[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Dec 6, 2010, at 5:22 AM, [1]...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: I have no problem with people moving to music while performing, if it is genuinely felt. It's when these motions and expressions seem contrived to impress an audience that I have to stop looking. Like the actors say: it's all about sincerity. Once you can fake that you have it made. Some young female violinist reacted to criticism about her contortions with: I have more important things to think about when I'm playing then what my left eyebrow is doing . Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ [3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ -- References 1. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can
be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of
the theatrical space.
$
However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way
certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos
quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan.
They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are
into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the
Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted.
The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of
these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse
them with excitement and tension.
Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on,
They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to
be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept
that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition).
$
This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the
Azerbaidjanis:
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related
One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on
instrument and voice.
However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani
players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western
tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience
walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my
opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no
such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be
doing their best to cater...
$
On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing
musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his
almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary
emotional affects.
[2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related
Regards
Anthony
Message d'origine
De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com
A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET
Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net;
Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The
question of
how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered.
I
prefer less theatre.
Ned
On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote:
On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky
r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
[3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig
His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite
disturbing to
me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to
me to
listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his
suffering
face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you
feel
deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to
me - my
problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep
feeling
gestures harmed severely getting the message.
Arto
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I'm not fond of theatrics myself, but take a look at almost ANY concert pianist. It seems almost to be expected there. Can you really blame a poor lutenist for wanting to cash in on the hype? G. - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
He indeed cashed in with Sting! ;) A. On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:53 PM, G. Crona wrote: I'm not fond of theatrics myself, but take a look at almost ANY concert pianist. It seems almost to be expected there. Can you really blame a poor lutenist for wanting to cash in on the hype? G. - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I saw it another way. I felt his gestures were consistent with the musical content and even necessary to the musical expression, even if somewhat more exaggerated than I would use. Each one marked a change in dyamics and or the beginning or ending of a phrase. A similar thing used to be said about jazz pianist Thelonius Monk's gestures and is currently said about Kieth Jarrett's antics. It may be, however, the gestures are a necessary part of achieving the musical result, are used very consciously to produce that result, and are not purely theatrical devices. Was Edin improvising? That might have a bearing on the gestures also. Gary - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 4:45 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Heaven forbid, a lutenist should make a living wage playing his/her lute. And playing it well, I might add. Gary - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov He indeed cashed in with Sting! ;) A. On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:53 PM, G. Crona wrote: I'm not fond of theatrics myself, but take a look at almost ANY concert pianist. It seems almost to be expected there. Can you really blame a poor lutenist for wanting to cash in on the hype? G. - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Somehow I only manage to get actively involved on the lute-list when controversy arises. Not very nice form my part :( On Dec 5, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Gary Digman wrote: Heaven forbid, a lutenist should make a living wage playing his/her lute. And playing it well, I might add. Gary - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov He indeed cashed in with Sting! ;) A. On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:53 PM, G. Crona wrote: I'm not fond of theatrics myself, but take a look at almost ANY concert pianist. It seems almost to be expected there. Can you really blame a poor lutenist for wanting to cash in on the hype? G. - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
My father once wrote: More artists died from others' fame than from natural causes. RT - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 8:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Heaven forbid, a lutenist should make a living wage playing his/her lute. And playing it well, I might add. Gary - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov He indeed cashed in with Sting! ;) A. On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:53 PM, G. Crona wrote: I'm not fond of theatrics myself, but take a look at almost ANY concert pianist. It seems almost to be expected there. Can you really blame a poor lutenist for wanting to cash in on the hype? G. - Original Message - From: Alfonso Marin luten...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I have the feeling that he uses music to create an image that feeds with obviously huge ego. I do not buy it, not musically nor lutenistically and most of all artistically. On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I find Edin's style totally dignified, in partucular when compared with, say, Mark Wheeler's. RT - Original Message - From: Alexandros Tzimeros sarab...@otenet.gr To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It's a pitty. Such a good player and he insists on all these funny theatrical expressions and kitchy video clips. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Great musicians often have an amazing presence on stage, but this can be with minimal gesture. Their very presence takes complete control of the theatrical space. $ However, it could be argued that there are differences in the way certain cultures approach this question. I recently saw the Kronos quartet in combination with the Ensemble Alim Qasimov from Azerbajan. They were dialoguing musically together, and although the Kronos are into such fusion, nevertheless the emotional expressivity of the Azerbajanis made them look a little stilted. The words of Alim Qasimov are clear on that subject: The words of these songs are very simple. We give them feelings, we try to infuse them with excitement and tension. Nevertheless, the emotions on the face of Alim look in no way put-on, They are a necessary part of his performance, which does not feel to be the case with Edin Amira (although, I am quite willing to accept that they mzy well have roots in such a tradition). $ This recording shows the first contacts between Kronos and the Azerbaidjanis: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMpmB4olbAfeature=related One very interesting piece was evoking the neighing of a young horse on instrument and voice. However, in spite of the quality of the performance, the Azerbaijani players in no way compromised themselves in catering for Western tastes. The result is that about a quarter of the French audience walked out noisily during their performance in Paris, showing in my opinion, their complete musical ignorance. I am willing to bet that no such walk out would occur with Edin and Amira, but they do seem to be doing their best to cater... $ On the other hand, I watched an amazing film of Ravi Shankar dialoguing musically with his daughter, extremely moving, but in spite of his almost mystical involvement in his music, there were no unnecessary emotional affects. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2moqxqIaEfeature=related Regards Anthony Message d'origine De : Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com A : wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Objet : [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Date : 05/12/2010 02:04:33 CET Copie `a : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I find that only people who think of themselves as serious musicians or music lovers have a problem with performers moving to the music. My advice to those bothered by what they perceive as someone getting into it too much would be either A) Don't look, just listen B) Accept it as an alternative style of performance that may not necessarily be your own preference or C) Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music). To me, the only way one's movements can really distract from my enjoyment of the music is if a performer is missing notes because they're flipping their lutes around their necks or something. No one owns this music, even less the way one chooses to look while playing it. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
