RE: Unquiet thoughts, was Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
Hi Ron, (I'm sending this to the list, I hope you don't mind) Unquiet thoughts is the first song in the first songbook, which is probably a significant position, as Stewart pointed out. The melodic and harmonic citation is, though not literal, on the words Ile cut the string. I just recently found that the American lute society has a nice web page devoted to Susanne un jour, with the original score and different intabulations: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/Susanne/index.html #Chansons BTW, in Mus.Ms 40032 (Krakow/Berlin) are a number of short pre- or postludes titled Clausola di Suzanna, one of them using exactly the harmonic progression of the last Susanne bars: g B F c Eb B F g c D G . The marked passage indicates the citation in Unquiet thoughts. Best regards, Stephan Am 19 Nov 2003 um 19:36 hat Ron Fletcher geschrieben: Hi Stephan, I only have the Suzanna Galliard, (Dd 2.11 f.52). But, if you have a Fronimo, or PDF copy of Suzanne un jour I would be very pleased to receive it as an attachment. Is this from the 3rd Book of Songs? I only have Book one and two. Best Wishes Ron Fletcher Loughborough East Mids.UK -Original Message- From: Stephan Olbertz [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 November 2003 22:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Unquiet thoughts, was Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies Dear Stewart and all, the last bars of Unquiet thoughts clearly cite the last bars of Orlando's famous chanson Susanne un jour, which could give a hint on the meaning of the song: Susanne rather would die than to be dishonoured, if I get it right. BTW, does anybody happen to know other Dowland songs with Susanne citations? Regards, Stephan Am 18 Nov 2003 um 0:08 hat Stewart McCoy geschrieben: Dear All, I was sent the following in a private e-mail off list, and the sender said I could pass it on: -o-O-o- I'm fascinated by the OED definitions of knacks, particularly by the ones which relate the word to ingenious contrivances -- note also the 17th-century quotation All those pretty knacks you compose -- because I've always thought that Dowland was the peddler, and that the knacks and wares were his songs (treasures from my minde). Read like that, the song is rather touching, and reminiscent of the typical song-book dedication (though these songs be but trifles, the heart is true). -o-O-o- This is a totally new slant on what we were discussing with regrad to the various meanings floating around in Dowland's Fine Knacks for Ladies. It made me think of Dowland's Unquiet thoughts, the first song in his first book of songs. Why choose this one as the first song of all? It has been suggested (possibly by the late Bob Spencer) that the Unquiet thoughts refer to the rest of the songs in Dowland's book. If taken that way, it makes sense having that particular song at the beginning of the song collection. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy.
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
This idea is intriguing, but I'm cautious about ascribing inner meaning to the poetry because Dowland is known to have set any number of poets' verses to song without any acknowlegement (nothing wrong with that according to the standards of his day). I'm not sure it is possible to be sure which lyrics were actually his own. Indeed it seems possible to me that he was in fact a lousy poet and had a ghost-writer. I don't have Poulton or Fellowes at hand to see what they say about the two songs mentioned. Has there been any more recent scholarship on D's lute-song lyrics? Marcus Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear All, I was sent the following in a private e-mail off list, and the sender said I could pass it on: -o-O-o- I'm fascinated by the OED definitions of knacks, particularly by the ones which relate the word to ingenious contrivances -- note also the 17th-century quotation All those pretty knacks you compose -- because I've always thought that Dowland was the peddler, and that the knacks and wares were his songs (treasures from my minde). Read like that, the song is rather touching, and reminiscent of the typical song-book dedication (though these songs be but trifles, the heart is true). -o-O-o- This is a totally new slant on what we were discussing with regrad to the various meanings floating around in Dowland's Fine Knacks for Ladies. It made me think of Dowland's Unquiet thoughts, the first song in his first book of songs. Why choose this one as the first song of all? It has been suggested (possibly by the late Bob Spencer) that the Unquiet thoughts refer to the rest of the songs in Dowland's book. If taken that way, it makes sense having that particular song at the beginning of the song collection. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -- // Marcus Merrin PhD. // EmptyAir Consulting // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) /
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
Dear Marcus, Thanks. That's very funny. Many people hear Wee po, i.e. small chamberpot. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Marcus Merrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies Stewart McCoy Wrote I confess to being shocked the first time I ever heard Purcell's ode for Queen Mary, Come, come ye sons of art. I didn't know the words then, and I certainly didn't hear of art. Would Purcell have dared to do something like that? Bearing in mind his catches, I believe he might well have done. My favorite example is the Madrigal Weep O mine eyes and cease not which is almost impossible to sing without making it Weep O mine eyes and see snot. Of course current usage will often add or delete these double meanings. Who knows, in 100 years, old songs with the word gay in them might revert to their original intent. Marcus
