[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Edward Martin]

Yes, this is how it appears to be.  In examining the top, it showed all 
signs of nail usage.  I have never, ever encountered evidence to show that 
some sort of finger pick was used for the baroque lute.  Nails were used by 
some, and nails are what made these marks.

Keep in mind, that in this day and age, we tend to have the tops "dished", 
or "scooped" a bit, so the strings are not quite so close to the belly; 
Edlinger did not scoop either one of these baroque lutes, and the action 
was quite close, for the right hand.  Hence, the finger _and_ nail marks 
from the various players of this great lute.



ed

At 10:33 PM 2/8/2008 +0100, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros=B3aw_Lipski?= wrote:
>So, to sum up my guess is Edlinger was scratched  by somebody playing with
>his natural finger nails. It would be interesting to find out when it had
>took place in past, but probably such an investigation would be very
>difficult and expensive.
>
>Jaroslaw



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,
>From the detail David send us(the big close up) I could say Pellegrini had
very long nails on all fingers. They don't look like artificial ones unless
they had Superglue at that time (which is rather improbable :-))
This could explain scratches in a simplest possible way. Have you
encountered any mention of the artificial finger nails in any literature
from XVII or XVIII c?  
On the other hand it was not impossible to make such a gadget at that time
and can not be out ruled. I tried to play single strung theorbo in the big
orchestra with short nails and it seems to work because nobody can hear it's
tone color anyway but the projection is definitely better - some similarity
to harpsichord. The old ones must have noticed this correlation since some
mention "those that use finger nails", however in the smaller ensemble this
technique doesn't seem to work so well. Besides it's much more money
consuming because you have to change guts more frequently (nails spoil gut
no matter how polished). Anyway I abandoned this technique for ever because
for me it's just better to play the proper size theorbo, but the old ones
were evidently seeking the new ways of coping with the same problems that we
encounter, thus the evidence of using finger nails.
So, to sum up my guess is Edlinger was scratched  by somebody playing with
his natural finger nails. It would be interesting to find out when it had
took place in past, but probably such an investigation would be very
difficult and expensive.

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:21 PM
To: David Van Edwards; David Tayler; LGS-Europe; Edward Martin; Jarosław
Lipski
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

Dear All
Thanks to David Van Edwards, I think I found the picture mentioned  
by Rob.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg20273.html

I am not sure of the significance for our question here. Although if  
these are artificial nails, it would not be impossible, that  
something similar made the marks on the Edlinger.
However, Jaroslaw, has told us that even  (medium length) finger  
nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks, can make such an effect.
Original
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg
Detail
http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

This appears to be the detailed image, that comes from David Tayler


[LUTE] Re: ughpellergini again #3

David Tayler
Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:05:34 -0700

I've posted a detail here, it is surprising from the angle of the
light that the first fingernail would be black, but that may be  
possible.

http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

There are heavy shadows on all the elements, so the finger would have
to have a shadow, as do the other fingers.

No nail on the thumb though, perhaps the better scan will reveal all.

Very interesting picture, thanks to Rich for showing it.


http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:27:18 -0700

That is an interesting picture.
No nails on the thumb and first finger, but nails on the other ones.
The dark spot under first finger is the shadow, in contrast to the  
light nails.

May have trimmed the thumb & first finger and played with two  
fingers, as I do,
but those other fingers look pretty serious.
A strong argument for a two fingered, chordal technique without nails,
or a three fingered technique with the nails, but you can't use your
thumb and first finger.
Knowing nothing, I vote for the former.
dt

btw, if you take out the junk DNA the link looks
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg

Anthony


Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 17:28, David Van Edwards a ecrit :

> Dear All,
>
> About a year ago there was some discussion of an engraving of an  
> early guitarist/composer which seemed to show he had a nail on at  
> least one finger. I put up the picture and said that I thought I  
> could see indications of another nail and surmised that both from  
> their appearance.might have been artificial. At the time I had a  
> passing interest and was trying to help the discussion. I seem to  
> have taken down the picture, at least I can't find it either, and  
> have also deleted it from my computer and the details from my  
> memory! This was because it was a guitarist not a theorbo player  
> and, narrow-mindedly(!) I'm not very concerned with guitar matters.
>
> So I'm sorry not to be able to help further, I suggest looking in  
> the archive of the lute net.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
> At 17:01 +0100 8/2/08, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> Jaroslaw
>> Well that could be the explanation then, medium length  
>> nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low  
>> tesnion strings. Although R

