[LUTE] Re: String tensions?
Good morning, lute list. I am in the early stages of a research/writing project and it keeps circling back around to Dowland's Lachrimae--the song as well as the dances. I'm pulling a bibliography together and want to get my hands on several items in The Lute Society (UK) Journal. Unfortunately, my local university library let its subscription/membership lag a few years ago and it does not hold these items. I'm pursuing Interlibrary Loan avenues, but figure it might take a while for me to get the articles--and I am under a bit of time crunch to get some writing started, if not done. So, while I am waiting for my ILL copies to arrive, I thought I might appeal for some assistance. Would it be possible for someone to share (digitally) a copy of David Pinto's 2 articles on Dowland's Lachrimae--Dowland's True Tears, Vol. 42 (2002) and Dowland's Tears, Vol. 37 (1997). I'm at the point of just ordering the volumes directly from the Society, but again, my immediate needs are pretty immediate--the sooner I get going on this the quicker I can get my paperwork started. Thanks in advance for any assistance offered. See ya, jeff To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tensions?
Dear Bill Nobody answered, while this is a subject close to the heart of all lute-listers eager to ride their hobby horses! I wrote a little something on the subject of string tension: http://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_p.html Which can be summarised by quoting one of its paragraphs: String tension for lutes The choice of string tension on a lute is dependent on a number of factors, not least of which is personal preference. And also, different materials require different string tensions, and so do different playing techniques. However, a few general remarks that can serve as a guide can be made. Here follows a list of recommended string tensions for the first string of a lute, in relation to its string length: String length Tension of first string 85cm 42N 81cm 41N 77cm 40N 74cm 39N 70cm 38N 66cm 37N 62cm 36N 59cm 35N 56cm 34N 52cm 33N Conventional wisdom has it that the second string should have a tension about 90% of that of the first string. The rest of the strings have a tension again about 90% lower than that of the second string, and octave strings are about 90% lower than that of their fundamentals. But, again, personal preferences might make you decide to change some of these tensions. The historical advice for the first string is of course the much quoted maxim that it should be tuned to just below breaking point. So much for the string tensions of first strings in the above list. The ambiguous phrase 'conventional wisdom' for the tension of other strings is derived from current practise and such universal sources of wisdom as Kuerschner's string calculator. Whatever the historical truth, I think the advice given above is a good starting point to explore the possibilities and preferences you might have. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp. 11c.?
Hi All, Just a comment on the low tension issue. I don't regard 3.0 Kg (well, let's be scientific and call it approx. 30 N) as low tension, so the difference between 2.8 Kg and 3.0 Kg is not such a big deal. When I experimented with using a double top string on a 9c lute (67 cm) I ended up with the low octave of the 9th course going down to about 19N. It was then vital that the upper octave of that course was at a higher tension than the fundamental. I ended up taking the pitch down so that the top string was tuned to e' at modern pitch - even so the individual strings of the first course (Nylgut) were thinner than any string which could have been made in the 17th century, so we have some serious reconsideration of pitch to do. I was plucking the top course about 50mm from the bridge. Another story relates to a 13c swan-neck lute I recently made with an authentically thin soundboard (based on the Schelle MI 46 in Nuremberg). I used what I thought were low tension strings but had to reduce them again, and the sound was much more like a renaissance lute than one usually hears from this type of instrument. I would love to have strung the whole thing in gut, but never got the chance. Incidentally, the thickest string would be only about 1.4mm, so unloaded high-twist gut would be fine. The only problem is the transition between the stopped 8th and the open 9th, but that's a problem the old guys must have had too. I think we are still heavily influenced by the guitar, and the expectations of string feel it generates - and this applies to those who have never played the guitar, because the lute community contains so many who have - and also by the habit of plucking so far from the bridge. At a recent talk by Michael Lowe on lute barring, one very striking aspect of baroque lutes is how