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
Excellent! I have heard the term used by folklorists, but until now , I wodered about the etymology of Mondegreens. In my now dimly remembered youth I owned a book of these titled Your Walrus Hurt the One You Love, but I forget the author's name. Marcus. Jon Murphy wrote: There is a category of sounds called Lady Mondegreens, defined by the American linguist (and also political commentator under his other hat) William Safire. They have killed the Earl of Murray, and laid him on the green. Another in that group is Gladly the cross-eyed bear (Gladly the Cross I'd bear). There are many more, but I'll leave them to you all. -- // Marcus Merrin PhD. // EmptyAir Consulting // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) /
RE: Fine Nacks for Ladies
I remember a book published in the 80's by a Philip Norman with the title Your walrus hurt the one you love. Chris -Original Message- From: Marcus Merrin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 November 2003 12:32 To: Jon Murphy Cc: Lute Net Subject: Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies Excellent! I have heard the term used by folklorists, but until now , I wodered about the etymology of Mondegreens. In my now dimly remembered youth I owned a book of these titled Your Walrus Hurt the One You Love, but I forget the author's name. Marcus. Jon Murphy wrote: There is a category of sounds called Lady Mondegreens, defined by the American linguist (and also political commentator under his other hat) William Safire. They have killed the Earl of Murray, and laid him on the green. Another in that group is Gladly the cross-eyed bear (Gladly the Cross I'd bear). There are many more, but I'll leave them to you all. -- // Marcus Merrin PhD. // EmptyAir Consulting // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) / ** Opening 14 November 2003 at the British Library Galleries : Chinese Printmaking Today, artworks by leading Chinese artists 1980-2000 * The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the [EMAIL PROTECTED] : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. *
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
And let's not forget that famous song by Thomas Campian, Never beat a weathered snail. M P.S. or the out-take from a famous pop artist who sang I don't care about the colour of his hair or the length of his skin
Re: Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
John wrote: May I point out that the word knick-knack might be just a word? We speak of knick-knack shelf as a place to put little things and memorabilia. Jon, the piece is entitled Fine Knacks for Ladies not Fine Knick-Knacks for Ladies. Craig
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
The full OED entry includes reference to related usage that suggests some=20 poetic spiciness was intended: 3. concr. An ingenious contrivance; a toy, trinket, trifle, knick-knack. ?= Obs. 1540 Heywood Four P.P. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 349 Needles, thread,=20 thimble, shears, and all such knacks. 1596 Shakes. Tam. Shr. iv. iii. 67=20 Why 'tis a cockle or a walnut-shell, A knacke, a toy, a tricke, a babies=20 cap: Away with it. ... =86b. A choice dish; a delicacy, a dainty. Obs. 1548 Udall, etc. Erasm. Par. Mark viii. 56 The knackes and junckettes=20 of the Rhetoricians, the royall dishes of the Philosophers. 1592 Greene=20 Disc. Coosnage iii. 10 Hee wanted no ordinarie good fare, wine and other=20 knackes. 1616 Surfl. Markh. Country Farme 574 The flower of=20 meale,+whereof the pasterers+doe make wafers, and such like daintie=20 knackes. 1642 Milton Apol. Smect. i. Wks. (1851) 283 (tr. Horace Sat. i.=20 i. 24) As some teachers give to Boyes Junkets and Knacks, that they may=20 learne apace. =86c. An ingeniously contrived literary composition; a quaint device or= =20 conceit in writing. Obs. 1605 Camden Rem., Rythmes 26 Our Poets hath their knacks+as Ecchos,=20 Achrostiches, Serpentine verses [etc.]. 1641 Denham Petit. to Five Members= =20 41 All those pretty knacks you composeAlas! what are they but poems in=20 prose? 1644 Bulwer Chiron. 98 Ovid that grand Master of love knacks. 1660= =20 H. More Myst. Godl. x. xiii. 532 You+reproach them+that they have not taken= =20 up your Allegorical knacks. 1. A trick; a device, artifice; formerly often, a deceitful or crafty=20 device, a mean or underhand trick; later esp. an adroit or ingenious method= =20 of doing something, a clever expedient, a =91dodge=92. c1369 Chaucer Dethe Blaunche 1033 She ne used no suche knakkes=20 smale. c1380 Wyclif Wks. (1880) 184 Coueitous laweieris wi=FE here gnackis= =20 iapis. a1420 Hoccleve De Reg. Princ. 1395 Al =FEis+Is but a iape, who= seith,=20 or a knak. c1470 Henryson Mor. Fab. v. (Parl. Beasts) xxx, =91Let be,=20 lowrence=92, quod scho, =91your courtlie knax=92. c1540 Earl of Surrey= Poems=20 (1854) 68, I have found a neck To keep my men in guard. 1548 Udall Erasm.= =20 Par. Luke Pref. 13 Swete pleasaunte knackes and conceiptes. 1568 Jacob =20 Esau ii. ii. in Hazl. Dodsley II. 214 That ever son of thine should play=20 such a lewd knack! ... 