Re: Re: [LyX/master] Hebrew translation from Omer
On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 11:06:14PM -0500, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote: > On 12/24/23 15:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 05:55:55PM +0100, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote: > > > commit 63b4501efd67617a51564ceb397c9d958f0d2e17 > > > Author: Richard Kimberly Heck > > > Date: Sat Dec 23 13:21:41 2023 -0500 > > > > > > Hebrew translation from Omer > > > > > > po/he.po | 8826 > > > -- > > > 1 files changed, 3921 insertions(+), 4905 deletions(-) > > Does this compile for you? I get errors with both autotools and CMake. e.g., > > > >CMakeBuild/po/he.po:29896:21: invalid control sequence > > I've reverted it. I saw the same error. In any event, it turns out that two > people are working on this, and they're now attempting to merge their > efforts. Sounds good, thanks. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- lyx-devel mailing list lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org http://lists.lyx.org/mailman/listinfo/lyx-devel
Re: [LyX/master] Hebrew translation from Omer
On 12/24/23 15:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote: On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 05:55:55PM +0100, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote: commit 63b4501efd67617a51564ceb397c9d958f0d2e17 Author: Richard Kimberly Heck Date: Sat Dec 23 13:21:41 2023 -0500 Hebrew translation from Omer po/he.po | 8826 -- 1 files changed, 3921 insertions(+), 4905 deletions(-) Does this compile for you? I get errors with both autotools and CMake. e.g., CMakeBuild/po/he.po:29896:21: invalid control sequence I've reverted it. I saw the same error. In any event, it turns out that two people are working on this, and they're now attempting to merge their efforts. Riki -- lyx-devel mailing list lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org http://lists.lyx.org/mailman/listinfo/lyx-devel
Re: [LyX/master] Hebrew translation from Omer
On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 05:55:55PM +0100, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote: > commit 63b4501efd67617a51564ceb397c9d958f0d2e17 > Author: Richard Kimberly Heck > Date: Sat Dec 23 13:21:41 2023 -0500 > > Hebrew translation from Omer > > po/he.po | 8826 > -- > 1 files changed, 3921 insertions(+), 4905 deletions(-) Does this compile for you? I get errors with both autotools and CMake. e.g., CMakeBuild/po/he.po:29896:21: invalid control sequence Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- lyx-devel mailing list lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org http://lists.lyx.org/mailman/listinfo/lyx-devel
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Donnerstag, 16. Juli 2015 um 00:21:13, schrieb Guy Rutenberg guyrutenb...@gmail.com Hi, I've attached updated he.po translation file for the 2.1.x branch. It is based on the merge Kornel did of my 2.2dev translation and the old 2.1.3 translation. Thanks, Guy On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Kornel Benko kor...@lyx.org wrote: Am Freitag, 3. April 2015 um 11:47:27, schrieb Guy Rutenberg guyrutenb...@gmail.com On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Kornel Benko kor...@lyx.org wrote: Since I don't see any answer to this, I would be happy to update the translations. You can of course submit the .po file to this list. I've attached the .po file for the Hebrew translation in the 2.2dev branch. Thanks for your help. Happy holidays, Guy It cleanly compiles here, so I committed. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Donnerstag, 16. Juli 2015 um 00:21:13, schrieb Guy Rutenberg <guyrutenb...@gmail.com> > Hi, > > I've attached updated he.po translation file for the 2.1.x branch. It is > based on the merge Kornel did of my 2.2dev translation and the old 2.1.3 > translation. > > Thanks, > > Guy > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Kornel Benko <kor...@lyx.org> wrote: > > > Am Freitag, 3. April 2015 um 11:47:27, schrieb Guy Rutenberg < > > guyrutenb...@gmail.com> > > > On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Kornel Benko <kor...@lyx.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Since I don't see any answer to this, I would be happy to update the > > > > translations. > > > > > > > > You can of course submit the .po file to this list. > > > > > > > > > > I've attached the .po file for the Hebrew translation in the 2.2dev > > branch. > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > Happy holidays, > > > > > > Guy > > It cleanly compiles here, so I committed. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Freitag, 3. April 2015 um 11:47:27, schrieb Guy Rutenberg guyrutenb...@gmail.com On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Kornel Benko kor...@lyx.org wrote: Since I don't see any answer to this, I would be happy to update the translations. You can of course submit the .po file to this list. I've attached the .po file for the Hebrew translation in the 2.2dev branch. Thanks for your help. Happy holidays, Guy Thanks Guy. Committed. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Freitag, 3. April 2015 um 11:47:27, schrieb Guy Rutenberg <guyrutenb...@gmail.com> > On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Kornel Benko <kor...@lyx.org> wrote: > > > Since I don't see any answer to this, I would be happy to update the > > translations. > > > > You can of course submit the .po file to this list. > > > > I've attached the .po file for the Hebrew translation in the 2.2dev branch. > > Thanks for your help. > > Happy holidays, > > Guy Thanks Guy. Committed. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Samstag, 21. März 2015 um 18:40:50, schrieb Guy Rutenberg guyrutenb...@gmail.com Hi All, I've made some update to the Hebrew translation of LyX (in the 2.2dev branch) and translated ~500 strings. Whats the preferable way to submit the changes (patch? whole .po file?) and to whom? Thanks, Guy Since I don't see any answer to this, I would be happy to update the translations. You can of course submit the .po file to this list. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Samstag, 21. März 2015 um 18:40:50, schrieb Guy Rutenberg <guyrutenb...@gmail.com> > Hi All, > > I've made some update to the Hebrew translation of LyX (in the 2.2dev > branch) and translated ~500 strings. > > Whats the preferable way to submit the changes (patch? whole .po file?) and > to whom? > > Thanks, > > Guy Since I don't see any answer to this, I would be happy to update the translations. You can of course submit the .po file to this list. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Hebrew Translation
Hi All, I've made some update to the Hebrew translation of LyX (in the 2.2dev branch) and translated ~500 strings. Whats the preferable way to submit the changes (patch? whole .po file?) and to whom? Thanks, Guy
Hebrew Translation
Hi All, I've made some update to the Hebrew translation of LyX (in the 2.2dev branch) and translated ~500 strings. Whats the preferable way to submit the changes (patch? whole .po file?) and to whom? Thanks, Guy
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov Feldstern wrote:
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| | Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| |
| | | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically
detected by
| | | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be
English,
| | | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| | | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| | | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key
combinations to
| | | switch languages.
| |
| | I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| | (paraphrasing)
| | There is a difference between characters and language. You
wouldn't
| | expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing
latin would
| | you?
| | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| difference. In
| | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written
in a
| | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted
wrongfully.
| What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
|
| | Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
| | Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
Well, for that you have to use a latex package which supports this.
Ivritex doesn't, AFAIK. ArabTeX might be what you want, I'm not sure.
Can you do this with any arbitrary unicode character?
You can insert any unicode character into LyX these days.
For example - you can open a unicode test page in your web browser,
and paste the text into LyX. I have a LyX document with runes, chinese,
and klingon even. Latex hates it - of course.
Helge Hafting
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Helge Hafting wrote:
Dov Feldstern wrote:
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| Elazar Leibovich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| | Elazar Leibovich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| |
| | | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically
detected by
| | | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be
English,
| | | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| | | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| | | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key
combinations to
| | | switch languages.
| |
| | I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| | (paraphrasing)
| | There is a difference between characters and language. You
wouldn't
| | expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing
latin would
| | you?
| | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| difference. In
| | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written
in a
| | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted
wrongfully.
| What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
|
| | Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
| | Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
Well, for that you have to use a latex package which supports this.
Ivritex doesn't, AFAIK. ArabTeX might be what you want, I'm not sure.
Can you do this with any arbitrary unicode character?
You can insert any unicode character into LyX these days.
For example - you can open a unicode test page in your web browser,
and paste the text into LyX. I have a LyX document with runes, chinese,
and klingon even. Latex hates it - of course.
Helge Hafting
Ah, okay. Yes, I expect latex would... Well, in that case, you can
currently do the same with Hebrew as well, Lars, though it wouldn't be
of much use for latex output. But it may work for plaintext output,
maybe others...
If Elazar's suggestion is accepted, then the language would
automatically be switched to Hebrew when you type it in. Then you either
have to explicitly switch back to Norwegian (or whatever) --- which I'm
sure you would rather not have to do --- or else the language will
automatically switch back when you continue typing Norwegian, though how
that will happen I don't know, if Norwegian doesn't have a unique
character set (does it?)... It's not an insurmountable problem, but it
gets complicated, and I just don't see the point, Elazar...