light the barring is, compared to that of the late 16th C Venetian/Paduan lutes. Could it be that our string tensions are far too high, especially on baroque lutes? Even on renaissance lutes we may have something of the same issue. No one claims that the bottom string on the 6c lute in the famous ambassadors painting by Holbein is anything other than a gut string (not loaded). But it looks closer to 1.2mm than 1.4mm. Food for thought Best wishes, Martin Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Arto Congratulations on your new 11-course. I am also new to the Baroque lute, but have had my 11c 70 cm Warwick for just over a year, and have had time to gradually change some of my stringing. Unfortunately I just had a double computer failure, and I had lost much of my stored data, but your message has given me a chance to do a little detective work (old bills, etc), and I think I am now sure of the original values, and the changes I have made. In brief : On my 11c Warwick, I now use all gut by Aquila, with Meanes in Aquila Venices, and Basses in Aquila loaded Venices, but the Octaves down from g-7 are also in Aquila Venices. The Octaves are now slightly higher in tension (3.1Kg) than the Basses themselves (2.9Kg). I don't think this is particularly low tension, but nor is it particularly high. However, Venice string types are probably the most flexible, other than Charles Besnainou's spring strings, and in this respect behave similarly to low tension strings. I have not yet reached a stable RH position. It seems to depend on the angle of my fingers to the strings. The flatter they are on to the strings, the further back towards the bridge I seem to go. 11c lutes do seem to have wider spacing than 13c lutes, both between courses and within the course, I might now have chosen a slightly closer spacing between courses as this does add to the stretch of a longish 70cm lute. Now, In more detail : Basses: From the beginning, I used the gut strings Stephen Gottlieb put on my lute, including the loaded Venice Basses for which I had specifically asked him. St G had put them on C-11 up to F-8, but then a Gimped Bass on G-7, and a Venice Bass on A-6. This was because he feared that loaded basses would stop down false; but the result was not as homogenous as I would have liked; so I changed these last also for loaded strings with no serious falseness problem and much improved homogeneity (not because Gimped or Venice strings are bad per se). Meanes: St G had put HT Trebles for Meane 4 and 5, but I changed these to Venice Meanes, again to improve the homogeneity with the Venice loaded Basses, and I predicted (I think correctly) that similar string types would work better together (sympathy). Octaves Diapason tension switch: St G had chosen 2.8Kg HT octaves with 3kg Venice loaded Basses and had strung my lute at 415Hz. I really wanted a diapason nearer 392Hz, so as to have thicker treble strings (at least 0,44, rather than 0.42); but not wanting to throw
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp. 11c.?
Hello Martin
I certainly would not say that 3Kg is low (sorry I am lazy and use
Dan Larson's string calc), but since some others seem to be using over
3.5Kg (and tell me the perceived tension of my stringing is low), it is
not that high either (that was all I meant).
We know that to get the small sound hole sizes for certain bass
courses, we would have to go down to almost 1Kg (unless we adopt
Charles Besnainou's half a strand through the hole theory), so of
course this is all relative, and in those terms, most stringing
mentionned here is high tension.
However, differences in tension should perhaps not be considered
separately from differences in flexibility: a Venice at 3Kg does not
behave like an HT at 3Kg. The flexibilty factor becomes even more
evident if you have ever tried one of Charles Besnainou's spring
strings. Even at what you would call a high tension, with these
strings, it is the player who determines the moment that the string
should be released, and not the string's tension. One could decide to
just continue stretching the string without releasing.
You should be right in saying that the difference between 2.8 and
3Kg is no big deal, except perhaps when we are dealing again with
flexible loaded strings, with these, 0.2kg can be the crucial
difference between the string buzzing or not.
Indeed, that is exactly what happened when I went down from 415HZ to
407Hz, while most lutenists predicted that I should be able to lower
them even to 392Hz (they were reasoning in terms of HT strings). Loaded
strings are sort of like extremely low tension HT strings.
Now raising the Octave up to the original value of the loaded strings
(again just a change of 0.2Kg) solved this problem and the buzzing
stopped. This actually surprised me although that was what I was hoping
for.