2. The =91trick=92 of dexterous performance; an acquired faculty of= doing=20 something cleverly, adroitly, and successfully. (Now the leading sense.) 1581 Mulcaster Positions v. (1887) 34 They that haue any naturall=20 towardnesse to write well, haue a knacke of drawing to. ... b. A =91trick=92 of action, speech, etc.; a personal habit of acting or= =20 speaking in a particular way. 1674 N. Fairfax Bulk Selv. To Rdr., If the knack of borrowing, or=20 robbing and pilfering rather, gets but a little further ground amongst=20 us,+it will+be harder for an English-man to speak his own tongue without=20 mingling others with it, than to speak a medly of sundry others with~out=20 bringing in his own. ... At 10:06 AM 11/11/2003 -0500, Caroline Usher wrote: At 08:51 AM 11/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: So then the nacks could be a metaphor for the kind of breathlessness experienced in a passionate encounter. No need to reach so far: 3. concr. An ingenious contrivance; a toy, trinket, trifle,=20 = http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?xrefed=3DOEDxrefword=3Dknick-knack= KNICK-KNACK.=20 ? Obs. 1540 HEYWOOD Four P.P. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 349 Needles, thread,=20 thimble, shears, and all such knacks. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. IV. iii. 67= =20 Why 'tis a cockle or a walnut-shell, A knacke, a toy, a tricke, a babies= =20 cap: Away with it. a1677 BARROW Serm. (1683) II. vii. 104 Springs, and=20 wheels, and such mechanick knacks. 1715 tr. C'tess D'Aunoy's Wks. 557 A=20 Thousand pretty Knacks..which she made with Fish-Bones and Shells, with=20 Reeds and Rushes. 1825 LAMB Elia Ser. II. Superannuated Man, All the=20 glittering and endless succession of knacks and gew~gaws. 1863 COWDEN=20 CLARKE Shaks. Char. xiv. 360 The pedlar's knacks and gaudy trash [Wint.=20 T. IV. iv.] absorb Mopsa's whole gloating vision. Check the third verse of the song, which lists some of the pedlar's=20 kncks: pins, points, laces and gloves. * Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155 Box 91000 -- Douglas E. Miller Home: 203 270 1987, Cell: 203 733 6751 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] erymanguild.org Everyman Guild: www.everymanguild.org --
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The poet seems to be comparing the love of material things personified by the peddlar's trade, with true emotional love which even a profane peddlar may feel. If there was salacious intent, I don't think it would be veiled. I don't think the Elizabethans really shared our post-victorian prudishness, so such matters were not really titillating. I participated in a couple of master classes with Robert Spencer, and he pointed out that what seems veiled to us (e.g. Turtels and twins, court's brood, a heavenly pair referring to Castor and Pollux, symbols of fraternal love) was quite plain to a period and class who were familiar with the classics, rhetoric etc. Just my $0.02 Marcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The full OED entry includes reference to related usage that suggests some=20 poetic spiciness was intended: -- // Marcus Merrin PhD. // EmptyAir Consulting // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) /
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
Stewart McCoy Wrote I confess to being shocked the first time I ever heard Purcell's ode for Queen Mary, Come, come ye sons of art. I didn't know the words then, and I certainly didn't hear of art. Would Purcell have dared to do something like that? Bearing in mind his catches, I believe he might well have done. My favorite example is the Madrigal Weep O mine eyes and cease not which is almost impossible to sing without making it Weep O mine eyes and see snot. Of course current usage will often add or delete these double meanings. Who knows, in 100 years, old songs with the word gay in them might revert to their original intent. Marcus -- // Marcus Merrin PhD. // EmptyAir Consulting // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) /
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
There is a category of sounds called Lady Mondegreens, defined by the American linguist (and also political commentator under his other hat) William Safire. They have killed the Earl of Murray, and laid him on the green. Another in that group is Gladly the cross-eyed bear (Gladly the Cross I'd bear). There are many more, but I'll leave them to you all. And I do resent that I can no longer call myself a gay bachelor without implying something I'm not. My late mother had one, her own childhood sounding - Our father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name. Best, Jon Stewart McCoy Wrote I confess to being shocked the first time I ever heard Purcell's ode for Queen Mary, Come, come ye sons of art. I didn't know the words then, and I certainly didn't hear of art. Would Purcell have dared to do something like that? Bearing in mind his catches, I believe he might well have done. My favorite example is the Madrigal Weep O mine eyes and cease not which is almost impossible to sing without making it Weep O mine eyes and see snot. Of course current usage will often add or delete these double meanings. Who knows, in 100 years, old songs with the word gay in them might revert to their original intent. Marcus -- // Marcus Merrin PhD. // EmptyAir Consulting // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) /