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Helge Hafting wrote:
Dov Feldstern wrote:
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| > "Elazar Leibovich"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | > "Elazar Leibovich"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | >
| > | > | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically
detected by
| > | > | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be
English,
| > | > | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| > | > | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| > | > | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key
combinations to
| > | > | switch languages.
| > | >
| > | > I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| > | > (paraphrasing)
| > | > "There is a difference between characters and language. You
wouldn't
| > | > expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing
latin would
| > | > you?"
| > | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| > difference. In
| > | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written
in a
| > | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted
wrongfully.
| > What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| > character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
| >
| | Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
| | Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
Well, for that you have to use a latex package which supports this.
Ivritex doesn't, AFAIK. ArabTeX might be what you want, I'm not sure.
Can you do this with any arbitrary unicode character?
You can insert any unicode character into LyX these days.
For example - you can open a unicode test page in your web browser,
and paste the text into LyX. I have a LyX document with runes, chinese,
and klingon even. Latex hates it - of course.
Helge Hafting
Ah, okay. Yes, I expect latex would... Well, in that case, you can
currently do the same with Hebrew as well, Lars, though it wouldn't be
of much use for latex output. But it may work for plaintext output,
maybe others...
If Elazar's suggestion is accepted, then the language would
automatically be switched to Hebrew when you type it in. Then you either
have to explicitly switch back to Norwegian (or whatever) --- which I'm
sure you would rather not have to do --- or else the language will
automatically switch back when you continue typing Norwegian, though how
that will happen I don't know, if Norwegian doesn't have a unique
character set (does it?)... It's not an insurmountable problem, but it
gets complicated, and I just don't see the point, Elazar...
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov Feldstern wrote:
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | >
| > | > | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically
detected by
| > | > | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be
English,
| > | > | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| > | > | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| > | > | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key
combinations to
| > | > | switch languages.
| > | >
| > | > I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| > | > (paraphrasing)
| > | > "There is a difference between characters and language. You
wouldn't
| > | > expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing
latin would
| > | > you?"
| > | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| > difference. In
| > | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written
in a
| > | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted
wrongfully.
| > What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| > character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
| >
| | Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
| | Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
Well, for that you have to use a latex package which supports this.
Ivritex doesn't, AFAIK. ArabTeX might be what you want, I'm not sure.
Can you do this with any arbitrary unicode character?
You can insert any unicode character into LyX these days.
For example - you can open a unicode test page in your web browser,
and paste the text into LyX. I have a LyX document with runes, chinese,
and klingon even. Latex hates it - of course.
Helge Hafting
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On Wednesday 30 May 2007 06:45:44 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Or have a toggle-language lfun that toggles between all the languages used by the document. Of course, this means that one has to explicitly set the second language for the first time. But the feature would be language neutral. I agree. JMarc -- José Abílio
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Dov == Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dov The best thing would probably be to ask at installation what the Dov primary and what the secondary languages are to be, then to set Dov the default language to primary, and set in the key bindings: Dov F12 language secondary --- perhaps with a comment explaining Dov that it should be the secondary language. Or have a toggle-language lfun that toggles between all the languages used by the document. Of course, this means that one has to explicitly set the second language for the first time. But the feature would be language neutral. A secondary (fallback) language could be (optionnally) defined in the Preference Settings dialog. I know that I would use such a facility to easily switch between French and English. Abdel.
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | | switch languages. | | I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: | (paraphrasing) | There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't | expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would | you? | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex? Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other: Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to insert some Hebrew. In order to do that, you must (1) switch the language (locally, for the specific text you're typing, using the language hebrew command in the minibuffer) to Hebrew, and (2) make sure that the characters you insert are Hebrew characters (either by setting the keyboard to send Hebrew characters to LyX; how to do this is system-dependent; or by using LyX's builtin keymaps, which can be set up in the preferences). Doing only one or the other of those will result in broken LaTeX code (at least with the packages that LyX currently uses for Hebrew). That's what Elazar means, when he says you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a language different than Hebrew --- i.e., without switching the language to Hebrew. And that's why Elazar wants us to make sure that when a Hebrew character is typed in, the language is automatically set to Hebrew. This is not a problem if you use LyX's keymaps --- the keymap will only translate the characters to Hebrew based on the language. But if you switch the language externally to LyX, then that bypasses the keymap, and the Hebrew will be typed in as Hebrew regardless of the current language setting. I'm ambivalent about this. Certainly there's some sense in what Elazar is saying. And it could confuse a user that doesn't understand what's going on, types in Hebrew by switching the keyboard, and then gets latex which doesn't compile. OTOH, (a) this is only applicable to characters which are only associated with a single language (like Hebrew), but not with characters which are associated with many languages (like many European languages). (b) I think that implementing this kind of mechanism would not be trivial, and would introduce additional complexities into the code; and would also be costly at runtime, adding a new step to be performed for every keystroke (though I may be wrong on both counts); and (c) which I'm adamant about: this must not *replace* the current system. It is very important to be able to explicitly override the language if one wants too --- maybe not for the strongly-associated characters, but certainly for all others. Perhaps with some creative thinking we could work something out, but it should wait until after 1.5.0. Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| | Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| |
| | | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by
| | | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English,
| | | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| | | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| | | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to
| | | switch languages.
| |
| | I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| | (paraphrasing)
| | There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't
| | expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would
| | you?
| | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| difference. In
| | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a
| | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully.
| What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
|
|
| Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
|
| Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
--
Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| | Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| |
| | | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by
| | | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English,
| | | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| | | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| | | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to
| | | switch languages.
| |
| | I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| | (paraphrasing)
| | There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't
| | expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would
| | you?
| | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| difference. In
| | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a
| | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully.
| What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
|
|
| Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
|
| Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
Well, for that you have to use a latex package which supports this.
Ivritex doesn't, AFAIK. ArabTeX might be what you want, I'm not sure.
Can you do this with any arbitrary unicode character?
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On Wednesday 30 May 2007 06:45:44 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Or have a toggle-language lfun that toggles between all the languages > used by the document. Of course, this means that one has to explicitly > set the second language for the first time. But the feature would be > language neutral. I agree. > JMarc -- José Abílio
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: "Dov" == Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Dov> The best thing would probably be to ask at installation what the Dov> primary and what the secondary languages are to be, then to set Dov> the default language to "primary", and set in the key bindings: Dov> F12 "language secondary" --- perhaps with a comment explaining Dov> that it should be the secondary language. Or have a toggle-language lfun that toggles between all the languages used by the document. Of course, this means that one has to explicitly set the second language for the first time. But the feature would be language neutral. A secondary (fallback) language could be (optionnally) defined in the Preference Settings dialog. I know that I would use such a facility to easily switch between French and English. Abdel.
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | > | > | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | > | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | > | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | > | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | > | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | > | switch languages. | > | > I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: | > (paraphrasing) | > "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't | > expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would | > you?" | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex? Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other: Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to insert some Hebrew. In order to do that, you must (1) switch the language (locally, for the specific text you're typing, using the "language hebrew" command in the minibuffer) to Hebrew, and (2) make sure that the characters you insert are Hebrew characters (either by setting the keyboard to send Hebrew characters to LyX; how to do this is system-dependent; or by using LyX's builtin keymaps, which can be set up in the preferences). Doing only one or the other of those will result in broken LaTeX code (at least with the packages that LyX currently uses for Hebrew). That's what Elazar means, when he says "you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a language different than Hebrew" --- i.e., without switching the language to Hebrew. And that's why Elazar wants us to make sure that when a Hebrew character is typed in, the language is automatically set to Hebrew. This is not a problem if you use LyX's keymaps --- the keymap will only translate the characters to Hebrew based on the language. But if you switch the language externally to LyX, then that bypasses the keymap, and the Hebrew will be typed in as Hebrew regardless of the current language setting. I'm ambivalent about this. Certainly there's some sense in what Elazar is saying. And it could confuse a user that doesn't understand what's going on, types in Hebrew by switching the keyboard, and then gets latex which doesn't compile. OTOH, (a) this is only applicable to characters which are only associated with a single language (like Hebrew), but not with characters which are associated with many languages (like many European languages). (b) I think that implementing this kind of mechanism would not be trivial, and would introduce additional complexities into the code; and would also be costly at runtime, adding a new step to be performed for every keystroke (though I may be wrong on both counts); and (c) which I'm adamant about: this must not *replace* the current system. It is very important to be able to explicitly override the language if one wants too --- maybe not for the "strongly-associated" characters, but certainly for all others. Perhaps with some creative thinking we could work something out, but it should wait until after 1.5.0. Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | >
| > | > | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by
| > | > | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English,
| > | > | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| > | > | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| > | > | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to
| > | > | switch languages.
| > | >
| > | > I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| > | > (paraphrasing)
| > | > "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't
| > | > expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would
| > | > you?"
| > | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| > difference. In
| > | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a
| > | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully.
| > What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| > character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
| >
|
| Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
|
| Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
--
Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
| > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > | >
| > | > | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by
| > | > | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English,
| > | > | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral
| > | > | characters will be the same language of the paragraph.
| > | > | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to
| > | > | switch languages.
| > | >
| > | > I think I said in some other mail some hours ago:
| > | > (paraphrasing)
| > | > "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't
| > | > expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would
| > | > you?"
| > | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a
| > difference. In
| > | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a
| > | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully.
| > What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew
| > character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex?
| >
|
| Well, I think you're misunderstanding each other:
|
| Certainly, you may be writing a document in Norwegian, and want to
| insert some Hebrew.
