[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Edward Martin]

Yes, this is how it appears to be.  In examining the top, it showed all 
signs of nail usage.  I have never, ever encountered evidence to show that 
some sort of finger pick was used for the baroque lute.  Nails were used by 
some, and nails are what made these marks.

Keep in mind, that in this day and age, we tend to have the tops "dished", 
or "scooped" a bit, so the strings are not quite so close to the belly; 
Edlinger did not scoop either one of these baroque lutes, and the action 
was quite close, for the right hand.  Hence, the finger _and_ nail marks 
from the various players of this great lute.



ed

At 10:33 PM 2/8/2008 +0100, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros=B3aw_Lipski?= wrote:
>So, to sum up my guess is Edlinger was scratched  by somebody playing with
>his natural finger nails. It would be interesting to find out when it had
>took place in past, but probably such an investigation would be very
>difficult and expensive.
>
>Jaroslaw



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,
>From the detail David send us(the big close up) I could say Pellegrini had
very long nails on all fingers. They don't look like artificial ones unless
they had Superglue at that time (which is rather improbable :-))
This could explain scratches in a simplest possible way. Have you
encountered any mention of the artificial finger nails in any literature
from XVII or XVIII c?  
On the other hand it was not impossible to make such a gadget at that time
and can not be out ruled. I tried to play single strung theorbo in the big
orchestra with short nails and it seems to work because nobody can hear it's
tone color anyway but the projection is definitely better - some similarity
to harpsichord. The old ones must have noticed this correlation since some
mention "those that use finger nails", however in the smaller ensemble this
technique doesn't seem to work so well. Besides it's much more money
consuming because you have to change guts more frequently (nails spoil gut
no matter how polished). Anyway I abandoned this technique for ever because
for me it's just better to play the proper size theorbo, but the old ones
were evidently seeking the new ways of coping with the same problems that we
encounter, thus the evidence of using finger nails.
So, to sum up my guess is Edlinger was scratched  by somebody playing with
his natural finger nails. It would be interesting to find out when it had
took place in past, but probably such an investigation would be very
difficult and expensive.

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:21 PM
To: David Van Edwards; David Tayler; LGS-Europe; Edward Martin; Jarosław
Lipski
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

Dear All
Thanks to David Van Edwards, I think I found the picture mentioned  
by Rob.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg20273.html

I am not sure of the significance for our question here. Although if  
these are artificial nails, it would not be impossible, that  
something similar made the marks on the Edlinger.
However, Jaroslaw, has told us that even  (medium length) finger  
nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks, can make such an effect.
Original
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg
Detail
http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

This appears to be the detailed image, that comes from David Tayler


[LUTE] Re: ughpellergini again #3

David Tayler
Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:05:34 -0700

I've posted a detail here, it is surprising from the angle of the
light that the first fingernail would be black, but that may be  
possible.

http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

There are heavy shadows on all the elements, so the finger would have
to have a shadow, as do the other fingers.

No nail on the thumb though, perhaps the better scan will reveal all.

Very interesting picture, thanks to Rich for showing it.


http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:27:18 -0700

That is an interesting picture.
No nails on the thumb and first finger, but nails on the other ones.
The dark spot under first finger is the shadow, in contrast to the  
light nails.

May have trimmed the thumb & first finger and played with two  
fingers, as I do,
but those other fingers look pretty serious.
A strong argument for a two fingered, chordal technique without nails,
or a three fingered technique with the nails, but you can't use your
thumb and first finger.
Knowing nothing, I vote for the former.
dt

btw, if you take out the junk DNA the link looks
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg

Anthony


Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 17:28, David Van Edwards a ecrit :

> Dear All,
>
> About a year ago there was some discussion of an engraving of an  
> early guitarist/composer which seemed to show he had a nail on at  
> least one finger. I put up the picture and said that I thought I  
> could see indications of another nail and surmised that both from  
> their appearance.might have been artificial. At the time I had a  
> passing interest and was trying to help the discussion. I seem to  
> have taken down the picture, at least I can't find it either, and  
> have also deleted it from my computer and the details from my  
> memory! This was because it was a guitarist not a theorbo player  
> and, narrow-mindedly(!) I'm not very concerned with guitar matters.
>
> So I'm sorry not to be able to help further, I suggest looking in  
> the archive of the lute net.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
> At 17:01 +0100 8/2/08, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> Jaroslaw
>> Well that could be the explanation then, medium length  
>> nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low  
>> tesnion strings. Although R

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Dear All
Thanks to David Van Edwards, I think I found the picture mentioned  
by Rob.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg20273.html

I am not sure of the significance for our question here. Although if  
these are artificial nails, it would not be impossible, that  
something similar made the marks on the Edlinger.
However, Jaroslaw, has told us that even  (medium length) finger  
nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks, can make such an effect.
Original
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg
Detail
http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

This appears to be the detailed image, that comes from David Tayler


[LUTE] Re: ughpellergini again #3

David Tayler
Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:05:34 -0700

I've posted a detail here, it is surprising from the angle of the
light that the first fingernail would be black, but that may be  
possible.

http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

There are heavy shadows on all the elements, so the finger would have
to have a shadow, as do the other fingers.

No nail on the thumb though, perhaps the better scan will reveal all.

Very interesting picture, thanks to Rich for showing it.


http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html

Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:27:18 -0700

That is an interesting picture.
No nails on the thumb and first finger, but nails on the other ones.
The dark spot under first finger is the shadow, in contrast to the  
light nails.