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
At 08:51 AM 11/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: So then the nacks could be a metaphor for the kind of breathlessness experienced in a passionate encounter. No need to reach so far: 3. concr. An ingenious contrivance; a toy, trinket, trifle, http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?xrefed=OEDxrefword=knick-knackKNICK-KNACK. ? Obs. 1540 HEYWOOD Four P.P. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 349 Needles, thread, thimble, shears, and all such knacks. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. IV. iii. 67 Why 'tis a cockle or a walnut-shell, A knacke, a toy, a tricke, a babies cap: Away with it. a1677 BARROW Serm. (1683) II. vii. 104 Springs, and wheels, and such mechanick knacks. 1715 tr. C'tess D'Aunoy's Wks. 557 A Thousand pretty Knacks..which she made with Fish-Bones and Shells, with Reeds and Rushes. 1825 LAMB Elia Ser. II. Superannuated Man, All the glittering and endless succession of knacks and gew~gaws. 1863 COWDEN CLARKE Shaks. Char. xiv. 360 The pedlar's knacks and gaudy trash [Wint. T. IV. iv.] absorb Mopsa's whole gloating vision. Check the third verse of the song, which lists some of the pedlar's kncks: pins, points, laces and gloves. * Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155 Box 91000 --
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
I would say it could serve as a nice double-entendre. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have just come across a definition of the word nacks that might be an appropriate definition for its use in the subject song. I don't recall that this possible use was touched upon though Donatella did have a suspicion about it. In any case the definition I've run across is thus; Nacks - A disease to which fowls are subject, in consequence of having taken too much hot food, such as warm porridge. It causes sever wheezing and BREATHLESSNESS (my capitalization - C.)... So then the nacks could be a metaphor for the kind of breathlessness experienced in a passionate encounter. Regards, Craig = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies
This old man, he played one, he played knick-knack on my thumb With a knick-knack patty whack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies At 08:51 AM 11/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: So then the nacks could be a metaphor for the kind of breathlessness experienced in a passionate encounter. No need to reach so far: 3. concr. An ingenious contrivance; a toy, trinket, trifle, http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?xrefed=OEDxrefword=knick-knackKNIC K-KNACK. ? Obs. 1540 HEYWOOD Four P.P. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 349 Needles, thread, thimble, shears, and all such knacks. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. IV. iii. 67 Why 'tis a cockle or a walnut-shell, A knacke, a toy, a tricke, a babies cap: Away with it. a1677 BARROW Serm. (1683) II. vii. 104 Springs, and wheels, and such mechanick knacks. 1715 tr. C'tess D'Aunoy's Wks. 557 A Thousand pretty Knacks..which she made with Fish-Bones and Shells, with Reeds and Rushes. 1825 LAMB Elia Ser. II. Superannuated Man, All the glittering and endless succession of knacks and gew~gaws. 1863 COWDEN CLARKE Shaks. Char. xiv. 360 The pedlar's knacks and gaudy trash [Wint. T. IV. iv.] absorb Mopsa's whole gloating vision. Check the third verse of the song, which lists some of the pedlar's kncks: pins, points, laces and gloves. * Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155 Box 91000 --
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies...Rob Spencer
Dear all, I haven't been following this thread in detail, however, I'm reminded of my first introduction to Dowland and the lute - a recording with this song on it - track one if I recall. It was LP with Robert Spencer though I cannot remember the tenor's name. Love to know whether it has been re-issued on CD. It was a beautiful recording... Best regards to all. Michael. bill sterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This old man, he played one, he played knick-knack on my thumb With a knick-knack patty whack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies At 08:51 AM 11/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: So then the nacks could be a metaphor for the kind of breathlessness experienced in a passionate encounter. No need to reach so far: 3. concr. An ingenious contrivance; a toy, trinket, trifle, KNIC K-KNACK. ? Obs. 1540 HEYWOOD Four P.P. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 349 Needles, thread, thimble, shears, and all such knacks. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. IV. iii. 67 Why 'tis a cockle or a walnut-shell, A knacke, a toy, a tricke, a babies cap: Away with it. a1677 BARROW Serm. (1683) II. vii. 104 Springs, and wheels, and such mechanick knacks. 1715 tr. C'tess D'Aunoy's Wks. 557 A Thousand pretty Knacks..which she made with Fish-Bones and Shells, with Reeds and Rushes. 1825 LAMB Elia Ser. II. Superannuated Man, All the glittering and endless succession of knacks and gew~gaws. 1863 COWDEN CLARKE Shaks. Char. xiv. 360 The pedlar's knacks and gaudy trash [Wint. T. IV. iv.] absorb Mopsa's whole gloating vision. Check the third verse of the song, which lists some of the pedlar's kncks: pins, points, laces and gloves. * Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155 Box 91000 -- - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --
