[LUTE] Re: airs with lute in d minor tuning
H. Theorbo was doubtless much used, but let's not forget that Lambert just as often accompanied himself on a lute as on a theorbo. Evrard Titon du Tillet writes that: Lambert jouoit tr=E8s bien du Luth et du Tuorbe, dont il accompagnoit les sons melodieux de sa voix avec un art et gout admirable. [Lambert played the lute and the theorbo very well, with which he would accompany the melodious sounds of his voice with an admirable art and taste.] Indeed, du Tillet places him under the section Excellents Joueurs de Luth. Furthermore, in his own 1666 Book of Airs, Perrin writes a sonnet saying that Beautiful ladies lend their hearts and ears to your [Lambert's ] songs/and let themselves be ravished by the charm of your fingers. Perrin later compares such women to a group of bees who would follow the accents of a lute or voice of Lambert's. See Michel Lambert, *Les Airs de Monsieur Lambert*.(Paris: 1666), p. 3. Translation mine. On 14/01/2008, Roland Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Michel Lambert, Sebastien le Camus and otherrs take up the torch for airs de cour but with theorbo and figured bass. A little earlier Etienne Moulenie may have published some air de cour with figured bass; his first three books at least have tab for renaissance lute. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:46 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs with lute in d minor tuning I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why publication of lute songs in France suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges. It's curious don't you think? All those volumes by Ballard and then nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute tablature in the 'accord nouveau' Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Some hymns as well, e.g., Reusner's hundert geistliche melodien for voice and 11 c. No mensural notation for the voice, you're expected to know the hymn or use another source. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Dear Roland, Are you saying that Reusner's arrangements are just accompaniments? That the melody is not there? I like these pieces but don't know anything about them Please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'geistliche' mean in English? Cheers, Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 January 2008 14:45 To: damian dlugolecki; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Some hymns as well, e.g., Reusner's hundert geistliche melodien for voice and 11 c. No mensural notation for the voice, you're expected to know the hymn or use another source. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Zitat von Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'geistliche' mean in English? Rob It means sacred or spiritual. sacred melodies A decent online dictionary is http://dict.leo.org, albeit in German. g To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Hi Rob, this arrangements can be played solo, as the melody is there in all of them. It is easier if you know it, but I would say any musician will be able to get it without knowing these tunes ;-). For sure Reusners pieces can be used for accompaigning, but this is only a possibility, as mentioned in the foreword. Best Markus Rob schrieb: Dear Roland, Are you saying that Reusner's arrangements are just accompaniments? That the melody is not there? I like these pieces but don't know anything about them Please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'geistliche' mean in English? Cheers, Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 January 2008 14:45 To: damian dlugolecki; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Some hymns as well, e.g., Reusner's hundert geistliche melodien for voice and 11 c. No mensural notation for the voice, you're expected to know the hymn or use another source. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
It has been a while since I looked at these pieces but as I recall the melody was missing in the ones we performed. R. -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:53 AM To: Roland Hayes; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Dear Roland, Are you saying that Reusner's arrangements are just accompaniments? That the melody is not there? I like these pieces but don't know anything about them Please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'geistliche' mean in English? Cheers, Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 January 2008 14:45 To: damian dlugolecki; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Some hymns as well, e.g., Reusner's hundert geistliche melodien for voice and 11 c. No mensural notation for the voice, you're expected to know the hymn or use another source. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Roland Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: It has been a while since I looked at these pieces but as I recall the melody was missing in the ones we performed. R. Some performers may have been astray by the idea that broken style means broken chords. Yet what is broken is the melody. Reusner adapted plain chant to French lute playing fashion. That's why it may be difficult to recognize some of the hymns which Reusner arranged for the lute, especially if a tune has slightly been altered by now (most often, rhythm is affected). Mathias -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:53 AM To: Roland Hayes; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Dear Roland, Are you saying that Reusner's arrangements are just accompaniments? That the melody is not there? I like these pieces but don't know anything about them Please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'geistliche' mean in English? Cheers, Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 January 2008 14:45 To: damian dlugolecki; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Some hymns as well, e.g., Reusner's hundert geistliche melodien for voice and 11 c. No mensural notation for the voice, you're expected to know the hymn or use another source. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Homepage der Kirchengemeinde St. Pauli: http://www.kirche-bremen.de/gemeinden/25_st_pauli/25_st_pauli http://www.bremen.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=335529 http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Geistlich means sacred regards Thomas Dear Roland, Are you saying that Reusner's arrangements are just accompaniments? That the melody is not there? I like these pieces but don't know anything about them Please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'geistliche' mean in English? Cheers, Rob [1]www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 January 2008 14:45 To: damian dlugolecki; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning Some hymns as well, e.g., Reusner's hundert geistliche melodien for voice and 11 c. No mensural notation for the voice, you're expected to know the hymn or use another source. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/www.rmguitar.info 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs with lute in d minor tuning