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Dear All
Thanks to David Van Edwards, I think I found the picture mentioned  
by Rob.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg20273.html

I am not sure of the significance for our question here. Although if  
these are artificial nails, it would not be impossible, that  
something similar made the marks on the Edlinger.
However, Jaroslaw, has told us that even  (medium length) finger  
nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks, can make such an effect.
Original
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg
Detail
http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

This appears to be the detailed image, that comes from David Tayler


[LUTE] Re: ughpellergini again #3

David Tayler
Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:05:34 -0700

I've posted a detail here, it is surprising from the angle of the
light that the first fingernail would be black, but that may be  
possible.

http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

There are heavy shadows on all the elements, so the finger would have
to have a shadow, as do the other fingers.

No nail on the thumb though, perhaps the better scan will reveal all.

Very interesting picture, thanks to Rich for showing it.


http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:27:18 -0700

That is an interesting picture.
No nails on the thumb and first finger, but nails on the other ones.
The dark spot under first finger is the shadow, in contrast to the  
light nails.

May have trimmed the thumb & first finger and played with two  
fingers, as I do,
but those other fingers look pretty serious.
A strong argument for a two fingered, chordal technique without nails,
or a three fingered technique with the nails, but you can't use your
thumb and first finger.
Knowing nothing, I vote for the former.
dt

btw, if you take out the junk DNA the link looks
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg

Anthony


Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 17:28, David Van Edwards a ecrit :

> Dear All,
>
> About a year ago there was some discussion of an engraving of an  
> early guitarist/composer which seemed to show he had a nail on at  
> least one finger. I put up the picture and said that I thought I  
> could see indications of another nail and surmised that both from  
> their appearance.might have been artificial. At the time I had a  
> passing interest and was trying to help the discussion. I seem to  
> have taken down the picture, at least I can't find it either, and  
> have also deleted it from my computer and the details from my  
> memory! This was because it was a guitarist not a theorbo player  
> and, narrow-mindedly(!) I'm not very concerned with guitar matters.
>
> So I'm sorry not to be able to help further, I suggest looking in  
> the archive of the lute net.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
> At 17:01 +0100 8/2/08, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> Jaroslaw
>> Well that could be the explanation then, medium length  
>> nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low  
>> tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van  
>> Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a  thumb or  
>> finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail  
>> about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific  
>> to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning  
>> some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a  
>> very long shot, I fear.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
>>>> "theorbo"
>>>> tuning mentioned by Baron?
>>>> Are Vidar Boye Hansen
>> Anthony
>>
>> Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 14:02, Jaros1/2aw Lipski a ecrit :
>>> Anthony,
>>> Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from  
>>> guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal  
>>> (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks).  
>>> The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered  
>>> with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand.  
>>> I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood  
>>> with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood  
>>> of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish,  
>>> the low tension and rather low string action in the place where  
>>> the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my  
>>> instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared  
>>> mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under  
>>> the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb  
>>> nail and the 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Martyn Hodgson]

Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this

  MH
  
Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Jaroslaw
Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and 
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. 
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is 
mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing 
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure 
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an 
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these 
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.
>
>> Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
>> "theorbo"
>> tuning mentioned by Baron?
>> Are Vidar Boye Hansen
>>
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :

> Anthony,
> Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from 
> guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium 
> length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The 
> result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with 
> small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was 
> very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my 
> fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the 
> fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low 
> tension and rather low string action in the place where the right 
> hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in 
> a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the 
> places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This 
> however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact 
> that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)
> Best wishes
>
> Jaroslaw
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
> To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - 
> another thought
>
> Ed
> I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
> through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
> similar marks?
> Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
> extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
> Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
> sharktoothpickproducts.html
> They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
> construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
> Anthony
>
> Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :
>
>> No trouble at all, Martyn.
>>
>> Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
>> lute, as
>> I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
>> the
>> rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
>> position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks
>> would be
>> mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
>> course, down
>> to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
>> position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
>> accordingly. So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
>> rose, but
>> marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
>> pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly.
>>
>> The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
>> not from a
>> strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
>> also asked
>> the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
>> lutenist
>> would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
>> playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is
>> amazing.
>>
>> The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to 
>> the
>> pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
>> long
>> time". The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
>> baroque
>> lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a
>> musician playing close to the bridge.
>>
>> ed
>>
>> At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>> Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
>>> played in
>>> its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
>>> dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 
>>> 13th
>>> courses would run?
>>>
>&g