Hmm da hmm... but no that is not what I want. I don't want to insert
some hebrew, just a character from the hebrew alphabet.
If to get this hebrew character output/rendered by latex it mean that
this single char is enclosed in some \lang{hebrew} is an export
detail. I am still not using any hebrew in my document.
Well, for that you have to use a latex package which supports this.
Ivritex doesn't, AFAIK. ArabTeX might be what you want, I'm not sure.
Can you do this with any arbitrary unicode character?
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar Leibovich wrote: Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral characters will be the same language of the paragraph. That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to switch languages. I _think_ I can implement that with a little time, and a little (*cough* *cough*) help from the memebers here. Dov, what do you say? I say: No! :) Abdel has been proposing this for a long time, but I feel quite strongly against it. I'll try to explain again why: First of all, I don't see any problem with the current arrangement. A user is never forced to learn new key combinations. This is LyX, not Word: if you don't like the key bindings, you can change them to whatever you want (more or less). Secondly, I think there is a lot of value to having the keymap built-in to LyX. That means that you don't need to rely on keyboard support for Hebrew (in our case) on the machine you're working on. Admittedly, the machine you regularly work on probably does not present a problem, but if you're working, for example, on machines in a computer lab in some university abroad, you can't take that for granted... Finally, and most importantly: one of the delights for me of working on bidi documents in LyX has been precisely the fact that I have explicit control over the language. Having explicit control allows you to do things that you just can't do with a plain old bidi algorithm, which what you're suggesting basically amounts to (though it would need to be much more complex than what you describe above; with regard to neutrals, for example). I have recently started collecting examples of such texts. I hereby challenge anyone to produce in Word or OpenOffice (or any other editor --- it would be interesting to see what results we get; feel free to try in HTML as well, I doubt that it's possible without using the bidi override commands) the attached document, without mangling the logical order of the text typed in. (Sorry, Hebrew needed for this...). If you don't understand what the problem is, just try it... (I hope I don't eat my words --- but I'm having trouble trying to reproduce it in OO ;) ) Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like , or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISHchange language through F12, change langENGLISH to: ENGLISHchange language through alt-shift, change langENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! That's why I like LyX's explicit language control :) . Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | switch languages. I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: (paraphrasing) There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would you? You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. While 'A' belongs either to English and French, \aleph(_0:-) is always Hebrew. Giving the user the possibility to type non-hebrew Hebrew letters is not good, since he'll never wish to do that. What do you say, Dov? -- Lgb
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich wrote: Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like , or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISHchange language through F12, change langENGLISH to: ENGLISHchange language through alt-shift, change langENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! FWIW I agree with you Elazar but this is no surprise as Dov said ;-) For me there shouldn't be any need to change the language to properly edit and typeset a mixed RTL-LTR document. AFAIS, there is abolutely no need to write Hebrew in LTR mode and there is no need to write Latin based languages in RTL mode. So IMHO, we should do that automatically based on the unicode codepoint. I am sure this is achievable and that the user experience will be great. But this is way too late to change anything in 1.5. I propose to implement that (optionally), together with visual navigation (also optionally) in 1.6. Abdel.
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Abdelrazak Younes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar Leibovich wrote: Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like , or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISHchange language through F12, change langENGLISH to: ENGLISHchange language through alt-shift, change langENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! FWIW I agree with you Elazar but this is no surprise as Dov said ;-) For me there shouldn't be any need to change the language to properly edit and typeset a mixed RTL-LTR document. AFAIS, there is abolutely no need to write Hebrew in LTR mode and there is no need to write Latin based languages in RTL mode. So IMHO, we should do that automatically based on the unicode codepoint. I am sure this is achievable and that the user experience will be great. Thanks! I also think that way. Moreover, we should force the language to be English in math insets, even for our friends in French, after all, it's not that you say \sum á_í insted of \sum a_i in French... But this is way too late to change anything in 1.5. I propose to implement that (optionally), together with visual navigation (also optionally) in 1.6. FWIW I also think so. We made a pretty good job solving some crucial RTL deficiency in the last moment for 1.5. The cursor-stuck problem was a real blocker. Abdel.
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar == Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Elazar Thanks! I also think that way. Moreover, we should force the Elazar language to be English in math insets, even for our friends in Elazar French, after all, it's not that you say \sum á_í insted of Elazar \sum a_i in French... There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a matter of using accents. JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar == Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Elazar Thanks! I also think that way. Moreover, we should force the Elazar language to be English in math insets, even for our friends in Elazar French, after all, it's not that you say \sum á_í insted of Elazar \sum a_i in French... There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a matter of using accents. If this is the case, it shouldn't allow me to type Hebrew in it, and currently it does. JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar == Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a matter of using accents. Elazar If this is the case, it shouldn't allow me to type Hebrew in Elazar it, and currently it does. And does it typeset correctly? JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
In lyx it does. As an output it wouldn't be typesetted as RTL hebrew, but maybe as Hebrew characters. Anyhow there's no reason anyone would want it to be there. On 5/29/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar == Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a matter of using accents. Elazar If this is the case, it shouldn't allow me to type Hebrew in Elazar it, and currently it does. And does it typeset correctly? JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar == Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Elazar In lyx it does. As an output it wouldn't be typesetted as RTL Elazar hebrew, but maybe as Hebrew characters. Anyhow there's no Elazar reason anyone would want it to be there. Well, people do strange things :) I know some people would be upset if they could not enter accented characters (not that I would do it myself). JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar == Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Elazar In lyx it does. As an output it wouldn't be typesetted as RTL Elazar hebrew, but maybe as Hebrew characters. Anyhow there's no Elazar reason anyone would want it to be there. Well, people do strange things :) I know some people would be upset if they could not enter accented characters (not that I would do it myself). They can always use the text mode (twice C-m). Well, for hebrew the situation is even worse, as the directionality of the words would not be correct. But whatever. The customer is always correct. JMarc
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich wrote: On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | switch languages. I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: (paraphrasing) There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would you? You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. While 'A' belongs either to English and French, \aleph(_0:-) is always Hebrew. Giving the user the possibility to type non-hebrew Hebrew letters is not good, since he'll never wish to do that. What do you say, Dov? Well, this I agree with a little more. Not so much that he'll never wish to do that (I don't want to limit the user's wishes ;) ), but in this case the latex just won't compile --- so LyX is not the bottleneck (though conceivably, using a different backend for Hebrew, such as ArabTeX, this may not be true, I just don't know; anyhow, I doubt that LyX supports that today). So here's a suggestion: First of all, we *must* keep the feature of giving the user full control (like F12 today). However, in the specific case of Hebrew (or more generally, any script which is unique to a given language --- or rather, which will only compile in a single language) --- the language could be switched automatically --- using the same mechanism used to switch languages today(!), but behind the scenes --- to that specific language if a character belonging to that language is typed in. For neutrals, the current language is to be kept (same as now, really). This should be fairly easy to implement: check the language of each key being typed in, and if it belongs to a specific language, first set the language to that, and then insert it. But this is certainly going to be complex (well, maybe not so complex), and will add a certain amount of overhead to each and every keystroke (a lookup of the language, and a language switch if the key belongs to a specific language) --- which I don't think is what we want to be doing right now, with all the complaints about slowness. And this would not affect only RTL, but each and every keystroke in any language! And I just don't see the point, I'm not sure what problem we're trying to solve by this... There's also one important note to keep in mind: you must have the language information before going to latex, because latex needs the language information in order to compile (see above). So the information has to come form somewhere. You could, perhaps, forgo setting the language information as it is typed in, but then you would need to do that (using the bidi algorithm) during the generation of the latex output. But this way, you would lose the feedback in the GUI regarding languages, which is very helpful. But again, I just don't see the point... Dov
