seattle. Does anyone know about a concert with lute music, viola da gamba music, mandolin music or any kind of early music in these days and on these places? Or does anyone have a recommendation for a nice store to buy lute music/early music CDs or sheet music for not too much money? Many thanks for any help. Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recercare
That's a good word, thank you very much! S - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 12:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Recercare Dear lutelist, I committed the mistake of replying to one of Igors's belligerent commentaries some days ago. He obiosly is trying (very uncunningly) to stir some negative emotions among us. Let us not follow his stupid game that has nothing to do with our mutual love for music and our beautiful instrument. I propose to just ignore him until he is able to behave himself. Best wishes to ALL of you, Alfonso On Apr 2, 2008, at 12:18 AM, igor . wrote: btw matthias, i have read a copule of your silly writings judging the others... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal
@ Jeff Thanks very much for the hint! But on this website you cannot look at the pictures itself, that's the most interesting! @ G. Crona I like very much the idea of the wikipedia-version! Kind regards, Susanne - Original Message - From: jjnoonan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Susanne Herre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal Before you get too far on this, you might want to consult Mary Rasumssen's iconography web site which has a section devoted to the lute. http://www.unh.edu/music/igref.htm jeff - Original Message - From: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Susanne Herre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 7:59 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal Good idea Susanne! It would be most convenient to have a site where as much as possible of the iconography could be found. Well catalogisized and in both tumbnails and bigger versions. A sort of mini Wikipedia like, where we could go in and add information if available. I believe Alfonso reads the list, perhaps he has some ideas of how to go about to do this? B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:25 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lute iconographic project - a proposal Dear all, I liked very much the website of Alfonso Marin about the Lute iconography. Thank you very much for this work! Woulnd't it be good if this could get a more official character und could be enlarged by the help of us all (I guess nearly every body has digital photographs of lute angels, pictures, instruments in museums a.s.o. which would be interesting for everyone and which we could send to Alfonso Marin)? Then it would be helpful if the pictures could be organized in groups, e.g. 1) paintings, several periods of time 2) sculptures 3) instruments in museums (different types a.s.o.) The information could also be added by everyone. I think the medium Internet is really good to combine information, to share with many people. It could be a really good basis for research. What do you think about this idea? All the best, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules
Dear Alfonso, Absolutely, thanks very much for this comment! - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:48 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules The majority of people cannot differentiate between a good singer (and lutenist) singing Dowland and Sting. That is no excuse not to strive to make our best as musicians and try to render the music as good as we can. I give you a personal example. I have a lute-voice duo with a soprano since many years. We do all kinds of lutesongs in different languages among them English. Although we have performed in England, we mainly perform in non english speaking countries like France, The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Germany. Her English accent is much better than the average person in these countries. They can understand her perfectly and yet, she has been taking English pronunciation lessons with a Shakespearean actor-singer. We don't care if the audience think is good enough or don't realize her Argentinean accent. We have the urge to make that music that fascinate us in such a profound way in the best possible way available to us. That implies hard work, but, is there anything worth in this life that does not require effort? Art certainly does. Alfonso On 29-jul-2007, at 18:04, Howard Posner wrote: On Sunday, Jul 29, 2007, at 04:05 America/Los_Angeles, Daniel Shoskes wrote: while your fellow performers may notice errors in realization, I am sure that 90%+ of the audience won't! Indeed, they likely won't notice anything you do. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Dalza - Calata ala Spagnola
Dear all, At the moment I'm playing the piece Calata ala Spagnola by Dalza. I searched for information about the special sort of dance Calata but didn't find anything. Is there anybody who knows which characteristics this dance type has? I'm also a little confused about the form of the piece - it begins with 10 bars and continues in sections of 8 bars. Would be grateful for any information about this piece, kind regards, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