You can eat at my table. RT - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com I find that only people who think of themselves as serious musicians or music lovers have a problem with performers moving to the music. My advice to those bothered by what they perceive as someone getting into it too much would be either A) Don't look, just listen B) Accept it as an alternative style of performance that may not necessarily be your own preference or C) Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music). To me, the only way one's movements can really distract from my enjoyment of the music is if a performer is missing notes because they're flipping their lutes around their necks or something. No one owns this music, even less the way one chooses to look while playing it. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Dec 5, 2010, at 7:23 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music) Well, no. As intriguing as the thought of Mozart stomping along like Freddie Mercury doing Fat-bottomed Girls is, it seemed pretty unlikely, and the truth is quite different. Courtesy of Friedrich Kerst's Mozart: the man and the artist revealed in his own words (1905), page 28: Reported by Rochlitz: Mozart was rehearsing the Allegro of one of his symphonies in Leipsic [sic]. He worked up such a fit of anger than he stamped his foot and broke one of his shoelaces. His anger fled and he broke into a merry laugh. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Lulli hit himself in the foot while conducting with such strenght that he got gangrene and died. There you have an illustration of 17th century comportment. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov On Dec 5, 2010, at 7:23 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music) Well, no. As intriguing as the thought of Mozart stomping along like Freddie Mercury doing Fat-bottomed Girls is, it seemed pretty unlikely, and the truth is quite different. Courtesy of Friedrich Kerst's Mozart: the man and the artist revealed in his own words (1905), page 28: Reported by Rochlitz: Mozart was rehearsing the Allegro of one of his symphonies in Leipsic [sic]. He worked up such a fit of anger than he stamped his foot and broke one of his shoelaces. His anger fled and he broke into a merry laugh. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Dec 5, 2010, at 8:53 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Lulli hit himself in the foot while conducting with such strenght that he got gangrene and died. There you have an illustration of 17th century comportment. But rather the opposite of what the listers are complaining about with EK. Lully was conducting a Te Deum for the king's convalescence by banging on the floor with a wooden staff. Holding something heavy enough to punch a hole in his foot, and dressed in the sort of clothes he'd be wearing for a formal state occasion, his motions would likely have been formal and stiff. it's hard to imagine him making dramatic overwrought gestures, even if they were otherwise acceptable in that culture. But I wasn't there. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Hear, Hear! From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke [chriswi...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 10:23 AM To: Edward Mast; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky; Anthony Hind Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov I find that only people who think of themselves as serious musicians or music lovers have a problem with performers moving to the music. My advice to those bothered by what they perceive as someone getting into it too much would be either A) Don't look, just listen B) Accept it as an alternative style of performance that may not necessarily be your own preference or C) Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music). To me, the only way one's movements can really distract from my enjoyment of the music is if a performer is missing notes because they're flipping their lutes around their necks or something. No one owns this music, even less the way one chooses to look while playing it. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Very true! To clarify - I have no problem with people moving to music while performing, if it is genuinely felt. It's when these motions and expressions seem contrived to impress an audience that I have to stop looking. But that doesn't mean I have to stop listening ; ) Tom I find that only people who think of themselves as serious musicians or music lovers have a problem with performers moving to the music. My advice to those bothered by what they perceive as someone getting into it too much would be either A) Don't look, just listen B) Accept it as an alternative style of performance that may not necessarily be your own preference or C) Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music). To me, the only way one's movements can really distract from my enjoyment of the music is if a performer is missing notes because they're flipping their lutes around their necks or something. No one owns this music, even less the way one chooses to look while playing it. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
The video in question was not made for any audience, so it was an entirely unstaged. RT - Original Message - From: t...@heartistrymusic.com To: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com; e...@gamutstrings.com; Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Very true! To clarify - I have no problem with people moving to music while performing, if it is genuinely felt. It's when these motions and expressions seem contrived to impress an audience that I have to stop looking. But that doesn't mean I have to stop listening ; ) Tom I find that only people who think of themselves as serious musicians or music lovers have a problem with performers moving to the music. My advice to those bothered by what they perceive as someone getting into it too much would be either A) Don't look, just listen B) Accept it as an alternative style of performance that may not necessarily be your own preference or C) Travel back in time to the gallant era when such things mattered (just be sure to avoid Mozart, who once broke a shoe because he was stomping along so forcefully to the music). To me, the only way one's movements can really distract from my enjoyment of the music is if a performer is missing notes because they're flipping their lutes around their necks or something. No one owns this music, even less the way one chooses to look while playing it. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The video in question was not made for any audience It must have been made for someone to see. This was a professional shoot (with three cameras?), and EK could scarcely have been unaware of the closeup camera. That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Just have a look at Pavel Steidl on Youtube... A great romantic guitar player. Perhaps as Karamazov you can like or not his gesture but he is a great player. The problem with Karamazov is he made some very good job (Bach on a gibson like electric guitar is really great), and some awful (I think about his version with candles of the Forlorn hope fancy...) V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I have a high tolerance for gestures, because as I get older I need to move my arms farther than is necessary to keep from getting stiff or even cramps. I'm not sayingthat's the case here, but everyone has to move in their own way. And when it is too much, hopefully one will address it in a constructive way, like hey, I saw an airplane land near your house. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Well, I guess I started this (interesting, thanks to all commentators!) gesture talk. To me K's gestures in this certain video we talk here, certainly are of no annoyance. Truly. They just spoil and hinder my possible enjoyment of the music - I just cannot close my eyes, when the music is made visual. And as someone already wrote, there certainly are cultural differences in what looks natural and what looks artificial. To me watching K's suffering(?) face in this very video spoils all of the possible musical message. And as I wrote in my message - this is my problem, not K's! Neither anyone else's, who doesn't get disturbed... Arto On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:06:03 -0800, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The video in question was not made for any audience It must have been made for someone to see. This was a professional shoot (with three cameras?), and EK could scarcely have been unaware of the closeup camera. That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
What about hand/body gestures and facial expressions in baroque opera? ...or a silent movie, for that matter. Very artificial, contrived and totally HIP. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Sun, 12/5/10, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:32 PM Well, I guess I started this (interesting, thanks to all commentators!) gesture talk. To me K's gestures in this certain video we talk here, certainly are of no annoyance. Truly. They just spoil and hinder my possible enjoyment of the music - I just cannot close my eyes, when the music is made visual. And as someone already wrote, there certainly are cultural differences in what looks natural and what looks artificial. To me watching K's suffering(?) face in this very video spoils all of the possible musical message. And as I wrote in my message - this is my problem, not K's! Neither anyone else's, who doesn't get disturbed... Arto On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:06:03 -0800, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The video in question was not made for any audience It must have been made for someone to see. This was a professional shoot (with three cameras?), and EK could scarcely have been unaware of the closeup camera. That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:36:06 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: What about hand/body gestures and facial expressions in baroque opera? Ok. Why asked? Something to do with K? ...or a silent movie, for that matter. Very artificial, contrived and totally HIP. Yep. What is the message here? No argument against the hipness of anything. I still must stress that there was no moral/intellectual/religious/etc. critics to K's video! Just that it did not please me, I did not like the show, it was - just to me - a performance that did not work. I did not get the possible musical message. I am happy you got it! And I suppose so did the majority? Arto Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Sun, 12/5/10, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:32 PM Well, I guess I started this (interesting, thanks to all commentators!) gesture talk. To me K's gestures in this certain video we talk here, certainly are of no annoyance. Truly. They just spoil and hinder my possible enjoyment of the music - I just cannot close my eyes, when the music is made visual. And as someone already wrote, there certainly are cultural differences in what looks natural and what looks artificial. To me watching K's suffering(?) face in this very video spoils all of the possible musical message. And as I wrote in my message - this is my problem, not K's! Neither anyone else's, who doesn't get disturbed... Arto On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:06:03 -0800, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The video in question was not made for any audience It must have been made for someone to see. This was a professional shoot (with three cameras?), and EK could scarcely have been unaware of the closeup camera. That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Alas, I was not clear, left out a word, resulting in tautology... On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:06 PM, howard posner wrote: That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. I meant to say big, impulsive musical gestures. i.e. the physical gestures are in keeping with the musical gestures, which are more dramatic (hysterical?), or Mannerist, than the instrument is known for. I sometimes get the impression that he plays a lot of music as if it's Gesualdo or Monteverdi's Mannerist madrigals, where every line of the poem has different music to mark the shift of mood. I find it jerky for Weiss (that is a Weiss prelude he plays at the beginning of the video of the sinfonia to Cantata BWV 156, no?) or the ultra-rational Bach, where the music has an overwhelming ordered logic. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Interesting that you mention silent movies. Yes, those gestures were exaggerated and contrived to compensate for the lack of sound. Some of the techniques were hold-overs from theatre in an era when lighting was poor. A friend of mine who is a cinematographer says, Video is 90% audio. The silent movie era had to rely on gross gestures and facial expressions coupled with Wurlitzer organ accompaniments to make up for that 90%. And, YES, it's way cool what the good directors did. Have you seen what Abel Gance did with Napolean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napol%C3%A9on_%281927_film%29 Tom What about hand/body gestures and facial expressions in baroque opera? ...or a silent movie, for that matter. Very artificial, contrived and totally HIP. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Sun, 12/5/10, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:32 PM Well, I guess I started this (interesting, thanks to all commentators!) gesture talk. To me K's gestures in this certain video we talk here, certainly are of no annoyance. Truly. They just spoil and hinder my possible enjoyment of the music - I just cannot close my eyes, when the music is made visual. And as someone already wrote, there certainly are cultural differences in what looks natural and what looks artificial. To me watching K's suffering(?) face in this very video spoils all of the possible musical message. And as I wrote in my message - this is my problem, not K's! Neither anyone else's, who doesn't get disturbed... Arto On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:06:03 -0800, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The video in question was not made for any audience It must have been made for someone to see. This was a professional shoot (with three cameras?), and EK could scarcely have been unaware of the closeup camera. That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I think the main message here is that stage deportment is very significant. We can't - even if we wanted to - separate our visual from our auditory sense. Obviously - from this thread - the positive or negative significance it has is quite subjective. Ned On Dec 5, 2010, at 5:54 PM, wikla wrote: On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:36:06 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: What about hand/body gestures and facial expressions in baroque opera? Ok. Why asked? Something to do with K? ...or a silent movie, for that matter. Very artificial, contrived and totally HIP. Yep. What is the message here? No argument against the hipness of anything. I still must stress that there was no moral/intellectual/religious/etc. critics to K's video! Just that it did not please me, I did not like the show, it was - just to me - a performance that did not work. I did not get the possible musical message. I am happy you got it! And I suppose so did the majority? Arto Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Sun, 12/5/10, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:32 PM Well, I guess I started this (interesting, thanks to all commentators!) gesture talk. To me K's gestures in this certain video we talk here, certainly are of no annoyance. Truly. They just spoil and hinder my possible enjoyment of the music - I just cannot close my eyes, when the music is made visual. And as someone already wrote, there certainly are cultural differences in what looks natural and what looks artificial. To me watching K's suffering(?) face in this very video spoils all of the possible musical message. And as I wrote in my message - this is my problem, not K's! Neither anyone else's, who doesn't get disturbed... Arto On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:06:03 -0800, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The video in question was not made for any audience It must have been made for someone to see. This was a professional shoot (with three cameras?), and EK could scarcely have been unaware of the closeup camera. That said, his gestures do seem to be part and parcel of his performing style, which is full of big, impulsive gestures. Reminds me a bit of watching Jim Carrey in his more manic roles. In the lute world, where gestures are normally small, I can see where it can inspire great enthusiasm in some auditors, and great annoyance in others. I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle, I suppose. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Beautiful. I'm fascinated by that lute. Edin may be on to something. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3291 - Release Date: 11/30/10 23:34:00
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
He has probably 8 of them, all strung differently. RT - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 4:21 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Beautiful. I'm fascinated by that lute. Edin may be on to something. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3291 - Release Date: 11/30/10 23:34:00
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
I agree, Arto. I find all the exaggerated motion he makes a barrier to the music. At 04:16 PM 12/4/2010, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Yes, I agree ... although I've seen worse (not just on lute). I always have to question, How much of this is calculated and staged, how much is genuine? Still, an amazing, creative artist. Tom Just my problem. . .. No, a problem for at least me too. The question of how much musical performance is theatre, is always to be considered. I prefer less theatre. Ned On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, wikla wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig His strong movements, his gestures while playing, are quite disturbing to me. Just my problem, I guess and also admit. It would be easier to me to listen to his very musical playing without the video showing his suffering face. I do know that certain amount of theatre of showing that you feel deeply is necessary - it is an important part of the show. But to me - my problem as I wrote - in this performance the amount of deep feeling gestures harmed severely getting the message. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig RT From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Interesting and beautiful in its genre! Is the lute amplified or just mixed front? Arto On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig RT From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
The latter. RT - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 12:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Interesting and beautiful in its genre! Is the lute amplified or just mixed front? Arto On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 11:23:56 -0500, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLoX2TTAig RT From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Thank you, Roman; What sort of lute is Edin playing? 13 courses and the first 5 are single. This is new to me. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3291 - Release Date: 11/30/10 23:34:00
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
The same Mateus archlute he used for the BachBritten CD, hence the peculiar stringing. RT - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Thank you, Roman; What sort of lute is Edin playing? 13 courses and the first 5 are single. This is new to me. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3291 - Release Date: 11/30/10 23:34:00
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
It was done in order to make possible artificial harmonics and other unusual techniques. RT The same Mateus archlute he used for the BachBritten CD, hence the peculiar stringing. RT - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Thank you, Roman; What sort of lute is Edin playing? 13 courses and the first 5 are single. This is new to me. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3291 - Release Date: 11/30/10 23:34:00
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Unorthodox as ever but brilliant nevertheless! Alexander On 01/12/2010 14:06, Roman Turovsky wrote: It was done in order to make possible artificial harmonics and other unusual techniques. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
A difficult question, the loneliness at the top being poor excuse for elation. I know for a fact that those Things of Beauty that Deviate from the Protocol do in fact get documentably appreciated. That surely helps to deal with the indifferent world. RT I tend to identify with - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Karamazov and Dilettantism! Really fascinating. Is anybody brave enough to throw an exegesis on the combination? Is Karamazov a perversely hidden dilettante dressed up in attributes of great virtuoso or is he an evangelist of true and clean expression, just the instrument (a bit moded but still not enough) isn't perfect? Anyway, it's a case strong and human, beside of being a musical one. Several captions comes to mind on a long distance between master and hustler. One thing is certain -- he will provoke. J _ On 2009-02-08, at 17:49, Roman Turovsky wrote: A difficult question, the loneliness at the top being poor excuse for elation. I know for a fact that those Things of Beauty that Deviate from the Protocol do in fact get documentably appreciated. That surely helps to deal with the indifferent world. RT I tend to identify with - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
BTW, No one seems to have cared/dared to comment on the Kaliopi Karamazov Duet video. It is great music. Here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvP4uZjAf_k RT - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr; lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill Totally. How many people can make jarring sounds musically and meaningfully? RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill ;-) Honest, Roman ? JM === 07-02-2009 01:48:26 === Musicality. RT - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill At what? jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov--was Trench Fill
h maybe. Or maybe no one is the best. There are 5-6 who are. Can you post some comparisons? Than might cause a bit of ill-will. I've certainly heard better perfomances of the chromatic fantasies. dt I haven't. RT At 03:54 PM 2/6/2009, you wrote: That may very well be, but it is hard to fathom, considering that at his worst he is still better than all of us. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:10 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamzov--was Trench Fill I think Karamazov is at his best when he adopts techniques from historical keyboard players. His Bach Toccata (OK, maybe not Bach, whatever) has some very interesting, real baroque stuff in it. Very traditional, basic baroque. Would it be even better with Bach style ornaments? dt At 04:32 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better. Some are. Some aren't. I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide. I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a whole book of deconstructionist. dt Exactly. You've said it. That why I try to learn something from Karamazov. RT At 04:40 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote: As you might expect - I advocate the same thing as Haynes, sans balking. I'd rather deal with the last Tuesday's trills, than anything by, say, Matteis. RT From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mark Wheeler wrote: You should check out Bruce Haynes book The end of early music I couldn't agree more. It's a very good read. Although Haynes is a strong advocate for the writing of new music in the Baroque style, which makes me balk a little bit. I'd rather go to original 17th- or 18th-Century sources than try to deal with French trills in something written last Tuesday. DR dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Roman Turovsky [1]r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: BTW, No one seems to have cared/dared to comment on the Kaliopi Karamazov Duet video. -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.netwrote: BTW, No one seems to have cared/dared to comment on the Kaliopi Karamazov Duet video. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
Spike Jones said, If you're going to shoot off a gun in a tune, you better have good time. Gary - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician For the period in question, 1516-1598 I should think vihuelas are well within reason and fiddles and bows went in a lot of directions. Capos don't bother me much either. It would be like forbidding putting your lute against the right period of table for a little amplification. Or, dare I say suggest it, forbidding reading modern scores. It would be nice and maybe icing on the cake but eventually I'll judge the performance to whether it atchieves the goals of the music, the composer, the players and the director. When a Spike Jones score calls for a C# pistol shot, we really should find a C# pistol but do we really need to find a period revolver? Btw, is that Lee Santana playing percussion? Sean On Mar 23, 2008, at 9:34 AM, igor . wrote: not HIP enough ! Savall plays an early renaissance bow _ Guitarist using Dunlop capo_ Karamazov playing Vihuela _ what a circus p.s. more ValeryThomas please -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1335 - Release Date: 3/19/2008 9:54 AM
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
Keep looking in the mirror, Igor. DR On Mar 23, 2008, at 12:34 PM, igor . wrote: not HIP enough ! Savall plays an early renaissance bow _ Guitarist using Dunlop capo_ Karamazov playing Vihuela _ what a circus p.s. more ValeryThomas please -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
For the period in question, 1516-1598 I should think vihuelas are well within reason and fiddles and bows went in a lot of directions. Capos don't bother me much either. It would be like forbidding putting your lute against the right period of table for a little amplification. Or, dare I say suggest it, forbidding reading modern scores. It would be nice and maybe icing on the cake but eventually I'll judge the performance to whether it atchieves the goals of the music, the composer, the players and the director. When a Spike Jones score calls for a C# pistol shot, we really should find a C# pistol but do we really need to find a period revolver? Btw, is that Lee Santana playing percussion? Sean On Mar 23, 2008, at 9:34 AM, igor . wrote: not HIP enough ! Savall plays an early renaissance bow _ Guitarist using Dunlop capo_ Karamazov playing Vihuela _ what a circus p.s. more ValeryThomas please -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
Canaries? very entertaining - I love the sound of the zynk. The players look so funny when they play *grin* Thank you for directing us to this video. Best wishes Thomas - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 3:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov as a circus musician http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtnSb3aJz0o RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
They say Martin y Coll was born around 1670 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
The bearded percussionist is Pedro Estevan. On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:02 AM, Sean Smith wrote: Btw, is that Lee Santana playing percussion? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
On 23/03/2008, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bearded percussionist is Pedro Estevan. I thought it was Papa Smurf..? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
luckily , there are hundreds of youtube performances by Kidneycutter and Valery to enjoy . I hope they will post more ! SavallCo are not as good ( for me , of course ) as old good Val,ShoskesSchall . -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
On Mar 23, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Sean Smith wrote: I'll judge the performance to whether it atchieves the goals of the music, the composer, the players and the director. That's a lot of goals! Not always easy to reconcile. Plus we have to add into the mix the caprices of the audience. I can choose to be entertained. Or I can demand more HIP, and dismiss the whole thing as a circus. (Is that logical?) Or I can get gossippy, and point out that EK (looking very seventies in this video, don't you think?) is not playing the vihuela but rather an archlute (which we all know is the dreaded single-strung variety), and also wonder where the capo is. When a Spike Jones score calls for a C# pistol shot, we really should find a C# pistol but do we really need to find a period revolver? Not entirely out of the question. Period movies such as Master and Commander or Pirates of the Carribean use some kind of period sound for cannon and musket fire. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
and point out that EK (looking very seventies in this video, don't you think?) is not playing the vihuela but rather an archlute (which we all know is the dreaded single-strung variety) Karamazov does Vihuela David ! Before any judging , you should see the whole clip at least -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
On Mar 23, 2008, at 5:56 PM, igor . wrote: Karamazov does Vihuela David ! Before any judging , you should see the whole clip at least Yes. Sorry, my mistake. Now that I've seen the whole thing though, I'm just curious: what do you mean exactly when you say you want more HIP? Just that thing with the capo? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
On 3/23/2008, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtnSb3aJz0o Nice performance, thanks for the tip! Arto PS The modern capo, the certain igor found, did not bother me at all, well actually I did not even notice... ;-) BTW, my old guitar capo is very useful when my lute student comes to lesson with his a-lute in 415; and I have my 6-courser in g and in 440... Some fret adjustments are still needed, though... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
what do you mean exactly when you say you want more HIP? Just that thing with the capo? no David : check my earlier messsage ! why do i have to remind you all the time to read and see well ? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
dear mr. giuliani professional lutenist should have more different sized lutes ( guitars ) instead of cheap bluegrass capo ! orlearn to transpose ( maybe ) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
On Mar 23, 2008, at 6:47 PM, igor . wrote: no David : check my earlier messsage ! why do i have to remind you all the time to read and see well ? Okay, okay, I promise to watch everything all the way to the end in future. My bad. But I'm still curious. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me...? Was there never a time when vihuela and archlute existed together? Personally I would have used a Shubb capo: those elastic ones are harmful to the instrument. But more seriously, did they never use capo's in the old days? Assuming they did (and how can anyone prove they didn't?), what difference does it make to the music what kind of capo he used? Renaissance bow? Not entirely unthinkable for a viol player back in the day to use an old-fashioned bow once in a while. Inadvisable, if it really does make a difference to the music perhaps, but not necessarily unHIP. Now if he had been using a modern bow, I would agree that's definitely unHIP. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Where can I find this recording? Monk was anything but sloppy. His music was precise and exacting as any will discover on attempting to play it. And oh how he swung! Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:21 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov There are some out there who think Monk was a sloppy player. Karamazov is also a Monk fan (as I am, as well), and, guess what- he recorded a few Monk tunes on a small THEORBO (single-strung). Very well done. RT - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 4:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Is there somebody out there who thinks Thelonius Monk was incompetent?! FYI Monk was a master stride pianist among other things. Stride piano is one the most challenging jazz styles. If you think Monk was incompetent, I challenge you to play a couple of choruses of Trinkle Tinkle. Then we'll talk. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov No, no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to insult you, Ah, but it's you who misunderstands me. I didn't think you were trying to insult me, or commenting about me. I was just pointing out that self-expression without competence isn't terribly rewarding, at least for anyone other than the self-expresser. I agree with that. With a BIG PROVISO- self-expression without competence is JUST NOT POSSIBLE, at least has not been observed in the wild (and don't try to invoke Th. Monk). And Karamazov is supremely competent: his bizarre antics are absolutely meaningful and justified musically. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Where can I find this recording? It is unreleased. RT Monk was anything but sloppy. His music was precise and exacting as any will discover on attempting to play it. And oh how he swung! Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:21 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov There are some out there who think Monk was a sloppy player. Karamazov is also a Monk fan (as I am, as well), and, guess what- he recorded a few Monk tunes on a small THEORBO (single-strung). Very well done. RT - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 4:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Is there somebody out there who thinks Thelonius Monk was incompetent?! FYI Monk was a master stride pianist among other things. Stride piano is one the most challenging jazz styles. If you think Monk was incompetent, I challenge you to play a couple of choruses of Trinkle Tinkle. Then we'll talk. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov No, no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to insult you, Ah, but it's you who misunderstands me. I didn't think you were trying to insult me, or commenting about me. I was just pointing out that self-expression without competence isn't terribly rewarding, at least for anyone other than the self-expresser. I agree with that. With a BIG PROVISO- self-expression without competence is JUST NOT POSSIBLE, at least has not been observed in the wild (and don't try to invoke Th. Monk). And Karamazov is supremely competent: his bizarre antics are absolutely meaningful and justified musically. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