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Elazar Leibovich wrote: Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like , or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISHchange language through F12, change langENGLISH to: ENGLISHchange language through alt-shift, change langENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! FWIW I agree with you Elazar but this is no surprise as Dov said ;-) For me there shouldn't be any need to change the language to properly edit and typeset a mixed RTL-LTR document. AFAIS, there is abolutely no need to write Hebrew in LTR mode and there is no need to write Latin based languages in RTL mode. So IMHO, we should do that automatically based on the unicode codepoint. I am sure this is achievable and that the user experience will be great. :) . Remember, LaTeX must have the language information (but that could, as you say, be achieved from the codepoints; although as Andre' pointed out, this will not work for all languages, so you'd need to start having two parallel mechanisms for language determination). Secondly, you must have the option for override --- even if only just for the neutrals. I think Elazar will agree with that after the challenge ;) I sent. But this is way too late to change anything in 1.5. I propose to implement that (optionally), together with visual navigation (also optionally) in 1.6. +1 But yes, let's continue this in a few weeks. Abdel. Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
1) I don't use Hebrew localization (I think that's what the po files are?), but I trust Ran. 2) I didn't read through it carefully, but it looks great! 3) Great! Thanks, I put it in. regards Uwe
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Ran Rutenberg wrote: Hi, Dov Feldstern writes: Actually, F11 is not needed either. The language command is a toggle, so just using F12 would toggle between the primary language (whatever it is) and Hebrew. I don't know why F11 is needed; I asked Ran about it, and he said that sometimes F12 didn't work well, but didn't provide any further details. I have never had problems with it. So I would say, the localized Hebrew bindings should look like this: \bind_file cua \bind F12 language hebrew And that's it. If there really are problems with the toggle not always working, that should be fixed. And of course, until then anyone is free to change their bindings as they please. But I think that the official policy should be to use only F12, which is at least *supposed* to work; and of course, this avoids the problem JMarc is talking about, of being English-centric. The F12 key doesn't work if the default language is Hebrew and you try to change the language for the first time in the document. You actually try to switch off Hebrew without specifying an alternative. Indeed, when the default language is English the F12 works fine. The F11 key is used for the first language change, when the default language is Hebrew. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg Okay, I can confirm this. I guess that language toggles between and the default language, so when the default language is hebrew, language hebrew has no effect. For now, it's okay with me to commit the bindings with both F12 language hebrew and F11 language english. Although JMarc's point (why English?) is still valid... The best thing would probably be to ask at installation what the primary and what the secondary languages are to be, then to set the default language to primary, and set in the key bindings: F12 language secondary --- perhaps with a comment explaining that it should be the secondary language. Uwe, I believe the installer is your department: would this be possible? Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | | switch languages. | | I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: | (paraphrasing) | There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't | expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would | you? | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex? -- Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov == Dov Feldstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dov The best thing would probably be to ask at installation what the Dov primary and what the secondary languages are to be, then to set Dov the default language to primary, and set in the key bindings: Dov F12 language secondary --- perhaps with a comment explaining Dov that it should be the secondary language. Or have a toggle-language lfun that toggles between all the languages used by the document. Of course, this means that one has to explicitly set the second language for the first time. But the feature would be language neutral. JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Elazar Leibovich wrote: > Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by > the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, > Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral > characters will be the same language of the paragraph. > That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to > switch languages. > I _think_ I can implement that with a little time, and a little > (*cough* *cough*) help from the memebers here. > Dov, what do you say? I say: No! :) Abdel has been proposing this for a long time, but I feel quite strongly against it. I'll try to explain again why: First of all, I don't see any problem with the current arrangement. A user is never "forced to learn new key combinations". This is LyX, not Word: if you don't like the key bindings, you can change them to whatever you want (more or less). Secondly, I think there is a lot of value to having the keymap built-in to LyX. That means that you don't need to rely on keyboard support for Hebrew (in our case) on the machine you're working on. Admittedly, the machine you regularly work on probably does not present a problem, but if you're working, for example, on machines in a computer lab in some university abroad, you can't take that for granted... Finally, and most importantly: one of the delights for me of working on bidi documents in LyX has been precisely the fact that I have explicit control over the language. Having explicit control allows you to do things that you just can't do with a plain old bidi algorithm, which what you're suggesting basically amounts to (though it would need to be much more complex than what you describe above; with regard to neutrals, for example). I have recently started collecting examples of such texts. I hereby challenge anyone to produce in Word or OpenOffice (or any other editor --- it would be interesting to see what results we get; feel free to try in HTML as well, I doubt that it's possible without using the bidi override commands) the attached document, without mangling the logical order of the text typed in. (Sorry, Hebrew needed for this...). If you don't understand what the problem is, just try it... (I hope I don't eat my words --- but I'm having trouble trying to reproduce it in OO ;) ) Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like ," or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISH, ENGLISH to: ENGLISH, ENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! That's why I like LyX's explicit language control :) . Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | switch languages. I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: (paraphrasing) "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would you?" You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. While 'A' belongs either to English and French, \aleph(_0:-) is always Hebrew. Giving the user the possibility to type non-hebrew Hebrew letters is not good, since he'll never wish to do that. What do you say, Dov? -- Lgb
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich wrote: Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like ," or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISH, ENGLISH to: ENGLISH, ENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! FWIW I agree with you Elazar but this is no surprise as Dov said ;-) For me there shouldn't be any need to change the language to properly edit and typeset a mixed RTL-LTR document. AFAIS, there is abolutely no need to write Hebrew in LTR mode and there is no need to write Latin based languages in RTL mode. So IMHO, we should do that automatically based on the unicode codepoint. I am sure this is achievable and that the user experience will be great. But this is way too late to change anything in 1.5. I propose to implement that (optionally), together with visual navigation (also optionally) in 1.6. Abdel.
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Abdelrazak Younes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Elazar Leibovich wrote: > Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. > In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters > like ," or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the > neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is > trivially translating from Lyx's > ENGLISH, ENGLISH > to: > ENGLISH, ENGLISH > Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. > The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes > it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I > once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the > directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I > had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge > to fix). > The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! FWIW I agree with you Elazar but this is no surprise as Dov said ;-) For me there shouldn't be any need to change the language to properly edit and typeset a mixed RTL-LTR document. AFAIS, there is abolutely no need to write Hebrew in LTR mode and there is no need to write Latin based languages in RTL mode. So IMHO, we should do that automatically based on the unicode codepoint. I am sure this is achievable and that the user experience will be great. Thanks! I also think that way. Moreover, we should force the language to be English in math insets, even for our friends in French, after all, it's not that you say \sum á_í insted of \sum a_i in French... But this is way too late to change anything in 1.5. I propose to implement that (optionally), together with visual navigation (also optionally) in 1.6. FWIW I also think so. We made a pretty good job solving some crucial RTL deficiency in the last moment for 1.5. The cursor-stuck problem was a real blocker. Abdel.