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Jaroslaw
	Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and  
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings.  
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is  
mention (or a painting) of a  thumb or finger attachment for playing  
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure  
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an  
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these  
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.



Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
"theorbo"
tuning mentioned by Baron?
Are Vidar Boye Hansen


Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :


Anthony,
Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from  
guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium  
length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The  
result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with  
small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was  
very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my  
fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the  
fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low  
tension and rather low string action in the place where the right  
hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in  
a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the  
places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This  
however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact  
that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota -  
another thought


Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
sharktoothpickproducts.html

They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to  
the

pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to  
13th

courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
<http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in 

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,
Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute 
playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails 
(influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the 
fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my 
right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood 
with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the 
fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and 
rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, 
made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The 
marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under 
the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the 
fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)
Best wishes

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking  
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving  
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of  
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to  
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :

> No trouble at all, Martyn.
>
> Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course  
> lute, as
> I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near  
> the
> rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
> position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks  
> would be
> mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th  
> course, down
> to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
> position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
> accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the  
> rose, but
> marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
> pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.
>
> The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and  
> not from a
> strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have  
> also asked
> the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque  
> lutenist
> would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
> playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is  
> amazing.
>
> The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
> pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very  
> long
> time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different  
> baroque
> lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
> musician playing close to the bridge.
>
> ed
>
> At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>> Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was  
>> played in
>> its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
>> dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
>> courses would run?
>>
>> Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might  
>> still
>> have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.  
>> You'll
>> know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
>> relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,  
>> Padovetz,
>> Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more  
>> courses
>> were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums  
>> playing
>> a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
>> <http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.
>>
>> MH
>>
>> Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from  
>> playing
>> a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were  
>> in the
>> castle attic for "a very long time".
>>
>> ed
>>
>>
>>
>> At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>> Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
>>> movement started in the last decade of the 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Edward Martin]

God question, Anthony.  In absence of any evidence anywhere of making 
"thumb picks" for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done.


ed



At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in the
castle attic for "a very long time".

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before
1907),
perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a
"Heckel" looked
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son
of the
house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of
Music, in

South

Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by
Stradivarius, Ganeri,
Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the l

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Martyn Hodgson]

 
  I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is 
why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist!  In 1890, say, not so much 
respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and 
antiquarian circles.
   
  OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes 
and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that 
an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been 
so brutal.
   
  Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle 
attic
   
  Martyn
   
  Martyn

Rob Lute <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at
least.

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   
-
 Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.
--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Once again, I doubt it very much.  The marks are clearly made from playing 
a 13 course lute.  And, it is documented that the instruments were in the 
castle attic for "a very long time".

ed


At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>Thanks for this.  Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the 
>movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), 
>perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?
>
>MH
>
>Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in
>storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a "Heckel" looked
>at them, and put back into storage in the castle..
>
>ed
>
>.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> > Thank you for this.
> >
> >Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound
> >a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have
> >been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I
> >realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not
> >have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the
> >house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
> >attic..
> >
> >MH
> >
> >
> >Edward Martin wrote:
> >Dear ones,
> >
> >I have an interesting story.
> >
> >Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South
> >Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many
> >lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars
> >by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri,
> >Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.
> >
> >The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for
> >about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They
> >have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm
> >mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
> >Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted
> >to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in
> >1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's
> >eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
> >
> >What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these
> >lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me
> >that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so
> >it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played
> >near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as
> >the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One
> >player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
> >multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long
> >right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the
> >neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
> >instrument, there were more than one player using very different
> >techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed
> >towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge.
> >
> >The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very
> >close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was
> >worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.
> >
> >It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the
> >same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13
> >course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had
> >dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the
> >sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2
> >instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players.
> >
> >All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so
> >close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on
> >the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very
> >open & obvious to the naked eye.
> >
> >ed
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Edward Martin
> >2817 East 2nd Street
> >Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> >e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >voice: (218) 728-1202
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >Sent from
> >Yahoo!
> >- a smarter inbox.
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008
> >8:57 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>Edward Martin
>2817 East 2nd Street
>Duluth, Minnesota 55812
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>voice: (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
>
>
>Sent from 
>Yahoo!
> 
>- a smar