On Friday 25 January 2008 07:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] rattled on the keyboard: Roman Turovsky wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y Very good and activating provocation, Roman. You really made the list talk about important and interesting matters. Well done and thanks for that! And then of course my personal opinions (aren't opinions always personal?). Two views, a) about what I hear, b) about what I see: a) The musical performance: I think K plays the piece in a very guitaristic (in the 20th century sense) way, vertically, not horizontally More often than the melodies he is playing the chords. This reminds me remotely the way Glenn Gould played some of Bach's polyphony as impressionistic chord progressions. I guess K has very good technique? If he really has, I just wonder why he chooses to play the melodies (well, those fragments in between his chords) not legato, but most often portato. To my ears his melodies (the fragments) also often lack direction and shape. Some notes are actually quite crude and in some notes the sound is nearly absent. b) The video: To my taste the video is a horrible mixture of spooky B-class movie and a coffee advertisement in TV. I can see that they have tried to be deep and profound. But to me they have only achieved a parody of profoundness; I laughed when seeing the video first time. Sorry! All the best, Arto Haha a down to earth analysis. I think it fits nicely with the sting interpretation of dowland of what I saw on youtube. Suppose K. had played in a way that everybody on this list would have said 'Wow, super historical correct and played so nice'. Wouldn't that be very strange? It reminds me somehow of these horrible reproductions some people have on the wall of a crying child. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Is there somebody out there who thinks Thelonius Monk was incompetent?! FYI Monk was a master stride pianist among other things. Stride piano is one the most challenging jazz styles. If you think Monk was incompetent, I challenge you to play a couple of choruses of Trinkle Tinkle. Then we'll talk. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov No, no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to insult you, Ah, but it's you who misunderstands me. I didn't think you were trying to insult me, or commenting about me. I was just pointing out that self-expression without competence isn't terribly rewarding, at least for anyone other than the self-expresser. I agree with that. With a BIG PROVISO- self-expression without competence is JUST NOT POSSIBLE, at least has not been observed in the wild (and don't try to invoke Th. Monk). And Karamazov is supremely competent: his bizarre antics are absolutely meaningful and justified musically. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Late to the party, sorry.. Nice piece. What a cool piece. What a really cool piece. Cadence probably not by Dowland, so OK to write your own. Look at the wandering excursions in the Holmes mss. for examples. Stylistcally eccentric, but, most recordings of ren music do not display a thorough knowledge of ren ornamentation. The close miking (I'm guessing that's why it is s squeaky) makes it sound stranger than it is. Synch issues--these are often codec issues with youtube. Sometimes it's milli, but sometimes just vanilli. I have had many times to upload videos many time to get them in sych, add noise during the credits, etc. Chris's comments about major/minor are both insightful and right on the mark, though a carefull examination of German prints and mss reveals that occasional minor is found contemporaneous, are almost contemporaneous, with French sources. Medial minor of course dates to Spinaccino. The pervasive and persuasive appearance of signed minor cadences in good sources does seem to indicate a French origin, but it may be that the late renaissance sources may eventually yield more of a balance of German pieces, particularly in the tenorlieder rep., much of which is still unknown. The ending is maybe out of place in Dowland, but to be fair not nearly as as strange as the worst of the Dowland sources, some of which leave out huge amounts of material. Some 16th c.copyists could not bear the end of Sempre Dowland; Sempre Dolens, so they changed it. Probably the same folks that sawed the end off the Baffo harpsichord. The harshness of the sound seems strange, but perhaps we cultivate a sweeter sound than is historical. The bridge squatters must have had a sound with a frisson of eau de rommelpot. Character! Lest I gain any credibility at all from the above , It is interesting to posit an alternative universe in which this performance was substituted for La Rossignol in the PBS series Elizabeth R in 1971. W00t! dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
-Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:00 AM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Cadence probably not by Dowland, so OK to write your own. Any evidence? Look at the wandering excursions in the Holmes mss. for examples. Please elaborate. Most musicologists still believe that the Holmes manuscripts are the most important sources for Dowland's (and Holborne's and Cutting's and Johnson's ...) music. Rainer adS CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER *** The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Düsseldorf Handelsregister Düsseldorf HRB 22487 Geschäftsführer: Ryoichi Shikama Amtsgericht Düsseldorf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Phew. What a discussion. I was away for a few days and just finished digging through my inbox. Forlorn hope has been my favourite for decades and is still in my top ten not necessarily only among lute music. What a piece! In my humble opinion, Edin's interpretation is as well interesting as fascinating as, alas, disgusting. I like his rather fast tempo which is about what I am heading for. I very much like his nuances, e.g. a portato bass over very light, hushed treble figurations. Brilliant! Too much lute music is played in an overly introverted manner which is often dull and boring. But I utterly dislike the jarring sounds at 1:27 ff. WTF is this good for? And why does he change to a comparatively sweet tone a few bars later? The music does not call for this, why these effects? Smattering! The minor ending is abominable, it almost destroys the piece, although I understand what Roman says, I just cannot follow. I do not mind the silly video. I did not like Genesis' (or rather anybody's) stage show although I still love their music. The video is not important. I'd extremely like to hear a sensitive musician like Edin play without what are for me cheap effects. One can sense great things hidden under silly shenanigans. g On Jan 24, 2008 12:57 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Dear Donatella and the List, yeah! Just as you describe! And perhaps also some green (Marsian?) stuff pouring underneath, trying to eat K's lute. And K. is fighting back by the disharmonies of the piece. And at the end winning the Alien stuff by the unexpected minor third at the final... [green stuff escaping back to Mars]. Arto On 1/25/2008, Donatella Galletti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I expected Count Dracula to pop out from a barrel, that would have been great... and the candles, wow, the candles.. Donatella - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 7:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Roman Turovsky wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y Very good and activating provocation, Roman. You really made the list talk about important and interesting matters. Well done and thanks for that! And then of course my personal opinions (aren't opinions always personal?). Two views, a) about what I hear, b) about what I see: a) The musical performance: I think K plays the piece in a very guitaristic (in the 20th century sense) way, vertically, not horizontally More often than the melodies he is playing the chords. This reminds me remotely the way Glenn Gould played some of Bach's polyphony as impressionistic chord progressions. I guess K has very good technique? If he really has, I just wonder why he chooses to play the melodies (well, those fragments in between his chords) not legato, but most often portato. To my ears his melodies (the fragments) also often lack direction and shape. Some notes are actually quite crude and in some notes the sound is nearly absent. b) The video: To my taste the video is a horrible mixture of spooky B-class movie and a coffee advertisement in TV. I can see that they have tried to be deep and profound. But to me they have only achieved a parody of profoundness; I laughed when seeing the video first time. Sorry! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
I mentioned to my wife that Edin Karamazov had become a subject of discussion on the lute list. (She and I were introduced to the Labyrinth CD/DVD by the elder ladies of our consort, and she liked the Can she excuse my wrongs segment and Edin's playing so much she asked for the set for Christmas.) Before I could say what was going on, she said, Let me guess: He cut off his hair, and now he can't play anymore. I thought that was worth sharing... ray On Jan 24, 2008 12:57 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Paul Keiffer wrote... All this talk about the last chord: yes i understand it is written major and its what dowland said, but i dont think it is that big a deal when you take the interpretation as a whole. Edin's performance was remarkably well crafted, and imo he brought out the structure of the piece better than anyone ive heard, with a remarkable understanding of the compositional process and meaning. Here, here I agree entirely. 'Forlorn Hope' is the name given to a strategic position in 'no-mans-land', well ahead of the battle-line where soldiers would prefer not to be. A place where there is little hope of re-enforcements arriving. Maybe this piece is befitting a minor-key throughout, to express being forlorn. Then, finally resolving to a major-chord as a sign of hope. If Edin prefers to keep it minor, then so be it. The soldiers shouted, 'Send reinforcements. We're going to advance' Heard as,'Send three dollars, four-cents. We're going to a dance'! Was that ever resolved? Best Wishes Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