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
> "Elazar" == Elazar Leibovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Elazar> Thanks! I also think that way. Moreover, we should force the Elazar> language to be English in math insets, even for our friends in Elazar> French, after all, it's not that you say \sum á_í insted of Elazar> \sum a_i in French... There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a matter of using accents. JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Elazar" == Elazar Leibovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Elazar> Thanks! I also think that way. Moreover, we should force the Elazar> language to be English in math insets, even for our friends in Elazar> French, after all, it's not that you say \sum á_í insted of Elazar> \sum a_i in French... There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a matter of using accents. If this is the case, it shouldn't allow me to type Hebrew in it, and currently it does. JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
> "Elazar" == Elazar Leibovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a >> matter of using accents. Elazar> If this is the case, it shouldn't allow me to type Hebrew in Elazar> it, and currently it does. And does it typeset correctly? JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
In lyx it does. As an output it wouldn't be typesetted as RTL hebrew, but maybe as Hebrew characters. Anyhow there's no reason anyone would want it to be there. On 5/29/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Elazar" == Elazar Leibovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> There is no language in math insets... And writing french is not a >> matter of using accents. Elazar> If this is the case, it shouldn't allow me to type Hebrew in Elazar> it, and currently it does. And does it typeset correctly? JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
> "Elazar" == Elazar Leibovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Elazar> In lyx it does. As an output it wouldn't be typesetted as RTL Elazar> hebrew, but maybe as Hebrew characters. Anyhow there's no Elazar> reason anyone would want it to be there. Well, people do strange things :) I know some people would be upset if they could not enter accented characters (not that I would do it myself). JMarc
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On 5/29/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Elazar" == Elazar Leibovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Elazar> In lyx it does. As an output it wouldn't be typesetted as RTL Elazar> hebrew, but maybe as Hebrew characters. Anyhow there's no Elazar> reason anyone would want it to be there. Well, people do strange things :) I know some people would be upset if they could not enter accented characters (not that I would do it myself). They can always use the text mode (twice C-m). Well, for hebrew the situation is even worse, as the directionality of the words would not be correct. But whatever. The customer is always correct. JMarc
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich wrote: On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | switch languages. I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: (paraphrasing) "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would you?" You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. While 'A' belongs either to English and French, \aleph(_0:-) is always Hebrew. Giving the user the possibility to type non-hebrew Hebrew letters is not good, since he'll never wish to do that. What do you say, Dov? Well, this I agree with a little more. Not so much that he'll never wish to do that (I don't want to limit the user's wishes ;) ), but in this case the latex just won't compile --- so LyX is not the bottleneck (though conceivably, using a different backend for Hebrew, such as ArabTeX, this may not be true, I just don't know; anyhow, I doubt that LyX supports that today). So here's a suggestion: First of all, we *must* keep the feature of giving the user full control (like F12 today). However, in the specific case of Hebrew (or more generally, any script which is unique to a given language --- or rather, which will only compile in a single language) --- the language could be switched automatically --- using the same mechanism used to switch languages today(!), but behind the scenes --- to that specific language if a character belonging to that language is typed in. For neutrals, the current language is to be kept (same as now, really). This should be fairly easy to implement: check the language of each key being typed in, and if it belongs to a specific language, first set the language to that, and then insert it. But this is certainly going to be complex (well, maybe not so complex), and will add a certain amount of overhead to each and every keystroke (a lookup of the language, and a language switch if the key belongs to a specific language) --- which I don't think is what we want to be doing right now, with all the complaints about slowness. And this would not affect only RTL, but each and every keystroke in any language! And I just don't see the point, I'm not sure what "problem" we're trying to solve by this... There's also one important note to keep in mind: you must have the language information before going to latex, because latex needs the language information in order to compile (see above). So the information has to come form somewhere. You could, perhaps, forgo setting the language information as it is typed in, but then you would need to do that (using the bidi algorithm) during the generation of the latex output. But this way, you would lose the feedback in the GUI regarding languages, which is very helpful. But again, I just don't see the point... Dov
Re: [challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Elazar Leibovich wrote: Well, have your words for lunch dude. Bon apetite. In your example all English words are separated by neutral characters like ," or space. In MS word, one controls the directionality of the neutral characters by the input language. So that typing your text is trivially translating from Lyx's ENGLISH, ENGLISH to: ENGLISH, ENGLISH Try that at work. It's extremely easy to reproduce. The bad thing about it, is that setting directionality to space, makes it different from other spaces, and thus causing a great confusion. (I once imported English plaintext to MS word, which made the directionality of all spaces to Rtl, while the entire text was LtR. I had no idea how all this funny things happened, and it was a challenge to fix). The same disadvantages goes for Lyx! FWIW I agree with you Elazar but this is no surprise as Dov said ;-) For me there shouldn't be any need to change the language to properly edit and typeset a mixed RTL-LTR document. AFAIS, there is abolutely no need to write Hebrew in LTR mode and there is no need to write Latin based languages in RTL mode. So IMHO, we should do that automatically based on the unicode codepoint. I am sure this is achievable and that the user experience will be great. :) . Remember, LaTeX must have the language information (but that could, as you say, be achieved from the codepoints; although as Andre' pointed out, this will not work for all languages, so you'd need to start having two parallel mechanisms for language determination). Secondly, you must have the option for override --- even if only just for the neutrals. I think Elazar will agree with that after the "challenge" ;) I sent. But this is way too late to change anything in 1.5. I propose to implement that (optionally), together with visual navigation (also optionally) in 1.6. +1 But yes, let's continue this in a few weeks. Abdel. Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
> 1) I don't use Hebrew localization (I think that's what the po files are?), but I trust Ran. > > 2) I didn't read through it carefully, but it looks great! > > 3) Great! Thanks, I put it in. regards Uwe
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Ran Rutenberg wrote: Hi, Dov Feldstern writes: Actually, F11 is not needed either. The language command is a toggle, so just using F12 >would toggle between the primary language (whatever it is) and Hebrew. I don't know why >F11 is needed; I asked Ran about it, and he said that sometimes F12 didn't work well, but >didn't provide any further details. I have never had problems with it. So I would say, the >localized Hebrew bindings should look like this: \bind_file cua \bind "F12" "language hebrew" And that's it. If there really are problems with the toggle not always working, that should be >fixed. And of course, until then anyone is free to change their bindings as they please. But I >think that the "official policy" should be to use only F12, which is at least *supposed* to work; >and of course, this avoids the problem JMarc is talking about, of being English-centric. The "F12" key doesn't work if the default language is Hebrew and you try to change the language for the first time in the document. You actually try to switch off Hebrew without specifying an alternative. Indeed, when the default language is English the F12 works fine. The F11 key is used for the first language change, when the default language is Hebrew. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg Okay, I can confirm this. I guess that "language " toggles between and the default language, so when the default language is hebrew, "language hebrew" has no effect. For now, it's okay with me to commit the bindings with both F12 "language hebrew" and F11 "language english". Although JMarc's point (why English?) is still valid... The best thing would probably be to ask at installation what the primary and what the secondary languages are to be, then to set the default language to "primary", and set in the key bindings: F12 "language secondary" --- perhaps with a comment explaining that it should be the secondary language. Uwe, I believe the installer is your department: would this be possible? Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
"Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | On 28 May 2007 23:07:36 +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | > "Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | > | > | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | > | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | > | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | > | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | > | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | > | switch languages. | > | > I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: | > (paraphrasing) | > "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't | > expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would | > you?" | | You did and it is true generally. However, there is a difference. In | hebrew you'll never ever wish to have hebrew characters written in a | language different than Hebrew. It'll just be outputted wrongfully. What about norwegian? Could it be that I'd like to write a hebrew character there? as a reference to something? As a linguist f.ex? -- Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
> "Dov" == Dov Feldstern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Dov> The best thing would probably be to ask at installation what the Dov> primary and what the secondary languages are to be, then to set Dov> the default language to "primary", and set in the key bindings: Dov> F12 "language secondary" --- perhaps with a comment explaining Dov> that it should be the secondary language. Or have a toggle-language lfun that toggles between all the languages used by the document. Of course, this means that one has to explicitly set the second language for the first time. But the feature would be language neutral. JMarc
Updates to the Hebrew translation
Ran wrote: Hi, I've made I few updates: 1) Updated he.po file: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhubVUwTVE9PQ 2) Updated Intro: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpakl0R0ZtUUUwTVE9PQ 3) Updated Splash: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklqVEhENlEwTVE9PQ 4) I've asked before about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I was given a positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, here is the file again: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg --- Can this be committed? regards Uwe
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | 4) I've asked before about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I | was given a positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, | here is the file again: | http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ This 4. one puzzles me a bit. What is localized in this file? -- Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On Monday 28 May 2007 16:30:55 Uwe Stöhr wrote: Can this be committed? If Hebrew developers agree on this sure. :-) regards Uwe -- José Abílio