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Agreed.

ed

At 08:20 AM 2/7/2008 +0100, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

If we take a breaking point at 260 Hz/m (Mimmo wrote from strings
like that), and a a'=392 Hz (and so the the f' is 311 Hz) we are
between the normal breaking point at 321 Hz and the normal stress
point (breaking point minus one semitone) at 303 Hz.
The four known German theorboes have string length of 85.5 cm
(Leipzig 3357 Venere/Schelle), 88 cm (Nürnberg MI 574 Schelle), ca.87
cm (Dresden 51642, Tesler) and 82.7 (Berlin 3581, Koch).
So the 81 cm are good for a very low tuned baroque lute or a very
small (!) German theorbo - but it's a lute with a bass rider and from
this point of view NOT a German theorbo.

Andreas

Am 07.02.2008 um 00:59 schrieb Are Vidar Boye Hansen:


Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
"theorbo"
tuning mentioned by Baron?


Are


Great question.  The answer is simple.  It would have been strung
with a
standard treble, in the usual fashion.  I have not worked out what
the top
pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at
415.  The
whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the
lowest
course would have been around F, not A.  Keep in mind, these are
13 course
baroque lutes with first & 2nd course single, then courses 12 & 13
on bass
riders.  To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top string "as
high as it
goes", and not concerning where "f" is.

ed



At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
What sort of treble string could support 81cm?
I am amazed.
Anthony


Le 6 fevr. 08 =E0 14:08, Edward Martin a ecrit :


At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface
scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but
deep.

However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.

 "One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as
there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses!"


Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a
thumb nail?


Yes.


In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers
and
thumb?



Yes, definitely, for the thumb.


It almost sounds as though the player might have had something
attached to his fingers
(like some blues players do).


I doubt that but who knows?



You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are
speaking
of the total length.
Do you have any idea of the actual string length?


Those ARE the string lengths.  76 and 81 or 82 cm.  HUGE baroque
lutes!  They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch
than f at 415.



Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is
not
so easy to come by.
Regards
Anthony

Le 6 fevr. 08 =E0 12:57, Edward Martin a ecrit :


Anthony, and all,

I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.
There are
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is
undetermined,
but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that
they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.

Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes
attractive, as
he had
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a
little to
make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go
to the
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will
multiple
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from
after the
conversion.

No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players,
and
they
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were
made
using an
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose,
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb
sticking out
quite
sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way
renaissance
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses
that are
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that
lute also
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.

Thanks!

ed



At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the
Edlinger
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then
baroqued
bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by
Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10214Italian

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

I really do not know.  It is possible that it could have been in that 
tuning.  These instruments were in the possession of a noble family, and it 
is not known if the family members played them, or if they had professional 
musicians on staff.  Obviously big baroque lutes were built by Edlinger, 
but we have more questions than answers.




At 12:59 AM 2/7/2008 +0100, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:
Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the "theorbo" 
tuning mentioned by Baron?



Are

Great question.  The answer is simple.  It would have been strung with a 
standard treble, in the usual fashion.  I have not worked out what the 
top pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 
415.  The whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so 
the lowest course would have been around F, not A.  Keep in mind, these 
are 13 course baroque lutes with first & 2nd course single, then courses 
12 & 13 on bass riders.  To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top 
string "as high as it goes", and not concerning where "f" is.


ed



At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
What sort of treble string could support 81cm?
I am amazed.
Anthony

Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit :


At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.
However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.

 "One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as
there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses!"

Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a
thumb nail?

Yes.


In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and
thumb?


Yes, definitely, for the thumb.


It almost sounds as though the player might have had something
attached to his fingers
(like some blues players do).

I doubt that but who knows?


You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking
of the total length.
Do you have any idea of the actual string length?

