[LUTE] Re: catgut
Dear All, I don't know whether Downing was misquoted, but the ascription of the Sheepes and Catts gutte quote to Margaret Board is incorrect. It is found in the Burwell lute tutor (c.1670), which was almost certainly copied by Mary Burwell from an anonymous source, probably her teacher. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: catgut
Martin, Thank you for this correction. I was influenced by Alexander, but you are right that citation is from Mary Burwell - chapter IV (Of the strings of the lute, and stringing thereof;and of the frets and tuning of the lute). She writes: The strings are made of sheep's and cat's guts, and are twisted with a great deal of art. JL W dniu 2010-12-29 17:14, Martin Shepherd pisze: Dear All, I don't know whether Downing was misquoted, but the ascription of the Sheepes and Catts gutte quote to Margaret Board is incorrect. It is found in the Burwell lute tutor (c.1670), which was almost certainly copied by Mary Burwell from an anonymous source, probably her teacher. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: catgut
Sounds pretty farfetched to me, but what do I know? I had heard that cat is just short for cattle, which of course includes sheep. On Dec 27, 2010, at 11:34 PM, JarosAA'aw Lipski wrote: Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ [3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
[LUTE] Re: catgut
Could be a cat, but more likely a kit--a violin the term catgut is used to describe violins early on, so kitgut makes a certain amount of sense. On the other hand, who knows? It could be cats. An old term is kattedarm dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: catgut
If Dan chases a kitty for gut, he does so sheepishly. ed At 08:51 AM 12/27/2010, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite out of their ideal of authenticity. I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has just ordered a set. RT - Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] catgut Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: catgut
On Dec 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite out of their ideal of authenticity. I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has just ordered a set. RT Morris' pseudo-etymological conjecture (hardly unique to him) may be plausible for fiddlers, but any lutenist who could manage to make his instrument sound like a cat of any kind would have my enduring respect. A thousand pardons if I've asked this before, but is string material called cat gut in French, German, or Italian? - Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] catgut Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a ! comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: catgut
That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite out of their ideal of authenticity. I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has just ordered a set. RT Morris' pseudo-etymological conjecture (hardly unique to him) may be plausible for fiddlers, but any lutenist who could manage to make his instrument sound like a cat of any kind would have my enduring respect. A thousand pardons if I've asked this before, but is string material called cat gut in French, German, or Italian? Certainly not. RT From: Jaroslaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a ! comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: catgut
Then there is the reference to caterpillars that produce silk... RA Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:29:34 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: catgut On Dec 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite out of their ideal of authenticity. I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has just ordered a set. RT Morris' pseudo-etymological conjecture (hardly unique to him) may be plausible for fiddlers, but any lutenist who could manage to make his instrument sound like a cat of any kind would have my enduring respect. A thousand pardons if I've asked this before, but is string material called cat gut in French, German, or Italian? - Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] catgut Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a ! comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: catgut
..or cat as possibly derived from kit, an antiquated folk reference to fiddles. ...or cat as an abbreviation of cattle in general reference to any ruminant (or specifically sheep) from which a large length of gut for string fabrication might come. Take your pick. I doubt this one will be conclusively resolved any time soon, and even if it is, I doubt it will substantially change my appreciation of the music or of playing it. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 12:51 PM To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: catgut Then there is the reference to caterpillars that produce silk... RA Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:29:34 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: catgut On Dec 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite out of their ideal of authenticity. I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has just ordered a set. RT Morris' pseudo-etymological conjecture (hardly unique to him) may be plausible for fiddlers, but any lutenist who could manage to make his instrument sound like a cat of any kind would have my enduring respect. A thousand pardons if I've asked this before, but is string material called cat gut in French, German, or Italian? - Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] catgut Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a ! comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: catgut