On Jan 25, 2008, at 3:12 AM, Taco Walstra wrote: On Friday 25 January 2008 07:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] rattled on the keyboard: a) The musical performance: I think K plays the piece in a very guitaristic (in the 20th century sense) way, vertically, not horizontally More often than the melodies he is playing the chords. This reminds me remotely the way Glenn Gould played some of Bach's polyphony as impressionistic chord progressions. But Gould created something perhaps a bit more convincing? http://youtube.com/watch?v=AvHbjg7dXbQ (be patient with the talking, he does play 2 full length works) DS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Friday 25 January 2008 14:47, Stewart McCoy rattled on the keyboard: Dear All, I have been told, I hope reliably, that, if, at the time of Dowland, you wanted to attack an army of soldiers armed with muskets, you would first send a small group of soldiers ahead to draw their fire. Before the enemy could reload, the rest of your army attacked them. Needless to say, the men in that small group stood little chance of surviving. They were known as the Forlorn Hope. It comes from the Dutch verloren hoop, meaning lost troop, but translates conveniently into English, because those soldiers had a forlorn hope of surviving. This is from wikipedia and I'm not sure if it's correct. The dutch word 'hoop' means 'hope' but can also mean a pile of something. So it's a double meaning. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is an emphatic statement, and a fitting climax to an extraordinary piece of music. To play a wrong note deliberately in the last chord, not only discredits the composer, it also insults the listener. In terms of musical logic, it is like a lawyer strongly arguing his case, and then undermining his own argument by supporting the opposite point of view in his final sentence. In artistic terms, it is like an artist painting a wonderful landscape for you, and then throwing a bottle of ink at it just before he hands it over. If the role of the musician is to create cynicism and anarchy, it is fair game to destroy the work of others. If not, he should show some humility and respect for the composer and for the audience, and stick to the script. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. I disagree, emphatically. Karamazov, by avoiding the Picardy 3rd theology, demontrates that the Hope is not attainable. A very powerful statement, with which one doesn't have to agree, but it is powerful nonetheless. And I am particularly impressed that he had guts and know-how to do that. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
I had no idea most musicologists believed that. Holmes' cadential doodlings are visible on the unused pages (well, slightly used, I guess). Souping up Dowland was a cottage industry of sorts. The mss are remarkable well preserved, no doubt due to the frosty peat bog temperature of CUL. Other than the drive by holograph of Farewell Fancy, the source is not a great source in that it shows signs, like many lute books, of rewriting the material with formula ornaments, for which one can reconstruct a missing tutor similar to Italian sources. Dowland's holograph provides, ironically, the maximum contrast with the Holmes mss. Dowland's Lachrimae, almost always recorded and performed with the mistake in the second bar, is the classic example of lutebook acculturation. Dowland's Piper's Galliard, from Francisque, is the classic missing source. Dowland's LoST is the best source, as it contains the counterpoint keys to unlock the other sources. dt The most interestingAt 02:20 AM 1/25/2008, you wrote: -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:00 AM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Cadence probably not by Dowland, so OK to write your own. Any evidence? Look at the wandering excursions in the Holmes mss. for examples. Please elaborate. Most musicologists still believe that the Holmes manuscripts are the most important sources for Dowland's (and Holborne's and Cutting's and Johnson's ...) music. Rainer adS CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER *** The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Düsseldorf Handelsregister Düsseldorf HRB 22487 Geschäftsführer: Ryoichi Shikama Amtsgericht Düsseldorf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Dear Roman, Perhaps we should consider what John Dowland thought about people re-writing his music. He made his view very clear in the introduction to his _First Booke of Songs_ (London, 1597). Hoppy Smith routinely rewrites what he plays, A LOT MORE that a single note that Edin changed. Best wishes, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
There are some out there who think Monk was a sloppy player. Karamazov is also a Monk fan (as I am, as well), and, guess what- he recorded a few Monk tunes on a small THEORBO (single-strung). Very well done. RT - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 4:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov Is there somebody out there who thinks Thelonius Monk was incompetent?! FYI Monk was a master stride pianist among other things. Stride piano is one the most challenging jazz styles. If you think Monk was incompetent, I challenge you to play a couple of choruses of Trinkle Tinkle. Then we'll talk. Gary - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov No, no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to insult you, Ah, but it's you who misunderstands me. I didn't think you were trying to insult me, or commenting about me. I was just pointing out that self-expression without competence isn't terribly rewarding, at least for anyone other than the self-expresser. I agree with that. With a BIG PROVISO- self-expression without competence is JUST NOT POSSIBLE, at least has not been observed in the wild (and don't try to invoke Th. Monk). And Karamazov is supremely competent: his bizarre antics are absolutely meaningful and justified musically. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
I expected Count Dracula to pop out from a barrel, that would have been great... and the candles, wow, the candles.. Donatella - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 7:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Roman Turovsky wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y Very good and activating provocation, Roman. You really made the list talk about important and interesting matters. Well done and thanks for that! And then of course my personal opinions (aren't opinions always personal?). Two views, a) about what I hear, b) about what I see: a) The musical performance: I think K plays the piece in a very guitaristic (in the 20th century sense) way, vertically, not horizontally More often than the melodies he is playing the chords. This reminds me remotely the way Glenn Gould played some of Bach's polyphony as impressionistic chord progressions. I guess K has very good technique? If he really has, I just wonder why he chooses to play the melodies (well, those fragments in between his chords) not legato, but most often portato. To my ears his melodies (the fragments) also often lack direction and shape. Some notes are actually quite crude and in some notes the sound is nearly absent. b) The video: To my taste the video is a horrible mixture of spooky B-class movie and a coffee advertisement in TV. I can see that they have tried to be deep and profound. But to me they have only achieved a parody of profoundness; I laughed when seeing the video first time. Sorry! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Jan 25, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I enjoyed much of Karamazov's performance, not least the way he kept the rhythm steady, unlike so many self-indulgent players today who constantly play around with the tactus... ...It is an emphatic statement, and a fitting climax to an extraordinary piece of music. To play a wrong note deliberately in the last chord, not only discredits the composer, it also insults the listener. In terms of musical logic, it is like a lawyer strongly arguing his case, and then undermining his own argument by supporting the opposite point of view in his final sentence. In artistic terms, it is like an artist painting a wonderful landscape for you, and then throwing a bottle of ink at it just before he hands it over. If the role of the musician is to create cynicism and anarchy, it is fair game to destroy the work of others. If not, he should show some humility and respect for the composer and for the audience, and stick to the script. Sticking to the script is most admirable, as is cultivating a sense of humility and respect for the composer. Indeed you may be sure that these things would certainly have been endorsed by the composer himself, especially the latter! ;-) But as long as we're using language to aid our logic, let me add that all work and no play make Jack a dull boy. I have generally observed that creative people are self-indulgent. That's how they work. And without them what would we have? Lifeless classical models. Masterpieces of dead polyphony. I didn't particularly like some of the more lurid aspects of EK's performance of Forlorn Hope, but I admire the spirit in which he did it. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sticking to the script is most admirable, as is cultivating a sense of humility and respect for the composer. Indeed you may be sure that these things would certainly have been endorsed by the composer himself, especially the latter! ;-) But as long as we're using language to aid our logic, let me add that all work and no play make Jack a dull boy. I have generally observed that creative people are self-indulgent. That's how they work. And without them what would we have? Tony Rooley. RT __ D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution! http://www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Great perfirmance indeed! Very evocative and affektiert. Don't know if the archlute (thankfully double coursed) is something Dowland would have played on, but it sounded great. Short nails on RH. Combination of TI - TO. Lots of changes of RH position and holding of the lute, which makes the clip dramatic, but also gives different sound colours and livens it up. Powerful playing. One of the top music-YTs I've seen so far cineastically (and perhaps even soundwise - at least its in sync!). Karamazov proves himself here after all that undeserved critisism G. PS. So Michael wasn't so far of with his cello-support anyway eh? - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov... http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
I find it noisy and gimmicky; a lot of look-at-me that distracts from the flow of a masterpiece. But that's a matter of taste, I suppose, as is tolerance for the slop whenever he plays sixteenth notes. But if he doesn't like the way Dowland ended the piece, he should play another piece instead of dramatically substituting a minor chord for the major one Dowland wrote. I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. On Jan 24, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
You are of course aware that the sound is playback and probably not played on the instrument used in the video. The first note is an Eb, so the instrument is in Eb or he has transposed the piece. Also the images are almost never in sync with the music. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 19:30 An: Lutelist; Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Great perfirmance indeed! Very evocative and affektiert. Don't know if the archlute (thankfully double coursed) is something Dowland would have played on, but it sounded great. Short nails on RH. Combination of TI - TO. Lots of changes of RH position and holding of the lute, which makes the clip dramatic, but also gives different sound colours and livens it up. Powerful playing. One of the top music-YTs I've seen so far cineastically (and perhaps even soundwise - at least its in sync!). Karamazov proves himself here after all that undeserved critisism G. PS. So Michael wasn't so far of with his cello-support anyway eh? - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov... http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