Those ARE the string lengths.  76 and 81 or 82 cm.  HUGE baroque
lutes!  They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch
than f at 415.


Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not
so easy to come by.
Regards
Anthony
Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony, and all,
I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.
There are
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is
undetermined,
but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.
Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as
he had
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a
little to
make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go
to the
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will
multiple
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from
after the
conversion.
No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players, and
they
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were made
using an
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose,
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out
quite
sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way renaissance
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses
that are
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that
lute also
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.
Thanks!
ed

At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the
Edlinger
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then
baroqued
bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html
However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in
returning to
the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could
well
indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were
left when
it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque
technique traces might have been left.
 " One 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Amen.

ed

At 04:29 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
>I am also struck by the small number of lutes that actually are
>copied now; and when we think that extant lutes are such a small
>number of the great variety that once existed, I can't help thinking
>that this is further restricting the wide tonal variety that once
>must have existed.
>
>Anthony



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Great question.  The answer is simple.  It would have been strung with a 
standard treble, in the usual fashion.  I have not worked out what the top 
pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 415.  The 
whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the lowest 
course would have been around F, not A.  Keep in mind, these are 13 course 
baroque lutes with first & 2nd course single, then courses 12 & 13 on bass 
riders.  To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top string "as high as it 
goes", and not concerning where "f" is.


ed



At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
What sort of treble string could support 81cm?
I am amazed.
Anthony


Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit :


At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.

However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.

 "One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as
there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses!"


Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a
thumb nail?


Yes.


In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and
thumb?



Yes, definitely, for the thumb.


It almost sounds as though the player might have had something
attached to his fingers
(like some blues players do).


I doubt that but who knows?



You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking
of the total length.
Do you have any idea of the actual string length?


Those ARE the string lengths.  76 and 81 or 82 cm.  HUGE baroque
lutes!  They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch
than f at 415.



Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not
so easy to come by.
Regards
Anthony

Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony, and all,

I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.
There are
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is
undetermined,
but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.

Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as
he had
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a
little to
make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go
to the
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will
multiple
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from
after the
conversion.

No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players, and
they
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were made
using an
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose,
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out
quite
sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way renaissance
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses
that are
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that
lute also
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.

Thanks!

ed



At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the
Edlinger
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then
baroqued
bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html

However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in
returning to
the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could
well
indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were
left when
it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque
technique traces might have been left.
 " One player played

near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as
well as
the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger
marks.  One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as
there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this
particular
instrument, there were more than one player

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Yes, they do!  It is breathtaking.  I did take some time looking at the 
Strad mandolin, as well as the Strad guitar, Sellas guitars, Voboam guitar, 
etc, etc.

Incredible.