Just for the amusement, and i hope John Downing would not mind: CATGUT: COMM. 1567 REVISITED A basic assumption today is that all lute strings of the 16th and 17th C were made from ‘gut’- invariably taken to mean the intestines of a lamb or sheep. Yet, historical references to lute string materials are rare and, when they do occur, include materials other than the intestinal fibre of sheep. Robert Dowland (1610) and Mace – the two most often quoted historical sources concerning lute strings – make no mention at all about the materials used for fabricating strings. Margaret Board (1660 – 1672) does. She says that lute strings were made from “Sheepes and Catts gutte”. Board is clearly making a distinction between sheep’s gut and a material called catgut.(1) So what was catgut? Samuel Pepys was an angler of sorts. An entry in his diary for January 1659/1660 records that “This day Mr Caesar told me a pretty experiment of his, of angling with a minikin, a gut string varnished over which keeps it from swelling and is beyond any hair for strength and smallness. The secret I like mightily!” (Comm. 1567). Pepys was using angling terminology. Early records confirm that anglers made their fishing lines from horsehair (2). The final connection between line and hook had to be a fine, strong, transparent line, invisible to a fish. This short length of line, known as a ‘cast’ or ‘leader’ was usually made from white horsehair - referred to by anglers, simply, as ‘hair.’ Horsehair used in commerce today – taken from the tail of the animal – measures from 0.003 to 0.011 inches in diameter. Its diameter and strength depend upon the breed of horse and its diet. We know, from the writings of Thomas Mace (1676), that strings called ‘minikins’ were used for lute 1st, 2nd, and 3rd courses as well as for small octave strings (particularly the 6th octave). Pepsy’s minikin string was “ beyond any hair for strength and smallness”, so either lute treble strings in the 17th C were a lot smaller in diameter than we imagine today or horsehair available to anglers of the period was quite a bit larger in diameter (and stronger) than is generally obtainable today. I believe the latter proposition to be the case. During the first quarter of the 18th C, an innovative material for freshwater fishermen came on to the market. The new material, that was to eventually replace horsehair for leaders - as best quality horsehair became increasingly difficult to obtain - was a transparent, monofilament line of silk known as ‘silkworm gut’- or just ‘gut’ to fishermen. According to Herd (3), silkworm gut was first advertised for sale to anglers in 1722 and the first angling book to describe the manufacture and use of silkworm gut for leaders was “The Compleat Fisherman” by James Saunders published in 1724. In his book, Saunders makes direct comparison between silkworm gut (used for angling) and catgut (used for viols and violins). He also confirms that these strings ‘resembled a single hair’ (4). SILK FILAMENT AND SILKWORM GUT Silk filament, used for making silk fabric, is produced by the caterpillar of the ‘Bombyx Mori’ moth domesticated for this purpose by the Chinese – way back in the mists of antiquity. The caterpillar spins a cocoon, prior to pupation, containing a continuous double filament of silk around 3000 to 4000 yards (2800 to 3700 metres) in length - each filament being about 0.001 inch (0.025 mm) in diameter. This strong, fine filament, after treatment and twisting into thread, was used, not only for weaving into silk fabric, but also for making articles such as bow strings and musical instrument strings used in Middle and Far Eastern cultures (5). The technology required for silk production was introduced to the Middle East before 600 A.D. By the 11th C, the Arabs had established the industry in North Africa, Spain and Sicily. Italy was to follow in the 12th C. By the 16th C, France had become a major centre for silk production. Silkworm gut – known to the Chinese centuries before it became generally available in Europe – is a by-product of the silk industry. At maturity, the caterpillar of the silkworm moth measures about 3 inches long by about 0.375 inches in diameter. The silk is produced in two sacs - weighing about 25% of total body weight Silkworm gut - prepared for use as angling leaders - is made by soaking the mature caterpillar in vinegar to kill it and to condition the contents of the sac. The caterpillar is then split open and each sac is stretched and set on a frame to dry – the more each sac is stretched, the smaller is the diameter of the strand produced. After cleaning, the strands are graded according to quality and diameter. A further refinement is to pass the strands through sizing dies in order to produce precise and consistent diameters. These are known as ‘drawn’ gut strands.