I don't actually know why this took place. It could be because the
slightly raised tension of the whole course, changed slightly the angle
of the neck, or simply because the Venice strings vibrate in the same
pattern as the Loaded, thus avoiding clashing of the pair, but I don't
know (I am not the only one to notice this result).
I mention this also because it means you do need to be absolutely sure
what diapason you are going to use if you order Loaded Venices, there
is less margin of error.
Also with this small swap within .2Kg the whole feel of the course
changed in terms of what was the leading string of the couple; so
depending on string types, I think quite small changes can be very
perceptible in effect.
When I can resolve all the problems stemming from my computer
failures, I will try to explain to those of our list who might be
interested, the essence of what I learnt about Charles Besnainou's
spring strings.
Best wishes
Anthony
Message d'origine
De : Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp.
11c.?
Date : 30/11/2009 15:11:18 CET
Copie `a : wi...@cs.helsinki.fi;
baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Hi All,
Just a comment on the low tension issue.
I don't regard 3.0 Kg (well, let's be scientific and call it approx.
30
N) as low tension, so the difference between 2.8 Kg and 3.0 Kg is
not
such a big deal. When I experimented with using a double top string
on
a 9c lute (67 cm) I ended up with the low octave of the 9th course
going
down to about 19N. It was then vital that the upper octave of that
course was at a higher tension than the fundamental. I ended up
taking
the pitch down so that the top string was tuned to e' at modern pitch
-
even so the individual strings of the first course (Nylgut) were
thinner
than any string which could have been made in the 17th century, so we
have some serious reconsideration of pitch to do. I was plucking the
top course about 50mm from the bridge.
Another story relates to a 13c swan-neck lute I recently made with an
authentically thin soundboard (based on the Schelle MI 46 in
Nuremberg). I used what I thought were low tension strings but had to
reduce them again, and the sound was much more like a renaissance
lute
than one usually hears from this type of instrument. I would love to
have strung the whole thing in gut, but never got the chance.
Incidentally, the thickest string would be only about 1.4mm, so
unloaded
high-twist gut would be fine. The only problem is the transition
between the stopped 8th and the open 9th, but that's a problem the
old
guys must have had too.
I think we are still heavily influenced by the guitar, and the
expectations of string feel it generates - and this applies to
those
who have never played the guitar, because the lute
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp. 11c.?
Hi Arto Congratulations on the 11-course. I'm new to it as well, recieved mine last month. This is what I did with strings, and am happy with it so far: 68cm a'=415Hz, all Gamut-gut 1) 0.40 treble gut 2) 0.46 treble gut 3) 0.54 treble gut (twice) 4) 0.66 treble gut (twice) 5) 0.78 treble gut (twice) 6) 0.54 treble gut 1.08 Pistoy 7) 0.60 treble gut 1.22 Pistoy 8) 0.68 treble gut 1.36 Pistoy 9) 0.74 treble gut 1.48 Pistoy 10) 0.80 treble gut 1.62 Pistoy 11) 0.92 treble gut 1.82 Pistoy So far my best tone is pretty close to the bridge. No wonder with these low tension strings. 4) Any other important issues and advice in stringing a d-m-lute, especially 11c.? Spacing on the nut. Make sure there's enough room between basses and octaves when using low tension gut. I'm still struggling to find the best spacing for 6 and 7, as these need space between bass and octave to prevent rattling, but also need to be fingered a lot, so not too much space bewteen bass and octave. Higher tension is another solution. ;-) Enjoy! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp. 11c.?
wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi schrieb: 1) What string tensions you use? ca. 2.3-2.5 N Do you use the same throughout? No. Middle courses closer to 2.3, basses closer to 2.5 N Or more to the 2 singles? Yes. Or less to the octaves of the basses? Yes, slightly 2) What string materials you prefer? What materials you actually use? Petit jeu is nylgut, 6th through 11th basses gut. 3) Do you use your right hand as for ex. Mouton in the famous painting, near the bridge, or nearer the rose as many of the big names of today do? Mouton / Mace. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