ed

At 09:07 AM 2/6/2008 -0500, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>Marvelous!  Thanks for spinning your yarn, Ed.  They also hold the 1680 
>"Cutler-Challen" mandolino by Stradivari and a number of other interesting 
>early mandolins.
>
>
>At 08:11 AM 2/6/2008, Edward Martin wrote:
>>I sent this to the baroque list yesterday, but I re-thought this, and I am
>>also sending it to the general lute list (sorry if it offends anyone).
>>
>>ed
>>
>>Dear ones,
>>
>>I have an interesting story.
>>
>>Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South
>>Dakota.  It was an absolutely fantastic experience.  They have many, many
>>lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger.  They also have guitars
>>by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam.  Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri,
>>Amati, etc.  It was unbelievable.
>>
>>The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers!  We examined them for
>>about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc.  They
>>have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others.  One is 76 cm
>>mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
>>Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker.  Later, they were converted
>>to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger;  the longer instrument in
>>1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's
>>eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
>>
>>What really startled me was the 76 cm lute.  It is documented that these
>>lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years.  It appeared to me
>>that 2, or 3 different players used this lute.  It showed heavy usage, so
>>it was more than likely played at a professional level.  One player played
>>near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as
>>the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks.  One
>>player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
>>multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long
>>right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose, towards the
>>neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
>>instrument, there were more than one player using very different
>>techniques.  As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed
>>towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge.
>>
>>The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very
>>close to the bridge.  The little area at the treble end of the bridge was
>>worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.
>>
>>It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the
>>same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13
>>course baroque lutes with bass riders.  They do appear to have had
>>dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the
>>sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2
>>instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players.
>>
>>All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so
>>close up, and to hold them in playing position.  The marks I mentioned on
>>the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very
>>open & obvious to the naked eye.
>>
>>ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Edward Martin
>>2817 East 2nd Street
>>Duluth, Minnesota  55812
>>e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>voice:  (218) 728-1202
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>Eugene C. Braig IV
>Assistant Director
>Ohio Sea Grant College Program,
>F.T. Stone Laboratory, CLEAR, and GLAERC
>The Ohio State University
>Area 100 Research Center
>1314 Kinnear Rd.
>Columbus, OH 43212
>
>Phone:  614-292-8949
>FAX:614-292-4364
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://www.ohioseagrant.osu.edu/
>http://snr.osu.edu/myhome/braig.1
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
>269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely.  They were documented to be in 
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a "Heckel" looked 
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>  Thank you for this.
>
>Just a thought,  but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound 
>a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.  Could it have 
>been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I 
>realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not 
>have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the 
>house having a strum on the old lute he found in the 
>attic..
>
>MH
>
>
>Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Dear ones,
>
>I have an interesting story.
>
>Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South
>Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many
>lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars
>by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri,
>Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.
>
>The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for
>about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They
>have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm
>mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
>Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted
>to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in
>1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's
>eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
>
>What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these
>lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me
>that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so
>it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played
>near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as
>the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One
>player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
>multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long
>right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the
>neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
>instrument, there were more than one player using very different
>techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed
>towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge.
>
>The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very
>close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was
>worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.
>
>It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the
>same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13
>course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had
>dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the
>sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2
>instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players.
>
>All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so
>close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on
>the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very
>open & obvious to the naked eye.
>
>ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Edward Martin
>2817 East 2nd Street
>Duluth, Minnesota 55812
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>voice: (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>Sent from 
>Yahoo!
> 
>- a smarter inbox.
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 
>8:57 PM



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

Marvelous!  Thanks for spinning your yarn, Ed.  They also hold the 1680 
"Cutler-Challen" mandolino by Stradivari and a number of other interesting 
early mandolins.


At 08:11 AM 2/6/2008, Edward Martin wrote:
>I sent this to the baroque list yesterday, but I re-thought this, and I am
>also sending it to the general lute list (sorry if it offends anyone).
>
>ed
>
>Dear ones,
>
>I have an interesting story.
>
>Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South
>Dakota.  It was an absolutely fantastic experience.  They have many, many
>lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger.  They also have guitars
>by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam.  Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri,
>Amati, etc.  It was unbelievable.
>
>The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers!  We examined them for
>about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc.  They
>have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others.  One is 76 cm
>mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
>Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker.  Later, they were converted
>to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger;  the longer instrument in
>1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's
>eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
>
>What really startled me was the 76 cm lute.  It is documented that these
>lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years.  It appeared to me
>that 2, or 3 different players used this lute.  It showed heavy usage, so
>it was more than likely played at a professional level.  One player played
>near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as
>the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks.  One
>player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
>multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long
>right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose, towards the
>neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
>instrument, there were more than one player using very different
>techniques.  As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed
>towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge.
>
>The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very
>close to the bridge.  The little area at the treble end of the bridge was
>worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.
>
>It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the
>same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13
>course baroque lutes with bass riders.  They do appear to have had
>dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the
>sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2
>instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players.
>
>All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so
>close up, and to hold them in playing position.  The marks I mentioned on
>the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very
>open & obvious to the naked eye.
>
>ed
>
>
>
>
>
>Edward Martin
>2817 East 2nd Street
>Duluth, Minnesota  55812
>e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>voice:  (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


Eugene C. Braig IV
Assistant Director
Ohio Sea Grant College Program,
F.T. Stone Laboratory, CLEAR, and GLAERC
The Ohio State University
Area 100 Research Center
1314 Kinnear Rd.
Columbus, OH 43212

Phone:  614-292-8949
FAX:614-292-4364
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ohioseagrant.osu.edu/
http://snr.osu.edu/myhome/braig.1 

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Martyn Hodgson]

Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:57:10 + 
(GMT)
From: Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
To: Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   Thank you for this.
   
