Roman, I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste of time. JL
Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01: > a geetar then. > Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have > been item Y" > may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute > Suites". > RT > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> > To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > >> but in this case a spade is not a spade :) >> JL >> >> >> Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32: >> >>> Yes, >>> but - >>> sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, >>> and just call a spade a spade. >>> RT >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>> To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>> >>> >>>> Eugene, >>>> >>>> Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music >>>> specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm >>>> wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, >>>> doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them >>>> publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend >>>> David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with >>>> all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many >>>> question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. >>>> However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if >>>> we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in >>>> past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge >>>> someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people >>>> decide what they can make of it, IMHO. >>>> My 2 cents >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Jaroslaw >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: >>>> >>>>> I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little >>>>> article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think >>>>> it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. >>>>> >>>>> Eugene >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of >>>>> Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM >>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>>> >>>>> Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes >>>>> very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not >>>>> write any music specifically intended for solo lute >>>>> - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down >>>>> I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need >>>>> more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. >>>>> Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on >>>>> lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available >>>>> scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for >>>>> this was to stir a discussion. >>>>> >>>>> jl >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o >>>>> godz. 20:02: >>>>> >>>>>>> ... It's obviously a bit of >>>>>>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >>>>>>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>>>>>> literature ever will. > Eugene >>>>>> I agree. >>>>>> The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting >>>>>> from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 >>>>>> years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of >>>>>> the >>>>>> music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose >>>>>> upturned?) >>>>>> will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good >>>>>> thing, >>>>>> bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. >>>>>> Something >>>>>> I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, >>>>>> keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece >>>>>> was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is >>>>>> true for violin, etc. >>>>>> "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the >>>>>> more >>>>>> people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent >>>>>> info that >>>>>> this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? >>>>>> Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. >>>>>> And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is >>>>>> going >>>>>> to be good for lutes and lutenists. >>>>>> I'll look forward to future responses. >>>>>> Tom >>>>>>> However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary >>>>>>> source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of >>>>>>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >>>>>>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>>>>>> literature ever will. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Eugene >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: >>>>>>> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute >>>>>>> Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real >>>>>>> contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, >>>>>>> no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, >>>>>>> Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stephan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> still clinging to illusions >>>>>>>> of lute. It's tough letting go. >>>>>>>> But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new >>>>>>>>> here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the >>>>>>>>> sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he >>>>>>>>> drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He >>>>>>>>> also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul >>>>>>>>> O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something >>>>>>>>> like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I suspect >>>>>>>>> that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach >>>>>>>>> knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to >>>>>>>>> some reference of the source material either really, really wants >>>>>>>>> to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern >>>>>>>>> classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived >>>>>>>>> ancestor of his/her own instrument. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Eugene >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] >>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, >>>>>>>>> 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject: >>>>>>>>> [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an >>>>>>>>> arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very >>>>>>>>> nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! >>>>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: >>>>>>> http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom Draughon >>>>>> Heartistry Music >>>>>> http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html >>>>>> 714 9th Avenue West >>>>>> Ashland, WI 54806 >>>>>> 715-682-9362 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >
