[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[David Tayler]

   Four lutes and a six pack
   d
 __

   From: Herbert Ward 
   To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 1:03 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] What is a classic lute quartet?
   I saw a description of "the classic lute quartet"
   as four lutes in d'', a', g, and d.
   I googled, and I searched the archives of this forum,
   and I also tried Wikipedia.  Very little was forthcoming.
   So I have a number of questions.  Is there such a thing
   as "the classic lute quartet"?  Is there a body of
   literature for it?  Where and when was its heydey?  Who
   composed music for it?  What factors caused its rise and
   fall?
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[David van Ooijen]

   Arthur just pointed out that Thysius has lute quartets as well,
   ninetene no less! The naming of the parts is confusing, and according
   to the preface of the beautiful facsimile (still for sale form the
   Dutch Lute Society ...) a similar set of lutes is needed as for the
   Adriaenssen quartets. The preface suggests Adriaenssen's publication
   was taken as model. That would be the classical quartet, then, perhaps.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


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[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[David van Ooijen]

   

 Who makes a decent, reasonably priced octave lute in d these
 days?

   

   Stephen  Sandi ( Barber  Harris that is). Look no further.A

   David

   A

 A Pat O'Brien used to recommend Larry D. Brown's little lutes, but
 he stopped making lutes for a while, though I see he's now back at
 it:
 [1]http://www.cincinnatiearlymusic.com/about_us.html
 Grant Tomlinson has a beautiful little Venere on his web site, but
 his prices are high and his waiting list is long.:
 [2]http://www.tomlinsonlutes.com/six2.html
 Anybody in the UK or Europe?
 Geoff
 --
 Geoff Gaherty
 Foxmead Observatory
 Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
 [3]http://www.gaherty.ca
 [4]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [7]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. http://www.cincinnatiearlymusic.com/about_us.html
   2. http://www.tomlinsonlutes.com/six2.html
   3. http://www.gaherty.ca/
   4. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[Geoff Gaherty]

On 2015-06-07 12:51 PM, David van Ooijen wrote:

I have lutes in a', g' and d'. Can almost start my own 'classic
quartet'.


Who makes a decent, reasonably priced octave lute in d these days? 
Pat O'Brien used to recommend Larry D. Brown's little lutes, but he 
stopped making lutes for a while, though I see he's now back at it:


http://www.cincinnatiearlymusic.com/about_us.html

Grant Tomlinson has a beautiful little Venere on his web site, but his 
prices are high and his waiting list is long.:


http://www.tomlinsonlutes.com/six2.html

Anybody in the UK or Europe?

Geoff

--
Geoff Gaherty
Foxmead Observatory
Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
http://www.gaherty.ca
http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[Sean Smith]

Who makes a decent, reasonably priced octave lute in d these days? 


I have a 40cm 6c from M.Haycock of his own design from '92. The body is deeper 
than the Venere model (half-circle body and neck) and the pegbox is at a 
90-degree angle. It's on my pic on the Lute.ning page and I'm quite happy with 
it.

A duet/trio buddy has a L.Brown 44cm so we've been able to compare the two 
easily. That, too, is a fine instrument and I hear he built quite a few so you 
may be able to find one secondhand.

The 44cm lute is very nice and useful at c' and with lutes in F and G make a 
relaxed Pacalono trio. To my ear it sounds a bit shrill at d' but is doable 
with synthetics. I keep the 40 at d' (A=415) where it's pretty comfortable. I 
can take it up or down a semitone easily enough.

Sean



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[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[David van Ooijen]

   I stand corrected.
   I have lutes in a', g' and d'. Can almost start my own 'classic
   quartet'.
   David

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   On 7 June 2015 at 14:16, Geoff Gaherty [3]ge...@gaherty.ca wrote:

 On 2015-06-07 4:14 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

 Adriaensen (1584)
 A  A  has two pieces for the same combination.

 Actually Adriansen's two quartets are for a _different_ combination:
 lutes in a', g, e', and d', not d, a', g', and d'.A  The earliest
 modern performances of these by Anthony Rooley were on g', f', d',
 and c' lutes, a second lower.A  As someone else said, it's the
 intervals that are made clear by the tablature, not the actual
 pitches.
 I've played in quartets at both sets of intervals, and both are
 effective.A  The a'g'e'd' combination is often harder to play,
 because of the extreme chords on one or two of the lutes, but gives
 a richer sound because of all those sympathetic strings at so many
 pitches.A  I'm convinced that there was no standard set of lutes
 in the 16th century, but that composers wrote for a particular set
 of lutes to which they had access.A  Sets of three seem to have been
 much more common than sets of four, but these too varied in their
 intervals.A  To play all the quartets and trios (plus the many duets
 at unequal intervals) you actually need a set of FIVE lutes, pitched
 at d, a', g', e' and d'.
 When Richard Kolb was teaching lute at the Royal Conservatory in
 Toronto, he had Mike Schreiner build lutes in a', e', and d', and
 persuaded three of us students to buy them in addition to our g'
 lutes.A  I ended up with the e' lute, based on a Hans Frei body, and
 it is a magnificent instrument.A  I used it most when I accompanied
 a countertenor in lute songs.A  Nowadays I mostly keep it tuned in
 d', as that is more useful in ensembles.
 Geoff
 --
 Geoff Gaherty
 Foxmead Observatory
 Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
 [4]http://www.gaherty.ca
 [5]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. mailto:ge...@gaherty.ca
   4. http://www.gaherty.ca/
   5. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[Martin Shepherd]

Well, I do make a lute in D based on the Venere lute (44cm string 
length) and my waiting list is short.