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Lars == Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lars Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | 4) I've asked before Lars about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I | was given a Lars positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, | here Lars is the file again: | Lars http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ Lars This 4. one puzzles me a bit. What is localized in this file? I suspect it is only the last two lines \bind F12 language hebrew \bind F11 language english If it is the case, the file should read [some useful comments] \bind_file cua \bind F12 language hebrew \bind F11 language english But it would not help a lot people writing in french/hebrew, for example. What is the goal? If it is switching between the languages of the document, it may be useful to implement that as an lfun. JMarc
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral characters will be the same language of the paragraph. That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to switch languages. I _think_ I can implement that with a little time, and a little (*cough* *cough*) help from the memebers here. Dov, what do you say? On 5/28/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lars == Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lars Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | 4) I've asked before Lars about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I | was given a Lars positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, | here Lars is the file again: | Lars http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ Lars This 4. one puzzles me a bit. What is localized in this file? I suspect it is only the last two lines \bind F12 language hebrew \bind F11 language english If it is the case, the file should read [some useful comments] \bind_file cua \bind F12 language hebrew \bind F11 language english But it would not help a lot people writing in french/hebrew, for example. What is the goal? If it is switching between the languages of the document, it may be useful to implement that as an lfun. JMarc
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | switch languages. I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: (paraphrasing) There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would you? -- Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I suspect it is only the last two lines \bind F12 language hebrew \bind F11 language english If it is the case, the file should read [some useful comments] \bind_file cua \bind F12 language hebrew \bind F11 language english I believe this is correct --- it's only the last two lines. So yes, we should only use an include (that's the way I've always done it locally, based on Dekel's suggestions). But it would not help a lot people writing in french/hebrew, for example. What is the goal? If it is switching between the languages of the document, it may be useful to implement that as an lfun. JMarc Actually, F11 is not needed either. The language command is a toggle, so just using F12 would toggle between the primary language (whatever it is) and Hebrew. I don't know why F11 is needed; I asked Ran about it, and he said that sometimes F12 didn't work well, but didn't provide any further details. I have never had problems with it. So I would say, the localized Hebrew bindings should look like this: \bind_file cua \bind F12 language hebrew And that's it. If there really are problems with the toggle not always working, that should be fixed. And of course, until then anyone is free to change their bindings as they please. But I think that the official policy should be to use only F12, which is at least *supposed* to work; and of course, this avoids the problem JMarc is talking about, of being English-centric. Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov, Elazar, can I commit the other patches from Ran until you agreed to a proper bind file?: 1) Updated he.po file: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhubVUwTVE9PQ 2) Updated Intro: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpakl0R0ZtUUUwTVE9PQ 3) Updated Splash: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklqVEhENlEwTVE9PQ regards Uwe
[challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich wrote: Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral characters will be the same language of the paragraph. That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to switch languages. I _think_ I can implement that with a little time, and a little (*cough* *cough*) help from the memebers here. Dov, what do you say? I say: No! :) Abdel has been proposing this for a long time, but I feel quite strongly against it. I'll try to explain again why: First of all, I don't see any problem with the current arrangement. A user is never forced to learn new key combinations. This is LyX, not Word: if you don't like the key bindings, you can change them to whatever you want (more or less). Secondly, I think there is a lot of value to having the keymap built-in to LyX. That means that you don't need to rely on keyboard support for Hebrew (in our case) on the machine you're working on. Admittedly, the machine you regularly work on probably does not present a problem, but if you're working, for example, on machines in a computer lab in some university abroad, you can't take that for granted... Finally, and most importantly: one of the delights for me of working on bidi documents in LyX has been precisely the fact that I have explicit control over the language. Having explicit control allows you to do things that you just can't do with a plain old bidi algorithm, which what you're suggesting basically amounts to (though it would need to be much more complex than what you describe above; with regard to neutrals, for example). I have recently started collecting examples of such texts. I hereby challenge anyone to produce in Word or OpenOffice (or any other editor --- it would be interesting to see what results we get; feel free to try in HTML as well, I doubt that it's possible without using the bidi override commands) the attached document, without mangling the logical order of the text typed in. (Sorry, Hebrew needed for this...). If you don't understand what the problem is, just try it... (I hope I don't eat my words --- but I'm having trouble trying to reproduce it in OO ;) ) That's why I like LyX's explicit language control :) . Dov bidi-challenge.lyx Description: application/lyx bidi-challenge.dvi Description: TeX dvi file
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Dov, Elazar, can I commit the other patches from Ran until you agreed to a proper bind file?: 1) Updated he.po file: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhubVUwTVE9PQ 2) Updated Intro: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpakl0R0ZtUUUwTVE9PQ 3) Updated Splash: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklqVEhENlEwTVE9PQ regards Uwe 1) I don't use Hebrew localization (I think that's what the po files are?), but I trust Ran. If you really want me to test it first --- how do I do that? 2) I didn't read through it carefully, but it looks great! 3) Great! Thanks, Uwe!
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Hi, Dov Feldstern writes: Actually, F11 is not needed either. The language command is a toggle, so just using F12 would toggle between the primary language (whatever it is) and Hebrew. I don't know why F11 is needed; I asked Ran about it, and he said that sometimes F12 didn't work well, but didn't provide any further details. I have never had problems with it. So I would say, the localized Hebrew bindings should look like this: \bind_file cua \bind F12 language hebrew And that's it. If there really are problems with the toggle not always working, that should be fixed. And of course, until then anyone is free to change their bindings as they please. But I think that the official policy should be to use only F12, which is at least *supposed* to work; and of course, this avoids the problem JMarc is talking about, of being English-centric. The F12 key doesn't work if the default language is Hebrew and you try to change the language for the first time in the document. You actually try to switch off Hebrew without specifying an alternative. Indeed, when the default language is English the F12 works fine. The F11 key is used for the first language change, when the default language is Hebrew. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Hi, You can test the Hebrew he.po file by replacing this file with the old one in the po directory in the source. Then you should compile lyx again and install it (If forget to do make install the Hebrew won't work). Later, you can start lyx in Hebrew by LC_ALL=he_IL lyx. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg
Updates to the Hebrew translation
Ran wrote: Hi, I've made I few updates: 1) Updated he.po file: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhubVUwTVE9PQ 2) Updated Intro: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpakl0R0ZtUUUwTVE9PQ 3) Updated Splash: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklqVEhENlEwTVE9PQ 4) I've asked before about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I was given a positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, here is the file again: http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg --- Can this be committed? regards Uwe
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | 4) I've asked before about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I | was given a positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, | here is the file again: | http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ This 4. one puzzles me a bit. What is localized in this file? -- Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
On Monday 28 May 2007 16:30:55 Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Can this be committed? If Hebrew developers agree on this sure. :-) > regards Uwe -- José Abílio
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
> "Lars" == Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Lars> Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | 4) I've asked before Lars> about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I | was given a Lars> positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, | here Lars> is the file again: | Lars> http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ Lars> This 4. one puzzles me a bit. What is localized in this file? I suspect it is only the last two lines \bind "F12" "language hebrew" \bind "F11" "language english" If it is the case, the file should read [some useful comments] \bind_file cua \bind "F12" "language hebrew" \bind "F11" "language english" But it would not help a lot people writing in french/hebrew, for example. What is the goal? If it is switching between the languages of the document, it may be useful to implement that as an lfun. JMarc
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral characters will be the same language of the paragraph. That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to switch languages. I _think_ I can implement that with a little time, and a little (*cough* *cough*) help from the memebers here. Dov, what do you say? On 5/28/07, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Lars" == Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Lars> Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | 4) I've asked before Lars> about having a localized Hebrew bind file, and I | was given a Lars> positive answer. Alas, the file was never committed. So, | here Lars> is the file again: | Lars> http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhRYTgwTVE9PQ Lars> This 4. one puzzles me a bit. What is localized in this file? I suspect it is only the last two lines \bind "F12" "language hebrew" \bind "F11" "language english" If it is the case, the file should read [some useful comments] \bind_file cua \bind "F12" "language hebrew" \bind "F11" "language english" But it would not help a lot people writing in french/hebrew, for example. What is the goal? If it is switching between the languages of the document, it may be useful to implement that as an lfun. JMarc
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
"Elazar Leibovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by | the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, | Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral | characters will be the same language of the paragraph. | That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to | switch languages. I think I said in some other mail some hours ago: (paraphrasing) "There is a difference between characters and language. You wouldn't expect all latin characters to mean that you are writing latin would you?" -- Lgb
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I suspect it is only the last two lines \bind "F12" "language hebrew" \bind "F11" "language english" If it is the case, the file should read [some useful comments] \bind_file cua \bind "F12" "language hebrew" \bind "F11" "language english" I believe this is correct --- it's only the last two lines. So yes, we should only use an include (that's the way I've always done it locally, based on Dekel's suggestions). But it would not help a lot people writing in french/hebrew, for example. What is the goal? If it is switching between the languages of the document, it may be useful to implement that as an lfun. JMarc Actually, F11 is not needed either. The language command is a toggle, so just using F12 would toggle between the primary language (whatever it is) and Hebrew. I don't know why F11 is needed; I asked Ran about it, and he said that sometimes F12 didn't work well, but didn't provide any further details. I have never had problems with it. So I would say, the localized Hebrew bindings should look like this: \bind_file cua \bind "F12" "language hebrew" And that's it. If there really are problems with the toggle not always working, that should be fixed. And of course, until then anyone is free to change their bindings as they please. But I think that the "official policy" should be to use only F12, which is at least *supposed* to work; and of course, this avoids the problem JMarc is talking about, of being English-centric. Dov