May have trimmed the thumb & first finger and played with two  
fingers, as I do,
but those other fingers look pretty serious.
A strong argument for a two fingered, chordal technique without nails,
or a three fingered technique with the nails, but you can't use your
thumb and first finger.
Knowing nothing, I vote for the former.
dt

btw, if you take out the junk DNA the link looks
http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg

Anthony


Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 17:28, David Van Edwards a ecrit :

> Dear All,
>
> About a year ago there was some discussion of an engraving of an  
> early guitarist/composer which seemed to show he had a nail on at  
> least one finger. I put up the picture and said that I thought I  
> could see indications of another nail and surmised that both from  
> their appearance.might have been artificial. At the time I had a  
> passing interest and was trying to help the discussion. I seem to  
> have taken down the picture, at least I can't find it either, and  
> have also deleted it from my computer and the details from my  
> memory! This was because it was a guitarist not a theorbo player  
> and, narrow-mindedly(!) I'm not very concerned with guitar matters.
>
> So I'm sorry not to be able to help further, I suggest looking in  
> the archive of the lute net.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
> At 17:01 +0100 8/2/08, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> Jaroslaw
>> Well that could be the explanation then, medium length  
>> nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low  
>> tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van  
>> Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a  thumb or  
>> finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail  
>> about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific  
>> to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning  
>> some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a  
>> very long shot, I fear.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
>>>> "theorbo"
>>>> tuning mentioned by Baron?
>>>> Are Vidar Boye Hansen
>> Anthony
>>
>> Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 14:02, Jaros1/2aw Lipski a ecrit :
>>> Anthony,
>>> Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from  
>>> guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal  
>>> (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks).  
>>> The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered  
>>> with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand.  
>>> I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood  
>>> with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood  
>>> of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish,  
>>> the low tension and rather low string action in the place where  
>>> the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my  
>>> instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared  
>>> mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under  
>>> the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb  
>>> nail and the 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Martyn Hodgson]

Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this

  MH
  
Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Jaroslaw
Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and 
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. 
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is 
mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing 
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure 
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an 
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these 
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.
>
>> Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
>> "theorbo"
>> tuning mentioned by Baron?
>> Are Vidar Boye Hansen
>>
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :

> Anthony,
> Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from 
> guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium 
> length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The 
> result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with 
> small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was 
> very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my 
> fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the 
> fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low 
> tension and rather low string action in the place where the right 
> hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in 
> a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the 
> places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This 
> however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact 
> that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)
> Best wishes
>
> Jaroslaw
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
> To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - 
> another thought
>
> Ed
> I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
> through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
> similar marks?
> Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
> extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
> Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
> sharktoothpickproducts.html
> They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
> construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
> Anthony
>
> Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :
>
>> No trouble at all, Martyn.
>>
>> Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
>> lute, as
>> I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
>> the
>> rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
>> position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks
>> would be
>> mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
>> course, down
>> to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
>> position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
>> accordingly. So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
>> rose, but
>> marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
>> pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly.
>>
>> The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
>> not from a
>> strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
>> also asked
>> the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
>> lutenist
>> would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
>> playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is
>> amazing.
>>
>> The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to 
>> the
>> pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
>> long
>> time". The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
>> baroque
>> lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a
>> musician playing close to the bridge.
>>
>> ed
>>
>> At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>> Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
>>> played in
>>> its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
>>> dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 
>>> 13th
>>> courses would run?
>>>
>&g

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Jaroslaw
	Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and  
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings.  
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is  
mention (or a painting) of a  thumb or finger attachment for playing  
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure  
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an  
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these  
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.



Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
"theorbo"
tuning mentioned by Baron?
Are Vidar Boye Hansen


Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :


Anthony,
Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from  
guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium  
length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The  
result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with  
small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was  
very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my  
fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the  
fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low  
tension and rather low string action in the place where the right  
hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in  
a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the  
places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This  
however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact  
that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota -  
another thought


Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
sharktoothpickproducts.html

They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to  
the

pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to  
13th

courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
<http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in 

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,
Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute 
playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails 
(influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the 
fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my 
right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood 
with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the 
fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and 
rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, 
made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The 
marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under 
the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the 
fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)
Best wishes

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking  
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving  
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of  
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to  
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :

> No trouble at all, Martyn.
>
> Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course  
> lute, as
> I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near  
> the
> rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
> position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks  
> would be
> mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th  
> course, down
> to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
> position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
> accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the  
> rose, but
> marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
> pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.
>
> The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and  
> not from a
> strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have  
> also asked
> the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque  
> lutenist
> would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
> playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is  
> amazing.
>
> The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
> pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very  
> long
> time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different  
> baroque
> lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
> musician playing close to the bridge.
>
> ed
>
> At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>> Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was  
>> played in
>> its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
>> dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
>> courses would run?
>>
>> Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might  
>> still
>> have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.  
>> You'll
>> know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
>> relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,  
>> Padovetz,
>> Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more  
>> courses
>> were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums  
>> playing
>> a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
>> <http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.
>>
>> MH
>>
>> Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from  
>> playing
>> a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were  
>> in the
>> castle attic for "a very long time".
>>
>> ed
>>
>>
>>
>> At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>> Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
>>> movement started in the last decade of the 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Edward Martin]

God question, Anthony.  In absence of any evidence anywhere of making 
"thumb picks" for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done.


ed



At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in the
castle attic for "a very long time".

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before
1907),
perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a
"Heckel" looked
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son
of the
house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of
Music, in

South

Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by
Stradivarius, Ganeri,
Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the l

[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Martyn Hodgson]

 
  I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is 
why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist!  In 1890, say, not so much 
respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and 
antiquarian circles.
   
  OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes 
and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that 
an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been 
so brutal.
   
  Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle 
attic
   
  Martyn
   
  Martyn

Rob Lute <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at
least.

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