[LUTE] Re: catgut
It doesn't rule out a possibility, that this term could be borrowed from fiddlers world thou. As I said there is no bibliography given, so it's difficult to check that data out, but I cited it as one of possible hypothesis. JL W dniu 2010-12-27 17:29, howard posner pisze: On Dec 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite out of their ideal of authenticity. I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has just ordered a set. RT Morris' pseudo-etymological conjecture (hardly unique to him) may be plausible for fiddlers, but any lutenist who could manage to make his instrument sound like a cat of any kind would have my enduring respect. A thousand pardons if I've asked this before, but is string material called cat gut in French, German, or Italian? - Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl To:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] catgut Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a! ! comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests). Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!). Best wishes for the coming New Year! Jaroslaw Lipski To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: catgut [somewhat peripheral to topic]
Very interesting. Thanks for this, Alexander. Peripheral, but the Treatyse of Fysshynge With an Angle was first published (as you've referenced) as only one small part of an all purpose, late-medieval outdoorsmen's compilation generally known as the Book of St. Albans. It also included treatises on hunting and falconry. The fishing treatise is in prose while the other two are in verse and are attributed to the mysterious and now mythical Dame Juliana Berners (i.e., Explicit Dam Julyans Barnes in her boke of huntyng). There is a partial manuscript version of the fishing treatise dated to approx. 50 years earlier than this publication. The fishing treatise does indeed describe selecting, plaiting, and coloring tail hairs from horses as the only reference to fabricating fishing lines. Likewise, The Compleat Angler, Isaak/Izaak Walton's celebrated book, also only discusses braided horse hair as fishing line. It was first published in 1653, but expanded editions by the author himself were published through 1676. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of alexander Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 1:09 PM To: Ron Andrico Cc: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: catgut Just for the amusement, and i hope John Downing would not mind: CATGUT: COMM. 1567 REVISITED A basic assumption today is that all lute strings of the 16th and 17th C were made from gut- invariably taken to mean the intestines of a lamb or sheep. Yet, historical references to lute string materials are rare and, when they do occur, include materials other than the intestinal fibre of sheep. Robert Dowland (1610) and Mace the two most often quoted historical sources concerning lute strings make no mention at all about the materials used for fabricating strings. Margaret Board (1660 1672) does. She says that lute strings were made from Sheepes and Catts gutte. Board is clearly making a distinction between sheeps gut and a material called catgut.(1) So what was catgut? Samuel Pepys was an angler of sorts. An entry in his diary for January 1659/1660 records that This day Mr Caesar told me a pretty experiment of his, of angling with a minikin, a gut string varnished over which keeps it from swelling and is beyond any hair for strength and smallness. The secret I like mightily! (Comm. 1567). Pepys was using angling terminology. Early records confirm that anglers made their fishing lines from horsehair (2). The final connection between line and hook had to be a fine, strong, transparent line, invisible to a fish. This short length of line, known as a cast or leader was usually made from white horsehair - referred to by anglers, simply, as hair. Horsehair used in commerce today taken from the tail of the animal measures from 0.003 to 0.011 inches in diameter. Its diameter and strength depend upon the breed of horse and its diet. We know, from the writings of Thomas Mace (1676), that strings called minikins were used for lute 1st, 2nd, and 3rd courses as well as for small octave strings (particularly the 6th octave). Pepsys minikin string was beyond any hair for strength and smallness, so either lute treble strings in the 17th C were a lot smaller in diameter than we imagine today or horsehair available to anglers of the period was quite a bit larger in diameter (and stronger) than is generally obtainable today. I believe the latter proposition to be the case. During the first quarter of the 18th C, an innovative material for freshwater fishermen came on to the market. The new material, that was to eventually replace horsehair for leaders - as best quality horsehair became increasingly difficult to obtain - was a transparent, monofilament line of silk known as silkworm gut- or just gut to fishermen. According to Herd (3), silkworm gut was first advertised for sale to anglers in 1722 and the first angling book to describe the manufacture and use of silkworm gut for leaders was The Compleat Fisherman by James Saunders published in 1724. In his book, Saunders makes direct comparison between silkworm gut (used for angling) and catgut (used for viols and violins). He also confirms that these strings resembled a single hair (4). SILK FILAMENT AND SILKWORM GUT Silk filament, used for making silk fabric, is produced by the caterpillar of the Bombyx Mori moth domesticated for this purpose by the Chinese way back in the mists of antiquity. The caterpillar spins a cocoon, prior to pupation, containing a continuous double filament of silk around 3000 to 4000 yards (2800 to 3700 metres) in length - each filament being about 0.001 inch (0.025 mm) in diameter. This strong, fine filament, after treatment and twisting into thread, was used, not only for weaving into silk fabric, but also