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Dov, Elazar, can I commit the other patches from Ran until you agreed to a proper bind file?: > 1) Updated he.po file: > http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhubVUwTVE9PQ > > 2) Updated Intro: > http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpakl0R0ZtUUUwTVE9PQ > > 3) Updated Splash: > http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklqVEhENlEwTVE9PQ regards Uwe
[challenge] Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Elazar Leibovich wrote: Isn't that wise that the language will be automatically detected by the input-language. ie, English letters will always be English, Hebrew/Arabic letters will always be Hebrew/Arabic and neutral characters will be the same language of the paragraph. That way, the user won't be forced to learn new key combinations to switch languages. I _think_ I can implement that with a little time, and a little (*cough* *cough*) help from the memebers here. Dov, what do you say? I say: No! :) Abdel has been proposing this for a long time, but I feel quite strongly against it. I'll try to explain again why: First of all, I don't see any problem with the current arrangement. A user is never "forced to learn new key combinations". This is LyX, not Word: if you don't like the key bindings, you can change them to whatever you want (more or less). Secondly, I think there is a lot of value to having the keymap built-in to LyX. That means that you don't need to rely on keyboard support for Hebrew (in our case) on the machine you're working on. Admittedly, the machine you regularly work on probably does not present a problem, but if you're working, for example, on machines in a computer lab in some university abroad, you can't take that for granted... Finally, and most importantly: one of the delights for me of working on bidi documents in LyX has been precisely the fact that I have explicit control over the language. Having explicit control allows you to do things that you just can't do with a plain old bidi algorithm, which what you're suggesting basically amounts to (though it would need to be much more complex than what you describe above; with regard to neutrals, for example). I have recently started collecting examples of such texts. I hereby challenge anyone to produce in Word or OpenOffice (or any other editor --- it would be interesting to see what results we get; feel free to try in HTML as well, I doubt that it's possible without using the bidi override commands) the attached document, without mangling the logical order of the text typed in. (Sorry, Hebrew needed for this...). If you don't understand what the problem is, just try it... (I hope I don't eat my words --- but I'm having trouble trying to reproduce it in OO ;) ) That's why I like LyX's explicit language control :) . Dov bidi-challenge.lyx Description: application/lyx bidi-challenge.dvi Description: TeX dvi file
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Dov, Elazar, can I commit the other patches from Ran until you agreed to a proper bind file?: > 1) Updated he.po file: > http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklxeFhubVUwTVE9PQ > > 2) Updated Intro: > http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpakl0R0ZtUUUwTVE9PQ > > 3) Updated Splash: > http://www.yousendit.com/download/UVJpaklqVEhENlEwTVE9PQ regards Uwe 1) I don't use Hebrew localization (I think that's what the po files are?), but I trust Ran. If you really want me to test it first --- how do I do that? 2) I didn't read through it carefully, but it looks great! 3) Great! Thanks, Uwe!
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Hi, Dov Feldstern writes: Actually, F11 is not needed either. The language command is a toggle, so just using F12 >would toggle between the primary language (whatever it is) and Hebrew. I don't know why >F11 is needed; I asked Ran about it, and he said that sometimes F12 didn't work well, but >didn't provide any further details. I have never had problems with it. So I would say, the >localized Hebrew bindings should look like this: \bind_file cua \bind "F12" "language hebrew" And that's it. If there really are problems with the toggle not always working, that should be >fixed. And of course, until then anyone is free to change their bindings as they please. But I >think that the "official policy" should be to use only F12, which is at least *supposed* to work; >and of course, this avoids the problem JMarc is talking about, of being English-centric. The "F12" key doesn't work if the default language is Hebrew and you try to change the language for the first time in the document. You actually try to switch off Hebrew without specifying an alternative. Indeed, when the default language is English the F12 works fine. The F11 key is used for the first language change, when the default language is Hebrew. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg
Re: Updates to the Hebrew translation
Hi, You can test the Hebrew he.po file by replacing this file with the old one in the po directory in the source. Then you should compile lyx again and install it (If forget to do "make install" the Hebrew won't work). Later, you can start lyx in Hebrew by "LC_ALL=he_IL lyx". Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg
The Hebrew translation of the LyX documents
Dear sirs, I have recently contacted Mr. Tzafrir Cohen, in order to help with the Hebrew translation of the document, which is quite old (the translation is dated back to 2002 and obviously the program had been updated since). Mr. Cohen wrote to me back that he does not maintain the Hebrew translation anymore. I would be more than happy to assist with the translation, and therefore, I would be glad I you can contact Mr. Cohen and if he is willing, I will be able to replace him as the contact for the Hebrew language (and therefore become the head translator into Hebrew. I tried to contact the documentation team but no answer came back. I would like to mention that Hebrew is my native-language and I'm fluent in English as well. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Hebrew translation of the LyX documents
Ran == Ran Rutenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ran Dear sirs, I have recently contacted Mr. Tzafrir Cohen, in order Ran to help with the Hebrew translation of the document, which is Ran quite old (the translation is dated back to 2002 and obviously Ran the program had been updated since). Mr. Cohen wrote to me back Ran that he does not maintain the Hebrew translation anymore. Hello, We would be very happy to see new things happening to the hebrew translations. There are actually 3 things you could help us with: - translate the interface (po/he.po) - translate the documentation (we only have intro and tutorial now) - tell us what works and what does not work in current RtL-related support. Nobody in the team is qualified to this, unfortunately. Ran I would be more than happy to assist with the translation, and Ran therefore, I would be glad I you can contact Mr. Cohen and if he Ran is willing, I will be able to replace him as the contact for the Ran Hebrew language (and therefore become the head translator into Ran Hebrew. I think there is no problem to have you as the new lead. If Tzafrir Cohen told you he is not active anymore, the position is open! Ran I tried to contact the documentation team but no answer came Ran back. Yes, I saw your message, but was a bit busy. Ran I would like to mention that Hebrew is my native-language and I'm Ran fluent in English as well. This is very good. I propose that you start from version 1.4.x, since 1.5 is really for later. You can either grab the documentation and interface localization from 1.4.3 source, or grab latest svn with svn co svn://svn.lyx.org/lyx/lyx-devel/branches/BRANCH_1_4_X lyx-1.4.x Please do not hesitate to ask for help if you need to. JMarc
The Hebrew translation of the LyX documents
Dear sirs, I have recently contacted Mr. Tzafrir Cohen, in order to help with the Hebrew translation of the document, which is quite old (the translation is dated back to 2002 and obviously the program had been updated since). Mr. Cohen wrote to me back that he does not maintain the Hebrew translation anymore. I would be more than happy to assist with the translation, and therefore, I would be glad I you can contact Mr. Cohen and if he is willing, I will be able to replace him as the contact for the Hebrew language (and therefore become the head translator into Hebrew. I tried to contact the documentation team but no answer came back. I would like to mention that Hebrew is my native-language and I'm fluent in English as well. Sincerely, Ran Rutenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Hebrew translation of the LyX documents
>>>>> "Ran" == Ran Rutenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Ran> Dear sirs, I have recently contacted Mr. Tzafrir Cohen, in order Ran> to help with the Hebrew translation of the document, which is Ran> quite old (the translation is dated back to 2002 and obviously Ran> the program had been updated since). Mr. Cohen wrote to me back Ran> that he does not maintain the Hebrew translation anymore. Hello, We would be very happy to see new things happening to the hebrew translations. There are actually 3 things you could help us with: - translate the interface (po/he.po) - translate the documentation (we only have intro and tutorial now) - tell us what works and what does not work in current RtL-related support. Nobody in the team is qualified to this, unfortunately. Ran> I would be more than happy to assist with the translation, and Ran> therefore, I would be glad I you can contact Mr. Cohen and if he Ran> is willing, I will be able to replace him as the contact for the Ran> Hebrew language (and therefore become the head translator into Ran> Hebrew. I think there is no problem to have you as the new lead. If Tzafrir Cohen told you he is not active anymore, the position is open! Ran> I tried to contact the documentation team but no answer came Ran> back. Yes, I saw your message, but was a bit busy. Ran> I would like to mention that Hebrew is my native-language and I'm Ran> fluent in English as well. This is very good. I propose that you start from version 1.4.x, since 1.5 is really for later. You can either grab the documentation and interface localization from 1.4.3 source, or grab latest svn with svn co svn://svn.lyx.org/lyx/lyx-devel/branches/BRANCH_1_4_X lyx-1.4.x Please do not hesitate to ask for help if you need to. JMarc
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Freitag, 8. September 2006 20:09 schrieb Guy Rutenberg: hi, 1) LyX works for pretty good in hebrew in version 1.4.1 (i haven't tested it yet on 1.4.3 and 1.5) but many hebrew users complain that it's pretty hard configuring LyX for use with hebrew (especialy keyboards as LyX doesn't use for some reason the keyboard layouts of the Xserver). There some more problems with hebrew (mostly gui stuff where hebrew is display as gibrrish) which I guess will be fixed when lyx moves to Unicode (as i understood it should happen in lyx 1.5). It is the goal to fix these problems, yes. Unfortunately none of the current developers knows right-to-left languages such as hebrew well enough. Therefore we will need some help. It would be nice if you could try out 1.5 after the basic unicode stuff is finished, and report problems. 2) I didn't talk about the localization of the gui (but i think i will take a look it to see if i can help). I want to help translating the LyX documantation which comes with every lyx installation such as the user-guide and etc. I see two existing hebrew documents: he_Intro.lyx and he_Tutorial.lyx. I guess it would be a good idea to start with these and update them to match the english version. Then you can translate the other documents (big task). Unfortunately there is no automatic procedure like gettext for that, you have to go through the documents side by side. I suggest that you work on the 1.4 version, since 1.5 is pretty much broken right now, and the documentation is still almost identical. Since you already contacted the former translator you can simply work right away. Please send the updated documents to the list (zipped if they are too big), we'll put them into the official sources then. Before you start, please send a message to the list stating that you give permission to licence your contributions to LyX under the GNU General Public Licence, version 2 or later. Otherwise we won't be able to include your work. Georg PS: Jean-Marc, please correct me if I said anything wrong WRT 1.4.
Re: Hebrew Translation
Am Freitag, 8. September 2006 20:09 schrieb Guy Rutenberg: > hi, > > 1) LyX works for pretty good in hebrew in version 1.4.1 (i haven't tested it > yet on 1.4.3 and 1.5) but many hebrew users complain that it's pretty hard > configuring LyX for use with hebrew (especialy keyboards as LyX doesn't use > for some reason the keyboard layouts of the Xserver). There some more > problems with hebrew (mostly gui stuff where hebrew is display as gibrrish) > which I guess will be fixed when lyx moves to Unicode (as i understood it > should happen in lyx 1.5). It is the goal to fix these problems, yes. Unfortunately none of the current developers knows right-to-left languages such as hebrew well enough. Therefore we will need some help. It would be nice if you could try out 1.5 after the basic unicode stuff is finished, and report problems. > 2) I didn't talk about the localization of the gui (but i think i will take > a look it to see if i can help). I want to help translating the LyX > documantation which comes with every lyx installation such as the user-guide > and etc. I see two existing hebrew documents: he_Intro.lyx and he_Tutorial.lyx. I guess it would be a good idea to start with these and update them to match the english version. Then you can translate the other documents (big task). Unfortunately there is no automatic procedure like gettext for that, you have to go through the documents side by side. I suggest that you work on the 1.4 version, since 1.5 is pretty much broken right now, and the documentation is still almost identical. Since you already contacted the former translator you can simply work right away. Please send the updated documents to the list (zipped if they are too big), we'll put them into the official sources then. Before you start, please send a message to the list stating that you give permission to licence your contributions to LyX under the GNU General Public Licence, version 2 or later. Otherwise we won't be able to include your work. Georg PS: Jean-Marc, please correct me if I said anything wrong WRT 1.4.
Re: Hebrew Translation
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 08:44:08AM +0300, Guy Rutenberg wrote: hi, I would like to help with the hebrew translation of the LyX documentation. I contacted Tzafrir Cohen (which is listed as the contact for hebrew) but he told me that he doesn't activly maintain the hebrew translation. As there is no active contact for hebrew translation i don't know how can i help with the translation. I would thank you if you could explain to me how can i send new translation for the documentation and if I can be the hebrew tranlation contact man. Best Regards, Guy Rutenberg First of all, does LyX work properly in Hebrew? Separate questions for 1.4.3 and 1.5svn... Localization is done using the Gnu gettext system, which has its own documentation. - Martin pgp7nZZiU8duU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Hebrew Translation
hi, 1) LyX works for pretty good in hebrew in version 1.4.1 (i haven't tested it yet on 1.4.3 and 1.5) but many hebrew users complain that it's pretty hard configuring LyX for use with hebrew (especialy keyboards as LyX doesn't use for some reason the keyboard layouts of the Xserver). There some more problems with hebrew (mostly gui stuff where hebrew is display as gibrrish) which I guess will be fixed when lyx moves to Unicode (as i understood it should happen in lyx 1.5). 2) I didn't talk about the localization of the gui (but i think i will take a look it to see if i can help). I want to help translating the LyX documantation which comes with every lyx installation such as the user-guide and etc. Guy Rutenberg On 9/8/06, Martin Vermeer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 08:44:08AM +0300, Guy Rutenberg wrote: hi, I would like to help with the hebrew translation of the LyX documentation. I contacted Tzafrir Cohen (which is listed as the contact for hebrew) but he told me that he doesn't activly maintain the hebrew translation. As there is no active contact for hebrew translation i don't know how can i help with the translation. I would thank you if you could explain to me how can i send new translation for the documentation and if I can be the hebrew tranlation contact man. Best Regards, Guy Rutenberg First of all, does LyX work properly in Hebrew? Separate questions for 1.4.3 and 1.5svn... Localization is done using the Gnu gettext system, which has its own documentation. - Martin
Re: Hebrew Translation
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 08:44:08AM +0300, Guy Rutenberg wrote: > hi, > > I would like to help with the hebrew translation of the LyX documentation. I > contacted Tzafrir Cohen (which is listed as the contact for hebrew) but he > told me that he doesn't activly maintain the hebrew translation. As there is > no active contact for hebrew translation i don't know how can i help with > the translation. I would thank you if you could explain to me how can i send > new translation for the documentation and if I can be the hebrew tranlation > contact man. > > Best Regards, > Guy Rutenberg First of all, does LyX work properly in Hebrew? Separate questions for 1.4.3 and 1.5svn... Localization is done using the Gnu gettext system, which has its own documentation. - Martin pgp7nZZiU8duU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Hebrew Translation
hi, 1) LyX works for pretty good in hebrew in version 1.4.1 (i haven't tested it yet on 1.4.3 and 1.5) but many hebrew users complain that it's pretty hard configuring LyX for use with hebrew (especialy keyboards as LyX doesn't use for some reason the keyboard layouts of the Xserver). There some more problems with hebrew (mostly gui stuff where hebrew is display as gibrrish) which I guess will be fixed when lyx moves to Unicode (as i understood it should happen in lyx 1.5). 2) I didn't talk about the localization of the gui (but i think i will take a look it to see if i can help). I want to help translating the LyX documantation which comes with every lyx installation such as the user-guide and etc. Guy Rutenberg On 9/8/06, Martin Vermeer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 08:44:08AM +0300, Guy Rutenberg wrote: > hi, > > I would like to help with the hebrew translation of the LyX documentation. I > contacted Tzafrir Cohen (which is listed as the contact for hebrew) but he > told me that he doesn't activly maintain the hebrew translation. As there is > no active contact for hebrew translation i don't know how can i help with > the translation. I would thank you if you could explain to me how can i send > new translation for the documentation and if I can be the hebrew tranlation > contact man. > > Best Regards, > Guy Rutenberg First of all, does LyX work properly in Hebrew? Separate questions for 1.4.3 and 1.5svn... Localization is done using the Gnu gettext system, which has its own documentation. - Martin
Hebrew Translation
hi, I would like to help with the hebrew translation of the LyX documentation. I contacted Tzafrir Cohen (which is listed as the contact for hebrew) but he told me that he doesn't activly maintain the hebrew translation. As there is no active contact for hebrew translation i don't know how can i help with the translation. I would thank you if you could explain to me how can i send new translation for the documentation and if I can be the hebrew tranlation contact man. Best Regards, Guy Rutenberg
Hebrew Translation
hi, I would like to help with the hebrew translation of the LyX documentation. I contacted Tzafrir Cohen (which is listed as the contact for hebrew) but he told me that he doesn't activly maintain the hebrew translation. As there is no active contact for hebrew translation i don't know how can i help with the translation. I would thank you if you could explain to me how can i send new translation for the documentation and if I can be the hebrew tranlation contact man. Best Regards, Guy Rutenberg