On Jan 24, 2008, at 1:48 PM, howard posner wrote: I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. God forbid that we should Tamper with it! ;-) Is Dowland really as etched in stone as all that? I have a number of renditions of Forlorn Hope on CD: rather bland sounding because they're played oh- so-correctly. Anyway, that aside, name one composer whose music should sound exactly the same every time it's played. Variety is the spice of life, even in the oh-so-purist lute world, right? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Actually I was impressed by the effort put into the production of the video. Karamazov is an impressing player but - 'nuff said - this video is taken from the Sting-DVD and there ways to many show elements within it for my taste. I like the Duo performing Police and Sting songs though - which is contained as bonus material on the DVD (I'm sure one can find them on youtube) we directly compared it to O'Dette's and Lindberg's version of th esame piece and guess who won? Thomas - Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... I find it noisy and gimmicky; a lot of look-at-me that distracts from the flow of a masterpiece. But that's a matter of taste, I suppose, as is tolerance for the slop whenever he plays sixteenth notes. But if he doesn't like the way Dowland ended the piece, he should play another piece instead of dramatically substituting a minor chord for the major one Dowland wrote. I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. On Jan 24, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Yeah Mark, on the second scrutinous look after posting I noticed that. But when you shut your eyes and just listen to the soundtrack, you get a feeling that K tries to bring across a bit of the drama and power of this top 10 Dowland piece. For that I salute him. Taking the liberty to substitute the last chord is of course questionable in spite of the drama. G. - Original Message - From: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'G. Crona' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:00 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... You are of course aware that the sound is playback and probably not played on the instrument used in the video. The first note is an Eb, so the instrument is in Eb or he has transposed the piece. Also the images are almost never in sync with the music. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 19:30 An: Lutelist; Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Great perfirmance indeed! Very evocative and affektiert. Don't know if the archlute (thankfully double coursed) is something Dowland would have played on, but it sounded great. Short nails on RH. Combination of TI - TO. Lots of changes of RH position and holding of the lute, which makes the clip dramatic, but also gives different sound colours and livens it up. Powerful playing. One of the top music-YTs I've seen so far cineastically (and perhaps even soundwise - at least its in sync!). Karamazov proves himself here after all that undeserved critisism G. PS. So Michael wasn't so far of with his cello-support anyway eh? - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov... http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
I suppose playing only two notes of the last chord (and getting one of them wrong) is a tremendouser sin than just changing one of the notes of the last chord, eh? And yet, considering the setting (and the title of the music) who is to say? I can't speak for the manuscript that Forlorn Hope is found in, nor the accuracy of transcription of M. Veylit's PDF collection, but I found enough errors in both mss and printed tab (period and modern) to be unable to stand on an absolute like this. Wrong letters, misplacement by a string, all sorts of things. Whence the provenance of this sin to change a note? ray On Jan 24, 2008 1:48 PM, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. But if he doesn't like the way Dowland ended the piece, he should play another piece instead of dramatically substituting a minor chord for the major one Dowland wrote. I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. .. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Edin was just moving his hands in sync with Nigel North soundtrack, yeah, that's right. No, actually it was overdubbed on a synthetiser! Yeah, that's right. MArk, you remind me of a medieval English poem that goes something like (not verbatim, after 20 or so years): Whoever after crappinge not wipeth his arse clean On his breeches it will seene. RT - Original Message - From: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Yeah Mark, on the second scrutinous look after posting I noticed that. But when you shut your eyes and just listen to the soundtrack, you get a feeling that K tries to bring across a bit of the drama and power of this top 10 Dowland piece. For that I salute him. Taking the liberty to substitute the last chord is of course questionable in spite of the drama. G. - Original Message - From: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'G. Crona' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:00 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... You are of course aware that the sound is playback and probably not played on the instrument used in the video. The first note is an Eb, so the instrument is in Eb or he has transposed the piece. Also the images are almost never in sync with the music. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 19:30 An: Lutelist; Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Great perfirmance indeed! Very evocative and affektiert. Don't know if the archlute (thankfully double coursed) is something Dowland would have played on, but it sounded great. Short nails on RH. Combination of TI - TO. Lots of changes of RH position and holding of the lute, which makes the clip dramatic, but also gives different sound colours and livens it up. Powerful playing. One of the top music-YTs I've seen so far cineastically (and perhaps even soundwise - at least its in sync!). Karamazov proves himself here after all that undeserved critisism G. PS. So Michael wasn't so far of with his cello-support anyway eh? - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov... http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Are you addressing moi, David? Your remarks follow mine, but they don't have much to do with them. On Jan 24, 2008, at 11:05 AM, David Rastall wrote: I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. God forbid that we should Tamper with it! ;-) Is Dowland really as etched in stone as all that? I have a number of renditions of Forlorn Hope on CD: rather bland sounding because they're played oh- so-correctly. Or because it's a fiendishly difficult piece. Karamazov's choppiness may be a way to get around the difficulty by picking up his left-hand fingers early to have them ready for the next contorted position, but it wreaks havoc with the polyphonic lines. Anyway, that aside, name one composer whose music should sound exactly the same every time it's played. Well, Conlan Nancarrow, since you asked, but that's beside the point. Nobody is suggesting that Dowland's music, or Beethoven's, should sound exactly the same every time it's played, but if some conductor rewrote the end of Beethoven's Fifth so that it ends in C minor instead of C major, he'd get laughed out of the business for thinking he knows better than Beethoven how the music should go, and it would have nothing to do with HIP purism. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
On Jan 24, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Ray Brohinsky wrote: I suppose playing only two notes of the last chord (and getting one of them wrong) I'm not following this reference. It sounds like you're describing my playing, but I don't think you've ever heard me. is a tremendouser sin than just changing one of the notes of the last chord, eh? It's a change in the fundamental character of the ending. And yet, considering the setting (and the title of the music) who is to say? I can't speak for the manuscript that Forlorn Hope is found in, nor the accuracy of transcription of M. Veylit's PDF collection, but I found enough errors in both mss and printed tab (period and modern) to be unable to stand on an absolute like this. Wrong letters, misplacement by a string, all sorts of things. There is one published source (Mertel's Hortus Musicalus Novus) and one manuscript source in the Cambridge Library. Both end in major. All of Dowland's minor-mode fantasies end in major. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Hi Roman, You seem to be back in your old ways. Trying to cover up facts that are not so comfortable for your edifying viewpoint. The video is not live, the first note is Eb and the video is out of sync. These may be unbearable facts for you, but thats life. But thanks again for the link, it is always good to have a benchmark for how not to do something Stay Clean Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 20:23 An: G. Crona; Lute; 'Lutelist' Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Edin was just moving his hands in sync with Nigel North soundtrack, yeah, that's right. No, actually it was overdubbed on a synthetiser! Yeah, that's right. MArk, you remind me of a medieval English poem that goes something like (not verbatim, after 20 or so years): Whoever after crappinge not wipeth his arse clean On his breeches it will seene. RT - Original Message - From: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Yeah Mark, on the second scrutinous look after posting I noticed that. But when you shut your eyes and just listen to the soundtrack, you get a feeling that K tries to bring across a bit of the drama and power of this top 10 Dowland piece. For that I salute him. Taking the liberty to substitute the last chord is of course questionable in spite of the drama. G. - Original Message - From: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'G. Crona' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:00 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... You are of course aware that the sound is playback and probably not played on the instrument used in the video. The first note is an Eb, so the instrument is in Eb or he has transposed the piece. Also the images are almost never in sync with the music. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 19:30 An: Lutelist; Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Great perfirmance indeed! Very evocative and affektiert. Don't know if the archlute (thankfully double coursed) is something Dowland would have played on, but it sounded great. Short nails on RH. Combination of TI - TO. Lots of changes of RH position and holding of the lute, which makes the clip dramatic, but also gives different sound colours and livens it up. Powerful playing. One of the top music-YTs I've seen so far cineastically (and perhaps even soundwise - at least its in sync!). Karamazov proves himself here after all that undeserved critisism G. PS. So Michael wasn't so far of with his cello-support anyway eh? - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov... http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Howard, --- howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one published source (Mertel's Hortus Musicalus Novus) and one manuscript source in the Cambridge Library. Both end in major. All of Dowland's minor-mode fantasies end in major. ..as is standard practice in the Renaissance. It was a rule that all minor pieces end with a major third or tierce de picardie (Picardy Third) when there was a third present at the final clausula vera (some pieces, such as bicinia, might have no third at all). The major third might not even be written in, but was expected to be supplied via ficta. Even in Gesualdo's experimentally chromatic madrigals, not one ends with a minor chord. The presence of a major chord at the end of minor pieces persisted as a general compositional rule in most places throughout the baroque and beyond. However, the French in the baroque did NOT write the major chord at the end of their minor-key pieces and a minor chord was in fact intended. This eventually spread beyond France until it became standard practice all over the place to end minor pieces with a minor chord while the Picardy Third, occasionally still in use, turned into a seldom-heard special effect. How are we to know that regional stylistic practices utilizing a final minor chord didn't pop up in the later renaissance (i.e. Dowland's time)? In other words, is it possible that some late-ren chap playing Forelorn Hope might have bucked the majority trend and felt justified to play a last minor chord instead of the printed major one because that's the way we do things here.? Chris Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Well said, Enzo. RT - Original Message - From: Dante Ferrara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov My, my. We are an overheated lot tonight! Yes, the final chord sounds a bit strange and out of place, but if that's how Edin wants to play it, well fine by me. I wouldn't, he would. As none of us has ever met Dowland, we'll never know whether he thwacked his strings harshly near the bridge for effect or gently picked the strings near the neck joint for a different effect. And who are we to say that everything should be played straight, identical in attack, tone quality and the rest? Reading between the lines, I reckon there are some lutenists who think every lute tune between 1500 and 1700 was played without a shred of humour or personality. Imagine two hundred years of a Europe-ful of lutenists, none daring to stray from the written page. Come on, lighten up! Let me diffuse the tension by offering my short videos... http://www.youtube.com/DanteFerrara DF To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution! http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
On Jan 24, 2008, at 2:32 PM, howard posner wrote: Are you addressing moi, David? Your remarks follow mine, but they don't have much to do with them. Oh, sorry, I thought they pertinent as well as impertinent. At least they were intended to be anyway. ;-) ...Karamazov's choppiness may be a way to get around the difficulty by picking up his left-hand fingers early to have them ready for the next contorted position, but it wreaks havoc with the polyphonic lines. Whose choppiness? You mean that guy we were not talking about? ;-) ;-) ...if some conductor rewrote the end of Beethoven's Fifth so that it ends in C minor instead of C major, he'd get laughed out of the business for thinking he knows better than Beethoven how the music should go, and it would have nothing to do with HIP purism. No he wouldn't. You know how conductors tamper with the pieces they conduct. I don't know much about conducting the end of the 5th, but HIP purism has wrought havoc among conductors arguing about the beginning of it, Anyway, the last movement ends on a single note. Actually, it might not sound bad at all as a minor third... David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
From: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Roman, You seem to be back in your old ways. Trying to cover up facts that are not so comfortable for your edifying viewpoint. The video is not live, the first note is Eb and the video is out of sync. So is my own video on Youtube. What does that tell you? But thanks again for the link, it is always good to have a benchmark for how not to do something Stay Clean Mark That's why we keep 10' poles, just in case, in the US of A. RT -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 20:23 An: G. Crona; Lute; 'Lutelist' Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Edin was just moving his hands in sync with Nigel North soundtrack, yeah, that's right. No, actually it was overdubbed on a synthetiser! Yeah, that's right. MArk, you remind me of a medieval English poem that goes something like (not verbatim, after 20 or so years): Whoever after crappinge not wipeth his arse clean On his breeches it will seene. RT - Original Message - From: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Yeah Mark, on the second scrutinous look after posting I noticed that. But when you shut your eyes and just listen to the soundtrack, you get a feeling that K tries to bring across a bit of the drama and power of this top 10 Dowland piece. For that I salute him. Taking the liberty to substitute the last chord is of course questionable in spite of the drama. G. - Original Message - From: Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'G. Crona' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Roman Turovsky' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:00 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... You are of course aware that the sound is playback and probably not played on the instrument used in the video. The first note is an Eb, so the instrument is in Eb or he has transposed the piece. Also the images are almost never in sync with the music. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 19:30 An: Lutelist; Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov... Great perfirmance indeed! Very evocative and affektiert. Don't know if the archlute (thankfully double coursed) is something Dowland would have played on, but it sounded great. Short nails on RH. Combination of TI - TO. Lots of changes of RH position and holding of the lute, which makes the clip dramatic, but also gives different sound colours and livens it up. Powerful playing. One of the top music-YTs I've seen so far cineastically (and perhaps even soundwise - at least its in sync!). Karamazov proves himself here after all that undeserved critisism G. PS. So Michael wasn't so far of with his cello-support anyway eh? - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamazov... http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Hi Dante, You are absolutely right, I personally have no problem with him changing the last chord, I also would not do it, but if he wants to why not. There is probably nothing more un-HIP than not daring to stray from the written page. Playing exactly what is written is more a romantic or modern classical point of view. It would still be interesting to know if the piece was transposed or playing on an Eb lute. The video is playback and not just because it is out of sync. I personally find this kind of classical playback video mostly pretty unconvincing. But if there is an audience for it out there All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Dante Ferrara [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2008 21:34 An: Lutelist Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Karamazov My, my. We are an overheated lot tonight! Yes, the final chord sounds a bit strange and out of place, but if that's how Edin wants to play it, well fine by me. I wouldn't, he would. As none of us has ever met Dowland, we'll never know whether he thwacked his strings harshly near the bridge for effect or gently picked the strings near the neck joint for a different effect. And who are we to say that everything should be played straight, identical in attack, tone quality and the rest? Reading between the lines, I reckon there are some lutenists who think every lute tune between 1500 and 1700 was played without a shred of humour or personality. Imagine two hundred years of a Europe-ful of lutenists, none daring to stray from the written page. Come on, lighten up! Let me diffuse the tension by offering my short videos... http://www.youtube.com/DanteFerrara DF To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Jan 24, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Dante Ferrara wrote: My, my. We are an overheated lot tonight! Not at all. It's midday here, and since it's the middle of one of those notoriously brutal Los Angeles winters, I'm hardly overheated. As none of us has ever met Dowland, we'll never know whether he thwacked his strings harshly near the bridge for effect or gently picked the strings near the neck joint for a different effect. And who are we to say that everything should be played straight, identical in attack, tone quality and the rest? No one here has ever said anything of the sort. Reading between the lines, Perhaps best not to, since you wind up arguing over things no one has said I reckon there are some lutenists who think every lute tune between 1500 and 1700 was played without a shred of humour or personality. Just my personal view, but I don't think Forlorne Hope should be funny. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Mark Wheeler wrote: You are absolutely right, I personally have no problem with him changing the last chord, I also would not do it Indeed... but if he wants to why not. Here's one reason why not: suppose I started this post this way: Mark Wheeler wrote: You are absolutely right, I personally have a problem with him changing the last chord, I also would not do it I've changed one word and completely misrepresented what you said. I'm lying, and committing an act of gross disrespect toward you. Similarly, if I tell you that I'm playing Dowland's music and make arbitrary changes (by which I mean deliberately rewrite the actual notes) in that music, I'm also lying, and showing a gross lack of respect toward Dowland, and if you aren't already familiar with the Big D, you may make judgments about Dowland's music that are based on those arbitrary changes. If you hear a minor chord at the end of Forlorne Hope you may think Dowland was incompetent. Or you might really like the idea of a renaissance composer who ends pieces with minor chords, and buy every Dowland recording you can find, only to be so crushed with disappointment at the uniformly major endings you hear that you commit suicide by hanging yourself with an old theorbo string. So the point is that what the hell, it's all about self-expression is not the be-all and end-all of musicianship unless you're playing the blues. There are other considerations. It doesn't mean the page is always sacrosanct, though and my view of it is that Forlorne Hope is. I suppose reasonable minds can differ about whether sticking a minor chord on the end of Forlorne Hope is significant enough to worry about (of course, if it's not significant, why do it?). Dowland would have thought it musically illiterate, just as Mozart would have been appalled if someone had rewritten his music to insert parallel fifths. I found it jarring and deflatingly anticlimactic. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