But I have to tell you that this string length is almost impossible to 
tune to d'' at modern pitch, even in synthetic strings.  The obvious 
solution is to tune the whole lute quartet to about a'=392 (about a tone 
below modern pitch) - then the 44cm lute is called a lute in D but is 
actually in C, the 59cm lute is in A, the 67cm lute is in G, and the 
bass lute (theoretically c.88 cm) is in D.  Various modern lute 
quartets have done this and it makes much more sense than trying to tune 
to modern pitch.


I would also add that Dowland's remarks about using bigger strings for 
bigger lutes applies - small lutes prefer lower tension than bigger 
lutes, and vice-versa.


Best wishes,

Martin

On 07/06/2015 19:20, Geoff Gaherty wrote:

On 2015-06-07 12:51 PM, David van Ooijen wrote:

I have lutes in a', g' and d'. Can almost start my own 'classic
quartet'.


Who makes a decent, reasonably priced octave lute in d these days? 
Pat O'Brien used to recommend Larry D. Brown's little lutes, but he 
stopped making lutes for a while, though I see he's now back at it:


http://www.cincinnatiearlymusic.com/about_us.html

Grant Tomlinson has a beautiful little Venere on his web site, but his 
prices are high and his waiting list is long.:


http://www.tomlinsonlutes.com/six2.html

Anybody in the UK or Europe?

Geoff




---
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[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[Geoff Gaherty]

On 2015-06-07 4:14 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

Adriaensen (1584)
has two pieces for the same combination.


Actually Adriansen's two quartets are for a _different_ combination: 
lutes in a', g, e', and d', not d, a', g', and d'.  The earliest modern 
performances of these by Anthony Rooley were on g', f', d', and c' 
lutes, a second lower.  As someone else said, it's the intervals that 
are made clear by the tablature, not the actual pitches.


I've played in quartets at both sets of intervals, and both are 
effective.  The a'g'e'd' combination is often harder to play, because of 
the extreme chords on one or two of the lutes, but gives a richer sound 
because of all those sympathetic strings at so many pitches.  I'm 
convinced that there was no standard set of lutes in the 16th century, 
but that composers wrote for a particular set of lutes to which they had 
access.  Sets of three seem to have been much more common than sets of 
four, but these too varied in their intervals.  To play all the quartets 
and trios (plus the many duets at unequal intervals) you actually need a 
set of FIVE lutes, pitched at d, a', g', e' and d'.


When Richard Kolb was teaching lute at the Royal Conservatory in 
Toronto, he had Mike Schreiner build lutes in a', e', and d', and 
persuaded three of us students to buy them in addition to our g' lutes. 
 I ended up with the e' lute, based on a Hans Frei body, and it is a 
magnificent instrument.  I used it most when I accompanied a 
countertenor in lute songs.  Nowadays I mostly keep it tuned in d', as 
that is more useful in ensembles.


Geoff

--
Geoff Gaherty
Foxmead Observatory
Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
http://www.gaherty.ca
http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[G. C.]

   Not strictly quartets, but potentially so:
   The Novus partus , while not nearly so extensive a collection as the
   Thesaurus, is of interest on several counts. It is one of the last
   books to have been printed from woodblock in Germany; and its 59
   compositions (also in French tablature) are divided into three
   sections, the first having 12 pieces for three differently tuned
   concerting lutes and two other instruments or voices, (...) The
   similarities and differences between the contents of the Thesaurus and
   those of the Novus partus reveal the differences in musical tastes in
   1603 and 1617, particularly towards concerted music. (...) The chief
   differences between the collections lie in the absence of vocal
   intabulations in the Novus partus, its emphasis on the expanded lower
   range of the theorbed lute, and the astounding increase in the number
   of concerted works.
   Julia Sutton
   And who said they were riddled with mistakes?
   G.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[David van Ooijen]

   Yes, the infamous Bizarre print.

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   On 7 June 2015 at 11:23, G. C. [3]kalei...@gmail.com wrote:

 A  A Not strictly quartets, but potentially so:
 A  A The Novus partus , while not nearly so extensive a collection
 as the
 A  A Thesaurus, is of interest on several counts. It is one of the
 last
 A  A books to have been printed from woodblock in Germany; and its
 59
 A  A compositions (also in French tablature) are divided into three
 A  A sections, the first having 12 pieces for three differently
 tuned
 A  A concerting lutes and two other instruments or voices, (...) The
 A  A similarities and differences between the contents of the
 Thesaurus and
 A  A those of the Novus partus reveal the differences in musical
 tastes in
 A  A 1603 and 1617, particularly towards concerted music. (...) The
 chief
 A  A differences between the collections lie in the absence of vocal
 A  A intabulations in the Novus partus, its emphasis on the expanded
 lower
 A  A range of the theorbed lute, and the astounding increase in
 the number
 A  A of concerted works.
 A  A Julia Sutton
 A  A And who said they were riddled with mistakes?
 A  A G.
 A  A --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: What is a classic lute quartet?

[David van Ooijen]

   Vallet used this combination for a handful of pieces. Adriaensen (1584)
   has two pieces for the same combination. Terzi wrote one quartet, but
   for two d' and two g' lutes (more like a double duet). That's about it.
   David

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   On 7 June 2015 at 10:03, Herbert Ward [3]wa...@physics.utexas.edu
   wrote:

 I saw a description of the classic lute quartet
 as four lutes in d'', a', g, and d.
 I googled, and I searched the archives of this forum,
 and I also tried Wikipedia.A  Very little was forthcoming.
 So I have a number of questions.A  Is there such a thing
 as the classic lute quartet?A  Is there a body of
 literature for it?A  Where and when was its heydey?A  Who
 composed music for it?A  What factors caused its rise and
 fall?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html