  Just a thought,  but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a 
bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.  Could it have been 
used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's 
got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to 
string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the 
old lute he found in the attic..
   
  MH
   
  
Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South 
Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many 
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars 
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, 
Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for 
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They 
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm 
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by 
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted 
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 
1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's 
eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.

What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these 
lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me 
that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so 
it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played 
near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as 
the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One 
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are 
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long 
right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the 
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular 
instrument, there were more than one player using very different 
techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed 
towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge.

The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very 
close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was 
worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.

It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the 
same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13 
course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had 
dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the 
sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2 
instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players.

All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so 
close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on 
the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very 
open & obvious to the naked eye.

ed








Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice: (218) 728-1202




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-
  Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.

   
-
 Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.
--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.

However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.

 "One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses!"


Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a
thumb nail?


Yes.


In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and
thumb?



Yes, definitely, for the thumb.


It almost sounds as though the player might have had something
attached to his fingers
(like some blues players do).


I doubt that but who knows?



You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking
of the total length.
Do you have any idea of the actual string length?


Those ARE the string lengths.  76 and 81 or 82 cm.  HUGE baroque 
lutes!  They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch than f at 415.




Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not
so easy to come by.
Regards
Anthony

Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony, and all,

I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.
There are
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is
undetermined,
but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.

Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as
he had
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a
little to
make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go to the
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will
multiple
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from
after the
conversion.

No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players, and
they
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were made
using an
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose,
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out
quite
sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way renaissance
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses
that are
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that
lute also
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.

Thanks!

ed



At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then
baroqued
bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html

However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in
returning to
the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could
well
indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were
left when
it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque
technique traces might have been left.
 " One player played

near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as
well as
the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger
marks.  One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this
particular
instrument, there were more than one player using very different
techniques.  " Ed


This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique.
In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance
traces
might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its
Renaissance
sound board.
I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how
old the
soundboards are.




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM




Edward Martin
2817 E

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Anthony Hind]

Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,  
they could have been erased.

As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.

However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the  
strings right up to the diapasons.

 "One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),  
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,  
towards the

neck, on all the diapason courses!"


Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a  
thumb nail?
In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and  
thumb?
It almost sounds as though the player might have had something  
attached to his fingers

(like some blues players do).

You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking  
of the total length.

Do you have any idea of the actual string length?

Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not  
so easy to come by.

Regards
Anthony

Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony, and all,

I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.   
There are
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes  
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if  
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to  
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is  
undetermined,

but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.

Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13  
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as  
he had
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a  
little to

make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go to the
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will  
multiple
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from  
after the

conversion.

No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players, and  
they
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were made  
using an
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose,  
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which  
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out  
quite

sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way renaissance
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses  
that are
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that  
lute also

suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.

Thanks!

ed



At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then  
baroqued

bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html

However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in  
returning to
the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could  
well

indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were  
left when

it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque
technique traces might have been left.
 " One player played
near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as  
well as
the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger  
marks.  One

player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),  
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,  
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this  
particular

instrument, there were more than one player using very different
techniques.  " Ed


This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique.
In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance  
traces
might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its  
Renaissance

sound board.
I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how  
old the

soundboards are.




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Edward Martin]

Anthony, and all,

I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.  There are 
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes were bass 
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were 
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to them being 
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is undetermined, 
but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that they are 
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.

Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13 course 
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had 
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to 
make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go to the 
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple 
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from after the 
conversion.

No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players, and they 
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were made using an 
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the 
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a 
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite 
sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way renaissance 
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are 
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that lute also 
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.

Thanks!

ed



At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
>It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger 
>lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued 
>bt Edlinger,
>but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
>http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
>http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html
>
>However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in returning to 
>the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could well 
>indicate that this
>was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left when 
>it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque 
>technique traces might have been left.
>  " One player played
>>near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as well as
>>the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks.  One
>>player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
>>multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long
>>right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose, towards the
>>neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
>>instrument, there were more than one player using very different
>>techniques.  " Ed
>
>This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique.
>In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance traces 
>might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its Renaissance 
>sound board.
>I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how old the 
>soundboards are.



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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