That is weird- maybe. There was a period of transition; it wasn't like everyone went to bed one night, woke the next morning to find all the lutes re-strung retuned to d-minor but with all other musical/social customs, mores, conventions unchanged. Off the top of my head I can't recall how many different transitional tunings were used and how long it took for the d-minor, which at first (I think) was just one of the bunch, to become dominant. I believe Thomas Mace ca. 1676 was still mostly using the Flat French and related tunings; I think he was aware of the d-minor as a new tuning. Then there were little distractions such as the 30 Years War taking folk's minds and activity choices away from such cultural diversions as music making, composing, and especially publishing; and sending them in other directions. How much of this impacted the French musicians I don't know. It would be interesting to know more; any historians/musicologists care to connect the dots fill in the blanks definitively for us? -Dan I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why publication of lute songs in France suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges. It's curious don't you think? All those volumes by Ballard and then nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute tablature in the 'accord nouveau' Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs with lute in d minor tuning
Damian: This is an interesting phenomenon, and the fact that printed airs de cour do not survive with accompaniments in alternate tunings indicates that they (alternate tunings) were really meant to take advantage of the instrumental colors of the instrument and were just less suitable for harmonic support. The old tuning provided a much better menu of harmonic choices for accompaniments. The disappearance of intabulated accompaniments probably had less to do with the preference for d-minor tuning, and more to do with the advent of a simpler style of accompaniment and the accepted use of figured bass, which could be played on a variety of instruments. In fact, when Constantine Huygens submitted his manuscript of Pathodia sacra et profana occupati (Ballard, 1647) for publication, he included tablature accompaniments to the airs. The publisher altered the tablatures to lightly figured bass, due to the change in taste. Cited below are a few interesting articles on the air de cour, a genre I find particularly interesting. Experimental Notation and Entrepreneurship in the Seventeenth Century: The Air de Cour for Voice and Lute, 1608-1643, Jonathan Le Cocq, Revue de musicologie, T. 85e, No. 2e (1999), pp. 265-275 Tunings and Transpositions in the Early 17th-Century French Lute Air -- Some Implications, David Tunley, Early Music Vol. 21, No. 2, (May, 1993), pp. 203-209 Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:45:41 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] airs with lute in d minor tuning I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why publication of lute songs in France suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges. It's curious don't you think? All those volumes by Ballard and then nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute tablature in the 'accord nouveau' Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause --
[LUTE] Re: airs with lute in d minor tuning
I think Michel Lambert, Sebastien le Camus and otherrs take up the torch for airs de cour but with theorbo and figured bass. A little earlier Etienne Moulenie may have published some air de cour with figured bass; his first three books at least have tab for renaissance lute. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:46 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs with lute in d minor tuning I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why publication of lute songs in France suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges. It's curious don't you think? All those volumes by Ballard and then nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute tablature in the 'accord nouveau' Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: airs with lute in d minor tuning
I think it might be worth remembering that there is no music printed for solo lute in France between 1638 and ca. 1670. Ballard publications were done on moveable type, but the publications after ca. 1670 are all engraved. Ballard was unsuccessful in gaining a royal privilege for the new medium. It is possible that lute music in the period of transition was not such a lucrative prospect from the French publisher and only when a more cost efficient and composer friendly medium emerged were there new works published, this time in d-minor tuning. It is also worth pointing out that Perrine, in the second edition of his big book, offers a table of figured bass formulas for the 11-course, d-minor lute. I suspect that the practice of accompaniment on the d-minor lute, even after the publication of Lambert's airs of 1670, may have been more widespread among practicing lutenists than has been previously recognized. jorge torres On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:02 PM, Roland Hayes wrote: I think Michel Lambert, Sebastien le Camus and otherrs take up the torch for airs de cour but with theorbo and figured bass. A little earlier Etienne Moulenie may have published some air de cour with figured bass; his first three books at least have tab for renaissance lute. -Original Message- From: damian dlugolecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:46 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] airs with lute in d minor tuning I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why publication of lute songs in France suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges. It's curious don't you think? All those volumes by Ballard and then nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute tablature in the 'accord nouveau' Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Jorge Torres Associate Professor of Music 237 Williams Center Lafayette College Easton, PA 18042 (610)330-5365 [EMAIL PROTECTED] : --
[LUTE] Re: airs for lute in d minor tuning
Kremberg, Beyer, some in Augsburg Ms, but most in http://polyhymnion.org/lieder/german.html RT - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] airs for lute in d minor tuning It has always seemed odd to me that the publication of airs de cour with lute accompaniment ceased with the emerging popularity of the d minor tuning. A case has already been made that the d minor tuned lute was used for continuo. And airs for various operas and ballets continued to be created. Can anyone tell me if there were songs published with the new tuning, or if not, why not? Damian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
